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Old 2012-02-29, 14:39   Link #28001
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
I think Yasu was born male. Even the name Lion that Kinzo chose is rather masculine. At least compared to the names he chose for Eva and Rosa. And then there's the business with the man from 19 years ago, Natsuhi kept referring to him as a man so the baby must have been born male. Perhaps the accident altered the baby's gender somehow.
I wouldn't take things from EP5 alone as important. There is the theory that "End of the Golden Witch" is mostly made by Witch Hunters.

If we say Ikuko=Yasu, it would make sense, that after EP4 Ikuko didn't want to create a story for him, because Tohya still "couldn't remember the promise". It must be frustrating, when someone forgets a promise 2 times and after the 4 games she gave up and only watched how Tohya tried to solve a witch-hunter forgery.

The death of Beatrice represented the decreasing interest in the witch-culprit theory in the world. So when they published Tohya's first own work, "Dawn of the Golden Witch", the interest increased again, thus Beatrice was "reborn".

Also if we apply Ikuko=Yasu, then Ikuko as her ideal life would mean, she WANTS to be female. So i guess the argument that she hates being a female is wrong.


But... since Yasuda probably cannot get children anyway, this discussion is kind of irrelevant.

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-02-29 at 17:20.
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Old 2012-02-29, 14:49   Link #28002
Toku
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, it works no matter which side ("fantasy" vs. "reality") you base things on. If Yasu didn't dream up Featherine, couldn't Featherine still have dreamed up Yasu? For example, Yasu could be Featherine taken human form. She would be yet unaware of her own true identity as Featherine, but this would be an arrangement that bored-of-living-because-I-already-know-everything Featherine would desire. And Ikuko would be the "awakened" version of Featherine, yet still in human form.

Something like that. It's not too hard to justify.
There are many theories you could make about this, but my theory is that Featherine is not Yasuda or a "mode" of Yasuda in the first place, even though Yasuda is Ikuko.

What I'm saying is that, just like how "Hachijo Tohya" is the name that they publish their stories under, EP6!Tohya is sort of like an avatar for both of them, and Featherine is born from both of them combined as they continue to write more and more mysteries.

Beatrice's purpose was mainly just to wait for Battler to return. However, Featherine has a much grander purpose. She exists as a realization of Yasuda's greatest dream, was born from more than one person, and has lived for a much longer span of time than Beatrice ever did. It's only natural that she would be far more powerful.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yasu appears to be uncomfortable with a female gender image, however. Wouldn't that suggest that he's not comfortable self-identifying as female? After all, it doesn't appear to have been a choice.

For that matter, Battler strikes me as trying too hard himself...
I didn't get the impression that she's uncomfortable with it, aside from the possible expectation to bear children. Could you explain? After all, her only male "mode" is not developed well at all.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
But Natsuhi might not have known the childs gender. hell yasu might not even be the child of 19 years ago .
I'd also like to add that the Chiru gameboards are weird, so "Yasuda is male" may be something that is only used in EP5, especially since there is absolutely no real indication of Yasuda's gender, so it's not like you'd be breaking a Red by changing it, even if they're using Beatrice's gameboard.
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Old 2012-02-29, 19:42   Link #28003
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Not much... unless Battler is gay, but Yasu doesn't realize this and creates "Beatrice" to love him, setting the stage for a needlessly elaborate "love letter" which Battler claims wasn't necessary.[/b]?
That's so hard to deny actually.
Battler's own relationship with girls (going from considering what they like to be mostly nonsense, and that tho everyone claims he made many cry, he vehemently denies so) seems to indulge toward that possibility at the very least. He likes "a girl like Jessica" (who basically used to be a sort of super tomboy according to him, so basically what he likes is a boy...) as well. Also, Tohya and Ikuko aren't dating or married as far as we know.

But the main problem is his obcession with breast. Obviously you could say that the Battler as we see in arc 1 who tries to fondle Shannon is actually as Yasu imagined him. Actually if I forget for one second that she's the writer (at least the writer's piece), Yasu seems an extremly bad judge of character going by arc 7.

Also, arc 6 put a huge emphasis on the idea of romance that cannot be attained with only love alone, and gave out reasons that weren't just furniture/fake personality based. I have no idea of how close minded or open minded 1986 Japan was as far as homosexuality goes, but "overall" her despair about a body that cannot love (because the body is sexually aroused by members of the same gender) might certainly be one of the ways one can react to their own homosexuality (I am not saying Yasu is right about that, btw).

