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Old 2012-03-18, 13:19   Link #28161
Misuzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Can you picture either of them being referred to as "too rude/wild/violent"?
Not George, but Battler absolutely.

I think in that sort of high-stress, horrifying situation, it'd be easy for any of those three to take a note like that personally.
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Old 2012-03-18, 13:47   Link #28162
chronotrig
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@rogerpepitone:
No, it was an awkward line to translate, and I didn't do a great job with it.

This is just off the top of my head, but maybe something like this would be closer:
"Did you really think I'd just sit around like an idiot, waiting for you to barge in here? This intellectual night has no place for someone as violent and crude as you.
Imagine the look on your parents' faces, to have raised a child this stupid.
Oh yes, I remember. They had the same blank, stupid stare you're wearing now.
And now, their bellies are full in the land of sweets!"
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Old 2012-03-18, 14:23   Link #28163
Kealym
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Regarding the letter Jessica finds:
This letter is indeed very odd, and I think it's inclusion was actually pretty crafty. After all, EP2 is the only time the humans are given ANY impression that Beatrice has a definite location on the island where they might find her - it would make sense for someone to investigate that room, and the letter is open enough to indeed refer to any of the cousins.

Regarding whether or not Yasu can kill people
Ehhhh ... I'd personally argue that no person such as Yasu even existed before Requiem, anyway, and the fact remains that at least in the context of the fictions, Shannon is portrayed as the sort of girl (and I pull no punches here because Alliance more or less confirms her as a culprit) who's willing to fake her own death, shoot her fiancee in the face, and get all pissy because Battler can't remember something he said when he was, like, 12. In addition to her timid, "Oh no, we just held hands and talked" meido persona. And this was how Ryukishi chose to portray her, for four whole episodes.

What I'm saying is, regardless of whether you wanna think Piece!Shannon can be a murderer, there are six dead Ushiromiya's with candy in their gullets, so unless their deaths were a heroic sacrifice to save us all from the candy-spawning explosive-stomach-flu, there's a fox in the hen house among the humans. And NONE of the 18 (except, maybe, Kinzo) are very openly displayed to be terrible, serial murder type people.
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Old 2012-03-18, 14:45   Link #28164
Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I think the correct answer for the gameboards is not "Yasuda is the culprit" but instead "Yasuda is the culprit but it's not like her, it's out of character" I guess it is the reason why Will only "won" the battle in EP7, but Battler even "understood everything about this world" in EP5. Only people that know Yasuda well can see through the facade of the Yasuda-culprit theory. Because hey, it is an anti-mystery.
This. I think this is that final, "third story" Dlanor was talking about in Our Confessions.

Prime was a murder game gone wrong. By means of this murder game Yasu/Beatrice committed fantasy (fake) murders, yet by some accident the fantasy became reality. Because of this, "Beatrice" became a real murderer in Prime-Yasu's own mind, which is expressed in her writing (necessarily post-incident of course): It's no accident that the fictions are nonsense as a Mystery when it comes to motive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
It may seem cheap, but Yasu's mind is as stable as a Hinamizawa Syndrome victim. She just wants to have a battle of deduction with Battler, but doesn't understand that people can't come back when they are killed.
No, that's not how Yasu thinks or Beatrice works. There are numerous examples just off the top of my head, like Berune's key ring in EP7 or Virgillia and the broken vase in EP3 etc., but I'll use the example of Maria's Halloween candy in EP2: We all know that when Beatrice "fixed" Maria's candy what she actually did was have Maria close her eyes so that she could swap the broken candy for the undamaged one that Maria gave her earlier. According to your version of Beatrice, we would suppose that Yasu actually believed that the candy was magically repaired even though she's actually the one that performed the trick.

There's a dualism to Yasu: She both believes in magic and knows it's a trick. This dualism is expressed by the interaction of the two different Beatrices in the "Wonderful display of magic" scene during EP6. The important point is that a "trick" to one person is "magic" to another, and Yasu firmly understands this relationship. She's not going to just forget to account for the "trick" side of things and just kill people expecting them to come back to life; she would have a plan to "resurrect" them, hence the idea of fake murders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Ange: "...After that incident, the nature of Mariage Sorciere rapidly began to change. Before then, the alliance was a peaceful thing. But after the incident, it grew full of shadier things, focusing on how to curse people you hate. ...Onee-chan's diary began to show a clear change."

A diary is a mirror that reflects one's heart as it is.

It probably showed the personality called Maria die, and be reborn as the evil witch personality MARIA.

When she buried her diary in hatred and sadness...her heart was surely not satisfied.

Because it wasn't satisfied, she had to bury it in hatred and sadness.

And while still unsatisfied, she met with death.

If Rosa had not destroyed Sakutarou, the incident would not have occurred. ...Simply by the existence of the above passages, this level of reasoning is possible for Drifloon. What do you think, everyone?

Even if you don't believe that these incidents represent the core cause of the incident, as I do, I hope that I have at least caused you to realise that there is a lot more to this incident than only the conflict of Yasu's three souls, or simply Yasu's insanity.

