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Old 2012-05-07, 10:27   Link #28721
GreyZone
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LOL, what a troll post. Is this based on that multiple-hours youtube vid?

Anyway, I can answer this and I feel free to do it completly in red:


1. With your theory EP3-8 would be completly pointless, so it is FALSE!

2. The whole story about Eva surviving would be wrong, so it is FALSE!

3. Not only that but almost the whole story is unnecassary and BS, which leads again to: see "1.", so it is FALSE!

4. Who is the murderer of Nanjo in EP3? You cannot answer it, so it is FALSE!

5. What about the EP6 logic error? You cannot answer it, so it is FALSE!

6. What about the EP2 perfect closed room? You cannot answer it, so it is FALSE!

THIS TRIAL IS FINISHED! DIE THE DEATH, SENTENCED TO DEATH, THE GREAT EQUALIZER IS DEATH!



Oh and to add to it:

I guarantee, that the theory you use right now, as it is, is WRONG!

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-05-07 at 10:40.
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Old 2012-05-07, 12:07   Link #28722
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But the question is who and why would tell Battler the solution? For what purpose? Seeing as how Battler cooperated with Erika all the time it makes little sense that he's been told so to become the new heir. Why would he need to cooperate with a complete stranger if he already knew the solution?
Battler wasn't solving the epitaph; he was following Erika as she solved it, pretending to solve it with her. Battler never really contributed anything to the solution that Erika wasn't already on to. For example, Erika was already obviously searching for an atlas when Battler came into the library and brought up the "new" hint- the one he supposedly got from talking with Rosa- about the epitaph being a journey.

I haven't really thought of a satisfying "why" for Battler knowing the epitaph's solution, however.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Especially considering that he already understood she was a bad person before pointing to the right direction.
This is actually an important point, but it's relevant in either scenario, right? So the question here becomes: Why does Battler continue cooperating with Erika even after he learns she's evil?

Come to think of it, it's pretty interesting that the Kinzo vision occurs when Erika is explaining what she thinks will happen with the family conference after the discovery of the gold. This means that if Battler was actually listening, which he likely was (since the Kinzo vision is false), he would have heard from Erika herself exactly what she expected (murder, no doubt). Now, we don't know exactly what Erika said, but if Battler knows what Erika thinks will happen, it puts him in the perfect position to play upon her expectations and act the roll of "Beatrice" against her, the "detective".

There's also the meta-perspective: What meta-agenda does it serve by explaining Battler's spotting of the turned statue with the Kinzo vision; and what meta-agenda does it serve to also leave out Erika's predictions in favor of showing us the Kinzo vision?
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Old 2012-05-07, 14:31   Link #28723
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Hm, well, I'm of the opinion that "Ryukishi portrays the pieces as they generally were in their actual lives", so I don't view it as Battler getting objectively smarter, but being given the chance to show off his intelligence in different situations. A large part of it IMO is just that Battler is, with certainty, an accomplice of some sort in both End and Dawn, and doesn't think his parents have been literally murder-fied and de-faced in the shed or something.

Also, it doesn't say when exactly Tohya got his old memories back, but he claims to eventually remember being Battler extreeeemely well, and it's only the 86' conference that remains fuzzy.
Seems like it's the memories he definitively don't want to remember.


Quote:
Also, I rather agree with ndqanh_vn's sentiment about Yasu's love being, sometimes, less than the thing we'd usually associate the word with. Rather, I think she acknowledged a lot of genuine loving emotions, but she doesn't seem to consider Jessica a very viable option, and Yasu / Battler, in Prime, barely have ANY sort of actual relationship. Beato and Meta Battler have a pretty strong one, but I don't equate Beatrice and Yasu in that respect. At any rate, one wonders what the "smaller, curious incident" she was planning in 1986 before knowing Battler was returning would have been.
Yasu definitively THINK she cannot love. It's not too surprising that we don't agree that her feelings are love, as she probably doesn't feel that way herself about it.

