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Old 2012-05-10, 21:40   Link #28741
RandomAvatarFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernsel
Speaking of Prime, my theory is that the explosion was by accident and that EP8 reflected what actually happened in a more mystical form.
I've been pondering this. There's a lot of metaphors that can be seen in this Episode, and even back in EP1 it's discussed about how the family can get along pretty well.

Quote:
Beatrice decides to make murder mystery game out of it and everyone fakes their death with Battler, George, and Jessica as the detectives and herself as the culprit (and Maria as her accomplice).
We're all sure a mystery game happened. I seriously wonder why. As far as we know they could all have just been asleep when the bomb went off.
Quote:
-To add difficulty to the game, Beatrice assures the family of the existence of the Hidden Gold and says that it's their's if they can solve the epitaph.
This ignores more or less everything that was said in EP7. I think with Yasu's emotional state, that it's probable that s/he may have prepared for the bomb to go off as Claire confessed. Even though almost everything is fictional, and EP8 everyone seems out of character... having Beato/Yasu use the epitaph "for fun" is really out of her character. I don't believe that the murder game was just Yasu wanting fun for a night.

However I am all for a "peaceful" version of the story. Umineko isn't a mystery: it's an anti-fantasy. I agree though that it was an accident. My thoughts about it differ slightly. I'm still trying to tie some loose ends with my accident theory.

I'm also unsure about the time Yasu's bottles were written. I still believe that they contain almost exactly what we see as the Episodes (I know this is a discussion of its own), and if I believe that I would conclude that the bottles were written afterwards. How can this tie into an accident theory I wonder...

Maybe despite Yasu's existence as Shkanontrice, his/her bottles were just a way to deal with the pain, similar to Tohya's reasons for the forgeries. The bottles weren't Yasu's "plans" at all, but a way for Beatrice to get her message out to somebody. It can tie in with the Ikuko = Yasu theory which I'm not a fan of though but whatever...
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Old 2012-05-11, 00:03   Link #28742
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
You know, I had a thought about the commonly accepted Episode 5 theory the other day: how does Krauss' disappearance and red-confirmed death tie into the 'farce set up to make Natsuhi reveal Kinzo's death' theory?
Yeah that red has never sat well with me. Only recently have I started to form an idea of EP5 that incorporates it in a way that grants me some satisfaction.

I've been looking at EP5 differently lately, ever since I noted that Erika had explained to Battler exactly what she expected would happen after the gold's discovery would be revealed to the whole family (although instead of the contents of Erika's predictions, we readers got the Kinzo vision instead). I'm beginning to think that the fake murders were as much for messing with Erika (like in EP6) as they were for messing with Natsuhi. The conspirators may not all have had the same agenda. An example scenario would be: there are people (say Jessica, Battler, Krauss etc.) participating for the sake of screwing with Erika; then there are people (say Eva, Rudolf, Kyrie etc.) who play along with the anti-Erika game, but actually intend to somehow use the game to corner Natsuhi; meanwhile someone (say Yasu) is secretly real-killing the people who were hiding somewhere for the sake of the murder ruse.

Something like that.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
How can this tie into an accident theory I wonder...
Yasu survived and was in some way culpable for the accident. She expressed her guilt through fictional self-vilification.
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Old 2012-05-11, 07:45   Link #28743
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Shkanon(trice) died for me as a theory at the latest when Will tried to confront Shannon and Kanon at the funeral scene and was denied to do so. :x And I still can't accept it as an satisfying solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
LOL, what a troll post. Is this based on that multiple-hours youtube vid?

Anyway, I can answer this and I feel free to do it completly in red:


(...)

2. The whole story about Eva surviving would be wrong, so it is FALSE!

(...)

5. What about the EP6 logic error? You cannot answer it, so it is FALSE!

(...)

THIS TRIAL IS FINISHED! DIE THE DEATH, SENTENCED TO DEATH, THE GREAT EQUALIZER IS DEATH!


Oh, wow. I feel like you're being slightly too overconfident and going overboard here...oO
That theory might be wrong, sure, but we never know as we never got a decent and believable confirmation on ANYTHING.

