AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-04-01, 13:50   Link #28301
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
@UsagiTenpura: Well ok. The only thing i wanted to say is that in chiru magic was shown in a much more positive light, compared to EP1-4 and that EP1 was different to EP2-4 because the fantasy scenes were at least "less obivious" and there was no META till the TP.
I agree with everything else you said.
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-01, 17:29   Link #28302
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I always had the impression that Battler solved it thanks to bouncing his ideas to Erika and vice-versa.
That's not really how it's presented since Battler offered his solutions and Erika confirmed them. Battler exposes his reasoning and erika praises him and says 'yes, I also thought so...'. Though since Bern is controlling both Battler & Erika to her having the two of them discuss would likely sound like having a monologue with two different voices so it's likely she chose to have Battler do all the deducing and Erika confirm it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Ah yes, it has been a while since I read that episode. IIRC wasn't one of the red truth that an autopsy would have not mistaken the corpses. It would seem extremely difficult to fake wouldn't it?
Yes, the trick is that they lied in saying they saw George and Co had their throats sliced, not that they mistaked them for dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Yes that is what I have been saying. Beatrice designed the game that there would be evidence and found it for Battler. Battler just had to be 2 and 2 together.
The point is not necessarily the solution Battler found is the right one, only one that can be accepted. There were other instances in which Beato had to accept Battler's theories even if they weren't right because denying them with red would give him more hints that she was willing to give.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I don't know. Somehow the idea that Piece Yasuda would have no means of seeing who solves the epitaph seems unlikely if you consider the vast amount of preperation put into the crimes. More so that like in EP7 Tea Party that Yasuda is prone to hide in the same area as the gold until she proceeds to commit more murders.

Although the two theories do make sense.
It's unknown if people can keep under control who enters in the room with the gold (in EP 7 Genji joined Yasuda pretty soon so it's possible that... let's say in Kinzo's room a bell ring if someone enters in the room of the gold). Through it's possible that, since she also had to play the role of dead person she couldn't go check the gold as soon as Eva discovered it or keep under control the entrance to the room with the gold while in EP 7 she had finished her duties and could sit there and wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
No it does not, the game was made in such way that Eva is made to be the culprit going as far to call the witch of the game "Eva-Beatrice". However certain parts of the game were designed that Battler could not solve it by only using "Eva is the culprit" theory. It would make sense that it is part of the answer but not all of it.
Nope. The game is done in such a way so that Eva would look the culprit in place of the real culprit. The same was done in EP 5 where Natsuhi was purposely depicted as a suspicious person, in EP 6 where the murderer were George, Jessica, Shannon, Kanon, Battler and Beato, in EP 2 was possible to suspect Rosa, in EP 4 the game tried to make Kinzo look at the culprit while in EP 1 it was Natsuhi again that was suspicious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Indeed, although I suspect that she might have unwittingly caused a greater incident. While EP7 tea party is dubious at best, I do suspect that Eva played a similar role within Prime. Maybe did not literally shoot someone but possibly did something to spark the incident.
As Eva is shown shooting at someone by mistake twice I've always thought this had happened. Though the point whould be if she had killed that person or merely injured it (in EP 3 Jessica is just wounded, in Ep 7 Natsuhi dies). I don't know though if this can have caused everyone to start shooting.

So far the most logic explanation is that a mystery game was started and some took the dead for real and went paranoid... which is also a theme through the episodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
That is the thing though. If Battler and Eva both were told a way to avoid the explosives, what caused them to separate? The most likely answer is that Eva or Battler did not trust the other.
Not necessarily they learnt about the explosives and then tried to escape together.
It's possible that the epitaph was solved and they learnt about the explosive then something happened and someone turned on the bomb. They reached it in different times but couldn't turn it off so they both tried to escape.
Or it's possible that let's say Eva escaped for first, Battler was supposed to join her but took the wrong turn and since he never showed up she assumed he died.

A third theory would be they (or one of them) tried to reach Kuwadorian without knowing about the explosive.

There were more theories going around but those are the first 3 that came to my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I think that makes more sense as well but we are talking about within the context of the story. Maria during one of her "witch" moments are not portrayed as a different character altogether. Even "Jessie" is not either. I am not sure how that comparison holds.
During her witch moments Maria's character switch from sweet, childish kid to a creepy and cold one that could care less about people dying around her.