Ange flat-out says that the incident wouldn't have happened if she didn't leave Mariage Sorciere. These passages are definitely important. Ryukishi didn't write them for no reason. They definitely deserve consideration whenever anyone is discussing the motive for this crime.
First, let us remember Knox's 9th. It may be that all, some, or none of Ange's conclusions are correct. Certainly, though, the part you bolded is worth consideration, but I still have a hard time seeing Yasu as a cold-blooded mass murderer. Honestly, even the murder game scenario is pretty mean to a lot of people if you ask me, so it's not strange to also see it as a form of vengeance against those who disrespected MARIA and Beatrice.
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Old 2012-03-18, 15:05   Link #28165
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Regarding the letter Jessica finds:
This letter is indeed very odd, and I think it's inclusion was actually pretty crafty. After all, EP2 is the only time the humans are given ANY impression that Beatrice has a definite location on the island where they might find her - it would make sense for someone to investigate that room, and the letter is open enough to indeed refer to any of the cousins.
I find EP 2 scenario with Beato on the gameboard very interesting though I'm curious if she really was there or if Kyrie and Rosa were bribed into saying they saw her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Regarding whether or not Yasu can kill people
Ehhhh ... I'd personally argue that no person such as Yasu even existed before Requiem, anyway, and the fact remains that at least in the context of the fictions, Shannon is portrayed as the sort of girl (and I pull no punches here because Alliance more or less confirms her as a culprit) who's willing to fake her own death, shoot her fiancee in the face, and get all pissy because Battler can't remember something he said when he was, like, 12. In addition to her timid, "Oh no, we just held hands and talked" meido persona. And this was how Ryukishi chose to portray her, for four whole episodes.

What I'm saying is, regardless of whether you wanna think Piece!Shannon can be a murderer, there are six dead Ushiromiya's with candy in their gullets, so unless their deaths were a heroic sacrifice to save us all from the candy-spawning explosive-stomach-flu, there's a fox in the hen house among the humans. And NONE of the 18 (except, maybe, Kinzo) are very openly displayed to be terrible, serial murder type people.
Well, I'm sure Shannon killed on the gameboard. The problem is that the gameboard is fiction.
In fiction everyone can kill. The problem is "Would she be capable to do it in real life also?"
The game implied in the end she wasn't the real culprit in Prime. To use Kyrie's words is because she's a murderer who didn't get a chance (because on Prime something happened that stopped her from killing people) or because she's not capable/didn't plan to be a murderer?
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Old 2012-03-18, 15:20   Link #28166
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Prime was a murder game gone wrong. By means of this murder game Yasu/Beatrice committed fantasy (fake) murders, yet by some accident the fantasy became reality. Because of this, "Beatrice" became a real murderer in Prime-Yasu's own mind, which is expressed in her writing (necessarily post-incident of course): It's no accident that the fictions are nonsense as a Mystery when it comes to motive.
Thank you... really... i wanted to write the same but had no idea how to explain it without writing a wall of text.

Actually this makes it seem that her reason for writing the message bottles (IF they were written post-incident), were not to protect the real culprit, but instead to be forgiven for her "sins", as she views herself as the real culprit, although she never really killed anyone (neither ordered someone to kill another).

Well, of course Ikukoshkanontrice is required for this, as i doubt she would have enough time to write 2 or 3 message bottles in 1 day, after most people were dead already.
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Old 2012-03-18, 16:54   Link #28167
Toku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
stuff
And I think you're on the right track, but, as with many things in Umineko, I believe that the truth is not so simple that you can say it is "entirely X" or "entirely Y." In other words, while what you said is (most likely) part of the equation, I'm sure that there is more to it.

After all, you left out something EXTREMELY crucial:

Maria was not the only one who tried to invite others into the Mariage Sorciere alliance. Here's a scene from Beatrice's perspective, after Battler failed to remember his sin and so she suspended the game and left:

"......As I thought, .........from the very beginning, magic should only have been used within Mariage Sorciere."
".........Seems so. ...Maria also,
......thought that with Ange."
"The witches' alliance is you and I. It started with those two. ......Mixing in other people was the first mistake..."
".........It's just so fun. ...We wanted to add someone close to us into that circle. And we wished that the witches' alliance would grow very large, that everyone would be able to use fun magic together, and that we'd all be happy."
"However, .........only you and I were able to understand magic after all."
"We are, ......the only witches who met with a miracle in this world. .........By now, as long as Maria has Beato, no one else is needed."
"............Me too. As long as you are here, I don't need anyone else anymore."
"In the very first moment that Mariage Sorciere was formed,
......it was already complete."
"...............That is...so. That is truly so......"

It had been a witches' alliance to make everyone happy together with magic.
......I wonder when it got this screwed up?
What did I want to do when I started this game? ......I can't really remember even that.
No, I may remember, ...but that's a feeling I now wish to throw away to the far side of oblivion.