Ad 1.: Why DOES Eva have to survive in the first place?! Sure, if you believe Ange's world is the continuation fo "Prime", then that might be. But even if we suppose that "troll theory" is true (I don't find it in any way less trolling than "lol Maid holds bazillions of personas who "die" on a whim", seriously), why is it impossible for Eva to surivive? o_O I don't see at all where you're coming from.

Ad 5.: And Shannon going over to Battler in Kanon's clothes just for the heck of it, letting him out, switching personalities again because it's oh-so-fun and convenient and letting the other "die" because...well...she's in the mood for it, is better? oO

I thought that someone had already established waaay back that it was perfectly possible for "normal" Kanon (or anyone else at that) to leave the room during the timespan Erika was sealing the windows from the outside, which is a plausible solution for the logic error...?
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Old 2012-05-11, 09:57   Link #28744
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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
I thought that someone had already established waaay back that it was perfectly possible for "normal" Kanon (or anyone else at that) to leave the room during the timespan Erika was sealing the windows from the outside, which is a plausible solution for the logic error...?
I discussed this briefly in my joke theory and Wanderer also brought it up, but the sealings are not a physical action Erika had to take, at least in terms of how the red treats them. The seals on the cousins' room and next room over are essentially a tacit agreement by Battler that Erika can pretend that she physically sealed the rooms, and he will inform her if those seals were ever broken. She only directly describes repairing the chain in Battler's room to re-create a "seal," and that's something which would take only a moment.

But for the location check to have any value whatsoever, Erika's retroactive room sealings (at least for the guesthouse) must occur at the time of the location check. Otherwise, as you said, the solution to the Logic Error is just "Kanon left the room before Erika finished sealing it," which is silly and something Erika should have thought about.

Basically the entire Logic Error took place within a compressed single moment even though it isn't physically possible for Erika to have sealed the two guesthouse rooms, teleported to Battler's room and repaired that chain, and then for Battler to have switched places with Kanon while Erika was distracted. We realize that these activities all took time (and largely only Erika's bathroom adventure was described in the Logic Error debate as taking any length of time), but we basically just kind of ignore them. Things like "How long did it take Kanon to get to the room Battler and Erika were in?" are basically handwaved as irrelevant values.

It's the old "spherical horse in a vacuum" joke, used for the sake of argument.
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Old 2012-05-11, 10:07   Link #28745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
Shkanon(trice) died for me as a theory at the latest when Will tried to confront Shannon and Kanon at the funeral scene and was denied to do so. :x And I still can't accept it as an satisfying solution.



Oh, wow. I feel like you're being slightly too overconfident and going overboard here...oO
That theory might be wrong, sure, but we never know as we never got a decent and believable confirmation on ANYTHING.

Ad 1.: Why DOES Eva have to survive in the first place?! Sure, if you believe Ange's world is the continuation fo "Prime", then that might be. But even if we suppose that "troll theory" is true (I don't find it in any way less trolling than "lol Maid holds bazillions of personas who "die" on a whim", seriously), why is it impossible for Eva to surivive? o_O I don't see at all where you're coming from.

Ad 5.: And Shannon going over to Battler in Kanon's clothes just for the heck of it, letting him out, switching personalities again because it's oh-so-fun and convenient and letting the other "die" because...well...she's in the mood for it, is better? oO

I thought that someone had already established waaay back that it was perfectly possible for "normal" Kanon (or anyone else at that) to leave the room during the timespan Erika was sealing the windows from the outside, which is a plausible solution for the logic error...?
Oh about that, I was just fighting fire with fire. Don't take it too seriously.


re: Ad 1.: It is more credible, because compared to the "troll theory" it does not disregard 6 Episodes completly.

re: Ad 5.: 95% of Umineko consists of the thoughts of people, or shows the content of fictions. Escpacially the message bottles are in my opinion, "symbolic fictional stories within physical possibilities". We already discussed, that for no one in the whole story, a real motive to kill everyone else exists.
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Old 2012-05-11, 10:30   Link #28746
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Pretty much what Renall said.
There is however no way to settle logically which is the right approach to solve this particular riddle. There are substantially two kinds of riddles which challenge your problem solving abilities. There is the kind that is honest in its exposition and that is challenging because the solution itself is something that requires an high level of intelligence. There is then the kind that is "challenging" only because it tricks you with words or let you assume things never mentioned (even when such assumption is a natural process of narrative interpretation).