There's also Shannon's breast. If Yasu's a male all the way, then he has to have fake breast when playing the role of a girl. If Yasu is a girl, then she's only faking having "bigger breast" when she's basically flat, making her a lot more vain IMO (and overall making the whole senseless enough that I wonder why it was even here as it is).

And there is also Lion, who is hard to see as not at least having an homosexual tendency (wether or not it would be pursued later on) and to be somewhat a pervert when it comes to this too. I don't even think Yasu and Lion are the same person, but they fit the same role so they are related enough for it to be extremly vain if Ryuukishi's given personality of Lion has absolutely nothing to do with Yasu (actually even supporter of Yasu = Lion havent yet made any significant link between Lion and Yasu's personalities).

But if we're to accept that, might as well go further in insane ideas no?
So what if Shannon orriginally wasn't even Shannon (but always Kanon) but because he got a crush on Battler he began to play being a girl, with the help of Jessica. This could have two funny unexpected result: getting closer to Jessica as Kanon might've led to her falling for him, and he continued to pretend being a girl in the hope that Battler eventually comes back, but didn't expect George to fall for him pretenting to be a girl.

Going to add an insane twist, but what if Kinzo's love affair has always been with Genji and always will be. That the whole Beatrice story is basically a setup because it's preventing people from considering GenjiXKinzo, which would almost be obvious without her in the picture.

And as a final argument that is going to be really hard to counter, is that as far as Ryuukishi is concerned, we all know Umineko was more then anything a love letter aimed at BT.

Also, doesn't it make so much more sense as to why Beatrice created such a riddle that not everyone could figure out? Already just telling someone you love them might end up hurting you badly, telling that to someone of the same gender could make this peak a lot.

So yeah, I can't believe it, but at this point I'd need someone to do a really good job at destroying these points to think differently.

Edit : Keep thinking of new things.
If we suppose Kanon is a male, well everyone from Fukuin we've heard about were girls (and it seems to even imply there's only girls there, because being a girl wasn't ever mentioned as a crittera for working for the Ushiromiya). So a man raised in a world of girls, and then sent to an island where nearly only girls are there on a daily basis (except Kinzo and Genji I guess, and eventually Gohda), could explain a few things. If I go by arc 7, Shannon began as an imaginary friend for Yasu. What if he basically had a sort of complex over being a male over his environment and thought that by pretending to be a girl all the way, he'd save himself from that complex (but then ended up falling in love with Battler and developping a new complex) ?

Also random and mostly unrelated, but I always had a really hard time to think of Erika as being actually a girl, and even more of that age. Middle-aged man who has accumulated a lot of frustrations and thinks of himself as better then others seems to fit Erika well enough.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-02-29 at 20:06.
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Old 2012-02-29, 19:43   Link #28004
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*sighs* I'm late to the party... -_-

My theories:

For the Rokkenjima incident
I think Yasuda was aiming at staging a mystery game.

I've no idea if this mystery game was supposed to have real murders in it or if she merely wanted to end it with her suicide/death of all her personas.

I think however she had in mind something more than just 'let's have fun'. This doesn't necessary mean that she actually managed to carry on her plan (either because something got in between or because she had second thoughts about it).

She however created a setting in which the Rokkenjima incident could take place, probably generating paranoia, greed and suspicions among the adults (some where bribed to be her accomplices in the murder game and might have acted in a manner the other viewed as suspicious). I wonder if she also incidentally created discord between the cousins which might have made matter worse.

So, even if Yasuda didn't shoot a single soul, she might have been the triggering factor in people's dying.

I like to think Eva's diary contained the truth as Eva saw it, so not a perfected depiction but a depiction filtered by her own ideas.
In her own depiction of the truth she wasn't the sole responsible of the tragedy, Ange's parents were likely involved and possibly other people as well.
Also, in her own depiction, everybody except herself died.

How, and I think her own depiction of the truth was traumatic for Ange and she merely decided to reject it.

I fear however that we aren't supposed to guess what exactly happened on Rokkenjima more clearly than this... (even though I like to make assorted theories according to recurring themes used in the games)

Funny enough I'm not sure if Battler survived or if the magic ending was merely Ange's wishful thinking. Considering Ange has 4 possible endings (dying on Rokkenjima [Ep 4], jumping from the skyscraper and dying [EP 8] and the trick and magic ending) I'm not really sure if Ange's future from after Eva's death exists or is in another gameboard.
I like to think Yasuda survived, in addition to the reasons other people mentioned, I'd like to say we've all Ep 7 rambling about how Beato was killed by her maker/creator/whatever and this didn't mean that said maker/creator/whatever died as well so I tend to consider the scene of Beato jumping of the boat as merely Beato's character being killed/abandoned by Yasuda.