".........It's alright. Why not forget everything? Mariage Sorciere, with just the two of us. ......We will acknowledge each other. And no one will hurt us. So we won't be hurt. We won't cry. Let's forget everything. ............Hey, Beato. ......We are...eternity......"
"........................Maria..................uu uuuuuu, .........uuuuuuuuuuuuu...!!"

There was also a scene in EP7 where Beatrice was with Maria, and she mentioned that while she loved spending time with Maria, she still wanted to invite a certain other person there...

And don't forget that Maria also wanted to invite Rosa.

I mean, I don't know how much more plainly I can put it. Even if you think it's stupid, both Maria and Beatrice suffered equally immense amounts of pain from trying to invite others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
To use Kyrie's words is because she's a murderer who didn't get a chance (because on Prime something happened that stopped her from killing people) or because she's not capable/didn't plan to be a murderer?
I never thought about Kyrie's words in EP6 as having been a possible hint about the incident in Oct. 1986. That's very interesting. And considering that the purpose of this game was for Battler to show that he understood Beatrice and her game... It makes plenty of sense that it would.

There was also Rosa, who, while she was left behind by her husband and certainly hated what he had done to her, made it clear that she still hoped that maybe they might be reunited... I remember thinking that this sounded a lot like Beatrice potentially...

I think there was probably something interesting in each of the things the 'victims' said, but... My memory of it is pretty blurry. Does anyone else remember something notable from these scenes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Actually this makes it seem that her reason for writing the message bottles (IF they were written post-incident), were not to protect the real culprit, but instead to be forgiven for her "sins", as she views herself as the real culprit, although she never really killed anyone (neither ordered someone to kill another).
And this is implied by Answer:

"R And it really was just that. She had no intention to create the perfect crime from the very beginning. And that is how, even without turning the chessboard over, we return to the question „Why did the culprit send a letter announcing the incident?“. If somebody wanted to commit the perfect crime, it would have been better not to send an announcement and to murder everyone in their sleep. In the end it shows that the culprit had the internal longing to be discovered.

K No matter how you look at it, it seems like she was already accepting death. Both the letters before the incident and the message bottles seemed very much like a will.

R While there was enough desperation to actually carry out the incident, there was also the wish for somebody to stop her. Many criminals sending out announcements of their crimes might actually be screaming „Somebody, please stop me!“. Even though of course they can not be forgiven.

K That is why she painted herself as the sole culprit and wanted for Battler to solve it, right?!"

Quote:
Well, of course Ikukoshkanontrice is required for this, as i doubt she would have enough time to write 2 or 3 message bottles in 1 day, after most people were dead already.
Supposedly the first message bottle was 'found' a few days after the incident had happened. And "Oct. 6, 1986" implies that at the very least, she lived through the incident itself.

Last edited by Toku; 2012-03-18 at 17:12.
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Old 2012-03-18, 17:45   Link #28168
goldendust
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Fake murders aside anyone consider that Yasuda wanted to make a catbox? That as long the truth is shut within the catbox that any future can exist. That even contradicting dreams can exist. Kanon and Shannon were talking about it at the during EP8 after Ange solves their riddles.

That Yasuda through Beatrice intended that everything on Rokenjima gets shut up within a catbox so that everyone can be happy with any future that is possible.

It has been mentioned a few times that Beatrice intends to open the door to the golden land at the end. In addition that Yasuda seems highly inspired with the witch epitaph as she created her plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Another thing about the letter is that it's clearly targeted at Jessica, but there was no way for Yasu to predict ahead of time that Jessica, or anyone else for that matter, would be the one to run off and find it. Unless Jessica was an accomplice right from the start and they planned it that way, of course.
Although isn't it implied that Yasuda is a risk taker?

For example in the first twilight of the first game, that it was implied that Shannon hid among the bodies. That was immensely risky and everything could have been botched quite easily.

I could see that Yasuda places the letter while thinking Jessica with her extremely violent attitude would be most likely to barge in.
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Old 2012-03-18, 18:43   Link #28169
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I never thought about Kyrie's words in EP6 as having been a possible hint about the incident in Oct. 1986.
Well, actually the quote I used came from EP 7 but yes, she used that same concept in Ep 6 as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
That's very interesting. And considering that the purpose of this game was for Battler to show that he understood Beatrice and her game... It makes plenty of sense that it would.

There was also Rosa, who, while she was left behind by her husband and certainly hated what he had done to her, made it clear that she still hoped that maybe they might be reunited... I remember thinking that this sounded a lot like Beatrice potentially...

I think there was probably something interesting in each of the things the 'victims' said, but... My memory of it is pretty blurry. Does anyone else remember something notable from these scenes?
Hum... let's see...
The first to be killed was Eva.

Random things that can be interesting in her words are:

Quote:
"Ayumi-san is a well-bred, modest woman, isn't she?!! She just couldn't look at you because you're a man and it would be embarrassing and ill-mannered...!! If you can't feel anything from her unless she looks at your eyes, then just tell her that. I'm sure she'll look at you in the future...!!"
Which can be seen as a way to underline the importance of comunication... which is sort of a sore issue in Umineko as Yasuda keeps everything for herself.

