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Old 2012-04-18, 16:46   Link #28481
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Problem is that letting somebody who shares your body temporarily deactivate you (but not to the point that you couldn't potentially reawaken later) just doesn't obey the same linguistic constructs as would apply to independent biological entities engaging in murder or suicide or whatever you want to call it.
I'm starting to think that Shannon, Kanon and Beato are nothing more than Yasu's fantasies for which she used her body as vessel so that they could interact with others and be believed as real.

In short they're similar to Sakutarou.
For Maria he's real, alive and can die.
Featherine explains the way Sakutarou can die are:
- destroying his vessel
- Maria dying
- Maria stopping to play with him/denying his existence (well, that's what Ange does with the 7 sisters)

Note that Sakutarou was resurrected when Maria acceted another body as his vessel and Ange sort of resurrected the 7 sisters again when she decided to re-summon them.

The illusion of Shannon and Kanon being real is made perfect by the fact they didn't use a puppet body as vessel but a real human body so the illusion of them being real is way more marked than with Sakutarou, who's obviously moved and voiced by Maria (or the 7 sisters whose vessel is... well unmoving and not human shaped).

Note that in Ep 7 we can clearly guess that Shannon is Yasu's imaginary friend and when Yasu decided to become Beato it can be viewed as if she handed her body as vessel for Shannon who automatically becomes the... let's call it the official personality of Yasu.
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Old 2012-04-18, 16:52   Link #28482
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And that's kind of the problem I see with Shkanontrice as it's apparently supposed to be viewed according to Ryukishi. Really, Beatrice is not "burning out" Shannon and Kanon's bulbs. She's just switching them off. They didn't go anywhere, they're just not active. This requires a whole new vocabulary to explain, as it isn't the normal context in which words like "dead" and "murdered" would be used. If you're going to co-opt those terms, you have to explain them. Ryukishi didn't do this because explaining new terms would draw attention to the fact that Shannon and Kanon are not being spoken of in the same context as biological entities. That's rather the point: It's cheating because to be honest would not allow the reader to be deceived properly.
Well, but that 'vocabulary' required to explain this concept is somehow presented. I think the concept of 'alive' and 'dead' was stressed in EPs 2 and 6 in various ways, like jjblue says.
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Old 2012-04-18, 18:49   Link #28483
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Is it possible that the narrative, mystery/fantasy, is entirely independent of the "logic" of the gameboard? Like there's no "mystery" or "fantasy" story, there's just one story (the narrative) which gradually becomes more and more fantasy while the who/how dunnit remains logic puzzles that are far closer to mystery.

To me it sounds like it could solve most problems concerning the why dunnits and the Shkanontrice reds.


Also, I wanted to say that Shannon and Kanon cannot "come back to life and die at will".
Even tho it's fantasy scenes, one has to happen, and has to play a role in the overall story that's going on.
We've never been presented with someone just popping back alive with no narration process leading there.


Edit: It'd be also interesting to compare something like perfect blue to Umineko. The main character has a messed up life leading them to have hallucinations but also is playing a role in a story who's lines and story happens to be very similar to her own real life. I'm bringing that up because there's a few times the movies showed a scene as if it was true to learn at the end that it's a cut for the movie they are making. Anyway, it feels like an influence on Umineko to me, but also might help to see Umineko in a different light. The story within a story aspect is much more clear.

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Old 2012-04-18, 21:58   Link #28484
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Then what possible reason does Shannon have for allowing Kanon to come back, and where does
Kanon wasn't dead because there's no red truth regarding his death in Ep6. He's not even part of the first twilight to begin with.
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Ryukishi is linguistically cheating. Something that can come back at any time isn't "dead" and it doesn't cease existing just because it's "inactive." And it certainly cannot be "murdered."Because people do not do incredibly specific and completely meaningless things for no apparent reason just to satisfy some character they don't even know's logic puzzles.
I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happened
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Old 2012-04-19, 00:04   Link #28485
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Kanon wasn't dead because there's no red truth regarding his death in Ep6. He's not even part of the first twilight to begin with.
I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happened
What precisely is the difference, philosophically, between the body of Kanon acting like Kanon and treating Jessica as if it were Kanon but actually "being Beatrice," and it simply being Kanon?