About Kanon's memories

I think those memories belong to Yasuda... but she simply ignored them for a while since she was upset for various reasons.
In EP 6 Kanon is sort of at peace with himself so he can remember also the nice sides of other people.
After all someone MUST have taught yasuda how to shoot though there's no mention about this in all of Yasuda's memories, it just came up on Kanon's memories.

About 'Pieces can only be moved in patterns that follows their personality'

I think this is influenced by a person's perception of that piece's personality. It's sort of like writing a fanfic, you'll try to keep them in character but your interpretation of their character might vary from the one of another fan.
In case of real people if you know them well it gets easier to keep them 'in character'.
For Bern, who has no love for the characters, having them killing people is 'in character' so she's not forcing them to do anything they can't do as long as they act according to their own possibilities.
For example she might say Maria killed everyone using poison, but she would slip into 'out of character' real if she were to say Maria strangled everyone with her awesome strenght or that she murdered everyone with her awesome martial arts techniques because those are things Maria can't do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazar View Post
We could argue that Yasu sent a credit card + key to everyone in the island (That makes around 18 pepole) BUT, she didn't send a credit card+key to either Rudolf or Kyrie.
Ange got a letter, however, her parents didn't.

Another reason that makes me think that Yasu is alive is this:

EP 1 and 2 were both wrote by Beatrice.
We are led to believe that they were wrote before October 4th of 1986.

However, that is impossible. Why?

Because Ange DOESN'T appear as a character in those 2 tales.
Beatrice had no way of knowing that Ange would be abscent that day. After all, she had stomach ache. How would Beato know that someone would have stomach ache that day?

Not only that.
Battler has been abscent for 6 years in a row, and yet, Beatrice knew that he would come that day.
Actually the letter was addressed to Rudolf but he was already dead and so Ange opened it.

Quote:
After losing my entire family, I was depressed.
...But it was a really strange thing to come in the mail, so I had a faint memory of it left.
It was a strange letter, which I had no memory of sending, but which had me as the sender.
I forget the destination address, but the person it had been sent to was Ushiromiya Rudolf.
It was my father.
I remember how disturbed I was when I got a letter I thought was from Father, opened it up, and found a key and a card that I didn't really understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Old response is old. Part of MY problem with it is that we're given no indication of Yasu's existence beforehand, so to me it felt like he was just coming with this whole new person out of nowhere, who was entirely separate from the Shannon and Kanon I'd spent 6 Episodes coping with. Even now, whenever Yasu is mentioned (and I say 'Yasu' for convenience sake), I really just mean "Shannon", the same ol' Shannon we've been seeing since EP1. <_<
Well, Yasu is nothing else but Yasuda Sayo's... let's call it real will so she's Shannon as well as Shannon is basically Yasuda Sayo's role in the Ushiromiya's family.
Beatrice instead likely represent Yasuda Sayo's deepest wishes.
Likely they're two parts of the whole even through Umineko present them as separate entities...

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-03-01 at 13:00.
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Old 2012-02-29, 20:47   Link #28005
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
T
Also random and mostly unrelated, but I always had a really hard time to think of Erika as being actually a girl, and even more of that age. Middle-aged man who has accumulated a lot of frustrations and thinks of himself as better then others seems to fit Erika well enough.
Well, about Erika, I think she is supposed to be a parody of Poirot and other detectives in crime novel, so she acts a bit like Poirot, that is, a middle-aged man who thinks himself is better than other people. But the personality of Erika, on another hand, could very well be fit in teenager frustration of self-image and a longing to be acknowledged and accepted, so I don't think Erika is a problem here.

Asides from that, I think your argument is valid, and there are a lot of point I have been doubted since ep 6. The novel changed its approach abrubtly after the death of BT, and it is supposed to be a love letter, there may be a chance that Ryukishi felt that: "as the one who supposed to receive my message is dead, it's not worthwhile to disclose it anymore." I just don't like to touch this argument, because it's a bit disrespect for the death. On the other hand, it might be just a thematic choice, as miscommunication and difficulty in communication seemed to be a major point of Umineko.

