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Old 2009-11-03, 18:29   Link #2841
Raneh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
"Master key" was never defined, to my memory.

There might well be a key that opens all or most of the doors but for whatever reason isn't classified as a "master key".

The existence of such a key would solve 90% of the closed room mysteries.
I don't think there are any other keys that could open all doors because we have statements like
Quote:
The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant
it is impossible to unlock the door without a key to the servants' room or the master key
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
And of course
The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person
Those red texts were given quite early in games ep 2 and 3. So it should be the same for all games (unless a sixth key was destroyed at the very beginning which is very unlikely + no real reason for anyone to do so).
And because those doors can not be opened by their own keys or master keys I doubt any special keys that can open any door exists.

Edit// Aww either I'm slow at typing or people here are just really fast at replying
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Old 2009-11-03, 19:35   Link #2842
Ithekro
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Just something to ponder. There is a lot of red of those keys. It just strikes me as strange that Kinzo wouldn't have a master key of his own. Not that he needs one, just that he seems the type that would want to have control in his own home, and thus be able to go anywhere he needs or wants without having to call a servant.

Of course there is the question about just how much about Kinzo do we really know? Some of the stuff we get could easily be a lie...since he's dead. Most of what we get is via people who either know he's dead, or people that should know he's dead. (anyone that goes to his room, enters it, then leaves claiming to have talked to him during October 5th, 1986, is certainly lying...or delusional).
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Old 2009-11-03, 19:39   Link #2843
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Just something to ponder. There is a lot of red of those keys. It just strikes me as strange that Kinzo wouldn't have a master key of his own. Not that he needs one, just that he seems the type that would want to have control in his own home, and thus be able to go anywhere he needs or wants without having to call a servant.
Exactly. Perhaps his key simply doesn't work on Jessica's room or the parlor for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Of course there is the question about just how much about Kinzo do we really know? Some of the stuff we get could easily be a lie...since he's dead. Most of what we get is via people who either know he's dead, or people that should know he's dead. (anyone that goes to his room, enters it, then leaves claiming to have talked to him during October 5th, 1986, is certainly lying...or dillusional).
I think the scene with Nanjo at the beginning, at least takes place in the past... so I think we can consider that the "real Kinzo".
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Old 2009-11-03, 19:57   Link #2844
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Of course there is the question about just how much about Kinzo do we really know? Some of the stuff we get could easily be a lie...since he's dead. Most of what we get is via people who either know he's dead, or people that should know he's dead. (anyone that goes to his room, enters it, then leaves claiming to have talked to him during October 5th, 1986, is certainly lying...or delusional).
Like his appearance, you mean?
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Old 2009-11-03, 20:00   Link #2845
Renall
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I'm inclined to believe very little of what we have seen of Kinzo is the "real" Kinzo. Everyone is remembering him through the lens of their own experiences. There are probably a few things about him which are likely true. He was almost certainly a hard, uncompromising man. Probably ruthless and certainly very savvy. His knack for business is obvious in his success. His tendency to take risks probably follows from that. His tenderness or obsession toward Beatrice is suspect, but I suspect he did have some sort of close, passionate relationship to someone named Beatrice, and possibly to another person we know of as the Beatrice of 1967. However, I'm not certain it was an obsessive, moody, wailing romantic longing. There's no telling what it was.
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Old 2009-11-03, 20:04   Link #2846
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm inclined to believe very little of what we have seen of Kinzo is the "real" Kinzo. Everyone is remembering him through the lens of their own experiences. There are probably a few things about him which are likely true. He was almost certainly a hard, uncompromising man. Probably ruthless and certainly very savvy. His knack for business is obvious in his success. His tendency to take risks probably follows from that. His tenderness or obsession toward Beatrice is suspect, but I suspect he did have some sort of close, passionate relationship to someone named Beatrice, and possibly to another person we know of as the Beatrice of 1967. However, I'm not certain it was an obsessive, moody, wailing romantic longing. There's no telling what it was.
Really? Judging by Meta-Battler's Kinzo-like breakdown when he saw Meta-Beato's corpse disappear, I'd say Kinzo really was obsessed with Beatrice like that.
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Old 2009-11-03, 20:06   Link #2847
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Really? Judging by Meta-Battler's Kinzo-like breakdown when he saw Meta-Beato's corpse disappear, I'd say Kinzo really was obsessed with Beatrice like that.
Alternatively, Beato can see the future and, through showing him those scenes, was telling Battler what he might become.
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Old 2009-11-03, 20:09   Link #2848
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm inclined to believe very little of what we have seen of Kinzo is the "real" Kinzo. Everyone is remembering him through the lens of their own experiences. There are probably a few things about him which are likely true. He was almost certainly a hard, uncompromising man. Probably ruthless and certainly very savvy. His knack for business is obvious in his success. His tendency to take risks probably follows from that. His tenderness or obsession toward Beatrice is suspect, but I suspect he did have some sort of close, passionate relationship to someone named Beatrice, and possibly to another person we know of as the Beatrice of 1967. However, I'm not certain it was an obsessive, moody, wailing romantic longing. There's no telling what it was.
I agree. I also think that Kinzo did not think of his children and grandchildren as being completely worthless either. After all, Kinzo wouldn't have written the epitaph if he didn't have faith that someone in the family would solve it, and that this person would be the most qualified to become the head. And one can't have faith and trust in someone without love.

