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Old 2012-03-03, 12:51   Link #28041
Drifloon
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Well, those didn't actually happen, so they're not really proof of anything. They were probably written before the actual family conference happened, so they don't necessarily bear any resemblance to the real discussion.
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Old 2012-03-03, 13:56   Link #28042
goldendust
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Well, here is some food for thought. In EP8, Ange complains that the happy family conference doesn't make sense because the adults should have been at each others' throats over the inheritance. Battler counters that she only thinks so because the media dug up info about their financial problems and got carried away with conspiracy theories.

Think about that for a second. The only reason she thinks the adults were fighting with each other was the media? Not the first two games? Then what sort of thing were all those scenes of bitter arguing we read?
There were past family conferences weren't there? More so that the author very likely was in close proximity of the Ushiromiya family. I do not think it takes that much to assume that there will be fighting over money.

Although with the eighth game, Battler designed the gameboard in such a way that everything would go fine for the family. That there would be no need for fighting over money. Given that the point of the game was not guide Ange away from fixating on a certain truth, that she should keep the memories of a happy family in her. He would say what he can to convince her to accept it.
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Old 2012-03-03, 13:56   Link #28043
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, those didn't actually happen, so they're not really proof of anything. They were probably written before the actual family conference happened, so they don't necessarily bear any resemblance to the real discussion.
That's not what I was saying anyway. Battler implied that the scenes of the family conference weren't in the message bottle stories at all.

The scenes match up with the conspiracy theories Ange read, so maybe they were filled in by Reading. We already have reason to believe that other stuff in the first two games wasn't in the text.
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Old 2012-03-03, 14:11   Link #28044
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
That's not what I was saying anyway. Battler implied that the scenes of the family conference weren't in the message bottle stories at all.

The scenes match up with the conspiracy theories Ange read, so maybe they were filled in by Reading. We already have reason to believe that other stuff in the first two games wasn't in the text.
Amazing discovery. Not sure I'd interpret it the same way you did tho...
The message bottles might be little more then synopsis of the given stories. Something like Bern's game in arc 8, of the whole of OC (well, perhaps not from the murderer's pov) could very well be what the two are.

Also, just to know, is there anything in any games that actually suggest arc 1 and 2 are depicting the same events as we read ? (like, is it possible they are entirely different arcs from anything we've ever seen?).

Counterpoint: To be fair it could be possible that Ange reached that conclusion long before the message bottle were publicly released, making Battler's statement still valid tho...
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Old 2012-03-03, 21:41   Link #28045
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
That's not what I was saying anyway. Battler implied that the scenes of the family conference weren't in the message bottle stories at all.

The scenes match up with the conspiracy theories Ange read, so maybe they were filled in by Reading. We already have reason to believe that other stuff in the first two games wasn't in the text.
It's an interesting idea! And it actually makes a lot of sense. The messages were signed as Ushiromiya Maria but Maria surely wasn't around when the adults argued so the best she could have done was to say the adults went somewhere to discuss adult business and that they had dark faces and if the REAL writer of the messages wanted to keep the illusion the writer was Maria the messages couldn't include scenes Maria didn't witness.

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Also, just to know, is there anything in any games that actually suggest arc 1 and 2 are depicting the same events as we read ? (like, is it possible they are entirely different arcs from anything we've ever seen?).
I've been wondering if it's possible that EP 1 & 2 aren't the messages but forgeries. In EP 8 Battler read a tale written by Ikuko that has some elements in common with the Umineko tales, though it can be a coincidence.