I always think (like most people), that Yasu is born male, but have a female sexuality. In that case she is not homosexual, but more a case of trans. The main problem Yasu seemed to think she has (at least reflected in the stories) is not that she felt in love with somebody she's not supposed to do, but her body could not fathom that love, which did not rule out the possibility that she's female all the way and just lost the ability to bear children or have sex. But then again, you will not go all the way to hide her true gender if she is female all along. That, similar to the catbox, seemed to be where Yasu could hide in her dream and argue "there should be at least a kakera where I am a female."
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Old 2012-02-29, 21:25   Link #28006
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
I think Yasu was born male. Even the name Lion that Kinzo chose is rather masculine. At least compared to the names he chose for Eva and Rosa. And then there's the business with the man from 19 years ago, Natsuhi kept referring to him as a man so the baby must have been born male. Perhaps the accident altered the baby's gender somehow.
1.Natsuhi herself in unsure of the caller's gender. She defaults to male, IIRC, after the speaker calls himself her son at some point,and when Genji announces a strangers arrival, she is relieved it's not a man. I have no idea how this played out in Japanse.
2. 'Lion' was a pretty clever way to throw the name into androgyny. I remember before an official romanization was given, it was pondered whether it'd be given as the overtly masculine "Leon", or the overtly feminine "Lyon".

Quote:
Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
But Natsuhi might not have known the childs gender. hell yasu might not even be the child of 19 years ago .
1.There's actually been alot of discussion about how nothing effectively changes, even if Yasu was some random japanese child Genji plucked off the street one night...

Spoiler for speculation of who's gay:

1. Eh, I think you're grasping at a few straws with Battler. Just because he isn't a mack daddy like Rudolf doesn't mean he doesn't like female attention - we're pretty much told he does, in his interactions with the Stakes and some of the TIPS. And when it comes to Tohya, the way it's translated, at least, seems to imply that his relationship with Hachijou is at least kinda romantic. Ange says "Are you married?", and the response is "No, but we've been together for a really long time."
2. We're also told more or less directly that Fukuin does provide male servants. Kanon being the only one we see may have been his idea of a hint (or something), and Shannon's breasts, I'd say, almost HAD to exist to serve as a red herring. Of course, he probably should've told DEEN not to give her those obnoxiously heaving, sloshing milk puppies.
3. It's long been my theory that Genji has always had a manor homolust for Kinzo that wasn't reciprocal, which explains a lot, in my opinion. The argument for it being reciprocal is very weak.
4. When did Lion have any homosexual leanings? He's literally genderless (of course, I use male pronouns out of what I think, and for convenience), and supposed to be androgynous to the core. Also, it's a huge plot point that Lion's personality is nothing like Yasu's. Pinch ALL the asses.
5. You're right, Erika doesnt act like a 14 year old schoolgirl. As others have said, she's a parody (shout out? Callback? Lampshade Hanger?) of Classical detectives, who in my very limited readings, do have an air of being dicks about them.

Also, I can ONLY assume that in the real world, Erika Furudo was a literal Nancy Drew, clue finding, neighborhood mystery solving uber bitch, so when the public read "End' and 'Dawn', her neighbors and relatives were all "Yeah, sounds just like that crazy bitch."
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Old 2012-02-29, 21:55   Link #28007
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, I can ONLY assume that in the real world, Erika Furudo was a literal Nancy Drew, clue finding, neighborhood mystery solving uber bitch, so when the public read "End' and 'Dawn', her neighbors and relatives were all "Yeah, sounds just like that crazy bitch."
Actually, I have a really hard time believing that Tohya would write Erika like that, considering how he rails against disgracing the dead in other contexts. I originally thought that EP6 was a standalone work, but maybe he invited the asshole witch hunters responsible for EP5 to play a rematch with him, and they're responsible for Erika's screwed up characterization.

I can kind of easily picture him playing on a forum with Moetrice as a sock puppet account.
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Old 2012-03-01, 00:12   Link #28008
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Regarding Battler's breast obsession and whatnot and the crackpot homosexuality theory (although it's certainly possible based on certain extratextual suspicions I have)...

It's called intentional overcompensation. Battler plays the exaggerated pervert to deflect suspicion. He is, after all, not actually as perverted as he sometimes acts. Also there's the whole possibility of it being an in-joke/Yasu's assumption in writing his character/etc. Of course this is no proof of anything and it really doesn't matter.

