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Old 2012-04-15, 10:42   Link #28441
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Well if EP1 was Eva playing a murder game...

I still don't know if it answers the "paradox" in EP2. I'm still absolutely disgusted by EP2's first twilight, and no matter how "satisfying" the motive, I still think it's horrible that someone may have actually done that to them...
I've always wondered if 'that' was done for real.
Though Beato challenged him to do it, Battler actually didn't check the bodies.
So if she poisoned them then covered their stomachs with candies and the insides of animals and she tossed some animal intestines on the ground she wouldn't have had the need to cut them open.

At first glance he wouldn't probably recognize the difference between... let's say a pig's intestine and a human one. Actually probably he wouldn't recognize it not even after an attentive exam so the only thing he could check is if the stomach were cut... which he didn't check.
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Old 2012-04-15, 11:11   Link #28442
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It's still a disgusting desecration of the bodies, though, however it was done.

Honestly, I really do kind of think Ryukishi is a pretty sick person when I read stuff like that. I do love his work but he goes way over the top with stuff like that and it's completely unnecessary. Actually, it kind of detracts from it in all honesty - I think people would be more ready to accept the motive if the murders were done in a more reasonable fashion.

On the other hand, it did make for a pretty awesome moment in EP3 when Battler complained to Beatrice about the exact same thing. It kind of felt like the author was criticising himself, teehee. And there weren't actually any particularly gory murders in any of the episodes after that part, so maybe he really was responding to reader criticism.
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Old 2012-04-15, 11:30   Link #28443
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
It's still a disgusting desecration of the bodies, though, however it was done.

Honestly, I really do kind of think Ryukishi is a pretty sick person when I read stuff like that. I do love his work but he goes way over the top with stuff like that and it's completely unnecessary. Actually, it kind of detracts from it in all honesty - I think people would be more ready to accept the motive if the murders were done in a more reasonable fashion.

On the other hand, it did make for a pretty awesome moment in EP3 when Battler complained to Beatrice about the exact same thing. It kind of felt like the author was criticising himself, teehee. And there weren't actually any particularly gory murders in any of the episodes after that part, so maybe he really was responding to reader criticism.
Well, theoretically, if Rosa was supposed to believe the first twilight was fake this would work way better than what was done in EP 1. Surely it probably grossed her out but she could believe this was just make up and actually all the siblings were alive and faking being death.

I wonder if Ryukishi merely wrote what he believed his fans wanted to read when he wrote such gory scenes. Higurashi had some pretty ugly deaths as well...
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Old 2012-04-15, 12:24   Link #28444
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The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

So they were definitly dead. But of course it doesn't prevent anyone from changing the sceneary after that.

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-04-15 at 12:48.
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Old 2012-04-15, 13:03   Link #28445
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Well, yeah, they're dead, but what jjblue is saying is that Rosa could have convinced herself they weren't, and thus still gone along with the fake murder plan despite the victims actually being dead.

Which is almost certainly what happened, honestly.
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Old 2012-04-15, 13:46   Link #28446
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, yeah, they're dead, but what jjblue is saying is that Rosa could have convinced herself they weren't, and thus still gone along with the fake murder plan despite the victims actually being dead.

Which is almost certainly what happened, honestly.

Exactly. If we pick EP 4 we know Kumasawa and Gohda were lying about how the first twilight took place... so they could have thought the first twilight didn't happen at all.
In Ep 3 also it's possible the adults believed the servants were faking and that it was all a game.
The only one in which it's really hard to believe it is EP 1 as it seems difficult if not outright impossible to exchange those corpses for people faking their death so who covered up the fact that Shannon wasn't among them should have been aware they weren't involved in a game... unless Shannon gained their complicity through other means (for example they believed her innocent and she suggested them to fake her death saying in this case the true culprit would say something along the line of : 'but I didn't kill Shannon too') but somehow it seems hard to believe.
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Old 2012-04-15, 16:17   Link #28447
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Originally Posted by Ikuko View Post
Has anyone here watched this? What do you guys think?
While I do not agree with him on certain parts, I have to admit that hear a view on the the games without trying to use Shakonnatircie theory is interesting.

Plus 1:47:00 in the first part with the "gollem" theory was pretty funny

As well that his solution to the logic error and interpretation on the love duel was interesting.

What comes to mind is the whole "cheese slices" riddle on EP6 that while there is an "official answer" but with enough thinking you can come up with a more complicated answer. I do think that the guy in the youtube video is a good example of that. I am surprised that he did not bring that up during his "author tricking us" rant.


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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It may be common knowledge that Eva was found at the Kuwadorian (she sure as heck wasn't found at Guest House), but Tohya's Banquet is stated to be the first notable forgery that includes her escape to it in it's narrative, IIRC. What really kinda confuses me is that in her absolute refusal to say ANYTHING, Eva also refused to call out the first two stories as the silly, silly lies they were?
A popular notion is that Eva was hiding the truth because she was protecting someone(George/Ange) but couldn't it be that she just didn't want to ever talk about the horrible events to strangers or to her little niece?

