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Old 2012-03-06, 16:26   Link #28061
goldendust
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I think it's simply a matter of "If I write characters too inconsistently, it will end people's suspension of disbelief."
Although isn't what happened with the tea party of episode 7? Do you think that characters too inconsistently portrayedd?

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Yes, I'm completely certain that the EP4 meta-world encounter between Ange and Battler is connected to this- how Ange got burgered behind Battler's back and Battler redoubled his efforts to defeat Beatrice.
True and that does also explain why Ange has a discussion with Featherine(author's avatar). It would make sense that Touya was trying to make up for his avoiding Age with his stories.
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Old 2012-03-06, 16:34   Link #28062
AuraTwilight
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Originally Posted by Klamus View Post
That's a weird way to think about it. I mean I'd just like to know. You don't gain anything from not telling me if you know the answers. I'm not gonna read it anyway. You are just making me sad. Well if you enjoy making me sad then it's ok
You already said you don't care, so I doubt you're all the sad. What I do care about is fairness. If you're not going to care enough about the story to read it like the rest of us, why should you be rewarded? Besides, the fun in these sort of stories is working out the answer yourself.

Plus, Ryukishi designed his answer so that it couldn't be 'copypasted', so we can't really tell you anyway.
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Old 2012-03-07, 01:03   Link #28063
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Plus, Ryukishi designed his answer so that it couldn't be 'copypasted', so we can't really tell you anyway.
This. I've been going back through EP1... and am at the beginning of EP2 with The Answer in mind and am finding every other scene to basically be spoiler paragraphs... (assuming you were paying attention, unlike me the first time around )

So yeah, it really can't be copy and pasted without copy and pasting nearly 1/3 of every episode (which I will attempt to do later) and to explain it all would be to write another lengthy explanation the size of probably 1/3 of all of Umineko.


I will still attempt to do this later, but since most people have read it already I can cut out a ton of explanations...
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Old 2012-03-07, 03:45   Link #28064
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Originally Posted by Klamus View Post
That's a weird way to think about it. I mean I'd just like to know. You don't gain anything from not telling me if you know the answers. I'm not gonna read it anyway. You are just making me sad. Well if you enjoy making me sad then it's ok
The fact that we're not providing answers is more a matter of the nature of the story than it is us being stingy.

The author doesn't want people to just look up the answer on the internet, and he intentionally wrote Umineko such that people just looking up the answer online wouldn't really understand. He wanted to reward those who would take the time to read it and think about it, which, at this moment, is not you. So, we could give you "answers", but you wouldn't be able to properly appreciate them even if we did.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Although isn't what happened with the tea party of episode 7? Do you think that characters too inconsistently portrayed?
It's not really something I should be obligated to defend, since it wasn't me who claimed "pieces cannot act out of character" in the first place. If we don't find the Kyrie presented to us in EP7 to be believable then it's simply because we've found that EP7 Kyrie failed live up to the aforementioned claim.
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Old 2012-03-07, 05:06   Link #28065
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I think it's simply a matter of "If I write characters too inconsistently, it will end people's suspension of disbelief."
This, so much. The most succinct way of expressing what "pieces can only do what's possible for them", in my opinion as well.

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Originally Posted by Klamus View Post
I'm not interested enough. Just wanna know who was the culprit. Seems like ruykishi leaves that open from what I've heard though. Would probably throw my computer out of window after reading 50 hours of these and just to notice the mystery is left unsolved.
I'm not even sure how to properly respond to that, since you are clearly a goat. And seem to already know that there's not a lot we can definitively tell you. XD

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Although isn't what happened with the tea party of episode 7? Do you think that characters too inconsistently portrayedd?
Hells yeah, my suspension of disbelief (and many others) was pretty shattered when she made the jump from "Well, guess I gotta kill everyone in this room for all that sweet, sweet gold." to "Well, guess I gotta kill EVERYBODY, EVERYWHERE for all that sweet, sweet possibly-fake-I-really-haven't-looked-into-it bank money."