Having said that... one could posit the existence of the overtly sexual figure of Beatrice (as in, ep1-4 Meta-Beatrice) as a meta-feminine force which seeks to dominate Battler sexually against his own desire and will. After all, whenever Battler submits to or is overpowered by a woman in the Meta-World, he's exposed and humiliated (note the parallels between Beatrice in ep2 and Erika in ep6). For Battler, intellectual subjugation goes hand in hand with submission to possession by a female figure, while intellectual liberty is embodied in his relationship with an individual who may well also be male.

...of course I'm probably just talking out of my ass at this point.
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Old 2012-03-01, 05:22   Link #28009
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Actually, I have a really hard time believing that Tohya would write Erika like that, considering how he rails against disgracing the dead in other contexts. I originally thought that EP6 was a standalone work, but maybe he invited the asshole witch hunters responsible for EP5 to play a rematch with him, and they're responsible for Erika's screwed up characterization.

I can kind of easily picture him playing on a forum with Moetrice as a sock puppet account.
Regardless of the method used to produce them (Erika's character seems to suggest a level of interactivity, so I assume, at the top level, EP5 and 6 were still works in progress or something), Hachijou Tohya put out two mysteries that involved the stranger, Erika Furudo, generally being a bitch to everyone, and even murdering people because ... because.

I'm not saying real world Erika was a heinous, Mall-Santa-beard-snatching murderer, but similar to Rosa's colorful child rearing, it's a matter that would only be exacerbated if Erika really was an unpleasant kind of person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
...of course I'm probably just talking out of my ass at this point.
I ... think ... Ryukishi just really dislikes having to do things with male characters. The only distinctly male persons in the magical / meta narrative are Battler, Ronove, Kinzo's crazy ass, and Will much, much later. On the island, too, the dads had way shallower characterizations than their wives.
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Old 2012-03-01, 07:11   Link #28010
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I ... think ... Ryukishi just really dislikes having to do things with male characters. The only distinctly male persons in the magical / meta narrative are Battler, Ronove, Kinzo's crazy ass, and Will much, much later. On the island, too, the dads had way shallower characterizations than their wives.
Well, not only Umineko

Also the same thing happens in Higurashi, well, it is more or less a harem-type stories, but the female characters are normally way better than the female.

I think it is because he learns his lesson from KEY. And Key, your typical harem, is more about the girls than the boring main char and his boring sidekick. It is the same for MOST visual novel product, so I think it is the traits of the environment he's working in.
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Old 2012-03-01, 13:58   Link #28011
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Beato is Italian for "blessed" and is a masculine adjective
Though...
If Yasu is male doesn't that make Genji a sicko for dressing him up as Beatrice?
Perhaps GenjixKinzo is true after all...
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Old 2012-03-01, 15:57   Link #28012
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
Beato is Italian for "blessed" and is a masculine adjective
Though...
If Yasu is male doesn't that make Genji a sicko for dressing him up as Beatrice?
Perhaps GenjixKinzo is true after all...
True but Italians wouldn't shorten Beatrice with Beato but with Bice or Bea.
Beato is likely how Japanese people would short it so I don't know if this can be used as proof. To me it looks more like a coincidence (also when the anime says 'Beato' the accent fall on a different letter from the one for the Italian 'beato'....) though Ryukishi might have find it an interesting coincidence (there were the 'blessed names' after all and names like Kyrie and Maria).
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Old 2012-03-01, 16:20   Link #28013
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
And as a final argument that is going to be really hard to counter, is that as far as Ryuukishi is concerned, we all know Umineko was more then anything a love letter aimed at BT.

Also, doesn't it make so much more sense as to why Beatrice created such a riddle that not everyone could figure out? Already just telling someone you love them might end up hurting you badly, telling that to someone of the same gender could make this peak a lot.
I do think that the love parallel between RK07 & BT and Battler & Beatrice exists, but honestly I think it's more homo-platonic than homo-sexual. This kind of love- the love between reader and writer- is not bound by sex OR gender in any way.

As someone with "a body that cannot love" I think Yasu feels this kind of platonic love particularly strongly. The result is that Yasu's gender isn't very central in determining the relationships she desires, so it becomes something entirely subject to change based on who she's dealing with. In fact, not just her gender but her entire personality is like this.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Also random and mostly unrelated, but I always had a really hard time to think of Erika as being actually a girl, and even more of that age. Middle-aged man who has accumulated a lot of frustrations and thinks of himself as better then others seems to fit Erika well enough.
Well, originally RK07 had a male character named Virgilius planned, but scrapped him in favor of Virgilia and, later, Erika to fulfill his role in the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Well, not only Umineko

Also the same thing happens in Higurashi, well, it is more or less a harem-type stories, but the female characters are normally way better than the female.