Tho I guess, in a way Yasu's feelings isn't that weird. Sure normal people don't pretend to be two other people then who they actually are, but pretty much everyone gives to others personas of themselves that aren't exactly their true selves. It's probably easiest to understand it with a different kind of example tho : It's like someone who is really good looking and has others falling for them simply because of their looks, and uncaring about their personalities.
I think that's more or less Yasu's situation. She's unable to "be herself" and the feelings she has for others and that others have for her are based on basically lies. I think to some extent a lot of people on the net can more or less understand Yasu's situation.

It sorta reminds me, in a way, of MGS2's relation between Rose and Raiden. In the end, she was a victim too and sorta made it know.

Actually that's a relatively good question imo : Is Shannon and Kanon actual personas or just roles? It imo implies a lot depending on which way it goes including how legimately it can bypass red.


Also I'm thinking that Battler ends up with Beato (and not with Yasu) is overly meaningful.

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Originally Posted by PsychoShion View Post
stuff
There's no way this is right. There's a sort of simple calculation, I believe, that allows anyone to know how good/bad their theories are. It's pretty simple too. Ryuukishi wouldn't have written a story the size of the bible to make us discard most of it in the trash. I'm not saying that unless a theory incorporates 100% of Umineko's data that it makes sense, but overall that should be a "guide". The more you have to discard as "entirely useless/troll" the more your theory is wrong. This is somewhat the state of Shkanontrice. Even tho not that many people like the theory, the alternative means throwing most of Umineko to the trash, which is just not productive.
That should be especially true, I should say, of anything that tries to contradict OC.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-05-07 at 14:41.
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Old 2012-05-07, 18:30   Link #28724
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Battler wasn't solving the epitaph; he was following Erika as she solved it, pretending to solve it with her. Battler never really contributed anything to the solution that Erika wasn't already on to. For example, Erika was already obviously searching for an atlas when Battler came into the library and brought up the "new" hint- the one he supposedly got from talking with Rosa- about the epitaph being a journey.

I haven't really thought of a satisfying "why" for Battler knowing the epitaph's solution, however.
Well, it actually seems as he too is solving pieces of it, not just following Erika.
It's Battler that presents part of the reasoning done to solve the epitaph, with Erika just saying something along the line of 'yes, I thought so too' instead than, 'yes, that's what I'm saying/said to you previously'... They seem to have worked on it in the same way in which they solved the riddle given by Maria in EP 6, each of them reaching the same solution.
If anything however I can think that the only clue Erika somehow figured out and Battler didn't is the fact that the beloved hometown was in Taiwan... though actually it's possible Battler went to the library because he had figured/remembered/being told it and just didn't feel like jumping on an atlas with Erika around.

It's also possible that Battler really had been handed the solution for some reason and was there merely to pretend he reached the solution searching in the library. Erika being there and doing the work for him just made things easier.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
This is actually an important point, but it's relevant in either scenario, right? So the question here becomes: Why does Battler continue cooperating with Erika even after he learns she's evil?
Either he had his own hidden agenda or he thought he could handle the situation. Maybe he didn't though the adults would react like that but just in case he called all the adults and had them discuss away from his cousins' ears...

Metaphorically speaking, seeing Kinzo might represent some sort of him taking responsiblity for the situation they're in.

If he'd pulled back from solving the epitaph, Erika would have solved it and would have owned the gold. If he doesn't know Kinzo is dead he could legittimately think that if Erika were to find the gold Kinzo would let it to her.
All considered the blow would be worse for Jessica if he were to find the gold in place of Erika (though probably he's also being naive).

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Come to think of it, it's pretty interesting that the Kinzo vision occurs when Erika is explaining what she thinks will happen with the family conference after the discovery of the gold. This means that if Battler was actually listening, which he likely was (since the Kinzo vision is false), he would have heard from Erika herself exactly what she expected (murder, no doubt). Now, we don't know exactly what Erika said, but if Battler knows what Erika thinks will happen, it puts him in the perfect position to play upon her expectations and act the roll of "Beatrice" against her, the "detective".