The reason this can exist, though, is that honestly, there's nothing STOPPING any given person from creating a forgery with shoddy premises, odd characterization, or whatever red truths they should like. I could literally, write now, go make a forgery themed around Jessica using murder to get Natsuhi to admit that her hair is dyed. And I'll have Natsuhi behave like a tsundere 14 year old, because geez, why not. Krauss will spend the entire episode shirtless, and noone will comment. And it's not like you can stop me from doing that, or anything ... you'd probably a.) read it for the lulz, if that's how you get your lulz and b.) completely disregard it as a "legitimate" forgery, because I barely even tried to make it one.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The whole thing is suspicious, but the question is, at what layer is the suspicion supposed to lie? Reader, Author? Prime Universe, Meta-World? The original text, or the text we actually see?
Eh, I agree that the stories WE read almost certainly are not the stories that exist in Prime, tit for tat. At the very least, the first alleged "forgery worth reading" was something like Banquet's, which CAN'T have kept the Maria Diary style because Maria was offed pretty early. OR all the forgeries were written from an omniscient, post-death zombie-Maria perspective.

However, just like I think "Ryukishi generally portrayed his characters as he meant them to be in their real lives", despite the explicit lack of such an assurance, I'm also assuming that the forgeries that turned up were, at least, "rather similar" to the stories we read, sans Meta-World shenanigans. My only real argument is that I see little benefit in assuming they were wildly different, or something.
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Old 2012-03-07, 08:40   Link #28066
goldendust
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's not really something I should be obligated to defend, since it wasn't me who claimed "pieces cannot act out of character" in the first place. If we don't find the Kyrie presented to us in EP7 to be believable then it's simply because we've found that EP7 Kyrie failed live up to the aforementioned claim.
I am not asking you to defend anything. I just wanted to hear more of your opinion on the matter regarding the EP7 tea party.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post

Hells yeah, my suspension of disbelief (and many others) was pretty shattered when she made the jump from "Well, guess I gotta kill everyone in this room for all that sweet, sweet gold." to "Well, guess I gotta kill EVERYBODY, EVERYWHERE for all that sweet, sweet possibly-fake-I-really-haven't-looked-into-it bank money."

The reason this can exist, though, is that honestly, there's nothing STOPPING any given person from creating a forgery with shoddy premises, odd characterization, or whatever red truths they should like. I could literally, write now, go make a forgery themed around Jessica using murder to get Natsuhi to admit that her hair is dyed. And I'll have Natsuhi behave like a tsundere 14 year old, because geez, why not. Krauss will spend the entire episode shirtless, and noone will comment. And it's not like you can stop me from doing that, or anything ... you'd probably a.) read it for the lulz, if that's how you get your lulz and b.) completely disregard it as a "legitimate" forgery, because I barely even tried to make it one.
You do have a point there. I justed wondered about the EP7 tea party partly due to Ange's reaction to the truth in EP8.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
However, just like I think "Ryukishi generally portrayed his characters as he meant them to be in their real lives", despite the explicit lack of such an assurance, I'm also assuming that the forgeries that turned up were, at least, "rather similar" to the stories we read, sans Meta-World shenanigans. My only real argument is that I see little benefit in assuming they were wildly different, or something.
I agree with this. I imagine that their real life selves were generally the same but the stories just add more details to the mix. It would feel odd that characters we gotten to know so well were incorrectly protrayed.

Although I do wonder about the appearance of certain characters in the stories. IIRC people commented that Shannon would be able to wear a dress to fool Maria into thinking that Beatrice gave her the letter. As well that the story of EP7
when Yasuda figures out the epitaph that Yasuda was given a dress which made her look like her mother Beatrice.

So assuming that the whole Beatrice=Shannon=Kanon is true, then aren't the two suppose to be blonds considering that even Lion has blond hair. Assuming that they dyed their hair but even that was not implied IIRC. Maybe on Rprime they are all blond.

I found that misleading as when I read episode 1-2, I suspected Jessica to the culprit due to the blond hair, vulgar way of speaking, that she knew her way around thus would be able to plan the murders, good relation to the servants and knew that Natsuhi had the scorpion charm.
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Old 2012-03-07, 09:17   Link #28067
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Originally Posted by Klamus View Post
I'm not interested enough. Just wanna know who was the culprit. Seems like ruykishi leaves that open from what I've heard though. Would probably throw my computer out of window after reading 50 hours of these and just to notice the mystery is left unsolved.
Some people are unhappy about the answers Ryukishi left, since, as people have said, it's not an answer that can be copied and pasted. There are things about it which are up for debate. And I'm not totally happy with everything Ryukishi's done, either. But, if you read through the whole story, you would probably have your own individual opinion about the who and why of the culprit.