Since in general the first kind is more appreciated to the first, most people would rather think there is an intelligent trick behind a riddle and not a stupid trick. In this specific case we also have a character who is supposed to be extremely intelligent, and one would be left with a feeling of inconsistency if Battler and Beatrice managed to win only because this superintelligent villain couldn't see an obvious hole in her defense. The instantaneous sealing of the locations checked is therefore assumed to be implied.

But this kind of logic kinda fails when you consider the riddles that were used in EP8 (Erika vs Battler and Beatrice vs Ange), which are textbook examples of riddles that seems to be challenging only because of a lack of a clear exposition of the setting. None of them would even raise a question in someone who'd actually be there.


Anyway discussing whether the solution of the final EP6 is shkanon or not is kinda moot at this point, because shkanon is widely accepted for a plethora of others unrelated reasons. And since shkanon is practically a certainty there's no need to find another explanation for that riddle.
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Old 2012-05-11, 10:30   Link #28747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yasu survived and was in some way culpable for the accident. She expressed her guilt through fictional self-vilification.
My thoughts are pretty much the same. Maybe Yasu didn't really even do much, but feels like she has... similar to Eva feeling guilty for EP3's deaths, even though she's not the real culprit.

Eva allowed EVA to exist as a way for her to keep the catbox shut. Maybe Yasu also had reasons to keep the catbox shut and used Beatrice to do it. For what reasons would both these people have to keep it shut?

I think "Troll Theory" (9 hour video theory?) is more or less what we're supposed to do though. Chiru wasn't meant to give answers. I don't agree with it, and I'm on the "Rokkenjima Bomb ACCIDENT" theory. If we just read through Requiem and think "Oh okay, that's how it was..." then it's just as bad as giving into the witch back in 1-4. Requiem's Fragment conflicts with itself even. I wouldn't go so far as deny Yasu's fragmented existence as Shkanontrice, but I would like to free Yasu from guilt...
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Old 2012-05-11, 10:35   Link #28748
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post

But for the location check to have any value whatsoever, Erika's retroactive room sealings (at least for the guesthouse) must occur at the time of the location check. Otherwise, as you said, the solution to the Logic Error is just "Kanon left the room before Erika finished sealing it," which is silly and something Erika should have thought about.
Well, okay, so we can't project anything of that to a "realistic" set of events there? It's all rather magical/meta then?
Still, I find the Shkanon-"solution" ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Oh about that, I was just fighting fire with fire. Don't take it too seriously.
Okay, though I couldn't really distinguish whether that was meant seriously the way it was said or just sylized to fit the - rather bad - writing of the post it was referring to. Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
re: Ad 1.: It is more credible, because compared to the "troll theory" it does not disregard 6 Episodes completly.

re: Ad 5.: 95% of Umineko consists of the thoughts of people, or shows the content of fictions. Escpacially the message bottles are in my opinion, "symbolic fictional stories within physical possibilities". We already discussed, that for no one in the whole story, a real motive to kill everyone else exists.
1.: I'm not sure why it would disregard 6 Episodes oO I might actually understand if you said 4, but okay. Anyhow, I wouldn't agree that it disregarded them. It might rather be "turned around" and the Eps about Yasu were not there to make a point for Shkanontrice but rather against it while still having the appearance of being a confirmation. As it's never outright stated that Yasu made up/became/whathever'd Shannon (oh well, what IS after all? ), Yasu might as well have another origin than believed (an illusion her/himself of another person, just for example).
Also, Ep 7 was surprisingly straightforward for Ryu's style, and he said so often he wouldn't just "reveal" the truth so it would be easy to see - but then Ep7 was kinda stating it, it could be seen even if you hadn't thought about Shkanon before. So that was merely a "hint" and a "puzzle"?
It's still screaming "fishy!" to me.