The incident ought to be immensely traumatic and her welcome from the incident (life without her family and the constant suspicion) only made things worse. It is not surprising that like most victims who underwent a traumatic event, refuses to talk about it. Especially not to people who she does not really care about.

If she knew that culprit died and any evidence of who the culprit was destroyed on the island due to explosives. What would she gain from revealing the truth and why would people believe her who either were bent on making her the culprit or coming up with crazy ideas about what happened?


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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
It's still a disgusting desecration of the bodies, though, however it was done.

Honestly, I really do kind of think Ryukishi is a pretty sick person when I read stuff like that. I do love his work but he goes way over the top with stuff like that and it's completely unnecessary. Actually, it kind of detracts from it in all honesty - I think people would be more ready to accept the motive if the murders were done in a more reasonable fashion.
I thought it worked pretty well in the fist game. That you get the impression that there is some malicious will that engulfed the story which contrasts the cheerful feeling on the first part of the story. Most of all I found the scenes where Battler contemplates that the murderer is likely in the same room and where "Beatrice" placed the letter in Kinzo's office was pretty daunting.

I do think that when the story focused mainly on mystery rather than horror, that the brutality lessened.

Although I do think the most disturbing aspect of Umineko was in the end of EP4 where Battler is left all alone to wander around. Only to pass the time by examining at the corpses of his relatives. That is a rather nightmarish scenario to imagine.
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Old 2012-04-15, 20:45   Link #28448
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, yeah, they're dead, but what jjblue is saying is that Rosa could have convinced herself they weren't, and thus still gone along with the fake murder plan despite the victims actually being dead.

Which is almost certainly what happened, honestly.
I'm confused about Rosa's role though in the First Twilight Game. I've discussed this on EP2's board, and I figured that the chapel probably wasn't even locked. I have two theories with some evidence, but both theories and evidence conflicts with each other.

Theory 1) Rosa was in on the Murder Game (most probable and accepted theory)
  • Beatrice appearing to the adults in the chapel would have been Yasu "convincing" the adults to play along.
  • Rosa's lie about the door being locked would create the closed room.
  • Rosa plans on going along with the murder game, and may not have even realized the game was still going on.
But something about Rosa grabbing the key seems out of place for someone in a murder show. This brings me to:

Theory 2) Rosa seriously had no clue what was going on.
Theory 2 relies on the way Rosa handled herself with the locked room and Maria's key. Battler just barely saw her take the key from the sealed envelope, and other than a groggy Battler, there were no other witnesses. Rosa did not put on a big show, which I would assume she would have done if she was an accomplice in the game. But, if she had no clue what was going on, and she feels it's an emergency, she would take the key without caring about witnesses.

But if she had no clue, why did she lie about the door being locked in the first place? Answer - Theory 1.
But if she was in on it, why didn't she make sure there were more witnesses/Battler was actually awake when she grabbed the key? Answer- Theory 2.
Well, that's all I was able to figure out.
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Old 2012-04-16, 00:02   Link #28449
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
It's still a disgusting desecration of the bodies, though, however it was done.

Honestly, I really do kind of think Ryukishi is a pretty sick person when I read stuff like that. I do love his work but he goes way over the top with stuff like that and it's completely unnecessary. Actually, it kind of detracts from it in all honesty - I think people would be more ready to accept the motive if the murders were done in a more reasonable fashion.

On the other hand, it did make for a pretty awesome moment in EP3 when Battler complained to Beatrice about the exact same thing. It kind of felt like the author was criticising himself, teehee. And there weren't actually any particularly gory murders in any of the episodes after that part, so maybe he really was responding to reader criticism.
He has a certain fascination with it, but I think he moderated himself well enough with it. Yes, there is some pretty gross and nasty stuff in Umineko (and in Higurashi, let's not forget). However, most of the time it's there because it's meant to be unnerving and messed up; the whole point of the ep2 First Twilight is how disgusting and twisted it is, and certainly Battler doesn't just take that in stride. It offends him. It offends us. It's supposed to. Ryukishi isn't trying to entertain us with it so much as scare and upset us, and get us on Battler's side where we go "Whoa, that's not cool Beatrice."
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Old 2012-04-16, 01:32   Link #28450
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
But if she was in on it, why didn't she make sure there were more witnesses/Battler was actually awake when she grabbed the key? Answer- Theory 2.
Well, that's all I was able to figure out.
I think it's shown in Our Confessions, Beatrice is able to (in her own fictional stories, that is) convince or threaten the siblings into doing what she wants. So I think the answer from there is that she gave Maria the key and gave Rosa the instructions to run for the key to pretend that the door was closed. And on top of that Genji is in Beatrice's total employ and has full knowledge of the events of the episode, if not every episode.