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Originally Posted by Klamus View Post
That's a weird way to think about it. I mean I'd just like to know. You don't gain anything from not telling me if you know the answers. I'm not gonna read it anyway. You are just making me sad. Well if you enjoy making me sad then it's ok
Ryukishi would probably enjoy making you sad! One of the themes in Umineko is to use your wits against the problems presented, and to not give up on thinking. At least at first, the story is presented as a challenge between him and his readers.

In any case, as people have mentioned, nobody can give you a quick, straight answer. It may be relatively clear (IMO) who committed the fictional murders even if it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't got enough info, but on the real Rokkenjima...it's not so clear, but neither is it a total mystery. Taking me here, personally I'd say that the person who seems to be pointed towards as the Rokkenjima Prime culprit couldn't have done it, and that that in turn points towards a limited number of other possibilities. The reasons for why that is is tied up in all of the story so far, as would be the answers other people would give you for their opinions. So even if I explained my opinion in depth, since you haven't read the novels it wouldn't mean anything much to you.

Basically, if you're not interested enough to read the novels, any answers you might get are answers that would take so long to tell you that you would get bored long before whoever told you was finished. And that's what Ryukishi intended.
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Old 2012-03-07, 11:17   Link #28068
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
However, just like I think "Ryukishi generally portrayed his characters as he meant them to be in their real lives", despite the explicit lack of such an assurance, I'm also assuming that the forgeries that turned up were, at least, "rather similar" to the stories we read, sans Meta-World shenanigans. My only real argument is that I see little benefit in assuming they were wildly different, or something.
I'd like to believe this too for consistency's sake, but it is an issue that was raised directly by Battler himself in ep8: "How do you know everybody was like that? Maybe they were better." While that's a reversed approach from the "maybe they were all psycho killers" position, it's exactly the same argument. I can't ignore said argument if the author himself brought it up.
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Old 2012-03-07, 11:40   Link #28069
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Originally Posted by Klamus View Post
Watched the anime and not gonna read the visual novels. Who is the murderer? How did he do the murders? Why?
It was Kumasawa. She killed everybody with frozen mackarels. Trufax.
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Old 2012-03-07, 12:54   Link #28070
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I am not asking you to defend anything. I just wanted to hear more of your opinion on the matter regarding the EP7 tea party.
Hmm. Well, I probably take that EP7 Tea Party as more legitimate than most people here. I think it's likely to be close to what was in Eva's diary, actually. I find the idea of there being an argument-turned-lethal over the gold, as well as Kyrie and Rudolf being willing killers in that scenario to be plausible.

But I certainly think that Kyrie's evil-to-the-core nature was exaggerated, especially the thing about her taking pleasure in killing all the innocents, and even more so in her not caring about Ange. And, like what Kealym said, certain things she did didn't make logical sense, even as a villain. It's definitely an anti-Kyrie take on things. The question is: How embellished is it?
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Old 2012-03-07, 14:43   Link #28071
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I think EP7 tea party is not very close to the content of the book of one truth. While i think a similar situation may have played in the room with the gold, but without all the going around and killing everyone by Rudolph and Kyrie.

Because then Battler's coming to Rokkenjima didn't really influence anything as the silblings would have just solved the epitaph anyway... Also I am convinced that a "Murder Mystery Game" happened too. Otherwise all of the Epitaph murders in EP1-6 would have been pointless.
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Old 2012-03-07, 16:51   Link #28072
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
You do have a point there. I justed wondered about the EP7 tea party partly due to Ange's reaction to the truth in EP8.
I've a pet theory about the teaparty being a metaphor for what's going on in the real world.
Let's assume that Yasu wrote the messages in the bottles BEFORE the incident and really tossed them in the sea and then that Lion represents Ikuko/Yasu who actually survived the incident and that she would have liked to explain things to Ange (remember? Ikuko wanted Toya and Ange to meet).
However the tales had given life to the forgeries and the assorted theories turning the narrator/Clair into a puppet in the hands of Bern (who here represents just people wanting to throw dirt on the Ushiromiya family for their own fun).
The Ushiromiya family culprit theory has birth and is tossed in the face of Ange who's deeply hurt (and possibly committed suicide due to it as she's curretly vanished) before Lion/Yasu/Ikuko had the time to explain her something... or could get how the situation developed in such a terrible way (Lion didn't really explain much to Ange and hardly understood what was going on).