There's also the meta-perspective: What meta-agenda does it serve by explaining Battler's spotting of the turned statue with the Kinzo vision; and what meta-agenda does it serve to also leave out Erika's predictions in favor of showing us the Kinzo vision?
Well, the Kinzo's vision was supposed to be the clue to prove that Battler wasn't the detective. The Kinzo's vision is false but Battler might have been lost in his own thoughts so he still might have missed Erika's statement.
Or not believed it. He seems to trust his relatives, he wouldn't expect them to try and kill each other, maybe to argue but likely he would think Erika was exaggerating if she were to say they'll kill each other.

Though yes, Erika might have been saying something interesting.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I think that's more or less Yasu's situation. She's unable to "be herself" and the feelings she has for others and that others have for her are based on basically lies. I think to some extent a lot of people on the net can more or less understand Yasu's situation.
This fits with my impression of her own situation. She's sort of trapped by the role she plays.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Actually that's a relatively good question imo : Is Shannon and Kanon actual personas or just roles? It imo implies a lot depending on which way it goes including how legimately it can bypass red.
I think they're sort of both. They were imaginary friends she planned carefully and which she roleplayed no stop.
She gave them a character but she ended up living their experiences... which in a fashion should have been very confusing for her.

Having an imaginary friend and saying 'oh, she's dating with George' and fantasyzing over it is a thing, playing the role of that imaginary friend and dating George and being on the receiving end of his affection must be something else.

So, even through it was 'Shannon' who was supposed to love George and 'Kanon' who was supposed to love Jessica in the end she was the one receiving the love of Jessica and George... though neither of the two knew he was loving her.

I wonder if George is the love duel winner merely because Shannon, who had birth as her superego/role model, is more similar to the real Yasu than Kanon and therefore 'stronger'.
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Old 2012-05-08, 07:05   Link #28725
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Some random thoughts I had:

- It is interesting that in the story Bern tells (the witch of miracles), Eva has so many incredibly close misses. Almost a miracle she didn't get shot either time (and possibly Beatrice)...

- Why the heck DID Eva shoot the gun in Ep3, it need not necessarily have shot Battler mind you, just been fired.

- A few people have toted the whole "Yasu planned a murder mystery (is therefore innocent), but my confessions sort of implies it would be hard to get some (*cough Natsuhi cough*) to go along with it. If you say she used blackmail, that doesn't seem very innocent.

- Did Kanon/Shannon ever truly come back to life post personality death? If they never actually played a role again after they were declared red dead, then it is as pretty much as legitimate as Sakutaro being dead and Krauss being dead.
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Old 2012-05-08, 08:46   Link #28726
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
- A few people have toted the whole "Yasu planned a murder mystery (is therefore innocent), but my confessions sort of implies it would be hard to get some (*cough Natsuhi cough*) to go along with it. If you say she used blackmail, that doesn't seem very innocent.
one interpretation is that in Rokkenjima Prime she planned a fake murder mystery (with people only pretending to be dead) but then something went wrong and someone (other than Yasu) started to kill people for real.
On the games themselves Yasu planned a mass murder for real and she killed people for real with her own hands. There isn't much debate on this part since it is clear enough. As to how she managed to get people on her side: bribes, blackmails, and lies.

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Did Kanon/Shannon ever truly come back to life post personality death? If they never actually played a role again after they were declared red dead, then it is as pretty much as legitimate as Sakutaro being dead and Krauss being dead.
Inside the same game? You mean episode 3, I suppose? Well apart from the times they were "resurrected" for George and Jessica I don't think so.
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Old 2012-05-08, 09:08   Link #28727
GreyZone
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- A few people have toted the whole "Yasu planned a murder mystery (is therefore innocent), but my confessions sort of implies it would be hard to get some (*cough Natsuhi cough*) to go along with it. If you say she used blackmail, that doesn't seem very innocent.
In EP6 Natsuhi had no problem to play along, it seems.

Also, isn't Our Confessions just another "game"?
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Old 2012-05-08, 11:22   Link #28728
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It's the writing of a game, which is different.