Quote:
Kids don't grow unless their parents watch over them!! If children are sprouts, then parents are the sun! No plants will bud, and no flowers will bloom without the sun!!
It's interesting because Yasuda doesn't have real parents.

Then there's her whole attempt to 'choose things for George'... which can mirror how Yasuda felt controlled by fate.

Interesting points, though they don't really refers to Yasuda are that George here says he doesn't want to be the head while in EP 7 he seemed to be tempted by the idea (or maybe it's just me) and that he insists all Eva did for him was for her own end denying she did it out of love for him... though he says he wants to become a parent like her.

Personally, though I think Eva might have had the wrong ideas for her son, I don't think in her actions she was lead solely by her own ambitions. George talks about how hard for him it was to study so much, but in the whole discussion is mentioned how Eva and Hideyoshi tried to help him through all this too, from paying fees for teachers to searching things that were easier for him to learn to going to extra lessons with him.

It's interesting because George seems to overlook the nice things his parents did to help him in that moment... although he probably knows them and this can match with how, in a moment of desperation Yasuda might have overlooked the nice points of everyone and 'planned to murder them' (at the end of EP 6 we see Kanon remembering the nice sides of everyone).

Quote:
"Is it fun to play with your son like this, Mother?"
"Yes, it is!! You are my precious son, and I'll love you lots and lots inside my womb!! I even love it when you kick in there!!"
It's sort of a scary dialogue but match with Beato and Battler's duels and at the same time, if you stretch things it can match with Yasuda and her fantasy world. Even if nurturing the illusion of Beato and Co as well as Battler's return might be painful she still loved and nurtured them.

Oh and there's this bit about the gameboard.

Quote:
And besides, it only meant taking those lives as pieces on the board.

For the versions of themselves to whom the game board was the only world, this was a tragic parricide, ......but to these ones who stood around the game board in this witch's smoking room...it was nothing more than a movement of the pieces, representing George's will to overcome his parents.
Again we're told that for the ones out of the gameboard killing pieces on the gameboard isn't something wrong... though the players might not feel it as such. George takes it pretty well but Jessica cries after killing Kyrie and can't persuade herself it was just a game.

We've Kyrie next who underlines how giving up on love is crawling through hell (note taht EP 7 Kyrie didn't seem desperate about Rudolf's death)

Quote:
"Even though Asumu-san......always acted like such an airhead......once she got her hands on Rudolf-san, she didn't let go. 'Do you have a problem with that? Please stay out of our way'...she'd say. ......And this coming from that little girl who would curl up into a ball every time she got on a bus."

".........At that point, I realized. ...She had been the truly cunning one. ......Yes, even her fear of vehicles was another lie to catch Rudolf-san's sympathy. ............"
Doesn't Asumu sound a bit like Yasuda? Timid, shy Shannon was actually a cunning one who tricked everyone with her acting skill to carry out a serial murder... at least on the gameboard.

Quote:
"For the sake of love, a woman should be willing to kill at least once in her life. ......I can tell you that all women in the world who call themselves mothers have been through that."
After all...
"Women who don't do that are chewed to bits by the others and forced to crawl through the hell of envy and regret for the rest of their lives. .........My hell lasted 18 years. ......I was lucky to be pardoned after just 18 years. ......That hell is still filled with women......who will never get out until they die. ......Unless they execute themselves in their regret."
This sort of support the idea that Yasuda could kill out of love... though personally I find more logic to kill your love rival than what Yasuda tried to do on the gameboard.

Then there's Rosa whose situation looks a lot like Yasuda even in the fact she knows that overcoming the trial might not mean she'll have the man she loves back but exactly because she has to go through a trial she can't let go of him.
And even through she tries to let her feeling to rest she can't.

Quote:
......Seeing him off with a smile was my victory? Of course not. It's as though I lost by default by refusing to fight when the time came. ...I only glorified that loss, ......saw him off with a smile as he went to take on the world overseas, and became intoxicated with the illusion that I was some brave woman waiting patiently for her man's return with her daughter. .........Even though, without a single call from him, mail sent to the address he had given me came back 'forwarding address unknown'..."
This part is expecially fitting, isn't it?

Then we've Maria. She doesn't say much apart from:

Quote:
"I won't let you get away now.........I won't forgive you...for the sin of stealing my Mama away... ......I'll kill you. ...Just like Mama killed the others, ...I'll kill you without mercy!!!"
It can match with someone killing for revenge during the Rokkenjima incident.

Hum... I don't really know what Natsuhi might have said that was meaningful. She just underlined how painful it was to wait far from her husband and how a perfect wife should be. Though Beato's acceptance of her love for Battler might mirror the fact Yasuda was forced to realize her love for Battler was stronger than the one for George... though there's another interesting thing.