As far as I can remember Ange didn't comment about EP 1 & 2... though her words seemed to imply there were differences between the EP 3 we read and the one she read.
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Old 2012-03-05, 07:11   Link #28046
goldendust
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As far as I can remember Ange didn't comment about EP 1 & 2... though her words seemed to imply there were differences between the EP 3 we read and the one she read.
Really how so? I thought that might have been due to Ange having a bias reading of the episode unless I am remembering things incorrectly.
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Old 2012-03-05, 17:31   Link #28047
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Really how so? I thought that might have been due to Ange having a bias reading of the episode unless I am remembering things incorrectly.
If I'm not wrong Ange said something along the line of how 'EP 3' (okay, the book she read written by Hachijo Toya) described how Eva ended up in Kuwadorian... while we learn Eva reached Kuwadorian only thanks to EP 4. Also, if 'Ep 3' in Ange's world mentioned Kuwadorian it likely also mentioned the explosion, who wasn't mentioned in our Ep 3.
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Old 2012-03-05, 17:43   Link #28048
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If I'm not wrong Ange said something along the line of how 'EP 3' (okay, the book she read written by Hachijo Toya) described how Eva ended up in Kuwadorian... while we learn Eva reached Kuwadorian only thanks to EP 4. Also, if 'Ep 3' in Ange's world mentioned Kuwadorian it likely also mentioned the explosion, who wasn't mentioned in our Ep 3.
Not necessarily... i mean Ange saw Eva alive with her own eyes and wasn't it also reported in news that day, that "she was found alone in Kuwadorian"? If so it is NOT NECESSARY to be mentioned in the published story because it's obivious. "Ending up" could also be applied with what we saw.

But i have to agree that EP3 =/= Banquet etc, but i don't think the "other versions" that we didn't saw, have more content than the ones we could see (Aside from the ORIGINAL End o.t.g.W. that in my opinion was a witch hunter's forgery which was later edited by Tohya and/or Ikuko). But i find it quite possible that the published works could have been cut short (Meta scenes for example).
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Old 2012-03-05, 18:00   Link #28049
LyricalAura
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Hey, wasn't there some issue in EP1 about a survey of the island not turning up Kuwadorian? I wonder if the Reader insertion theory could account for that too. Maybe the Reader saw the forged results of the survey in the future, mistakenly believed they were genuine, and projected them back on the family conference.
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Old 2012-03-05, 18:13   Link #28050
goldendust
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Just one question. What is the general consensus on the golden truth here? How it can be used and how it can defeat/lose to red?

My interpretation is that the golden truth are truths that are at the heart of the Umineko games that can or cannot be disproved by red. For example the elder Beatrice golden truth can be defeated if another person watched the "magic" would just state in red that it was "sleigh of hand".

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
If I'm not wrong Ange said something along the line of how 'EP 3' (okay, the book she read written by Hachijo Toya) described how Eva ended up in Kuwadorian... while we learn Eva reached Kuwadorian only thanks to EP 4. Also, if 'Ep 3' in Ange's world mentioned Kuwadorian it likely also mentioned the explosion, who wasn't mentioned in our Ep 3.
I see. I chalked that up to Ange filling the blanks as due to the knowledge of the future that she possessed.

Although speaking of different games being read people. Something bugged me in the past. In episode 4 where we read it, where a large chunk of the episode was dedicated to Ange. IIRC Toya wrote episode 4 but even if he/she did not. Wouldn't it be odd for someone to write so many personal stories about someone who is alive after the Rokenjima incident. So at least that part shouldn't be part of the episode.
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Old 2012-03-05, 20:01   Link #28051
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Not necessarily... i mean Ange saw Eva alive with her own eyes and wasn't it also reported in news that day, that "she was found alone in Kuwadorian"? If so it is NOT NECESSARY to be mentioned in the published story because it's obivious. "Ending up" could also be applied with what we saw.
Okay, this is the quote

Quote:
In particular, Itouikukuro's first forgery, 'Banquet of the Golden Witch', managed to show everything, including Ushiromiya Eva's escape to Kuwadorian. People wondered whether this might be the true story of Rokkenjima, and it even made it onto the talk shows...
I'll say the story described something we definitely didn't see and it wasn't just Ange filling the blanks with her knowledge.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Hey, wasn't there some issue in EP1 about a survey of the island not turning up Kuwadorian? I wonder if the Reader insertion theory could account for that too. Maybe the Reader saw the forged results of the survey in the future, mistakenly believed they were genuine, and projected them back on the family conference.
Where was the survey mentioned? I can't find/remember it... -_-

