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Old 2012-04-30, 10:16   Link #28641
Drifloon
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The game is really inconsistent on how it distinguishes Meta-Battler from Piece-Battler. Sometimes they're completely separate, sometimes it seems to completely forget that they're not the same person. It's pretty weird.
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Old 2012-04-30, 14:01   Link #28642
AuraTwilight
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Does it really matter? That's something worth debating, in my opinion.
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Old 2012-04-30, 15:24   Link #28643
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I think it matters. It informs us about the relationship between the games and the meta-world.
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Old 2012-04-30, 21:04   Link #28644
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Except for when the rules change. Or when the rules muddy.

Or if the completely illusory nature of the difference between the two Battlers acts as a perfect allegory for the psychological turmoil of a certain other character...
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Old 2012-04-30, 21:41   Link #28645
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Yeah, when thinking about it this way. The scene where Battler says that Ange is his little sister in red? I like to interpret that as being how it doesn't matter about blood relations, sentimentally they are brother and sister. It becomes even more heartwarming that way.
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Old 2012-05-01, 01:06   Link #28646
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Or if the completely illusory nature of the difference between the two Battlers acts as a perfect allegory for the psychological turmoil of a certain other character...
An interesting observation. Identity sure is blurry in Umineko... all over the place.
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Old 2012-05-01, 09:41   Link #28647
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I like to interpret that as being how it doesn't matter about blood relations
I never got why people sort of ignored that apart from this being proven by adoption, THEY ARE STILL BLOOD RELATIVES. Battler may not have known at the time they were bonafied brother and sister, but at the least he knew they were half brother and sister. Do Japanese people not thing this counts?
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Old 2012-05-01, 13:03   Link #28648
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The thing is, Ange didn't KNOW they were blood relatives, which is why people for for the "sentimental" route. It's generally assumed that you can't speak a red if you don't know it's true, otherwise we could be having shit like testing God's existence.
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Old 2012-05-01, 14:05   Link #28649
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Wait, what? Ange didn't know they were blood relatives? Didn't EVERYONE know that both of them were Rudolf's children?
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Old 2012-05-01, 14:14   Link #28650
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Wait, what? Ange didn't know they were blood relatives? Didn't EVERYONE know that both of them were Rudolf's children?
I assume they mean exact blood relatives, i.e. that neither knew they were both Kyrie's kids. Or something. I'm not aware of them ever suggesting they had different fathers, other than Battler's crazy ep5 speculation which he was clearly just doing to stall.
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Old 2012-05-01, 14:31   Link #28651
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Yeah, I meant fully blood related, I was never denying them being related. I was talking about the bond they had togethor shortly before we all ate angeburgers.
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Old 2012-05-01, 14:46   Link #28652
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My two cents on Yasu's Gender: The way I see it, the only way to figure out much about Yasu is by comparing him/her to Lion. It seems to me that Yasu doesn't really worry about his/her own gender much like Lion doesn't seem to want to worry about it. (S)he is probably more sure of herself than we give him/her credit for.

As for the wound (s)he suffered, (s)he probably received it on his/her head since not only is (s)he clumsy (which means his/her sense of balance is off), (s)he can't grow much either (since (s)he was able to pass as elementary schooler, more than likely his/her body's sense of growth is off as well). The damage was probably taken near her hypothalamus (and probably hit her cerebellum too). This probably affected her hair growth too since she commonly wears wigs, meaning she doesn't have as much hair as Lion does.

My two cents on Battler: The game makes it clear that Piece and Master are different, but it allows the thoughts of the Master to interface those of the Piece. So it looks like they are almost the same person

As for his relationship with Ange, I doubt anyone other than Rudolf knew that both of them were Kyrie's children. And I doubt that whether they are direct or half- siblings matter as in any case Ange is still Battler's sister.
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Old 2012-05-01, 20:22   Link #28653
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Blonde hair, for starters, along with very Mary Sue-ish character traits. (Loved by everyone? In THIS fucking family? Yea right.)
Whaaat? You know as well as I do that Lion isn't any blonder than Eva is a natural ginger. And it's not really far-fetched for a kid like that to be well liked by almost everyone, since Battler, George, and Jessica ALSO share an amiable relationship with just about everyone. Like, the worst you get is Kyrie's Asumu issues when she's around Battler, but she apparently gets over it well enough to visit him with Ange, mentor him a bit, and casually discuss castrating his Rudolf.