Battler is rather surprised when he sees this happening the first time.

Though Jessica explains it not as Maria having two personality but Maria wanting to look in a certain way and compares this to her Jessica and her Jessie personas.
'Jessica' is the one that does (well, tried to do) what her parents want her to do while Jessie is the one that does what she wants. The difference between Shannon and Beato is merely more marked because Shannon is better at fulfilling other expectations (she'll probably be fired if she wasn't) but what she really wants to be differs a lot from what she has to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
The only character who has something comparable is Eva whose inner self becomes separated once she becomes a "witch"(sound similar?).
That's because again there's a big difference between the two. One represents the ruthless side of Eva and the other the more caring, more motherly one.
In fact after Eva's personality split her character becomes gentler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Also keep in mind Claire's "we are one but many", Yasuda's gender identity, and how the whole incident snowballed when "she become a witch". I do not think that Kannon, Shannon and Beatrice are masks but rather personas that tother compose Yasuda.
I call them masks as neither of them is the whole but each of them is a face she wear according to the situation.
Yasu wanted to prank Jessica when she denied the existence of Beatrice... but as her maid she couldn't allow herself the luxury. In a fashion the duality between Shannon and Beatrice is similar to the one of a masked superhero who's protecting his secret identity acting in a certain way.
Don't forget Yasu was forced to work for the Ushiromiya from when she was a child and to learn pretty fast how to act in a way that would please her masters... and that basically denied her wishes if she wanted to be accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I agree. I suppose you could call that hoping for best case scenario despite nigh-impossible odds.

A slightly cynical person would consider that to be foolish dreaming that borders on living in a fantasy.
It's more like buying a lottery ticket. You might win though it's most likely you will lose. However there's nothing wrong in buying a lottery ticket as long as you don't quit on working and start acting as you would win for sure.

And Ange was lucky enough to buy the winning ticket as her brother was actually alive.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-02, 01:20   Link #28303
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Multiple personality syndrome has vastly different portrayals within fictional works. Even in psychology is a debatable if it really exists. Ryukishi use of it is pretty common in fiction.

That troubled people have multiple personalities to deal with difficulties. This is made most clearly within Umineko within EP6. That "Mother" had all of her love transfered into "Beatrice" becasue she was unable to love Battler any longer.
That's not actually true. You're not taking into account that Ryukishi is depicting these entities as being entirely under Yasu's control to the extent that she can rewrite their personalities and memories, control who's in control, share all information between them with no memory loss, and keep all of them from interfering with big, elaborate, complex plans.

MPD doesn't work like that even in fiction. The fact that she can rewrite these entities as if she was playing pretend is a huge indication that this is exactly what she's doing.

Quote:
Also keep in mind Claire's "we are one but many", Yasuda's gender identity, and how the whole incident snowballed when "she become a witch". I do not think that Kannon, Shannon and Beatrice are masks but rather personas that tother compose Yasuda.
"I am one but many" is a quote from Puss n'Boots, regarding a character that had to keep up multiple appearances in order to get what he wanted. Puss n'Boots didn't have multiple personalities.

Yasu doesn't have Multiple Personalities, even by fictional standards.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-02, 09:00   Link #28304
Remon
Ordinary Magician
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 22
I agree with Aura on this one. All that thing about modifying her personalities, that's not how multiple personalities work. Then it would be fantasy. Also doesn't it violate the 4th?
It is forbidden for unknown mental disorders or mental alteration abilities to exist!
__________________
Remon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-02, 11:00   Link #28305
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
There is also no indication whatsoever that this "Yasu" person is not herself a character created by a higher-order fictional author. That is, "Yasu" may just be the author's fictionalized version of herself and a metaphor for the ways she deals with her many ideas and inventions. The author of the message bottles and Beatrice in Our Confession decidedly has a very methodical and careful approach. That suggests she plans and role-orients her creations very deliberately. That's entirely inconsistent with the notion of having any sort of mental disorder.