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Although speaking of different games being read people. Something bugged me in the past. In episode 4 where we read it, where a large chunk of the episode was dedicated to Ange. IIRC Toya wrote episode 4 but even if he/she did not. Wouldn't it be odd for someone to write so many personal stories about someone who is alive after the Rokenjima incident. So at least that part shouldn't be part of the episode.
Apparently in 1998 after Eva's death Ange disappeared, and this placed her future in a catbox.
This make possible:
- for Hachijo Toya to speculate about her future and include it in his book as an extra in order to show how none of the Ushiromiya survived
- for Toya and/or Ikuko (who also might or might not be Yasu) to wonder/worry about Ange's future and picture it in his mind as we see in Ep 4. This would cut Ange's future out of the book, like the meta though.
- for Ange to imagine that would be what she would do after Eva's death. As she has through Umineko 4 endings, Ep 4 ending can be merely one she fantasized about.
- for Ep 4 to be the truth. Then the other 3 ending we see in Ep 8 would be mere fantasy though.
- something else I can't think right now.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-03-05 at 20:11.
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Old 2012-03-06, 03:44   Link #28052
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If you look at the literature I dug up on Battler/Tooya, it's clear he's working through the issues with his memories. EDIT: And also, I guess it's obvious from the story...

I've always thought (well, after EP8) that he is definitely speculating on Ange's fate after she disappeared. But more than just speculation, the Battler memories still hold enough sway that makes him concerned about Ange's thoughts and feelings. So I think he wrote a few episodes to try and work out how she could be feeling and perhaps EP8 was his last reminder to her that she must think of her family as she remembers and not as the media portrayed them. Assuming EP8 was one of his forgeries.
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Old 2012-03-06, 06:27   Link #28053
goldendust
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Apparently in 1998 after Eva's death Ange disappeared, and this placed her future in a catbox.
This make possible:
- for Hachijo Toya to speculate about her future and include it in his book as an extra in order to show how none of the Ushiromiya survived
- for Toya and/or Ikuko (who also might or might not be Yasu) to wonder/worry about Ange's future and picture it in his mind as we see in Ep 4. This would cut Ange's future out of the book, like the meta though.
- for Ange to imagine that would be what she would do after Eva's death. As she has through Umineko 4 endings, Ep 4 ending can be merely one she fantasized about.
- for Ep 4 to be the truth. Then the other 3 ending we see in Ep 8 would be mere fantasy though.
- something else I can't think right now.
Indeed Ange did disappear although I still found it odd that Touya would write so much about Ange considering that he at one point avoided meeting her. Unless he wrote those stories in atonement for that.

I would say that the second one is the most likely.
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Old 2012-03-06, 12:55   Link #28054
Renall
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I've been wondering if it's possible that EP 1 & 2 aren't the messages but forgeries. In EP 8 Battler read a tale written by Ikuko that has some elements in common with the Umineko tales, though it can be a coincidence.
I've actually mentioned this before. We assume the two message bottles discovered to be Legend and Turn. However, we have only the endscroll and ep4 to really go by on this, and it doesn't actually prove the two stories are as indicated.

For example, nowhere in Legend's endscroll is it specifically stated that the story which was just shown was what was in the bottle. And nowhere in ep4's discussion of the bottle letters is the actual content of the stories explicitly laid out. We have no idea what the actual message bottle letters said. Indeed, it's impossible to determine from the statements made by any character precisely what stories were what.

Honestly, there's no provenance of any kind for Turn. Not even a hint. We just have made the assumption it's the second message bottle because... it was the second episode? There's nothing that actually proves it. Hell, even if Legend and Turn were the message bottles, it doesn't prove what order they were found or released in.

About the most definitive thing we get is the claim that Land was a story in a lost message bottle... which may not actually be true or which may be metaphorical, and which helps us in no way because we've never seen what Land was like in the first place.
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Hey, wasn't there some issue in EP1 about a survey of the island not turning up Kuwadorian? I wonder if the Reader insertion theory could account for that too. Maybe the Reader saw the forged results of the survey in the future, mistakenly believed they were genuine, and projected them back on the family conference.
At the very least, it seems probable to think that the author either didn't know about Kuwadorian or didn't believe in it. If there's no mention of it in the "original text" (to which we lack any access), then it could have been assumed by the Reader. It seems to me like more of an authorial error... but were that true, it would cast a lot of doubt on what the author supposedly knew.