There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.
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Old 2012-04-19, 02:56   Link #28486
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.
False dichotomy? Are there no other possibilities?

Also, in the case there are three personalities, it does not follow that any or all of them can't be 'dead' at all. Personalities can be dead, just perhaps not in the way you expected them to be.

Once again, because this doesn't conform to a detective novel 'dead' does not mean it can't be a mystery in the genre sense. Nor does it immediately follow that this allows the author to do anything he wishes.

As Ryukishi said in his own interviews, it is possible for one of the personalities to act even though they're dressed up and have an outward appearance of the other personalities. (But yes, Ryukishi did play a dirty, dirty trick on us. From his own mouth, he admitted this in one of his interviews, though he was being coy about what the trick was at the time.)

I think the ultimate proof of this is at when Beatrice finishes giving the guns to the siblings in EP7, she is shown to sit down and not move at all. Her body is not dead, but at that point all three personalities are effectively dead. Once that happens, she won't make any moves, physical or verbal from then on.

I think perhaps if someone is an artist, we would need a picture of the body Yasu, dressed as Shannon with wig and all, holding a smoking pistol but with an evil smile like Beatrice. This would perhaps sum up what has been going on the best.

Anyways... let me finish writing up the quotes I've gathered... I think if you read through those again, the picture would become much clearer, if it hasn't already become clear from my Final Culprit Theory.
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Old 2012-04-19, 05:12   Link #28487
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I don't consider "prime" and "Ange's world" to be the same thing at all, but yeah I think in Ange's world that's right, it was an accident. I made a long post at one point as of why it was the only conclusion for Ange's world that was supported by anything at all. To resume the most major points : It's what the official investigation said, and the only ones who think/claim it's murder are the Witchhunters which I compared to the conspiracy theorists of our own world.
Except why would Eva care about protecting that in your opinion?

Also to whoever said real things can't die and come back, they sort of can. It is a semantics game, but with the classic cardiac definition of death (though it is disputed), people have been medically dead for periods of time. Sorry for the nitpick.

No opinions on my Erika trapping herself with her "where the body is" idea?


Also, this has probably been addressed a thousand times, but can someone explain to me the logic of the "I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima" and "still only 17 of us" reds? Is it the use of the word 'human'
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Old 2012-04-19, 05:13   Link #28488
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.
There's is some kind of confirmation though. Jessica immediately recognized the voice as Kanon. There's no need for any kind of rules.

Anyway, Isn't it enough that he declare himself as dead person and only living a spirit? Just like how a real dead person have a spirit after death based on beliefs, a dead personality can also have a remnant left behind after it died. Similar to Toyah's case with Battler and Kotobuki/Hisashi Yukari with Ange. The red truth doesn't really obliterate the existence of the personality itself , It just didn't allow them to show that personality again to other people . But Jessica's case was different, at that time, she was blind and in state of panic . This allows whoeverplayingasKanonShannonBeatrice to deceive Jessica into believing that Kanon was a spirit and still dead.
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If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.
It is impossible for the actor to permanently kill those personalities inside his/her head but making other people believe that those personalities died can make a similar effect. For example, In Ep3, Battler and others saw Kanon's corpse inside the chapel. Dr. Nanjo did a fake autopsy and concluded that Kanon was dead. There's no way that they would know the autopsy was fake so they willingly believed what Dr. Nanjo said because he's a physician. Adding the fact that the actor will never shows up as Kanon again, enforced the truth that Kanon was really dead and be seen again walking again, at least base on everyone's subjectivity. It becomes a truth that everyone believes in making the Red truth Kanon was dead possible.

I hope you understand what i wrote here since i don't get it myself. English isn't my first language so it's hard to reply.
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Old 2012-04-19, 08:06   Link #28489
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I disagree, Shannon and Kanon didn't comeback at all but rather we are lead to believe that they are revived. In Ep3, Shannon was revive by Beatrice to meet George . But did all of that really happened? Battler wasn't around to witness what that and we even see those Golden Butterfly flying around. If you just ignore those fantasy scene or if you look at what Battler saw at that time, you will notice that George was killed by someone in that room, and there's no trace of Shannon being alive at all.
and about Kanon appearing and speaking with Jessica, there's no proof that it was Kanon. What if Beatrice just used Kanon's voice at that time? since there's also a Golden Butterfly in that scene i can doubt that scene really happened
When I first went through Ep 3 with the belief it was solvable but that I should trust the reds I also thought that the resurrection of Shannon and Kanon might be fake... but when I slammed against the obvious fact that someone that was supposed to be dead was walking around and killing Nanjo.