5.: Well, this doesn't address that "killing personalities", especially without a proper reason do to so in that particular situation is still stupid! I'm still wondering how Yasu even went about that. "Oh, you need to die now *plop*"? If it was at least triggered by something persona-related, whatever, e.g. rejection from Jessica, then I would at least see a connection...

Even if I accepted Shkanontrice, all the Eps make the impression of there being a 2nd culprit (killings after the epitaph was soved, killings that differed greatly from the ritual killings or closed room killings), so either way I'd have to think there was someone capable of and willing to kill many - of course that is just my take on the whole thing.

Concerning motives, I'd actually even think the exact other way : of the Ushiromiyas, almost everyone had SOME kind of motive implied for them, at least in the case of George it was even stated he'd be killing others, including his parents.

I also see the point with the message bottles to which I mostly agree (though I have to say I think it had little to do with my original issue here, but okay), though I can and do still believe that they ought to have a "basic common structure", also from a mystery point of view, or else, I do find them rather pointless.
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Old 2012-05-11, 10:58   Link #28749
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Well, okay, so we can't project anything of that to a "realistic" set of events there? It's all rather magical/meta then?
I don't think there is any way to escape from this conclusion. From EP5 onwards the gamemasters completely abandoned any effort to create narratively consistent stories.

Just think about the solution that Battler proposed at first, does that really make any sense to you? Natsuhi would take Battler's place and let him outside? Is that realistic? What exactly she planned to tell Erika then?

In the first place the fact that Battler prepared that "trap" with the shower suggests he knew Erika would come. How did he know that? That can be explained if he knew the room had been sealed. But how could he notice the seal from inside the room? This could work if someone outside told him, except we know that all the people that could tell him that were killed.

But let's even disregard that, how did Battler know that Erika wouldn't check the most obvious place one would hide in? And how did Battler know that Erika wouldn't reseal the room from inside rather than fixing the chain?

But more importantly: why Erika herself, as a character in the gameboard, would do that, if not for furthering the plans of her meta self?

There is no way to make sense out of all that without using meta-logic or sounding ridiculous.

When you consider all that, the shkanon gimmick isn't really that different.
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:10   Link #28750
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Thanks Jan-Poo, that explanation is appreciated. So basically, the meta is the important factor here and the gameboard made to fit that "at any cost" and regardlessly, is that it?

Besides:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Pretty much what Renall said.
(...)

Anyway discussing whether the solution of the final EP6 is shkanon or not is kinda moot at this point, because shkanon is widely accepted for a plethora of others unrelated reasons. And since shkanon is practically a certainty there's no need to find another explanation for that riddle.
I agree that that trick I outlined above would be weird and Erika should have been smart enough to see through that.

I'm not defending any other "theory" against Shkanon or whatnot, I personally just believe it's a stupid and disappointing way to wiggle out of the entire business and I also tend to believe (!) that Ryu might not be entirely honest in interviews and so on. He always made the impression to me to enjoy tricking his readers continously and leaving them dangling - if he had no problem with acknowledging Shannon's fake breasts in interviews and whatnot, why was he reluctant about being specific about that "truth" he always talked about and never said "that readers reached the truth of Shkanon / Yasu" blah?
But as always, this is subjective.

However, I guess as long as there's no red text from Ryukishi himself, I can go on merrily preferring other possible cat box solutions . ^_^
Well, I can also keep finding Shkanon blatantly stupid even if it was true, so.. >_>
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:46   Link #28751
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1.: I'm not sure why it would disregard 6 Episodes oO I might actually understand if you said 4, but okay. Anyhow, I wouldn't agree that it disregarded them. It might rather be "turned around" and the Eps about Yasu were not there to make a point for Shkanontrice but rather against it while still having the appearance of being a confirmation. As it's never outright stated that Yasu made up/became/whathever'd Shannon (oh well, what IS after all? ), Yasu might as well have another origin than believed (an illusion her/himself of another person, just for example).
If half of Umineko consisted of destroying a 'fanmade' theory, it would be very bad writing. For example the whole "love duel" would be just a mislead... no thanks. But you have a point with shkanontrice being weak. But in my opinion the "rosa-culprit-solution" is even worse. Shkanontrice at least was hinted at enough for people to find the solution by EP2.