I think "real Beatrice" is entirely sane, and may even be overstating her emotions a bit just for dramatic effect. That's not to say she doesn't feel them, but they may not be as singularly driving as one might imagine.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-02, 12:24   Link #28306
Toku
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
I'd just like to bring up something I found that potentially does seem to work this way. (keep in mind that while this does seem to have been tested and studied by a number of people, for example Carl Jung, I don't think it's 100% proven or anything of the sort)

There's apparently a phenomenon whereby, if you spend enough time visualizing a character and interacting with them as if they were real, you will begin to be able to hear them talk to you in your mind without you putting words in their mouth. In other words, in your mind, they'll become real. Which, from a strictly scientific perspective, is an induced hallucination. But you could say it's like partitioning your mind. And, as far as I know, the original personality remains in control (all you'd have to do to get rid of the additional personalities is to stop paying them any attention). It takes a lot of time to "convince yourself" that they are real though, but that depends on how mentally stable you are in the first place. Yasu isn't insane, but I don't think she's completely mentally stable either, by any means. And from what I hear, it's even possible to go beyond this and induce hallucinations on all 5 of your senses, which really makes them completely real for you. But that takes much longer.

Anyway, it's called a Tulpa, and it's originally a Buddhist concept, but I don't know if the Buddhist concept is exactly the same as what I just said.

But, this is all a really "loveless" way of putting it. From Yasu's perspective, they are real. And it does kind of fit perfectly with most things in Umineko. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EP6
From this day forward, you will no longer be me.
From this day forward, I will no longer be you.
The two of us will split apart a single soul and share it.
And though, of course, neither of us will possess a complete soul...
I'm sure our dreams will be more numerous than those of humans.

Let us be blessed......

My dear...Beatrice...

No one will be able to see your form.
However, I alone can see you.
And if you are loved by many people...
I'm sure that everyone will be able to see you someday.

With love, they will be able to see us......
Anyway, I know that there's no proof that this is what it is. It's just speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
Toku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-02, 12:27   Link #28307
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There is also no indication whatsoever that this "Yasu" person is not herself a character created by a higher-order fictional author. That is, "Yasu" may just be the author's fictionalized version of herself and a metaphor for the ways she deals with her many ideas and inventions. The author of the message bottles and Beatrice in Our Confession decidedly has a very methodical and careful approach. That suggests she plans and role-orients her creations very deliberately. That's entirely inconsistent with the notion of having any sort of mental disorder.

I think "real Beatrice" is entirely sane, and may even be overstating her emotions a bit just for dramatic effect. That's not to say she doesn't feel them, but they may not be as singularly driving as one might imagine.
Finally reaching that point, where realizing that its very common for authors to make characters based on them, and completely crazy to make a mystery murder based on people you know with yourself as culprit ?
Damn that'd be great...
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-02, 13:57   Link #28308
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
There's apparently a phenomenon whereby, if you spend enough time visualizing a character and interacting with them as if they were real, you will begin to be able to hear them talk to you in your mind without you putting words in their mouth. In other words, in your mind, they'll become real. Which, from a strictly scientific perspective, is an induced hallucination. But you could say it's like partitioning your mind. And, as far as I know, the original personality remains in control (all you'd have to do to get rid of the additional personalities is to stop paying them any attention). It takes a lot of time to "convince yourself" that they are real though, but that depends on how mentally stable you are in the first place. Yasu isn't insane, but I don't think she's completely mentally stable either, by any means. And from what I hear, it's even possible to go beyond this and induce hallucinations on all 5 of your senses, which really makes them completely real for you. But that takes much longer.

Anyway, it's called a Tulpa, and it's originally a Buddhist concept, but I don't know if the Buddhist concept is exactly the same as what I just said.
Actually, I'm glad you brought this up; I've done it myself in order to develop characters I write about, so I know it can be done. It's an absolute dead ringer for what Yasu is doing, even if Ryukishi never heard of it.

Though I will go off on a tangent and mention that you're misappropriating the word Tulpa. It translates to "Thoughtform", and is a supernatural concept where one creates something through pure will and discipline alone, often times to create an 'artificial spirit'. It was believed that Tulpas could effect the physical world, so Taoists and Onmyoji would sic them on people as attack dog-esque curses.