So the problem is that Shannon&Kanon's body has to be alive and if vessel is alive Kanon and Shannon can be resurrected at will and this makes their 'dead status' completely different from... let's say Nanjo.

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What precisely is the difference, philosophically, between the body of Kanon acting like Kanon and treating Jessica as if it were Kanon but actually "being Beatrice," and it simply being Kanon?

There is no observable or discernible difference. There is no rule that lets us know whether it "really is" Kanon. Do you not see how this permits Ryukishi to do or say anything he wants in this situation, if we accept what you're saying as true? He can literally have Kanon be present and acting like Kanon and then wave his hand and declare that Kanon was not there.

If it's a single intellect posing as three roles, it isn't possible to declare any one of them dead while the body lives. If it's three distinct personalities which exist only as minds, it's impossible for them to be dead at all. If it's whichever one the author prefers at a given moment, it's poorly-written garbage.
That's why I'm starting to think that Kanon and Shannon are nothing more than Yasu's versions of Sakutaro, only they use Yasu's body as vessel and this makes other mistake them for real.

Though yes, this gives Ryukishi a lot of freedom as the rules for Kanon and Shannon's presence are pretty unclear.

For example it's likely that Maria acknowledge Sakutaro's presence each time she's with Sakutaro's vessel and says he's not there when she's without him and the only way to have Sakutaro's vessel around but not Sakutaro is to break Sakutaro's vessel so for Maria Sakutaro will be dead.

However if we take Ange and the seven sisters... when can be say that they're not with Ange or that they are with her? We've only Ange's word on that department.

And now back to Shannon and Kanon. They have a vessel and, if the vessel is witnessed and acts in a certain way it could be possible to say that 1 of them is present (it's impossible to say if the other is present as well though because the narrative might describe him/her as 'in the room but hidden from the view of the observer'). However technically it's possible to 'kill' Shannon and Kanon and have their vessel still move around and even fake their presence so just the vessel acting like one of them wouldn't assure us that they're there.
This trick makes Shannon and Kanon as elusive as the 7 sisters while at the same time using a vessel that's way better than Sakutaro and that allow them to be acknowledged as real.
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Old 2012-04-19, 08:23   Link #28490
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Except why would Eva care about protecting that in your opinion?
Well you saw what happened on that day.
Everyone backstabbing each other for money and showing their ugliest side... and then they all died in an explosion. So... Eva has no more idea about the specifics of the explosion then anyone else, and anything she'd say about others would only make them look bad. No points in insulting the dead and Eva would probably be insulting her own self in the process.

It's thanks to her sacrifice that Battler was able to create arc 8 the way it was.

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Also, this has probably been addressed a thousand times, but can someone explain to me the logic of the "I am the 18th human on Rokkenjima" and "still only 17 of us" reds? Is it the use of the word 'human'
The statement about being the 18th human is sorta a title. It's not really any different from saying something like "I am the golden witch, Beatrice" in red (followed by something like "Im sorry there are no witches on this island").
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Old 2012-04-19, 08:25   Link #28491
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False dichotomy? Are there no other possibilities?
Perhaps. Do you have one?
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Also, in the case there are three personalities, it does not follow that any or all of them can't be 'dead' at all. Personalities can be dead, just perhaps not in the way you expected them to be.

Once again, because this doesn't conform to a detective novel 'dead' does not mean it can't be a mystery in the genre sense. Nor does it immediately follow that this allows the author to do anything he wishes.
"Death" in its ordinary meaning carries a particular notion of finality. Unless you are H.P. Lovecraft, most people do not believe that dead things can stop being dead at some point. It's fine to use "dead" to refer to an unorthodox existence, so long as it refers to the ordinary notion of permanent departure and nonexistence in some recognizable way. If it doesn't refer to that idea, the onus falls to the person rendering the description to properly define "death" in this context.