Besides, my point is whether a fictional murder mystery or a serial murder, it seems hard to imagine Natsuhi getting involved without some sort of pressure. Ep 6 is a little out of character in that manner, besides, we don't know how Battler convinced them to play along in game....
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Old 2012-05-08, 11:39   Link #28729
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Also, from waaaaay back in ep1, it is interesting they never even hinted about what was in Natsuhi's final letter, the one that took her outside
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Old 2012-05-08, 12:14   Link #28730
GreyZone
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Also, from waaaaay back in ep1, it is interesting they never even hinted about what was in Natsuhi's final letter, the one that took her outside
My guess:

"NAAAAAAAAAAATSUHIIIII! If you want the children to be safe, then come and confront me, the "child from 19 years ago", the golden witch! You can find me, where i always have been!" (last part refering to the portrait in the entrance hall)


Ok maybe not like this, but i guess something along these lines could be it.


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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
It's the writing of a game, which is different.

Besides, my point is whether a fictional murder mystery or a serial murder, it seems hard to imagine Natsuhi getting involved without some sort of pressure. Ep 6 is a little out of character in that manner, besides, we don't know how Battler convinced them to play along in game....
It is not really out of character. It does not even have to be Blackmailing, but more like a "Deal".
Blackmailing would be along the lines of EP5, where she is pressured with the incident of the "child from 19 years ago".
a Deal would mean that "if she does this and that, she gets some of the gold/money from the credit card, to deal with her family's financial problems.

I don't see how the "Deal" would be something negative in this aspect. So if she was bribed, it would be no problem and possibly everyone could be happy... and I think playing along with a murder mystery game would be a small "shamelessness", compared to the PRIZE. But it seems a bomb exploded (+possibly murders occured before that) and terminated this happy ending.
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Old 2012-05-08, 12:50   Link #28731
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My opinion on Natsuhi's letter in EP1 was that it was basically Yasu confessing that she tricked Natsuhi and the people that she had been led to believe were faking were in fact dead. Then Natsuhi chased after her and confronted her, so Yasu shot her.

Also, if Rosa found a similar letter in EP2 (perhaps on Shannon's corpse), that might explain why she suddenly panics, grabs the gold and tries to get off the island at the end.
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Old 2012-05-08, 19:20   Link #28732
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I don't see how the "Deal" would be something negative in this aspect. So if she was bribed, it would be no problem and possibly everyone could be happy... and I think playing along with a murder mystery game would be a small "shamelessness", compared to the PRIZE. But it seems a bomb exploded (+possibly murders occurred before that) and terminated this happy ending.
It's a tough one though, since in one ep we specifically see Natsuhi choosing honour over money (ie wouldn't sell off the family name), but Ep 5 was basically about her willingness to do anything to keep the family afloat.
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Old 2012-05-08, 23:23   Link #28733
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It's a tough one though, since in one ep we specifically see Natsuhi choosing honour over money (ie wouldn't sell off the family name), but Ep 5 was basically about her willingness to do anything to keep the family afloat.
Honor isn't necessarily virtue. To make a horrible generalization, Asian cultures tend to focus more on maintaining family standing, while Western cultures focus more on personal morality. It's a matter of the relative influences of Confuciusm (filial piety) vs Christianity (avoiding sin). Or you could say it's shame vs guilt.

So Natsuhi, who aspires to be "the good Japanese wife", might be willing to do some shady things for the sake of the family, so long as she doesn't get caught.
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Old 2012-05-09, 18:37   Link #28734
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Going back to Shkanon and loooove, it's wierd. I'm reading through the 'Answer of the Golden Witch" interview, and even Ryukishi keeps doubling back on the culpability and placement of the personas. For example, at one point he says Shannon is the first and mostpowerful spectator of their worldview, but also compared the personas to "software", in that "he piece, Shannon" isn't the murderer. It's weird and evasive and Keiya's style of questioning does nothing to help matters.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
My guess:

"NAAAAAAAAAAATSUHIIIII! If you want the children to be safe, then come and confront me, the "child from 19 years ago", the golden witch! You can find me, where i always have been!" (last part refering to the portrait in the entrance hall)
I rather like this as the final note. It makes sense, and I far prefer there being a letter to the possibility of having Maria just lie about one. I can only assume Yasu was going for a big reveal, since the kids do claim to see her at the very end, and really, at that point it's not like they would've been able to escape to Kuwadorian anyway. In fact, the situation becames pretty moot if their still in the mansion past, like, 11:30pm on the second night.