On her own Beato couldn't kill Natsuhi. Battler had to help her.
This might underline the fact that Yasuda might have considered killing someone on Prime but actually wasn't capable to pull it out successfully.
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Old 2012-03-18, 19:55   Link #28170
Kealym
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I find EP 2 scenario with Beato on the gameboard very interesting though I'm curious if she really was there or if Kyrie and Rosa were bribed into saying they saw her.
At no point is a "Beatrice disguise" really necessary. The easiest explanation is that Kyrie and Rosa "saw her" in the sense that Shannon approached both of them and was like "Okay, here's the dealio." which probably invovled some promised money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, I'm sure Shannon killed on the gameboard. The problem is that the gameboard is fiction.
In fiction everyone can kill. The problem is "Would she be capable to do it in real life also?"
The game implied in the end she wasn't the real culprit in Prime. To use Kyrie's words is because she's a murderer who didn't get a chance (because on Prime something happened that stopped her from killing people) or because she's not capable/didn't plan to be a murderer?
Sorry, I should've been clear. I was responding, mostly, to an earlier post by GreyZone. I also don't think Yasu intended to murder 16 people in Prime... though admittedly, it was only a few lines in EP8 that finally made me think so.
Spoiler for Earlier post by GreyZone:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I mean, I don't know how much more plainly I can put it. Even if you think it's stupid, both Maria and Beatrice suffered equally immense amounts of pain from trying to invite others.
When ... did Beatrice ever try to invite someone else into the fold? Not saying she didn't want to, but she seemed, IIRC, iffy on the idea of even having Ange in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I never thought about Kyrie's words in EP6 as having been a possible hint about the incident in Oct. 1986. That's very interesting. And considering that the purpose of this game was for Battler to show that he understood Beatrice and her game... It makes plenty of sense that it would.
I think things might be getting mixed up here ... maybe I'm wrong, but the "murderer who didn't get the chance" bit was from her massacre in EP7, when she was basically telling Eva to get off her high horse. In EP6, Kyrie's bit was how she had achieved a miracle in Asumu's death, not in the fact that she was dead, but because "I didn't have to dirty my own hands doing it".

Also, while I'm slow to say "don't read too much into it", 'cause this IS Umineko, the sentiment of a killer who simply didn't get the chance is a sort of blanket statement about all of the humans. Hell, Jessica or even Godha are also murderers who just didn't have the motive and opportunity to murder people before someone went and asploded the island they were on.
Spoiler for stuff:

I wonder about Ryukishi, sometimes. That's all I can really say to that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Fake murders aside anyone consider that Yasuda wanted to make a catbox? That as long the truth is shut within the catbox that any future can exist. That even contradicting dreams can exist. Kanon and Shannon were talking about it at the during EP8 after Ange solves their riddles.

That Yasuda through Beatrice intended that everything on Rokenjima gets shut up within a catbox so that everyone can be happy with any future that is possible.
The last few EP's seemed to suggest this alot, and I personally ... tend to find the sentiment kind of ... appalling. And kinda selfish. It kinda takes all the negative aspects of "theese people's lives and future's have been extinguished" and swept it under a rug of "now I can have ALL the boyfriends (and Jessica, I guess), FOREVER!" I mean, that's a kind of dickish way of putting it, but that's all the catbox seems to accomplish.

... well, it also accomplishes theories about the entire family plus servants taking the gold to live wonderful lives of pleasure and splendor in palaces in Hawaii because screw Ange she'll be fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toku View Post
Although isn't it implied that Yasuda is a risk taker?

For example in the first twilight of the first game, that it was implied that Shannon hid among the bodies. That was immensely risky and everything could have been botched quite easily.

I could see that Yasuda places the letter while thinking Jessica with her extremely violent attitude would be most likely to barge in.
Good points. It's also worth noting that since not all 16 people are "in on it", it's also implied that Yasu has to have several different ways to progress prepared. So that letter COULD have been placed "just in case" someone went barging into the VIP room, and it's almost certain the only people to do so would've been Jessica or Battler. If noone goes to the room after the First Twilight, they probably wouldn't go there at all, so whatever. But if someone DOES go, you get nice troll-ish payoff.