Spoiler for Genji's admission to Battler:


So basically, even if Kumasawa and Gouda weren't let in on the plan yet... well... when you think about it, Beatrice has the ability to recruit almost everyone on the island except Battler and maybe George and Jessica.

Actually, I'm probably repeating stuff you guys have figured out by now... I'll have something much more substantial soon. But it's been a matter of sorting through some 75 notes from EP1-2... heh. So.. sorry for the big long interruption that's coming up... 8)

Last edited by Kylon99; 2012-04-16 at 03:42.
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Old 2012-04-16, 14:29   Link #28451
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Well, I won't go too far out of my way to argue against the interpretation that satisfies you, but I find the idea that the motive was purely Meta as ALSO pretty shoddy, morally speaking. Also, knee-jerk response that neither greed or revenge are inherently unsatisfying motives. Though the only thing EP7 Kyrie needed to complete the trope list was a curly mustache to tweedle and one of the girls tied to some darn train tracks.
Well I'm actually just going by what people have been saying on this very board.
Nearly everytime anyone came up/comes up with a theory of a culprit and/or their why dunnit, what didn't pass was exactly that.
"Seen before, seen people having it harder" etc. It remains true. Even Higurashi had imo characters who had way more messed up lives/suffered a lot more then anyone in Umineko did in comparison, and yet in Umineko's case it's apparently valid reason to do things more messed up then what anyone under the Hinamizawa Syndrome + a worst life story did.

And there are many other stories out there. Going by a pure Mystery why dunnit ends up making Umineko way too melodramatic (as well as making the apology of extreme teen angst). And well just look at the current state where so many people are dissatisfied by the "amoralities" of Ryuukishi.

So based on that I can safely say that "mystery why dunnit isn't satisfying". It'd be for a 300-600 pages mystery novel, but not for a bible sized story such as Umineko.


Quote:
Well, it's like ... for us, the ENTIRETY of Umineko is fictional. In whatever Prime is, Eva is a REAL person refusing to comment on a REAL explosion that may or may not kill some people.
Well those are assumptions. To me accepting the explosion and accepting that the story is fiction is exactly the same thing. Can't seperate the two, it's like accepting a fantasy scene as being part of prime.
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Old 2012-04-16, 16:01   Link #28452
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So I think the answer from there is that she gave Maria the key and gave Rosa the instructions to run for the key to pretend that the door was closed.
It still doesn't make sense though, because if it was a show being put on for Battler, wouldn't Rosa had tried to make sure that he was watching. I haven't read it in a while, but I didn't quite get the feeling that it was all an act from that scene. Why didn't she check to make sure there were more witness's and that Battler was actually focused and awake when she was getting the key out?


Quote:
Well those are assumptions. To me accepting the explosion and accepting that the story is fiction is exactly the same thing. Can't seperate the two, it's like accepting a fantasy scene as being part of prime.
I'm not sure about that though. I think EP6 confirmed it, because the TIPS usually gives the information on how people were found. They usually don't lie about the way they were killed.
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Old 2012-04-16, 21:36   Link #28453
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A problem with the greed motive in Episode 7 is that it backfired. All the money on the card is less than one person's share of the gold.
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Old 2012-04-16, 23:33   Link #28454
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It still doesn't make sense though, because if it was a show being put on for Battler, wouldn't Rosa had tried to make sure that he was watching. I haven't read it in a while, but I didn't quite get the feeling that it was all an act from that scene. Why didn't she check to make sure there were more witness's and that Battler was actually focused and awake when she was getting the key out?
Well, the only thing I can think of is that her duty as the key isn't an overriding order. I was thinking that the Key ends up just following Battler around more than actually guiding him every step of the way.

The 'guiding' that the Key does seems to me to just be participating in the tricks, like Natsuhi (whom I say was the one who placed the envelope with the servants) and Rosa, who was told to lie in certain ways (like about Kinzo.) So, it's not direct manipulation of Battler by the Key, but manipulation of the ceremony. Battler is at the centre by default...
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Old 2012-04-17, 07:00   Link #28455
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Originally Posted by Ikuko View Post
Has anyone here watched this? What do you guys think?
The question I'd like to ask him as well as everyone here is how well we can "play on words" given that the version of Umineko we're playing is an English translation.

Regardless I think he's quite smart in the theories he presents. He just takes the translation too literally. Now if I knew Japanese, I'd be able to determine just how right he is...
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Old 2012-04-17, 21:05   Link #28456
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Originally Posted by Ikuko View Post
Has anyone here watched this? What do you guys think?
He does some pretty nice deductions, his own theory is not by any means bad. However, his denial and so-called proof for Shkanon is downright nonsensical.
Most specifically, how he thought Kanon escaped the room before the windows were taped during the logic error. You can SEE through a window, if he was gone Erika would have noticed, if we go with that guy's literal way.
Anyway, like ImperialX said, the man is entirely too literal.