I think it is because he learns his lesson from KEY. And Key, your typical harem, is more about the girls than the boring main char and his boring sidekick. It is the same for MOST visual novel product, so I think it is the traits of the environment he's working in.
Well, just basing my impressions off of the animes for Air, Kanon (2006), and Clannad, I would have to disagree on KEY's main male characters being boring. They are usually very witty and have interesting backstories. Nagisa's father from Clannad was pretty awesome too.

But I will completely agree that Higurashi and Umineko basically follow the same formula: A cool and interesting male lead (Keiichi, Battler), but outside of that the males get relatively little development compared to the females. At least Umineko doesn't really have the harem backdrop, though, unlike Higurashi.

Also, from what I know, RK07 is really a fan of TYPE-MOON in particular. Chie-sensei from Higurashi is based off of Ciel from Tsukihime, from her appearance down to her obsession with curry. RK07 even asked TYPE-MOON for permission to do this, and got it.
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Old 2012-03-01, 21:20   Link #28014
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Not much... unless Battler is gay, but Yasu doesn't realize this and creates "Beatrice" to love him, setting the stage for a needlessly elaborate "love letter" which Battler claims wasn't necessary.
I don't buy that Yasu didn't consider this possibility. Kanon and Shannon exist. It's called hedging your bets.
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Old 2012-03-01, 21:53   Link #28015
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I do think that the love parallel between RK07 & BT and Battler & Beatrice exists, but honestly I think it's more homo-platonic than homo-sexual. This kind of love- the love between reader and writer- is not bound by sex OR gender in any way.

As someone with "a body that cannot love" I think Yasu feels this kind of platonic love particularly strongly. The result is that Yasu's gender isn't very central in determining the relationships she desires, so it becomes something entirely subject to change based on who she's dealing with. In fact, not just her gender but her entire personality is like this.
(and other answers related to the homosexuality theory)

BT sounds like it shaped both the BeaTrice and BaTtler names oddly enough to me...

Still I wasn't exactly serious, I more like indulged in the theory/idea and basically simply explored it. Was rather surprised by how much it could be "arguably supported" and perhaps this is even more interesting then the truth as far as Umineko is concerned (see how far almost any ideas can be sorta supported from it).

However while digging them I did reach three things that I have a hard time forgetting.

Spoiler for Genji:


Spoiler for Nonsense contest?:


Spoiler for Shannon vs Kanon's memories:



Quote:
Well, originally RK07 had a male character named Virgilius planned, but scrapped him in favor of Virgilia and, later, Erika to fulfill his role in the story.
Yeah I know that, but I think Virgilius' personality became mostly Eva Beato's personality (tho perhaps not her overall role). Even Battler in that tips about arc 6's creation compares her to Erika and arc 8 put that relation more foward.

Actually the role Eva-Beato played with Ange in arc 8 is probably very close to Virgilius' intended orriginal role.

Still I can very easily think of Erika as a forum user who has a female avatar who's theories became accepted as the truth for a while. So it's like AuraTwilight I guess (at least Im assuming your name comes from .hack//). Female name, female av, but male nontheless.

As for her acting like a teenage, weird, but to me it felt more like that teenage like side was a result of what they call a mid-life crisis (which is prolly hiting Ryuukishi too).

Still that was entirely unrelated to the rest of the points I posted. I've basically always thought that Erika "felt" like a middle-aged man.