A really neato example in parapsychology involved a group who were going to hold a seance, but the ghost they tried to contact was something they made up. His name, his sketched appearance, his backround, everything.

...And they allegedly got answers, freaking everyone out.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-02, 14:11   Link #28309
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Well, it would certainly explain, why Yasu says it is "magic".
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 02:31   Link #28310
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
I don't remember to what length I discussed this before, but what do people think of Will=Touya? I think it fits pretty well thematically with Will being intimately knowledgeable of the fictions and the Ushiromiyas without being too interested in them, and the sense that he was trapped with them and forced to solve the mystery (by Bernkastel no less, who I think could just as easily be called "the goddess of unlikely fortune" as "the witch of miracles"). Also, with Ikuko=Yasu, it could explain where Touya gets his theater-going authority.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 08:34   Link #28311
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Hello and Question

Hello everyone, long time reader and first time poster.

Firstly I just wanted to thank you all for such interesting posts previously. I have only really scratched the surface in terms of backreading (so sorry if I ask something already mentioned), but they have gone a long way to deepening my understanding. Or at least entertaining me.

Anyway, down to the question.
Ryűkishi07 in his often cited interview makes some pretty strong statements about Yasu being the culprit. A lot of people pointed out this doesn't match with the game text basically implying that Beatrice as a culprit had the same motivation as Eva as culprit, namely protecting Ange. Pre Umineko I would have noted this inconsistency, then glossed over this and waited to be spoonfed the answer. This almost always lead to me later kicking myself for missing an important plot-point because I couldn't be bothered thinking about it (which Umineko then called me on before shaming me like so much rabid goat butler). With this in mind, has anyone actually tried compiling a theory where the Ryu's logic all holds together? I.e.
- Yasu was willing to kill everybody
- Beatrice was a (self?) scapegoat to protect Ange
- Ange needed to be protected from some aspect of the truth of the incident
- Eva was not the sole/main culprit

Sorry for long post, but after reading so many hundreds of pages I have so much opinion stored up.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 08:42   Link #28312
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Welcome! It's good to have some "fresh air" in our community, as we lately only reapeated ourselves in cycles and no one posted the last 3 days at all...

I am not sure how i am supposed to understand your 4 points though. Can you please specify whether you mean the "gameboard" or "Rokkenjima prime"?
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 08:42   Link #28313
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Yay for double post

It should be noted I am am willing to ignore for the moment that maybe Yasu's personality splitting doesn't exist in real life (that one is for Aura).

Other important notes are that Ep 5 gave us a pretty good example of Beatrice scapegoating for the whole cliff-pushing incident, and how that possibly might apply to Beatrice scapegoating for Yasu. Though this is a rather tenuous idea.


Also just because I have always wanted to say this:
Yes, Yasu's motivations do not seem realistic for the normal person, however given the extensive emotional trauma she (according to the possibly unreliable 7th game manga translation) has lived through, it may not be very love-filled of us to compare her mental state to yours or mine. Or at least yours.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 08:44   Link #28314
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
And I apologise, I mean R-Prime. The gameboards I accept as individual episodes wherein not all truths must apply at once.

My four points are loosely based off what Ryu has stated in his interview, and what I believe he tried to convey in his novels.
Though I guess taking into account Ep 5's Beatrice scapegoating was purely Natsuhi avoiding guilt, maybe Beatrice doesn't really have to be a scapegoat for anyone....
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 09:04   Link #28315
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
OK, I'll try adressing your points 1 by 1.


-Yasu is not willing to kill anybody at all in Prime. R07 never specified whether he ment culprit-Yasu for Prime or for the gameboards

-Beatrice is a scapegoat for putting Yasu as the culprit in all the forgeries, as that is essentially "herself". Her reason to do so could be the "paranoid-theory", that an innocent murder mystery game, with people just faking deaths, lead to uninvolved people misunderstanding this and thinking they all really died and started murdering for real. And of course that is a reason for Beatrice to feel guilty.