Last edited by Kealym; 2012-03-18 at 21:59.
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Old 2012-03-18, 20:16   Link #28171
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
At no point is a "Beatrice disguise" really necessary. The easiest explanation is that Kyrie and Rosa "saw her" in the sense that Shannon approached both of them and was like "Okay, here's the dealio." which probably invovled some promised money.
I've considered this but why having two people seeing her? What did she need Kyrie for? Having Rosa seeing her was enough considering Rosa's claim can be backed up by Genji.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Sorry, I should've been clear. I was responding, mostly, to an earlier post by GreyZone. I also don't think Yasu intended to murder 16 people in Prime... though admittedly, it was only a few lines in EP8 that finally made me think so.
Oh okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
When ... did Beatrice ever try to invite someone else into the fold? Not saying she didn't want to, but she seemed, IIRC, iffy on the idea of even having Ange in it.
She claimed she wanted to invite Battler... though I'm not sure how to take it.
Maybe she meant she wanted to invite him once he would come back only he didn't... or that she wanted him to enthusiastically take part to her game only things turned sour (geez, Beato, I wonder why... it's not like you're murdering his family or something placing him in a lot of pain, tricking him and forcing his sister to live a miserable life... oh, ops, actually you are...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, while I'm slow to say "don't read too much into it", 'cause this IS Umineko, the sentiment of a killer who simply didn't get the chance is a sort of blanket statement about all of the humans. Hell, Jessica or even Godha are also murderers who just didn't have the motive and opportunity to murder people before someone went and asploded the island they were on.
Well, I think it was a statement meant to underline that darkness is inside each human's heart... and that each human has the potential to do it. Though I like to think each human also has the potential to stop himself from doing it.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
The last few EP's seemed to suggest this alot, and I personally ... tend to find the sentiment kind of ... appalling. And kinda selfish. It kinda takes all the negative aspects of "theese people's lives and future's have been extinguished" and swept it under a rug of "now I can have ALL the boyfriends (and Jessica, I guess), FOREVER!" I mean, that's a kind of dickish way of putting it, but that's all the catbox seems to accomplish.

... well, it also accomplishes theories about the entire family plus servants taking the gold to live wonderful lives of pleasure and splendor in palaces in Hawaii because screw Ange she'll be fine.
The only way to make this slightly less selfish is to think she might have thought that for Jessica and George losing their loved ones would have meant to go through hell like she did and Maria was already going through hell so she saw all this as... pity kills as twisted as it is.

As for the adults... I don't really think she cared about them.
Though it's possible she didn't care about George and Co either.

There are people who think that hey, it'll be cool if when they attempt suicide they'll also drag in a huge amount of people so they won't die alone so they kill their whole family, cause the building they live to explode or some other incident. Twisted but sadly it happens.
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Old 2012-03-18, 20:32   Link #28172
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
  • Anyone could have locked people in the shed and killed them in ep1; they had all night, and there's nothing that proves it was impossible for anybody to get together whatever was necessary.
Yeah, since Gohda was in the shed, the culprit could have gotten information about the shed and the key from him. No other servant culprits are needed.

However, I don't think that's the difficult part. The real trick was getting Eva and Hideyoshi to lie about how they left the family conference on the previous night.
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Old 2012-03-18, 20:41   Link #28173
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've considered this but why having two people seeing her? What did she need Kyrie for? Having Rosa seeing her was enough considering Rosa's claim can be backed up by Genji.
Well, who could say? Why bother having Rosa make a claim at all, since she already has six whole people who'll claim to see Beatrice, by default, anyways?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, I think it was a statement meant to underline that darkness is inside each human's heart... and that each human has the potential to do it. Though I like to think each human also has the potential to stop himself from doing it.
That's what I mean - I don't think it's so much a "this is a clue about the truth of 1986!" thing, as it is a statement about people, in general, and Kyrie calling someone out on it.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
However, I don't think that's the difficult part. The real trick was getting Eva and Hideyoshi to lie about how they left the family conference on the previous night.
Well, it's always possible that ... they went to bed earlier than the rest. I think the hard part is getting Hideyoshi to lie about Shannon being in the shed.
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Old 2012-03-18, 20:44   Link #28174
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Alright, please don't jump on me, because I posted this without reading your entire post, but one thing jumped out on me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym
(because on Prime something happened that stopped her from killing people)
Which events are you calling Prime? We know that certain people were unable to be killed, but does that really get rid of the entire Yasu Culprit Theory?
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Old 2012-03-18, 20:46   Link #28175
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, it's always possible that ... they went to bed earlier than the rest. I think the hard part is getting Hideyoshi to lie about Shannon being in the shed.
Is it really possible though? Remember that Rosa wanted to leave before the final conference even began, except Krauss dragged her back. Presumably, she wanted to be with Maria when she woke up the next morning (remember, Maria always throws a tantrum when Rosa isn't there). Also, Rosa actually fell asleep without meaning to earlier that day, so she can't be well-rested.

If Eva got tired and went to bed (leaving the other siblings to decide the fate of the family without her), is it really likely that Rosa would choose to stay?
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Old 2012-03-18, 22:19   Link #28176
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Which events are you calling Prime? We know that certain people were unable to be killed, but does that really get rid of the entire Yasu Culprit Theory?
.
Oh, whoops - that was me quoting a post by jjblue1. I've edited the post to be correct. To answer, though, a Yasu-Culprit theory works as well as any -other- culprit theory for Prime, I guess, though I think she didn't kill anyone. I DO think she's culpable, it's just impossible to say how much.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Is it really possible though? Remember that Rosa wanted to leave before the final conference even began, except Krauss dragged her back. Presumably, she wanted to be with Maria when she woke up the next morning (remember, Maria always throws a tantrum when Rosa isn't there). Also, Rosa actually fell asleep without meaning to earlier that day, so she can't be well-rested.