Quote:
Also, from what I know, RK07 is really a fan of TYPE-MOON in particular. Chie-sensei from Higurashi is based off of Ciel from Tsukihime, from her appearance down to her obsession with curry. RK07 even asked TYPE-MOON for permission to do this, and got it.
He's also a Touhou fan tho, and a left4dead fan. Wonder how much we can find those influences in his writing style. I seem to remember he said he created some new characters (for arc 5 or 6 I think) while playing left4dead.
Type-Moon wise, it really makes you wonder if Kinzo and Battler weren't inspired by Archer, who Im sure many thought something akin to that was going on before magic was rejected by the majority of fans.
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Old 2012-03-02, 02:51   Link #28016
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Still, guy built a secret mansion on the back of his island where he went to "hide" from his family for days. Considering the time he spends with Genji and how close they are, this is probably what Id suspect over the (at least in real life) crazy idea of raising a daughter/mistress in secret.
Hiding a person that isn't supposed to exist makes a lot more sense if you ask me. Kinzo wouldn't need a secret mansion to spend quality time alone with Genji.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The second thing is that I'll be very honest, I think as it stands that Yasu is way too melodramatic. I don't think any of us has been seriously convinced that Yasu really didn't have a good shot at love.
A melodramatic teenager? Let's also not forget Yasu had a very unique upbringing. And, if the damaged genitals thing is true, I would say that Yasu probably didn't have a good shot at love and her being "emo" is quite understandable.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I seriously don't think Ryuukishi ever intended for arc 7 to make everyone discard anything that wasn't explored in it.
Maybe that's true. But even if it is, it's still not, as you put it, "simply filler" either.

When you talk about Kanon's memories, are you talking about anything beyond the scenes right before his meta-world death in EP6? Because I always thought that that stuff was just made up- you know, along the lines of "Sakutarou can't handle spicy things".

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Still I can very easily think of Erika as a forum user who has a female avatar who's theories became accepted as the truth for a while. So it's like AuraTwilight I guess (at least Im assuming your name comes from .hack//). Female name, female av, but male nontheless.

As for her acting like a teenage, weird, but to me it felt more like that teenage like side was a result of what they call a mid-life crisis (which is prolly hiting Ryuukishi too).
I would say that the only thing teenage about how Erika acts is her immaturity. If we go with the "meta-world is, or sometimes is, a metaphor for the Internet" idea, I would totally buy Erika actually being some fat, bitter, old, otaku, jerk living in his parent's basement.
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Old 2012-03-02, 03:36   Link #28017
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Erika is probably someone on this forum right now. I nominate Renall because, being a lawyer, he is incapable of feeling sympathy for others and doesn't understand love.
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Old 2012-03-02, 06:48   Link #28018
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Hiding a person that isn't supposed to exist makes a lot more sense if you ask me. Kinzo wouldn't need a secret mansion to spend quality time alone with Genji.
Indeed and he does not, which is among the best reasons to think of this rather then needing a secret mansion + 2 secret Beatrices. He only needs a place to hide to some degree which can be pretty much anything, especially if Rokkenjima hidden has 10 tons of hidden gold + remnants of a military base.



Quote:
A melodramatic teenager? Let's also not forget Yasu had a very unique upbringing. And, if the damaged genitals thing is true, I would say that Yasu probably didn't have a good shot at love and her being "emo" is quite understandable.
Being a teenager is not "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo", it does not excuse everything.
Anyway, it seems I'm partially wrong and some people like you accept her story as valid, it still seems the majority of people has a problem with Umineko (as the appreciation thread shows) and Yasu's backstory is usually at the center of it.

Even if you disagree with what I say per say, surely you can see this.
So I guess, think of this as different people seeking different things that satisfies them differently. The people who critics Yasu as she stands, I think, are probably looking for new ways of thinking about him/her.
If this doesn't suit you, Im not trying to convince you of it, basically. The same way I'm not going to be convinced by your opinion concerning this.



Quote:
Maybe that's true. But even if it is, it's still not, as you put it, "simply filler" either.

When you talk about Kanon's memories, are you talking about anything beyond the scenes right before his meta-world death in EP6? Because I always thought that that stuff was just made up- you know, along the lines of "Sakutarou can't handle spicy things".
Comparing a stuffed animal that plays very minor role in a few episodes with the star of the story? Really ?
Anyway, if I have...
Sakutarou was created to give us an insight of the ways fantasy beings were created, developped and their "logics" (such as red death dodging). It really isn't filler.
Kinzo tries to push Kanon to solves the epitaph and tells him the magic won't be realized until he also attempts it. Similar scene with Shannon in arc 2, he basically blows her off.

This cannot be just random, it's touching topics that are too sensitive to the story to just means nothing. If this is still how you feel, well allow me to disagree. I don't consider a single scene in the entire story to be just filler.

Overall this isn't the first time where I've felt people have forgotten all the details of early arcs in favor of the last few arcs... I wasn't even thinking about Chiru much when I compared Shannon and Kanon.