Otherwise what reason is there for the epitaph to exist in the first place? Unless Kinzo just enjoys dicking around with people.
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Old 2009-11-03, 20:18   Link #2849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Just something to ponder. There is a lot of red of those keys. It just strikes me as strange that Kinzo wouldn't have a master key of his own. Not that he needs one, just that he seems the type that would want to have control in his own home, and thus be able to go anywhere he needs or wants without having to call a servant.

Of course there is the question about just how much about Kinzo do we really know? Some of the stuff we get could easily be a lie...since he's dead. Most of what we get is via people who either know he's dead, or people that should know he's dead. (anyone that goes to his room, enters it, then leaves claiming to have talked to him during October 5th, 1986, is certainly lying...or delusional).
I'm actually more surprised that Natsuhi and Krauss do not possess one. Kinzo pretty much doesn't care about anything that is outside his private rooms. Also he can call Genji and make him open any door he wants. Kinzo has absolute trust on Genji and Genji is absolutely faithful to him. Different is the situation of Natsuhi and Krauss who actually don't trust the one winged eagle servants because they know they are more faithful to Kinzo. Even after his death they still are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I think the scene with Nanjo at the beginning, at least takes place in the past... so I think we can consider that the "real Kinzo".
The only problem with that scene is that it doesn't match with what we have seen in Ep5.

at the start of Episode1, Nanjo says to Kinzo that he only has 3 months to live. In Episode5, after Kinzo died, everyone says that Kinzo's death was sudden and unexpected.

There is a blatant contradiction. There are different possibilities:

1) The scene in Episode1 is fake
2) The scene in Episode5 is fake
3) Both are true, but Nanjo is lying. He kept Kinzo's situation secret and then he told everyone that Kinzo's death was unexpected.

My favorite is the third option, however I don't know why Kinzo didn't want his family to know he was dying, and why Nanjo needs to keep the secret.
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Old 2009-11-03, 23:15   Link #2850
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It would be in character for Kinzo to keep that a secret, at least if what we've been shown of him is somewhat accurate. He doesn't like making anything easy on his kids, and he doesn't want them picking at him like vultures when he's not yet dead. Finding out he's out of time and telling Nanjo not to inform anyone else might not be out of character for him. Or maybe he thought he'd take his chances, risk that Nanjo was wrong, and try to stay alive by sheer force of will.
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Old 2009-11-03, 23:29   Link #2851
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That all said...there should be enough information to solve the mystery already. I'm wondering if those reading the translated versions can actually solve it, or if the who, how, and why, comes from subtile word play or things that one might not get if not Japanese?