If Eva got tired and went to bed (leaving the other siblings to decide the fate of the family without her), is it really likely that Rosa would choose to stay?
Well, it's also possible Evayoshi was in on it really early, and were simply instructed to leave the conference at some point. Eva does mention that Genji would corroborate that she retired to the guesthouse around midnight, but geez, Genji's word is worth, like, diddly squat jack. I will say, though, that Eva is the only person besides Krauss who throws around "power" in their family talks - unlike Rosa who was bullied back, if Eva decided to leave, I doubt anyone would stop her. And maybe Rosa tried to follow suit shortly after, but then Shannon showed up in her thigh-high stripey socks and things got crazy.
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Old 2012-03-19, 10:32   Link #28177
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
...Except, the fact that it uses a phrase like "intellectual night" in a letter that sounds like it was written by a schoolyard bully doesn't seem to make sense. The author's idea of "intellectual" is apparently "Now, their bellies are full in the land of sweets!", which makes no sense, unless it's a subtle jab that's far too subtle for me to understand.

In other words, the culprit is either insane beyond the point of rational thought, or they intentionally included the words "intellectual night" for some other reason.
Could it be in order to mock the original letter writer? That makes no sense unless you presume the writers are different, but when you think about it in that light it's certainly possible.

A more casual, aggressive writer with less of a penchant for cleverness mockingly derides everyone for wasting their time on that "intellectual night." Just needs airquotes around it to sound sarcastic, in fact.
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
What I'm saying is, regardless of whether you wanna think Piece!Shannon can be a murderer, there are six dead Ushiromiya's with candy in their gullets, so unless their deaths were a heroic sacrifice to save us all from the candy-spawning explosive-stomach-flu, there's a fox in the hen house among the humans. And NONE of the 18 (except, maybe, Kinzo) are very openly displayed to be terrible, serial murder type people.
Or, you know, she didn't kill them at the candy party, and they all agreed to play dead/get drugged and were murdered by someone else. And she then took the blame for it, because scapegoating herself is within her personality.

I think Chronotrig's point is that it's unusual that the First Twilights can be read both ways, and possibly important. Will's answers work and are functional. But are they the only, or even the right, answer?
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Originally Posted by Toku View Post
I never thought about Kyrie's words in EP6 as having been a possible hint about the incident in Oct. 1986. That's very interesting. And considering that the purpose of this game was for Battler to show that he understood Beatrice and her game... It makes plenty of sense that it would.
If we take Kyrie at face value in ep6, she raises an interesting point that Jessica brushes off, mainly because Jessica doesn't really understand it (having never been in Kyrie's position):

If you were willing to commit a crime, and perhaps if you even intended to commit a crime accepting all its consequences, but through contrivance of circumstance the crime becomes unnecessary and you never go through with it, are you still guilty?

Legally, of course, you are not guilty of the crime itself (you might still be guilty of a conspiracy, but we'll leave the technicality aside). To use Kyrie's example while taking her story as true, she didn't murder Asumu. But she clearly feels guilty as if she had. Assuming she isn't lying, this guilt is irrational; she has nothing to apologize for in terms of actual actions she took.

However... is she not perhaps right to feel guilt? As she sees it, had Asumu not coincidentally died, she would have killed her. She was resolved to that. It was going to happen. In a way, it's like she did murder her... and got away with it, since something intervened to do the job for her.

Not all people want to get away with it. The charge of the message bottle to "find the truth" certainly seems to me like the words of a person who doesn't want to get away with it, but may have for one reason or another. The catbox may be unintentional, but to BATTLER, it's also something which permits Beatrice to exist, so he seeks to preserve it for her sake. It's a selfish motive, yes, but from his perspective it's understandable. However, Beatrice's goals or desires may not be the same anymore as her creator's at this point.
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Although isn't it implied that Yasuda is a risk taker?

For example in the first twilight of the first game, that it was implied that Shannon hid among the bodies. That was immensely risky and everything could have been botched quite easily.
She (and Beatrice) says she's a risk-taker. Evidence suggests she merely prefers the appearance of risk, when in fact she's plotting things from the start. "Risk" would not suggest using well-blackmailed accomplices, something Our Confession heavily sells.
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, it's always possible that ... they went to bed earlier than the rest. I think the hard part is getting Hideyoshi to lie about Shannon being in the shed.
Comedy Option: Hideyoshi knows George did it and is lying (either of his own initiative or after consultation with Kanon) to gauge George's reaction to a fact he knows to be untrue (Shannon isn't in there and George knows it). George counters with a question about the ring in an attempt to trip Hideyoshi up. Hideyoshi answers in a fashion that suggests Shannon accepted his proposal when, perhaps, she actually rejected it, so George knows his father is intentionally lying and feels compelled to kill him later.
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Old 2012-03-19, 12:08   Link #28178
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
The last few EP's seemed to suggest this alot, and I personally ... tend to find the sentiment kind of ... appalling. And kinda selfish. It kinda takes all the negative aspects of "theese people's lives and future's have been extinguished" and swept it under a rug of "now I can have ALL the boyfriends (and Jessica, I guess), FOREVER!" I mean, that's a kind of dickish way of putting it, but that's all the catbox seems to accomplish.
Yeah but it is something that I could see Yasuda doing. More so if there is the rationalization that the adults can also have a happy future within the caxbox. From that perspective isn't Yasuda doing everyone a favor?