I also think it's clear that there is some authorial skewing on Ryukishi's part, because if what we got in each episode were mirroring the true text of the works, we'd have this weird situation where only Legend bothers to go into any detail about the family in an introductory expository sense. That makes absolutely no sense for message bottles or forgeries designed as discrete stories. Either they all contain the same level of introductory text, or none do; to have one story that's very clearly an "introduction" either means that the intended introductory arc was discovered and published by random chance, or that it was a deliberate hoax and no one was ever smart enough to catch on to the fact that the first Rokkenjima story ever found just happens to lay out all the necessary background information like it's trying to instruct everyone on how to set them up.

The whole thing is suspicious, but the question is, at what layer is the suspicion supposed to lie? Reader, Author? Prime Universe, Meta-World? The original text, or the text we actually see?
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Old 2012-03-06, 13:09   Link #28055
Wanderer
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Kinzo telling him to solve the epitah, Jessica making him discover the magic of show, and telling him about creating a second self for himself, if anything, are really major influences on Yasu, and they are portrayed under the alias Kanon.
Well, the thing is, Yasu's modes are always depicted as completely separate people, even in Yasu's own story. Kanon's experiences were important for Kanon's development, but are they important for Shannon's or Beatrice's development?

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Also, another thing that most people seems to forget is that the later half of Requiem is a book - a fiction - how can you seriously think it applies to Rokkenjima Prime?
I think that it was a story never released to the public and it's not meant to be deceptive.

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It has been stated that the pieces cannot act out of character or at least cannot act beyond their capabilities(how they are able to act in a situation).
I think it's simply a matter of "If I write characters too inconsistently, it will end people's suspension of disbelief."

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Concerning arc 7: something that only exists in arc 7 and wasn't hinted in earlier arcs ends up being most likely not very important. After all the solution can be attained with arc 1-4 alone. This is not to discard much of arc 7, as most has arguably been hinted beforehand, but it does put the answers within a certain context.
I think the "solution" RK07 was talking about in that interview is identifying ShKanonTrice and ShKanonTrice's motive and not really any more. It might be a good idea to check that section of the interview again.

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Indeed Ange did disappear although I still found it odd that Touya would write so much about Ange considering that he at one point avoided meeting her. Unless he wrote those stories in atonement for that.

I would say that the second one is the most likely.
Yes, I'm completely certain that the EP4 meta-world encounter between Ange and Battler is connected to this- how Ange got burgered behind Battler's back and Battler redoubled his efforts to defeat Beatrice.

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The whole thing is suspicious, but the question is, at what layer is the suspicion supposed to lie? Reader, Author? Prime Universe, Meta-World? The original text, or the text we actually see?
I love how good you are at outlining these kinds of complex, abstract issues. I'll comment later, when I have time.
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Old 2012-03-06, 15:36   Link #28056
Klamus
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Watched the anime and not gonna read the visual novels. Who is the murderer? How did he do the murders? Why?
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Old 2012-03-06, 15:46   Link #28057
adiosToreadon
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Watched the anime and not gonna read the visual novels. Who is the murderer? How did he do the murders? Why?
Who - Beatrice
How - With magic
Why - Because she's bored

Seriously though, you should try reading the visual novels. The anime cut out a lot of good stuff.
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Old 2012-03-06, 15:52   Link #28058
Klamus
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Who - Beatrice
How - With magic
Why - Because she's bored

Seriously though, you should try reading the visual novels. The anime cut out a lot of good stuff.
I'm not interested enough. Just wanna know who was the culprit. Seems like ruykishi leaves that open from what I've heard though. Would probably throw my computer out of window after reading 50 hours of these and just to notice the mystery is left unsolved.
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Old 2012-03-06, 16:08   Link #28059
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You don't deserve to know if you're not gonna put the work in.
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Old 2012-03-06, 16:12   Link #28060
Klamus
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You don't deserve to know if you're not gonna put the work in.
That's a weird way to think about it. I mean I'd just like to know. You don't gain anything from not telling me if you know the answers. I'm not gonna read it anyway. You are just making me sad. Well if you enjoy making me sad then it's ok
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