-There was never an indication that Ikuko/Tohya tried to protect Ange from anything. EP8 BATTLER/Beato are just in Ange's head... probably...
The only one really trying to protect Ange is Eva, because she possibly saw Kyrie shooting someone else. Maybe Kyrie only acted in self defense, but Eva misunderstood, or maybe Kyrie just went paranoid because of the muder mystery game.

-Yes, maybe Eva didn't kill anyone at all or maybe she did out of self-defense/paranoia. Paranoid-Theory still has not been disapproved.


Well this is only my own opinion. If there are some points you disagree with, you are free to state them of course.
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 10:11   Link #28316
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
It may be possible that Yasu did not kill in prime, however the interview comment about her willingness was in response to the comments about the message bottles and the letters, which were stated as being sent beforehand.

Even acknowledging that it is often debated whether or not the bottles were sent beforehand, and assuming Ryu just decided to ignore this assumption (I somehow picture him making some cryptic comment about being so sure of timelines, or "maybe the actions seem so suspicious because they are" or something), it is pretty certain the letters were sent before the incident and catbox.

This means that Ryu's comments about Yasu being ready to do it but wanting to be stopped likely referred to any world where she sent the money out beforehand, in this case R-prime.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 10:15   Link #28317
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Furthermore, looking at this segment:

K His image changes wether you base your idea of him on the Kinz˘ in EP7 or EP8.

R The Kinz˘ that Ange expected and the Kinz˘ that Battler wanted her to see are quite different as well.

Sort of heavily implies that Battler was pulling the strings of Ep8's kind Kinzo. I am not sure what spanner this throws into the already complex meta meta logic that is floating around.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 10:31   Link #28318
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
This means that Ryu's comments about Yasu being ready to do it but wanting to be stopped likely referred to any world where she sent the money out beforehand, in this case R-prime.
We don't actually know that money ever went out at all in R-Prime. That all happened to ep4 Ange, whose adventures may have been fictional. It's still possible that it happened, but it would be basically impossible to confirm.

He's lied or been cryptic in interviews before. For one thing, he somewhat dances around exactly what it is Yasu is resolved to do at times anyway. We may be drawing inferences to the idea that she's committed to mass murder in the Prime setting that don't actually exist. Not to mention that Battler seems to think she's innocent on some greater level in ep8.

If you earnestly suspect he's chosen to directly contradict the actual text, I'm not sure what to tell you. You either believe the text or you believe what the author said in those cases. I think it's more that he's either dodging around the issue, teasing, or outright trolling. Or is an idiot. I suppose that can't ever be eliminated.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 10:42   Link #28319
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
I would like to believe he is neither an idiot nor contradicting himself, but I do appreciate stranger things have happened. I guess I am basing it on the fact that he stated that with deep enough reasoning you can reach the truth beyond doubt of the catbox, and this was not a dodge. Furthermore, once we have the correct pieces, you can usually create a single answer to his games that covers all major questions, I'd be happy to see one theory with some evidence that does that, even if Yasu isn't the culprit.

In a further and unrelated question, was it in one of the games or on here that I read that as any theories denying the use of the window to escape the sealed room in the wedding episode (EP 6 I guess?) did not create a logic error, there must be another way to do it?

Also unrelated but on my mind, in regards to the Bern Murder mystery of Ep 8 (oh how I enjoyed that) was there anyone else who went with George culprit theory first? I did, even though it isn't as neat as the Battler theory, because otherwise you hit a logic error:

It is stated in purple by George that "no one could kill Doctor Nanjo inside the guesthouse!" but also in white true narration that "Nanjo was killed in the entrance hall to the guest house", though this may have been a translation error. My reasoning faltered though when I justified this by stating he killed a person by denying Kanon (or proposing to Shannon).
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 11:05   Link #28320
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Also, this may be a soft logic point, but regarding Ange's Ep 4 adventures, I suppose at some point we have to draw the line at what we can trust or we can't reason anything. Though I guess sadly the manga supports the fictional theory, as it has Ange taking her skyscraper dive and becoming two people: Ange who goes to the island, and Ange-Beatrice who travels to the Meta-world (though the translation of the explanation of this seems to be wrong when it first occurs). The reason this supports the fictional theory is Ange-Beatrice watches other Ange's adventures through the windows of the tea-room, just the same as she watches the games on the game-board.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.