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It's a tough one though, since in one ep we specifically see Natsuhi choosing honour over money (ie wouldn't sell off the family name), but Ep 5 was basically about her willingness to do anything to keep the family afloat.
Yeah. Kratsuhi is an interesting choice for accomplices. On the one hand, it's the adult couple that allows the MOST versatile options with the least costs / chance of defection. They can also be approached at any point before the conference, to allow for whatever ridiculous setups might be required. Krauss seemed to be willing to go ahead because it was convenient, though Our Confessions seemed to imply that even on the understanding that NO ONE would actually die, Natsuhi basically had to be forced with the threat of exploding Jessica.

I'unno - it's sort of like the Forgery No.xxx TIP, right? With the evil crazy Battler? Even though Battler would likely have no substantive reason to wanna just start choking bitches? But outside of Kanon being kinda miffed, he and Ronove still seemed to be willing to go on with it as though it were a totally legitimate game, like all the others they give a passing mention to.
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Old 2012-05-10, 12:48   Link #28735
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You know, I had a thought about the commonly accepted Episode 5 theory the other day: how does Krauss' disappearance and red-confirmed death tie into the 'farce set up to make Natsuhi reveal Kinzo's death' theory?

I mean, for one thing, it's hard to imagine Krauss was actually part of the conspiracy, since he'd have absolutely nothing to gain from it, so his disappearance can't have been of his own will. So who kidnapped him, and who killed him? (Remember, it was said in red that he died soon after Natsuhi received the phone call - so it can't be a "well, he died when the bomb went off with everyone else" worldplay.) And why are the conspirators not worried about someone disappearing outside their plan? In fact, if it was outside their plan, then why didn't they have a sixth fake victim set up? If Krauss hadn't disappeared, after all, there would be one too few sacrifices for the first twilight.
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Old 2012-05-10, 13:55   Link #28736
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The first question to ask there is, who did it?

It doesn't seem it would be the anti-Natsuhi conspirators as they do not appear to actually be trying to murder anyone. Furthermore, Krauss is unlikely to participate in such a conspiracy and so at the very least it would be quite criminal to kidnap him, let alone actually kill him.

Erika at the very least doesn't seem aware of or concerned about it. Why not? Shouldn't she be? If she suspects a conspiracy of sorts and is playing into it, or is just falling for the conspiracy pointing her toward Natsuhi, shouldn't the whole Krauss thing stand out?

If it was the servants and/or MF19YA, when was Krauss taken? When was he killed? Why was he killed; what would that have helped?
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Old 2012-05-10, 14:28   Link #28737
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Some random thoughts I had:

- It is interesting that in the story Bern tells (the witch of miracles), Eva has so many incredibly close misses. Almost a miracle she didn't get shot either time (and possibly Beatrice)...
Well, Umineko has many 'miracles' in... think at Yasu that survives the fall from a cliff for example. Though I've always found it a bit strange that Kyrie didn't check if he killed her the first time and I've been tempted to think that the second time she let herself be shoot (because Eva has apparently no shooting experience while Kyrie is quite good at it so it's strange she would lose and Eva win) because she lost Rudolf and so she goated Eva into shooting her.

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- Why the heck DID Eva shoot the gun in Ep3, it need not necessarily have shot Battler mind you, just been fired.
I think that can possibly be a hint that Eva shoot at someone in Prime. Though well, since EP 3 needs to end with Eva as the only survivor and Battler was following her she couldn't reach Kuwadorian without getting rid of Battler. Yasu wanted to have Battler either killed by the bomb or figuring things out so it's unlikely she would have shoot him so, plotwise, Eva shooting Battler was the only option to have that result (though Eva could have also used one of her kick to cause Battler to faint...).