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I think the hard part is getting Hideyoshi to lie about Shannon being in the shed.
While the trick could best pulled off he did lie but did he really?

Couldn't he just be so appalled by the sight of everyone's mangled faces that he did not pay much attention to Shannon expect taking a glance on on hers fingers.

Shannon doing something like Jigsaw in Saw where she wears an excessive amount of bloody makeup could easily mistake her for a corpse considering that she is among corpses.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She (and Beatrice) says she's a risk-taker. Evidence suggests she merely prefers the appearance of risk, when in fact she's plotting things from the start. "Risk" would not suggest using well-blackmailed accomplices, something Our Confession heavily sells.[/color]
A risk taker is someone who intentionally exposes themsleves to the chance of loss. Not just leaving everything to luck/chance without planning anything. You can call that taking calculated risk if you will.

Besides Will the detective said that it was risky to pull off the trick. Yasuda could not really entirely predict how George would react. It was very possible that he would enter the shed in grief and notice that she is not dead.
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Old 2012-03-19, 12:20   Link #28179
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Besides Will the detective said that it was risky to pull off the trick. Yasuda could not really entirely predict how George would react. It was very possible that he would enter the shed in grief and notice that she is not dead.
Hmm... now that you say it... that would mean that "Clair" had no influence on the events...

So this would mean that Clair =/= Beatrice, because Beatrice could control George's actions as long as they were not "out of character".

...... Ahhhhhhh now i get it! Clair is the Piece!Yasu from the games! She has nothing to do with Beatrice's Meta-Battle with Battler. This would explain why she seems so different and why not simply Beatrice was used instead of Clair.
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Old 2012-03-19, 13:25   Link #28180
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Or, you know, she didn't kill them at the candy party, and they all agreed to play dead/get drugged and were murdered by someone else. And she then took the blame for it, because scapegoating herself is within her personality.

I think Chronotrig's point is that it's unusual that the First Twilights can be read both ways, and possibly important. Will's answers work and are functional. But are they the only, or even the right, answer?
Is it possible that Piece!Shannon was innocent ... and then ... committed later murders, in order to protect the innocence of the FIRST murderer? I guess I can't actually deny that with anything.

The EP2 first twilight was just a random example though - my point is that despite most of the characters seeming like mostly decent enough people, we have a lot of corpses to account for, so somebody on the gameboard is being presented as capable of some rather wacky antics. As for it being the "right" answer, most of what we've been given leads to some form of "Shannon and Kanon" being the "intended" answer. Of course other options will be functional, too, but wasn't this covered a bunch in EP5, with the cheese riddle, and anti-Natsuhi conspiracy?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Comedy Option: Hideyoshi knows George did it and is lying (either of his own initiative or after consultation with Kanon) to gauge George's reaction to a fact he knows to be untrue (Shannon isn't in there and George knows it). George counters with a question about the ring in an attempt to trip Hideyoshi up. Hideyoshi answers in a fashion that suggests Shannon accepted his proposal when, perhaps, she actually rejected it, so George knows his father is intentionally lying and feels compelled to kill him later.
Oh goodness, sure, why not? Does Kanon have a place in this setup? XD

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Yeah but it is something that I could see Yasuda doing. More so if there is the rationalization that the adults can also have a happy future within the caxbox. From that perspective isn't Yasuda doing everyone a favor?
From that perspective, perhaps. Doesn't make it not AWFUL, still.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
While the trick could best pulled off he did lie but did he really?

Couldn't he just be so appalled by the sight of everyone's mangled faces that he did not pay much attention to Shannon expect taking a glance on on hers fingers.

Shannon doing something like Jigsaw in Saw where she wears an excessive amount of bloody makeup could easily mistake her for a corpse considering that she is among corpses.
Well, it's possible, I guess. And the trick does feel more rewarding if it involved less blatant lying. However, I always took the red Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! rather generally, as something like a fake corpse seems more ... complex than Beatrice usually goes for. Like how all of the locked door situations are very simple, and never involved peculiar tricks with wires or string or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Besides Will the detective said that it was risky to pull off the trick. Yasuda could not really entirely predict how George would react. It was very possible that he would enter the shed in grief and notice that she is not dead.
What with the author theory, that was a real standout line. One the one hand, he's kinda right - if we take her confession to the adults in EP7 to be true-ish, she was prepared to lose by coincidence or bad luck. At the same time, since the entire thing is written .... well, it's like, George will surely never enter that shed, just like the police will never come. If the author doesn't want to take the story that way, after all.
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