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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Although I do wonder about the appearance of certain characters in the stories. IIRC people commented that Shannon would be able to wear a dress to fool Maria into thinking that Beatrice gave her the letter.
Although Shannon might have wear a dress I think she did not.
Apparently, when Maria met Beatrice, she believed Beato was possessing Shannon or so Ep 7 implied so Shannon didn't really need to dress up.

Though she might have done it in Ep 2 (unless Kyrie was lying about seeing her) and she definitely did it in Ep 4... though it wasn't Beato's trademark dress but a more casual one.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
So assuming that the whole Beatrice=Shannon=Kanon is true, then aren't the two suppose to be blonds considering that even Lion has blond hair. Assuming that they dyed their hair but even that was not implied IIRC. Maybe on Rprime they are all blond.
A blonde wig would work just the same.
I don't really like to think that Shannon might have had to die her hair starting when she was a kid and no one noticed.
Though probably the sprites' hair colours aren't mean to be taken seriously. Kanon's hair is different in colour than Shannon's. Either he wear a wig or Yasu is costantly dying her hair to allow switching from Kanon to Shannon and back.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I found that misleading as when I read episode 1-2, I suspected Jessica to the culprit due to the blond hair, vulgar way of speaking, that she knew her way around thus would be able to plan the murders, good relation to the servants and knew that Natsuhi had the scorpion charm.
I thought it was purposely misleading... There's a cool MAD around in which Jessica is the culprit so you weren't the only one in suspecting her.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'd like to believe this too for consistency's sake, but it is an issue that was raised directly by Battler himself in ep8: "How do you know everybody was like that? Maybe they were better." While that's a reversed approach from the "maybe they were all psycho killers" position, it's exactly the same argument. I can't ignore said argument if the author himself brought it up.
I like to think the characterization we were presented is the one that work for the forgeries, probably based on what the outside world knew and what the messages wrote, but likely isn't spot on for the characters in Prime.

The cousins were probably fairly consistent as they had many schoolmates who can testify how they were but what about the siblings and the servants?
Likely the face they presented to the outside world was their businnes one, not the gentler one they had when they were in company of their beloved family.

Eva loved her husband and son but the world believed she was capable to rutlessly murder them along the others.
I take it as a hint that the people who said/knew she loved them deeply were few and went unheard compared to the ones that might have said that she was ruthless and bad tempered and would step over everyone to get what she wished.
So the world knew her more for a person who was ruthless than for a loving mother and wife... and the same goes for many characters so if you were to portray them in a forgery like loving people who get along... well, the world wouldn't believe you... even if you might have been spot on.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I think EP7 tea party is not very close to the content of the book of one truth. While i think a similar situation may have played in the room with the gold, but without all the going around and killing everyone by Rudolph and Kyrie.
Well, the problem would be that Eva wouldn't know what Kirye and Rudolf did after she fainted while Ep 7 describes their conversations, what they did and how and why they killed certain people like that.

The best Eva could have known is that Kirye shoot Rosa and after her and Hideyoshi and then claimed she killed everyone and Rudolf claimed he killed George. Nothing more.

Also I think the worst part for Ange was likely that the book said that NO ONE WOULD COME BACK. I think deep down she still hoped someone would manage to return and this was the worst truth ever for her.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Because then Battler's coming to Rokkenjima didn't really influence anything as the silblings would have just solved the epitaph anyway... Also I am convinced that a "Murder Mystery Game" happened too. Otherwise all of the Epitaph murders in EP1-6 would have been pointless.
Well, the "Murder Mystery Game" was supposed to happen in Ep 7 too as the siblings were challenged to solve the epitaph... the fact they solved it stopped the game though.

And likely the TeaParty reports a theory going on in 1998... and since Yasu wasn't supposed to be the culprit to the forgers Battler's return was meaningless.
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Old 2012-03-07, 17:28   Link #28073
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Just read through the summary of Hane (I think), and I'm left confused with something.
I always took episode 6 as a huge hint when Erika trolled Battler and killed off the everyone pretending to be dead, but in Hane, in the game Beatrice creates, she is clearly the culprit.
Any thoughts on this?
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Old 2012-03-07, 17:54   Link #28074
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Er...are you talking about Our Confession, you mean?
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Old 2012-03-07, 17:58   Link #28075
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I like to think the characterization we were presented is the one that work for the forgeries, probably based on what the outside world knew and what the messages wrote, but likely isn't spot on for the characters in Prime.