Let's remember EP 3 is a fiction that aimed to have the same result as the one that people supposed Prime had so Battler 'had to die'.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
- A few people have toted the whole "Yasu planned a murder mystery (is therefore innocent), but my confessions sort of implies it would be hard to get some (*cough Natsuhi cough*) to go along with it. If you say she used blackmail, that doesn't seem very innocent.
Well, in the games she isn't supposed to be innocent. In Prime however, as we're even told in EP 8 that the family used to celebrate halloween, a murder game might have even been a game all the family agreed to play at.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
- Did Kanon/Shannon ever truly come back to life post personality death? If they never actually played a role again after they were declared red dead, then it is as pretty much as legitimate as Sakutaro being dead and Krauss being dead.
We don't know if they came back to life or if the scenes in which they do it are fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
You know, I had a thought about the commonly accepted Episode 5 theory the other day: how does Krauss' disappearance and red-confirmed death tie into the 'farce set up to make Natsuhi reveal Kinzo's death' theory?

I mean, for one thing, it's hard to imagine Krauss was actually part of the conspiracy, since he'd have absolutely nothing to gain from it, so his disappearance can't have been of his own will. So who kidnapped him, and who killed him? (Remember, it was said in red that he died soon after Natsuhi received the phone call - so it can't be a "well, he died when the bomb went off with everyone else" worldplay.) And why are the conspirators not worried about someone disappearing outside their plan? In fact, if it was outside their plan, then why didn't they have a sixth fake victim set up? If Krauss hadn't disappeared, after all, there would be one too few sacrifices for the first twilight.
My guess is that the siblings either kidnapped him but didn't plan to kill him, they just thought that dealing with Natsuhi alone would be easier, or believed he was playing kidnapped and in truth he was kidnapped by Yasu with the servants' help.

Note that Erika's solution isn't the right one but Lambda allowed it to be accepted without countering her theories with some red. So even if Erika said/thought that Krauss was killing by Natsuhi and Kinzo and overlook the phonecall threatening Natushi in the same way she didn't solve the mystery about the letter, Lambda wouldn't pressure her into doing so.
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Old 2012-05-10, 14:43   Link #28738
Drifloon
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But if the siblings did kidnap him with no intention to kill, why did he die soon after?

And why would the siblings think he was pretending to be kidnapped? Remember, there's no reason for Krauss to be part of the fake murder game.
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Old 2012-05-10, 16:55   Link #28739
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
But if the siblings did kidnap him with no intention to kill, why did he die soon after?

And why would the siblings think he was pretending to be kidnapped? Remember, there's no reason for Krauss to be part of the fake murder game.
- Yasu was following her own agenda. She let the siblings believe it was merely a fake murdering game which had the purpose of make natsuhi reveal the truth and then she killed him (though it's also possible Kyrie went into 'EP 7 TeaParty' mode but I find it harder to believe).

- Krauss is trying to cover up for Kinzo's death. They might think he wants to avoid taking responsibilities for what he did faking his own death.
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Old 2012-05-10, 18:33   Link #28740
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I think we're on the same page here though. It's a matter of when things happen. By the time Beatrice finds out Battler will be returning to the island, then yes, she realized she hadn't lost all her feelings for him. (Although for Beatrice it turned out a lot more to be resentment that Battler had forgotten his promise. But she wouldn't have cared if she really did give up on him.)

What I meant is during the quotes in EP2, which were flashbacks to Shannon and George's growing relationship, that then, Beatrice and Shannon had given up on Battler and it was an honest relationship that they were trying to grow. Until Shannon finds out George wants tons of kids. Then even though she still loves George, she knows there's no future with him. (Honestly, she didn't really need to be so fatalistic, although I can understand she had no confidence in herself... heh)


I'll dig for the interviews in a bit. It's a much earlier one, I think, where he talked about their relationship.
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Amusingly enough I thought it was the reverse. Jessica's feelings for Kanon do seem more superficial like what Battler/Shannon had, if anything the narration implied as much IIRC. In fact that when Kanon asked her she likes him that she had no real answer.

Also given that Kanon lost the love duel implies anyway that love was not that strong.



Just wondering, why does it have to be one or the other? My impression is that Shannon/Beatrice both loved George and Battler as I do consider that Kannon/Shannon/Beatrice is basically one person like Claire/Yasuda. It is very possible that you can have feelings for two people. If anything that is what I gathered from the whole situation is that Yasuda was in love with three people but was unsure what future/relationship to pursuit since objectively looking that they are not that great.