Anyways, maybe I was a bit gung-ho with my thinking about Yasu's gender, just now, especially since I forgot that a wound was, at one point, mentioned. I was just thinking that we might've been oversimplifying things, as apparently there's just a whole plethora of gender identities, expressions, and physical situations that don't fit into what we think of as "male" and "female" very well at all. I also sort of prefer the theme in End / Dawn of "different memories and experiences = WHOLE DIFFERENT PERSON" to some derivation of smashed-up jumblies / brain damage, though I'll acknowledge that they arent mutually exclusive.

NOW I'm thinking that similar to "which persona is controlling dat body right now?" issues, that Ryukishi may not have even fully thought out what "what" of Yasu's gender issues, opting instead to present the general sentiment of "gender issues are present". Which I guess I can also accept. Especially since he pretty much stated in one interview that he "wasn't interested in hiking up her skirt" or something to that effect. What I most remember, though, was him saying something like "If she'd just told George the truth, he'd prolly have been cool with it, actually." C'est la vie.
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Old 2012-05-01, 20:32   Link #28654
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You do realize that while "half-sibling" is a term used to describe someone who only shares one parent in common, the definition of "sibling" is
Quote:
sibĚling/ˈsibliNG/
Noun:
Each of two or more children or offspring having one or both parents in common; a brother or sister.
Synonyms:
brother - sister
(Google, Merriam-Webster)
Ange is my little sister.
Battler is Ange's brother from another mother. </badjoke>

And:

Quote:
It's generally assumed that you can't speak a red if you don't know it's true, otherwise we could be having shit like testing God's existence.
Except now you're ignoring Beato and Battler's confusion in EP4, which they were *sure* that Battler was Asumu's and Rudolf's son, even though he wasn't, also EP6's Logic Error which *implied* Battler could say anything he wanted even if he didn't have an answer for.

Quote:
(Loved by everyone? In THIS fucking family? Yea right.)
Jessica and Lion's relationship isn't all happy butterflies. Although I like BATTLER's sentiment in EP8. There are a few things even back in EP1:

Quote:
Huh? It looks like he's having a friendly chat with the rest of the family, doesn't it? It was a normal yearly get-together.
No family is happy butterflies all the time, but I don't believe that the Ushiromiya's were as disgusting as they're made out to be.

Battler, Beatrice, and Eva all helped to keep the catbox's lid closed for Ange. For whatever reason...
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Old 2012-05-01, 22:47   Link #28655
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Except now you're ignoring Beato and Battler's confusion in EP4, which they were *sure* that Battler was Asumu's and Rudolf's son, even though he wasn't, also EP6's Logic Error which *implied* Battler could say anything he wanted even if he didn't have an answer for.
That is the thing with red text, isn't it? As it stands now, I'm pretty certain Battler should be able to say Ushiromiya Asumu was my mother. It was from her that I was born., assuming his sentiment about what it means to be a mother and "born from" have changed accordingly.

The Logic error is slightly different, IMO, because those truths were about a gameboard, and not having a prepared solution would sort of ... it seemed like it would invalidate the gameboard, which was not desired. Essentially, an author going "Yeah, toitally did not think that one through", followed by the irked reader throwing their book on the ground, stepping on it, calling said author a hack and walking away in a huff.


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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Jessica and Lion's relationship isn't all happy butterflies. Although I like BATTLER's sentiment in EP8. There are a few things even back in EP1:
It's still pretty keen. What, she's somewhat irked by being compared academically all the time, like how she usually is with George, just more often. And Lion apparently has free impunity to pinch butts - but it's still pretty playful, and she's the kind of girl who doesn't shy away from roughhousing, anyways.
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Old 2012-05-02, 02:19   Link #28656
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So I've been watching that silly nine hour video lately.

The arguments to 'disprove' Shkanon are pretty stupid and not even necessary, but I thought his solution to the logic error was pretty interesting. Basically Kanon escaped from the cousins' room between the time when Battler confirmed everyone's location and the time Dlanor confirmed that the rooms were sealed. Then Kanon was the one who left the letter regarding Battler's corpse. Then Kanon went and 'rescued' Battler, Erika (who had killed five victims and was looking for the last) deduced that he must be in the closet, and she shot through the closet, causing Kanon to cease to exist (represented in meta by her throwing the spears at the closet).

What do you guys think of this?
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Old 2012-05-02, 03:41   Link #28657
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
So I've been watching that silly nine hour video lately.