And what everyone seems to be forgetting is that we're never given context for any declaration of death, making it entirely possible to believe that no one ever physically died even when the red claims they did. After all, the only explanation of death we've actually seen alluded to by the author is a death of personality which is inherently temporary. Why shouldn't we just believe every use of "dead" in red refers to temporary personality death? To muddle the story in this fashion is a serious error.
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As Ryukishi said in his own interviews, it is possible for one of the personalities to act even though they're dressed up and have an outward appearance of the other personalities. (But yes, Ryukishi did play a dirty, dirty trick on us. From his own mouth, he admitted this in one of his interviews, though he was being coy about what the trick was at the time.)
Yes, but that's philosophically worthless. If someone looks like Shannon but clearly by action isn't Shannon, that's one thing. However, if a character looks and acts like Shannon or Kanon, but can't reliably be said to actually be Shannon or Kanon (because they may just be Beatrice posing as them), then we've entered the territory of allowing the author to do whatever he wants whenever he wants by merely refusing to acknowledge or display any sort of internal logic which will permit us to know the difference.

It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."
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Old 2012-04-19, 09:33   Link #28492
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It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."
While I understand your point, I don't really get what you are trying to argue. We sort of know from what Ryu says it is possible for other personalities to pretend to be the other ones, but so what?

Also in regards to reviving Kanon in ep 3, it is possible that Beatrice pretended to be him to give Jessica some last kindness, even though he was actually dead. That was the point of the fantasy scene after all.
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Old 2012-04-19, 10:40   Link #28493
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While I understand your point, I don't really get what you are trying to argue. We sort of know from what Ryu says it is possible for other personalities to pretend to be the other ones, but so what?

Also in regards to reviving Kanon in ep 3, it is possible that Beatrice pretended to be him to give Jessica some last kindness, even though he was actually dead. That was the point of the fantasy scene after all.
My point is there is no appreciable difference between one and the other, so no matter what Ryukishi writes it as, he can claim it's something else.

Someone can go "So how did Kanon show up and talk to Jessica if he was dead?" and he can be like:
  • He came back to life, because personalities can do that; or
  • Oh it was just Beatrice, who is in the same body as him, using his voice and behaving exactly like him. But it wasn't him, I swear.
It's just stupid. It can be whatever he wants it to be to make his red work, and if he has to resort to undetectable existential cheating just to make red function, he's not very good at what he does.

Like I said, it's one thing to see Kanon in the hallway only to have him turn around with an uncharacteristic grin and shoot the person who saw him. That's a clear indication that, appearances be damned, it's not Kanon. When "Kanon" appears before Jessica, treats her kindly, and acts in every possible way as if he is Kanon and Jessica is completely incapable of distinguishing that he is not Kanon, it would be absolute B.S. to say "but in actuality it wasn't Kanon." The hell it wasn't.

And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define.
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Old 2012-04-19, 11:49   Link #28494
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And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define.
Rules that he told us in arc 1 that it was our job to figure out, much like learning how to play chess by watching a game?

He never clearly put foward any set of rules and specifically told us it was our job to figure them out, so how can you claim he broke them or changed them? Don't you have any doubt at all that it might be you who got it wrong? This reminds me of physics, when a formula stops working past a certain range it's not because physics are arbitrary beyond such a point, but that the formula you had, tho workable in a certain range, needs to be replaced by a better and more complete one.
From my opinion you never got past the formula of "typical mystery".

The one thing I'm personally angry at Ryuukishi at is actually that I feel the readers who enjoyed it the most aren't those who tried to solve it, and rather got into the fandom of the whole, with battle games, fanart, and cosplay, etc.


It'd be easier to accept a critic of an orange, if it was criticizing it as an orange, then as an apple.
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Old 2012-04-19, 12:57   Link #28495
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Rules that he told us in arc 1 that it was our job to figure out, much like learning how to play chess by watching a game?
Yea, except he didn't carry through on his side of the obligation. You can't learn how to play a game via observation of the players are cheating.
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Old 2012-04-19, 17:05   Link #28496
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The red truth is just a crutch designed to allow certain reasoning hence why it was introduced into the game. I do think it taking at face value is a mistake. It is what Battler did in the third game. In fact we seen Beatrice change the red truth by stating there are 17 people instead of 18. The red can even be defeated by the golden truth.