George: she is unable to provide the future that he wants
Jessica: the relationship does not seem like something that will be that long
lasting(seems more like one of those high-school relationships)
Battler: seems to not care what ever became of Shannon

I do think that the



Like I said that instead of being masks, furnitures, fake personalties etc that Kanon/Shannon/Beatrice are portions of Yasuda's heart as they have been described as being incomplete souls.

If the murder game was described as a roulette that the game, in fact Kanon was described as the 0 in the game. I do think that implies that Kanon can win the game as well despite the low odds. In fact in game 3 that Kanon gets another chance but loses despite the heavy odds.

Claire did say that she would have still struggled with the love duel and an incident would have happened only that wouldn't have magnified to the extent like it did when Battler came back. That does not imply to me that the servants already lost by the time Yasu went crazy when s/he learned that Battler was coming back.




Lion and Yasu are two different people. Also believe it or not that relationships develop via many different circumstances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think she loved George, thought not as much as she loved/believed to love Battler.
An interesting point in EP 7 is that it shows a Yasu seems to desperately need some kindness.



George was kind with her, filling a need Yasu had and winning, if not her total and unconditional love, a god deal of her affection. Probably, if Battler hadn't been back, she would have never questioned her love for George.
And Ryukishi07 himself implied she had feelings for him.



My main problem is that Lion doesn't seem to be crushing over Battler or George (though Lion sayshe/she has a good relation with Battler). So, unless Lion is hiding his/her feeling, the fact that Battler is the best choice for Yasu is just due to the setting Yasu is in.

Though in regards to George/Battler, I think the problem was that for George she felt strong affection, not love, and that she had spent 6 years idealizing her love for Battler. Out of sheer luck (or due to serious misfortune) when Battler comes back after 6 years, he still fits her ideal.
However in those 6 years Battler might have changed so much she couldn't have been capable to stand the sign of him.
So maybe Yasu is right and fate REALLY hates her.
Hmmm... Well I'll just say that I now agree with the assumption that Shannon had a deep affection for George that was formed out of a desperate need for comfort.

As for my thought on Chiru Battler's differences with his Original, I was under the impression that he was always capable of having such intelligence but it was never utilized because of the fact that he was incompetent.

I assume that in Chiru, his intelligence was becoming more apparent because the truth of the game was becoming more apparent. In other words, as the games became closer to reflecting Prime- Reality, so too was Battler. So, I agree with the notion that Chiru Battler is closest to Prime Battler.

Speaking of Prime, my theory is that the explosion was by accident and that EP8 reflected what actually happened in a more mystical form. I believe the following events happened:
-Beatrice announces herself as Kinzo's illegitimate child and heir to the family fortune, who disquised herself as a servant to Ushiromiya family. Naturally the adults were suspicious but Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa assured them that it was the truth and told them of Kinzo's affairs with the other two Beatrices.

-Despite the initial stir, the family decides to host a halloween party to inaugurate Beatrice as an addition to the family. Beatrice decides to make murder mystery game out of it and everyone fakes their death with Battler, George, and Jessica as the detectives and herself as the culprit (and Maria as her accomplice).

-To add difficulty to the game, Beatrice assures the family of the existence of the Hidden Gold and says that it's their's if they can solve the epitaph. Naturally, the family solves it and finds the gold, but amidst the excitement the bomb is switched on.

-When Beatrice realizes the switch was on, she tries to tell everybody but was too late. Everybody still believed the game was still on and diligently played their parts until... *boom*. Beatrice was only able to tell Battler and Eva. Eva went to the Hidden Mansion where she was safe from the explosion while Battler and Beatrice left off the island.

-After that, well... you know the story.

As proof of all this, EP1-2's portrayal of Battler were kid- like, right? That could mean that both were probably written before the conference as what Beatrice says herself at the end of EP8 could be referring to these two stories, which she couldn't have written during the conference. Thus, as some of us have assumed, she did pre- plan the murder but not with the intent to carry out actual murders, whether the idea to make the conference a murder mystery game was probably just a fun thought she had at the moment and a good chance to make her stories a reality.
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