The cousins were probably fairly consistent as they had many schoolmates who can testify how they were but what about the siblings and the servants?
Likely the face they presented to the outside world was their businnes one, not the gentler one they had when they were in company of their beloved family.
Not all Cousins though... while i think George, Jessica and Maria were characterized as they really have been in RPrime, i think Battler was not. The number of differences between the Battler from EP1-4 and the one from EP5-6 are too many. That is why i also think that Legend and Turn were made before the incident. Battler was just TOO childish in EP1-4, which leads me to believe that his personality is based off the Battler from 6 years ago.
And then in EP8 while playing cards:

Quote:
`"Ihihi-!!`@` Full hou~se!!`@` Take that!"`@

`"Whoa.`@` You weren't bluffing...!"`@

`The cousins were all bursting with energy, sitting in a circle on the bed.`\

`"And I thought Battler always had crap in his hands every time he acted tough...!"`@

`"Of course, I've been losing all this time just to make you think that!`@` Ushiromiya Battler, the man who loses strategically to win in the end! Ihihi!"`\

`"Uu-, Battler's incredible...!`@` All my coins have disappeared again."`@
Perhaps a hint on Genius-Battler from EP6? Or maybe even a Genius-Prime-Battler?



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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, the problem would be that Eva wouldn't know what Kirye and Rudolf did after she fainted while Ep 7 describes their conversations, what they did and how and why they killed certain people like that.

The best Eva could have known is that Kirye shoot Rosa and after her and Hideyoshi and then claimed she killed everyone and Rudolf claimed he killed George. Nothing more.

Also I think the worst part for Ange was likely that the book said that NO ONE WOULD COME BACK. I think deep down she still hoped someone would manage to return and this was the worst truth ever for her.



Well, the "Murder Mystery Game" was supposed to happen in Ep 7 too as the siblings were challenged to solve the epitaph... the fact they solved it stopped the game though.

And likely the TeaParty reports a theory going on in 1998... and since Yasu wasn't supposed to be the culprit to the forgers Battler's return was meaningless.
Sorry if you misunderstood, but i only wanted to show why EP7TP canNOT be Prime or the whole content of the book of one truth
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Old 2012-03-08, 03:53   Link #28076
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Er...are you talking about Our Confession, you mean?
Not unlikely. Dlanor is releasing Beato's incompleted tale..
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Old 2012-03-08, 04:09   Link #28077
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Yea, you're speaking of Our Confession. To be quite frank, while 'Yasu' is the culprit of her Gameboards (which is something we already knew), she doesn't seem to be the culprit of the REAL world, or atleast not the sole culprit, according to Ryukishi herself. She creates these Gameboards to take all the blame upon herself, and protect whoever is implicit in the crime.

Dlanor herself seems to forward this line of thinking. While there is the Fantasy and Mystery sides of the tale, Dlanor implores the audience to find a 'third' side to the tale; perhaps the truth being covered up.
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Old 2012-03-08, 04:53   Link #28078
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I'd like to believe this too for consistency's sake, but it is an issue that was raised directly by Battler himself in ep8: "How do you know everybody was like that? Maybe they were better." While that's a reversed approach from the "maybe they were all psycho killers" position, it's exactly the same argument. I can't ignore said argument if the author himself brought it up.
Oh, I took it more as "Just because everyone here had their faults, you shouldn't let two unfortunate days rewrite the entire rest of their lives." And I judge him pretty harshly for showing her a tale he had to have KNOWN she would quickly reject, without laying much groundwork.

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It was Kumasawa. She killed everybody with frozen mackarels. Trufax.
No, see, it was Godha - Kumasawa was just his mackerel supplier. You see how they're always in the kitchen together - cooking and stuff.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Also I am convinced that a "Murder Mystery Game" happened too. Otherwise all of the Epitaph murders in EP1-6 would have been pointless.
Could you elaborate what you mean? Are you talking about the gameboards, or Prime, and how would the murders be pointless?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Although Shannon might have wear a dress I think she did not.
Apparently, when Maria met Beatrice, she believed Beato was possessing Shannon or so Ep 7 implied so Shannon didn't really need to dress up.
Meh, I've always been confused why people thought a Beatrice dress was necessary for trickery. Outside of Requiem, the only reason we'd even think it existed was Rosa seeing it on Beato's dead body 20 years ago.