Also regarding the Shannon/Kanon personality trick is unfair. Keep in mind that Beatrice was capable of reveling and killing both Shannon/Kanon at will during the games, I think that was suppsoe to be the hint. As well that the two had a certain meta awareness as Beatrice. You cannot argue that Ryukishi did not display any indication that those pieces were different then the rest.

If you compare this to chess. Shannon/Kanon are the witches' pieces that have basically the ability to turn off and on. We seen that certain pieces can be given ability that can be considered cheating. Erika as Bernkastel's piece has full meta awareness and the detective authority. For the human side that is pretty much cheating if you consider how little Battler had.


You know when I first watched the anime first, I had the impression that the culprit(s) was impersonating a few of the characters since Rosa brought up the point of "are you really Rudolf's son?". My first theory was that Genji=Kinzo and Kanon=Shannon. Granted it seems silly now but that is how I thought the solution to the first game and second game could be explained. That they "killed" one of the characters to allow one free rein to commit more murders.

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Like I said, it's one thing to see Kanon in the hallway only to have him turn around with an uncharacteristic grin and shoot the person who saw him. That's a clear indication that, appearances be damned, it's not Kanon. When "Kanon" appears before Jessica, treats her kindly, and acts in every possible way as if he is Kanon and Jessica is completely incapable of distinguishing that he is not Kanon, it would be absolute B.S. to say "but in actuality it wasn't Kanon." The hell it wasn't.[/b].
Although that Jessica was blind was suppose to be a pretty large indication that was not Kanon as well that it was a fantasy scene. I would agree if that it was BS if we seen Kanon.

Also being Jessica scared, lonely, and grieving from her parents' death could not be that hard to fool. If you think about it. If you think that culprit was talking to Jessica, there is only short list of people that are able to impersonate Kanon.

The culprit having a significant voice range was a given since Beatrice's voice did not ring any bells when people heard her in game 2 and in game 4.

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And the point is, because he can get away with this kind of crap, he can essentially never make a mistake in his stories or contradict himself because he just has to change the rules [b]that he never defined in the first place, and had an obligation to define
Well I do wonder if that was the point of the logic error. If you think that Battler wrote himself into a corner with red and using Shannon/Kannon trick to get himself out of it despite commenting that it does not seem very mystery seems to be what some people have a problem with Umineko.

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Yea, except he didn't carry through on his side of the obligation. You can't learn how to play a game via observation of the players are cheating.
That does being up a thought.

Lets say you play chess with one person. You shows him most moves but neglects to mention other moves that pieces can do leading to win every match. Is that really cheating or just within certain information to keep an advantage? You did not really break any rules.

I do think that is basically what Ryukishi/Beatrice's game was. A chess-like game completely made by her allowing her to create/reveal the rules or even bend them on a technicality.
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Old 2012-04-19, 19:29   Link #28497
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Perhaps. Do you have one?
Yeah, three personalities existing in one body, but personalities can commit suicide or be told by another personality to cease to exist. (Abandoned, dead, future cut off, perhaps would be more accurate.)

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Death" in its ordinary meaning carries a particular notion of finality. Unless you are H.P. Lovecraft, most people do not believe that dead things can stop being dead at some point. It's fine to use "dead" to refer to an unorthodox existence, so long as it refers to the ordinary notion of permanent departure and nonexistence in some recognizable way. If it doesn't refer to that idea, the onus falls to the person rendering the description to properly define "death" in this context.
The problem is you're thinking of normal people and how normal people define death. You need to think from Beatrice's point of view instead and how she defines death, especially death for 'furniture.'

Ahh... nvm.. I'm going to cut short this reply and get back to working on the mega post I have lined up. You should really consider what the quotes I will have in EP1 and 2 are saying first, and see if you can come up with a different perspective. (Something apparently EP4 had been saying alllll over the text, but I'll get to those EPs in another post.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's more than a mere "dirty trick," it's effectively outright cheating. "This looks, speaks, and acts like Shannon, but at any given moment it might not actually be Shannon and I am under no obligation to provide any comprehensible mechanism by which a reader could know the difference. Also, I will make the life-or-death status of Shannon something I can and will codify at particular moments in the story, even though it doesn't mean anything because of the way I've set up this situation."
By the way, is it entirely possible to solve the detective mysteries (the closed room murders and so on) in the story without Shkannon?