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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
It still doesn't make sense though, because if it was a show being put on for Battler, wouldn't Rosa had tried to make sure that he was watching. I haven't read it in a while, but I didn't quite get the feeling that it was all an act from that scene. Why didn't she check to make sure there were more witness's and that Battler was actually focused and awake when she was getting the key out?
The show is put on for all of the non-accomplices, not just for Battler. Battler was who the mystery was meant for, so if everyone is just as confused as him then the whole thing will still be a mystery for him, in other words he will get no help.
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Old 2012-04-18, 03:41   Link #28457
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Well I'm actually just going by what people have been saying on this very board.
Nearly everytime anyone came up/comes up with a theory of a culprit and/or their why dunnit, what didn't pass was exactly that.
"Seen before, seen people having it harder" etc. It remains true. Even Higurashi had imo characters who had way more messed up lives/suffered a lot more then anyone in Umineko did in comparison, and yet in Umineko's case it's apparently valid reason to do things more messed up then what anyone under the Hinamizawa Syndrome + a worst life story did.




.

Well, the problem I have with it is not "people having it harder", because different people deals with the same stuff in different ways. Some took it harder than the others. So I am fine with that. The problem is, the logic of the whydunnit is something very hard to follow.

It is not like Higurashi characters are more acceptable because even their life are more messy, they did not do something so messed up as anyone in Umineko. The thing is, their logic is somewhat believable. For example, Keichi in Curse-Killing Arc. His action is a bit over the top, but we could see the logic in his mind. However twisted it is, it is believable that under that circumstances, certain people would behave similarly. And he did not jump down the well straight away, but the story presents us that he gradually lost his sanity. Even if you will not agree with him (you are not supposed to do anyways), you understand his reason, and find it sympathetic at some degree.

Umineko repeated the theme of "love" a lot of time, but the thing is...well, it is too hard to follow the jump in character's inner logic. There're none of them, even Yasu, would make a believable transition to a mass murderer. So even now I tend to think the whole Rockenjima incident is a big tragic accident. It is easier to swallow for me, but it will also raise a lot of question for other readers.




P.S.
Well, by the ways, I just finished 1q84 by Haruki Murakami. The characters did some thing similar to Keichi's action in Curse Killing Arc. But by now I have to say I prefer Ryukishi's execution of Keichi's mental state than Haruki Murakami, a Nobel finalists. It's not related at all to the discussion. Just saying.
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Old 2012-04-18, 05:51   Link #28458
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Just some thoughts from my time away...


1. The reason that the whole "everyone else" red is valid was actually Erika sealing her own fate (in masking tape too). She said "I don't care whether they are alive or dead, just that that is where their body is" or something. Therefore, by her definition Kanon couldn't be included in the other room, because his body was currently at Shannon's location. This is probably why Battler had a bit of an issue, Kanon was not in the room at the time (hence why there were only five people), but Erika was basically creating a logic error herself by her vague definition.

P.s. Battler would have been in infinite amounts of trouble had she just used their names....

2. The crimes still being committed even if Lion exists reek of non-Yasu culprit theory, however since Shannon and Kanon couldn't exist at the same time but Shannon and Lion could, episode 7 is basically crock in that regards anyway.

3. How can Ep 2 contain red truths? If it were truly written by Yasu and she (according to the currently translated manga sections) was dead, there would be no way the truth could be read. Someone knew the answers to all later forgeries, but no-one should have known the answers to the second one for sure.....

4. People had some complaints about motives/killings not following epitaphs in game 5, but Lamba was throwing chess pieces remember, she could do what she wanted without motive, reason or love.
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Old 2012-04-18, 06:04   Link #28459
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Furthermore, in regards to Shannon and Kannon appearing in front the objective Erika in game 5, while I can't remember if she explicitly stated that they were both there, there is a possible explanation for this even if it did occur. That is simply that Lamba was not aware this could not occur. There was no logic error, as she made a game where they both could exist, but the reason Battler was able to usurp her position as GM is because he FULLY understood the game, and realised that Lamba was not fully aware of all facets of Beato's game. It is clear she knew about it by episode 8 (when she basically hinted it to us in Bern's game), however, by then she had become the impartial judge.

Thoughts?
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Old 2012-04-18, 06:07   Link #28460
GreyZone
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3. How can Ep 2 contain red truths? If it were truly written by Yasu and she (according to the currently translated manga sections) was dead, there would be no way the truth could be read. Someone knew the answers to all later forgeries, but no-one should have known the answers to the second one for sure.....
now that is an interesting part. Which chapter/Page is it? (Please no direct link, as the manga was licensed)
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