The arguments to 'disprove' Shkanon are pretty stupid and not even necessary, but I thought his solution to the logic error was pretty interesting. Basically Kanon escaped from the cousins' room between the time when Battler confirmed everyone's location and the time Dlanor confirmed that the rooms were sealed. Then Kanon was the one who left the letter regarding Battler's corpse. Then Kanon went and 'rescued' Battler, Erika (who had killed five victims and was looking for the last) deduced that he must be in the closet, and she shot through the closet, causing Kanon to cease to exist (represented in meta by her throwing the spears at the closet).

What do you guys think of this?
I have to admit it's a possible interpretation, and since no other puzzle requires ShKanon, it allows him to theorize as he wants, but...

I always thought the implication was that the rooms were instantly and completely retroactive-meta-sealed with Erika's declaration, so I don't really buy it. Besides, what'd be the point of all the set up by Erika if it left such an obvious weak spot like that?

KnownNoMore's explanation for why Kanon went into the closet is the worst part, though, because he refuses to accept any kind of meta-motives. And IIRC he said that Kanon had even realized that Erika was a crazed killer who had already murdered the fakers, but then still decided to risk his life just to preserve the illusion of a closed room for Beatrice's sake (the motive of which is complicated nonsense). And of course KnownNoMore doesn't seem to realize that Kanon wouldn't even succeed in preserving the closed room mystery anyway, since once Erika would look into the closet and see Kanon's corpse, the illusion of the closed room would be broken. Bleh. Yuck.
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Old 2012-05-02, 04:38   Link #28658
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I thought some of the disappearing bodies required Shkannon, certainly for anything Will said to be true we do.

Meanwhile I actually thought the idea that she shot into the closet was possible on the gameboard anyway (and then probably spouted some fact about third-rate detective novels and assuming someone was shot before opening the door for the double tap), just without the Meta aspect of the guessing game it wouldn't have made sense. You are right, she'd just open the door and be all "lol, totes wrong body. Oh well, it's kanon now"
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Old 2012-05-02, 08:07   Link #28659
Drifloon
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Yeah, I hadn't watched the part about the motive when I wrote that. That's pretty stupid.

Oh well, it was still a kind of neat solution. I think Renall's is probably better, though.
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Old 2012-05-02, 08:41   Link #28660
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Yeah, I hadn't watched the part about the motive when I wrote that. That's pretty stupid.

Oh well, it was still a kind of neat solution. I think Renall's is probably better, though.
Actually as silly as my solution is, I think a point I raised in it - and one Wanderer pointed out - is something that all but has to be true. The room sealing must be retroactively coterminous with the location check, otherwise what possible good is the location check?

There's several issues you'd have to consider that make this seem reasonable:
  • The obvious "Kanon just left after the check" solution. This is so simple that it seems stupid and clearly unintentional. It would make Erika beyond stupid to never consider that possibility, and it would make Battler and Beatrice stupid for not just going with that super-obvious idea.
  • Erika and Dlanor made a big to-do about the other First Twilight victims being unable to rescue Battler. Clearly, movement after the location check is presumed possible (merely rendered impossible by Erika's murders for the FT victims), because it would have been possible for the people in unsealed rooms to do so. If Erika isn't accounting for the people in sealed rooms, clearly she believes that everyone she put in the rooms are going to have to stay there for some reason, and the only reason she has is the seals.
  • There wouldn't even need to be an argument about the window in the next room over if Shannon could just leave before Erika sealed it. The emphasis on the window seal being actually broken suggests that, to leave the room at all, Shannon would have to leave after the sealing.
The problems are evident in some of what I jokingly touched on though: If this is true, why doesn't Erika explicitly disclaim herself as well as Kinzo, and how did she construct a "closed" room, which is different from a "sealed" room, from outside of it? Read a certain way, Erika puts herself in a Logic Error long before she can ever entrap Battler by rendering it impossible for her to enter Battler's guestroom... unless you accept my silly argument that "the cousins' room" actually is defined as "the room containing 'everyone else.'"

You could argue that Erika knows her own location, but she explicitly isn't the detective, so her own understanding of her piece's position is theoretically up in the air. Battler would most likely be sporting in that respect, but then again, Erika's blatantly cheating with her perspective so I don't see why Battler should feel inclined to keep playing along (unless he's just humoring her because Genius Battler).

I'm inclined to think this was just oversight on Ryukishi's part. I imagine that, had he revised this, or perhaps in the manga if it were pointed out before that volume came out (like the boiler room door), he'd just have Erika say "since Kinzo is confirmed not to exist, please exclude him. And of course, please exclude me as well, since my location is outside the room."
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