What if the Shkannon hints are only for the greater mystery of the culprit and not for the detective mystery hijinks? I'm re-reading EP4 and it struck me at one point with Ange(Gretel), Battler and Beatrice's discussion at how useless the red, blue and gold texts are for solving anything other than the greater mystery of Shannon's situation.

Because if you think about it, using red text to solve a detective mystery would technically be a violation of typical detective fiction, not to mention Knox rules. I think more than a few people have posted that on here. I'm starting to think it's not just a violation, but useless.

To the detective mysteries, perhaps all text ends up being 'black.'

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
The red truth is just a crutch designed to allow certain reasoning hence why it was introduced into the game. I do think it taking at face value is a mistake. It is what Battler did in the third game. In fact we seen Beatrice change the red truth by stating there are 17 people instead of 18. The red can even be defeated by the golden truth.
I didn't read to the end before I posted. 8)

Anyways, I'll try to post that mega post tonight since I'm nearly done. I hope there's no message length limit on here. 8)
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Old 2012-04-19, 20:50   Link #28498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99
You need to think from Beatrice's point of view instead and how she defines death
Who is Beato?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice
I am Beatrice, the Endless witch!
Virgilia talks about Endless magic, and how it affects Beato's mind. How Beato sees it as "nothing more than two sides of a coin that she can just flip over"
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Old 2012-04-19, 23:50   Link #28499
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Umineko Comprehensive EP1-2

I've gone through EP1 and 2 looking for specific clues now that we know The Answer as I outlined in a few posts awhile back. I was looking for places where Yasu, who wrote EP1-2, wrote her thoughts on topics like, "Humans are XXXX" or "When we were children we were ABC, but as we grew into Adults we were XYZ" as opposed to narrative, action or mystery. Of course there's even more hints about the specifics of the murders and so on, but I put those elsewhere as we already kind of know the answers for those. (I suppose I'll post those elsewhere one day.)

First, you should actually read the answer I posted or else nothing will make sense.
Spoiler for Umineko Final Culprit Theory:


The Answer

We've known since the Author Theory that Yasu wrote her thoughts and situation she wanted someone (especially Battler) to figure out right into the text, so this is really just picking through and identifying what's there. I was able to slot everything into two main themes for EP1 and 2, Adults vs. Children and some narrative or hints about Beatrice and Shannon's situation. I want to point out that I'm not really making a 'theory' here; rather, I am simply organizing the two largest themes presented in EP1 and EP2 and letting them speak for themselves. When I looked at the notes, it looked like Shannon and Beatrice's entire story and the solution lay bare, right there, on the page for us.
Spoiler for The quick summary...:
From what I've seen of the text, Umineko is basically solvable with just EP1 and 2 with respect to who the culprit is based on these gathered quotes, so long as you don't completely discard the white text or think the white text is some kind of lie. Basically, read what Beatrice/Shannon have told us in the text not as some kind of delusion or fantasy but read it straight, as in this is how she thinks, despite how unrealistic it may seem.
I've tried my best to summarize each quote without injecting opinion or any theories and stick to confirmed answers. I'll wrap this in several layers of spoilers as there is a huge amount of text. The quotes are taken from the text of EP1 and 2, so it's not like you need to re-read it if you remember the scene in question. They will serve as a refresher and reminder for those of us who haven't gone through EP1-2 again. (I was surprised at how much I've forgotten, or just plain ignored! 8) )

Spoiler for Theme 1: Adult vs. Child:

Spoiler for Theme 2: Beatrice and Shannon:

Last edited by Kylon99; 2012-04-19 at 23:54. Reason: Added link to parts 1 and 2.
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Old 2012-04-19, 23:52   Link #28500
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This is the continuation of the quotes regarding Beatrice and Shannon.
The original post can be found here.

Spoiler for Theme 2: Beatrice and Shannon:
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