Though in some regards...this is very much like a Classical Mystery novel...so if things aren't based on some clever word play or something that can be translated incorrectly...the answer should be there.
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Old 2009-11-04, 00:04   Link #2852
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I've been trying to look back on Higurashi to think of when the earliest possible time for solving everything was. There might have been enough information to come up with a theory that correctly guesses "who" and "how" in the very first arc but "why" couldn't be fully explained until much later on.

I think it's the same with Umineko. Right now many people probably have theories that correctly answer all the "who" and "how".
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Old 2009-11-04, 00:21   Link #2853
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I've been trying to look back on Higurashi to think of when the earliest possible time for solving everything was. There might have been enough information to come up with a theory that correctly guesses "who" and "how" in the very first arc but "why" couldn't be fully explained until much later on.

I think it's the same with Umineko. Right now many people probably have theories that correctly answer all the "who" and "how".
I do believe that Umineko has also included hints of motive. The sin of Battler was probably one of the hints. Umineko differs from Higurashi that all people involved have deep bonds or blood relationships, common motives like money or power would not be used in Umineko. In fact, I think motives in Umineko played a key role in appreciating this work, therefore readers are supposed to be able to figure out whydunit in Umineko.
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Old 2009-11-04, 00:55   Link #2854
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
My favorite is the third option, however I don't know why Kinzo didn't want his family to know he was dying, and why Nanjo needs to keep the secret.
Well, my idea is that Kinzo didn't die of old age. Nanjo killed him.

That doesn't explain the Ep5 scene, but it's interesting to think about.

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In fact, I think motives in Umineko played a key role in appreciating this work, therefore readers are supposed to be able to figure out whydunit in Umineko.
Then why hasn't anyone?
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Old 2009-11-04, 01:52   Link #2855
Ithekro
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That is a puzzlement. Supposedly there is enough information in the first four games, and the fifth game is to confirm, "yes there is enough information"...so why hasn't anyone said anything that sounds like a logical theory?

Or is it really so convoluted that the answer doesn't seem logical at all...unless you wrote it yourself.
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Old 2009-11-04, 01:55   Link #2856
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What do you mean? There've been plenty of theories that could be considered logical, although at this point you'll have to fish back through these large threads for a lot of them.
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Old 2009-11-04, 02:03   Link #2857
Kaisos Erranon
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Or is it really so convoluted that the answer doesn't seem logical at all...unless you wrote it yourself.
It had better not end up like Cross+Channel where the only person who knows anything is Romeo Tanaka, and he's keeping it to himself.

This is the worst kind of mystery... I'm sure it will seem obvious in retrospect, but for now, who the fuck really knows anything?

All this goes to show what a good writer Ryukishi really is, if no one can figure out his mystery...

Quote:
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What do you mean? There've been plenty of theories that could be considered logical, although at this point you'll have to fish back through these large threads for a lot of them.
Relevant part bolded. >_>
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Old 2009-11-04, 02:09   Link #2858
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What do you mean? There've been plenty of theories that could be considered logical, although at this point you'll have to fish back through these large threads for a lot of them.
In the Ryukishi interview he said the truth Battler realized was that he fully understood the "who, how, and why". This implies that all the readers should understand this by now as well. Mabye some people understand everything but I sure don't.
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Old 2009-11-04, 02:13   Link #2859
k//eternal
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Relevant part bolded. >_>
What's the problem? If you don't like my wording, I could say they actually are logical instead, but since you apparently don't think that anyone has written a reasonable explanation (which begs to invoke a Devil's Proof), it's probably better as is.

Honestly, there's less of a problem as far as coming up with decent explanations is concerned and more of one in reducing them to a single answer. It's like being given a multiple choice exam, but several of the answers look valid despite only one being correct.
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Old 2009-11-04, 02:48   Link #2860
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I've seen several whos and hows...but the why is usually lacking. Supposedly this is the most important point...why would someone or someones do this?
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