Most people agree that the human's appearances aren't meant to be serious, as Beatrice's blonde hair and blue eyes are explicitly called out constantly for being foreign, and you'd think he'd at least mention Jessica's hair being dyed considering all the other absurd amount of details we get. Even by anime-hair logic, the Ushiromiya's don't make much sense, so... the only counter is Bern mentioning that Erika has blue hair like her, but we can chalk that up to them being kinda maybe aware that they're in the story that we ourselves are reading.



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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The cousins were probably fairly consistent as they had many schoolmates who can testify how they were but what about the siblings and the servants?
Likely the face they presented to the outside world was their businnes one, not the gentler one they had when they were in company of their beloved family.
Now, I know full well that most of the characters spent most of their lives with their "public face" on, as you say. And this argument doesn't work for certain notably isolated, private people (cough, Natsuhi), but these people still had LIVES. Jessica and Battler had friends and teachers and at least in Battler's case, an entire other half of his family that he was in contact with. Kumasawa and Nanjo had adult aged children. I'm pretty sure everyone except Natsuhi, Shannon, and Kanon mentioned some kind of social sphere outside Rokkenjima.

And I can't be the only one honestly surprised Maria's father didn't get a single line. Or at least some offhand mention of how the media had also been bothering him a little.


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The best Eva could have known is that Kirye shoot Rosa and after her and Hideyoshi and then claimed she killed everyone and Rudolf claimed he killed George. Nothing more.
True, but it's possible she actually did go the guesthouse / mansion and take a survey of things, just to be sure, and drew some very -reasonable- conclusions. After all, at that point both Kyrie and Rudolf were dead, she had a gun, and nearly a whole day before anything would explode.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Also I think the worst part for Ange was likely that the book said that NO ONE WOULD COME BACK. I think deep down she still hoped someone would manage to return and this was the worst truth ever for her.
You know ... I often wonder when Ange says that - would she really have been okay with absolutely anyone? Like, if it were Jessica, or Godha, or Natsuhi that came out of the woodworks in 1998, and she'd be all "What happened to you guys?" and they'd just shrug and say "I honestly don't even know. Woke up on a dock after dinner, and heard some shit blow up."

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Not all Cousins though... while i think George, Jessica and Maria were characterized as they really have been in RPrime, i think Battler was not. The number of differences between the Battler from EP1-4 and the one from EP5-6 are too many.
Well... Battler was in a very, VERY different position between the Question arcs and the Chiru arcs. He was originally being besieged by mysteries by a seemingly evil troll witch he couldn't get. Then in Chiru he had to fight to even be acknowledged as the main character, then seemingly solved everything, then WAS the seemingly evil troll witch, and then was something between an old man's displaced memory and a teenaged girls delusions. And then there's EP5 Virgilia telling him outright "See, she wasn't an evil troll. She was shy and stupid. Go on and hug her now, boy."
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Old 2012-03-08, 05:59   Link #28079
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
You know ... I often wonder when Ange says that - would she really have been okay with absolutely anyone?
Yeah. Ange sure as hell wasn't satisfied with just Eva coming back.

Well, there was some reconciliation in EP8... And I got all mushy inside when Ange called Eva "mom"
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Old 2012-03-08, 08:57   Link #28080
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Could you elaborate what you mean? Are you talking about the gameboards, or Prime, and how would the murders be pointless?
Compared to most of the other people here, I do not think that Yasuda is trying to defend someone by taking the blame. I think that she is just feeling guilty. That only applies to Banquet and Alliance, because it is likely that Legend and Turn were made before the incident.

Well of course this only makes sense if "Ikukoshkanontrice" is true.