Quote:
I would say that the only thing teenage about how Erika acts is her immaturity. If we go with the "meta-world is, or sometimes is, a metaphor for the Internet" idea, I would totally buy Erika actually being some fat, bitter, old, otaku, jerk living in his parent's basement.
Yay! ^^;;
Why fat tho? Trying to link him with George somehow?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Erika is probably someone on this forum right now. I nominate Renall because, being a lawyer, he is incapable of feeling sympathy for others and doesn't understand love.
Forgot to comment this : Indeed, the job of being a lawyer does feel close to the idea of "witch of truth".

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-03-02 at 08:48.
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Old 2012-03-02, 09:26   Link #28019
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I would say that the only thing teenage about how Erika acts is her immaturity. If we go with the "meta-world is, or sometimes is, a metaphor for the Internet" idea, I would totally buy Erika actually being some fat, bitter, old, otaku, jerk living in his parent's basement.
So, I've been trying to reconcile Erika's "Whateva, I do what I want" level of interaction as a player with the fact that we are generally speaking, in regards to the forgeries, about written works, and not an IRC between Tohya and a bunch of internet trolls ... I think. So, this is gonna sound clumsy, but I'm of the opinion that Erika's "free actions" is representative of the story still being in the drafting process, and Ikuko is constantly suggesting things that Erika "SHOULD" do in the narrative, to maintain the rigidly high Mary-Sue standards the internet has attributed to her, as a sort of self challenge as authors. So, it'd be all

Ikuko : Ooh, ooh, and how about she's the one who KILLED them, even?
Tohya : What? But that fucks with everything else that comes before and after-
Ikuko : ARE YOU SAYING WE CAN'T MAKE IT WORK? YOU CALLING US INCOMPETENT!?

I mean, not exactly like that, but kinda like that. The interwebs insists of producing forgeries with Erika the super detective, and "Hachijou Tohya" accepts the challenge of what including a character like that would mean for the narrative. This next bit isn't necessary and requires a farther jump of what I'm willing to accept as metaphor, but about Beato's EP6 revival - as Beato is literally "the rules of the game in a ballgown", I'm exploring how comfortable I am exploring her solving the logic error as After publication, or maybe another person trusted to read unfinished manuscripts, arrived at the correct solution to the Logic Error, proving that Beatrice's heart and style can survive the kind of uncaring scrutiny Erika provides.

I'm thinking what this allows me is :
1. Keeping Genius Battler
2. Kinda-sorta explaining how Erika's can make at least seemingly autonomous actions, if Erika herself is just a face for another party going "No, no, that's not what a REAL detective would do during that scene", and I guess echoes the Erika < Bern < Featherine power structure we get
3. Adds a bit of weight to Featherine telling Ange she didn't really know how to solve the logic error, despite seemingly haven written it
4. Still lets me think of End and Dawn as singular written works that werent being constantly red-penned by the entire internet before completion

Of course, I also think Tohya gave Kanon his own body in End as a thought experiment, so take my ramble as you will.
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Old 2012-03-02, 11:01   Link #28020
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
He's also a Touhou fan tho, and a left4dead fan. Wonder how much we can find those influences in his writing style. I seem to remember he said he created some new characters (for arc 5 or 6 I think) while playing left4dead.
There are four adult children and four guns.

Also, Rosa is hogging all the pills.

Interestingly, however, Turn precedes the original Left 4 Dead by a year. So Rosa's little goat rampage can't have been inspired by it. Although it does explain the appeal of the game to Ryukishi.

Although looking at some of the art style mockups and whatnot for his latest work I am curious if maybe Left 4 Dead 2 got him interested in certain aesthetic stylings of the American Antebellum South. Not sure that The Parish is the best way to experience New Orleans, of course...
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Erika is probably someone on this forum right now. I nominate Renall because, being a lawyer, he is incapable of feeling sympathy for others and doesn't understand love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Forgot to comment this : Indeed, the job of being a lawyer does feel close to the idea of "witch of truth".
You guys are assholes. If Beatrice had a good lawyer in End, she'd have walked.

And if Battler had a good lawyer in Dawn, he would've had Erika's Logic Error motion thrown out on the grounds that Battler owed her no particular duty of narrative coherency since Erika was a trespasser in his story, then sued her for tortuous interference in his plot, wrongful death of his murder victims, and nuisance vandalism for covering the island in duct tape and getting blood on the antique carpeting.

He'd take every penny she has and her swimsuit in restitution. Also, that dress belongs to Jessica, so the court would be seizing that as well. And seeing as how she's no longer welcome on the property, she can go for a naked typhoon swim. Into the Sea of Fragments. Get off my plane.
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