I think it is like that:
In prime Yasuda made a murder mystery game for Battler where no people died, so everyone hid in the guesthouse. There Eva and Battler solved the epitaph together and... well i am not sure how it went on, but maybe at some point after that Battler told Shannon that he did remember the promise and George could not accept it... He got a Winchester somehow and shot Battler (not a moral wound of course) or attacked him in hand to hand combat and beat him up pretty badly... which later led to his "brain damage".
Kyrie, who already was informed by Rudolph, that Battler is her real son, got angry and shot George...
then Eva came and thought "I knew it! Kyrie is a heartless bitch!" without knowing that George almost killed Battler... and so she shot Kyrie...
then Eva and Shannon took Battler and tried to get to Kuwadorian because they all thought that someone has become a real murderer and on their way there, the bomb exploded because Eva didn't trust "Beatrice's" explanation about the bomb and switched it to active unintentionally.... So all people involved in the murder mystery game died... and Shannon got paranoid that Eva may have been the murderer and ran away with Battler who was still injured and escaped by boat, while Eva was rescued from Kuwadorian later. Then Yasuda took her identity as Ikuko Hachijou that she prepared for 2 years and used her money to also give Battler a fake identity as Hachijou Tohya.

Then people found 2 message bottles that Yasuda threw into the sea before the incident for fun, because she was too shy to show her own literature work to anyone.

But the witch hunters misunderstood that and thought of it as a challenge from the murderer or something like that and published it...

Convinced that Eva was the culprit (while still thinking that she herself was responsible that the killings happened because of her murder mystery game, so she also showed herself as the culprit in it), Ikuko released Banquet o.t.g.W.
Then Eva died and Ikuko got her hands on the "book of one truth" and realized that Eva was not the culprit. Ikuko released Alliance o.t.g.W. to show that she still didn't know what really happened and as it was in the game itself, "all events were covered in the witches' darkness".

Then there was a very popular forgery by a witch hunter that showed Natsuhi as the murderer.
Ikuko and Tohya tried to somehow overthrow this story, but they couldn't do it (Visualized by the trial scene), and at the end people started losing interest over the 19^9 works. But then a miracle happened:
Tohya suddenly remembered his memories of the incident! And now that he had remembered it, Ikuko had all 3 fragments of the truth together: Her own, Eva's and Battler's. By combining them, she found the "one and only truth" and released an alternate version of the witch-hunter's forgery, where some scenes were changed, like the fact that the first 6 people only faked their death, and also had a different ending.
They released it under the name "End o.t.g.W."

Then Tohya said that he wants to create his own work too, so he created "Dawn o.t.g.W."

I think "Requiem o.t.g.W." is just the EP7TP forgery... i have no idea what EP7 itself could mean in prime...

And "Twilight o.t.g.W."? Probably the mystery of Bern... and EP8 itself probably was something that happened in Ange's mind.




Well that is my incomplete theory of Rokkenjima prime. And... to put it into Erika's words: "What do you think, everyone?"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well... Battler was in a very, VERY different position between the Question arcs and the Chiru arcs. He was originally being besieged by mysteries by a seemingly evil troll witch he couldn't get. Then in Chiru he had to fight to even be acknowledged as the main character, then seemingly solved everything, then WAS the seemingly evil troll witch, and then was something between an old man's displaced memory and a teenaged girls delusions. And then there's EP5 Virgilia telling him outright "See, she wasn't an evil troll. She was shy and stupid. Go on and hug her now, boy."


As you can see above, i think that Battler in EP1-2 is only a fictional construct in Yasuda's mind. In EP3-4 it was already a bit different. Piece!Battler was not so naive to think that it was not someone from the "18" people. Instead he reached the conclusion that it was Eva. Which already shows that the Battler here is able to cope with the murders, while the one from EP1-2 was like "It was some 19th person" or "it was a witch".

And in EP5 it was the personality that a witch hunter found out by asking Battler's friends from his high school. EP6 confirms that... In these 2 episodes Battler is much more intelligent, than in the first 4.

All you have to do is comparing how he was trying to solve the epitaph in Legend and in End, then you will see that. Also i remember how he had the knowledge of a newborn baby in Legend... The others had to explain him so many things that almost all others knew about very well...

Please note that i am comparing the Piece!Battlers here and not the developing of Meta!Battler.


Oh and to throw in another theory of mine: The truth is hidden in the "cheerful" conversation of the cousins. I still didn't check if that is really true, but most of the important clues for the games (and possibly prime), can be found in these seemingly trival conversations.

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-08 at 09:17.
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