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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
Also, Ep 7 was surprisingly straightforward for Ryu's style, and he said so often he wouldn't just "reveal" the truth so it would be easy to see - but then Ep7 was kinda stating it, it could be seen even if you hadn't thought about Shkanon before. So that was merely a "hint" and a "puzzle"?
It's still screaming "fishy!" to me.
EP7 only gave the answers for "whodunnit" straightforward. The "howdunnit" and escpacially the "whydunnit" were answered in riddles, or in some parts not even addressed at all. And that was only about the "games". Aside from that, even today we have not much information regarding R-Prime.

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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
5.: Well, this doesn't address that "killing personalities", especially without a proper reason do to so in that particular situation is still stupid! I'm still wondering how Yasu even went about that. "Oh, you need to die now *plop*"? If it was at least triggered by something persona-related, whatever, e.g. rejection from Jessica, then I would at least see a connection...
I think the message bottles are supposed to be a message to Battler. Virgilia called them a "love letter" to him. So I think the mysteries are just the clothes of the real message. But here again comes the problem of "not enough information". We don't know when those message bottles were written, when thrown into the sea (if at all), and we still don't know if there are 2, 3 or a completly different number of survivors of the Rokkenjima incident. But regarding the "killing personalities", we must understand the author of these stories. EP7 gave us some info about the antagonist of the stories, about "PieceYasu" but not about "PrimeYasu". We know close to nothing about the prime world. And that is why these "dying personalities", just as you said, seem ridiculous. We just cannot understand the author's (PrimeYasu's) reason to include such a thing. It also makes harder to figure it out because one would think "nah that can't be, it just sounds too ridiculous".

But still i would prefer the inworld solution to EP6's "Kanon does not exist in the guestroom" to be "a personality died, but the body still exists inside the room", instead of "meh he somehow died in the closet, i refuse to explain how"

But overall I do have to agree with you that "shkanontrice" overall was a lame plot device and there could have been other ways.


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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
Even if I accepted Shkanontrice, all the Eps make the impression of there being a 2nd culprit (killings after the epitaph was soved, killings that differed greatly from the ritual killings or closed room killings), so either way I'd have to think there was someone capable of and willing to kill many - of course that is just my take on the whole thing.
You have a point here. This shows again that we have not enough information regarding the real events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
Concerning motives, I'd actually even think the exact other way : of the Ushiromiyas, almost everyone had SOME kind of motive implied for them, at least in the case of George it was even stated he'd be killing others, including his parents.
Ok, but give me at least 1 good motive for anyone to kill Gohda, aside from "he knows too much, I must shut his mouth forever" or "He sometimes was unfriendly toward me".

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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
I also see the point with the message bottles to which I mostly agree (though I have to say I think it had little to do with my original issue here, but okay), though I can and do still believe that they ought to have a "basic common structure", also from a mystery point of view, or else, I do find them rather pointless.
As I said, they are probably supposed to be a message to Battler with the mysteries as their "clothes". But again: not enough information.


I sometimes have a hard time to state my point, so if you didn't understand something just ask me about it.
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:46   Link #28752
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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
I'm not defending any other "theory" against Shkanon or whatnot, I personally just believe it's a stupid and disappointing way to wiggle out of the entire business and I also tend to believe (!) that Ryu might not be entirely honest in interviews and so on. He always made the impression to me to enjoy tricking his readers continously and leaving them dangling - if he had no problem with acknowledging Shannon's fake breasts in interviews and whatnot, why was he reluctant about being specific about that "truth" he always talked about and never said "that readers reached the truth of Shkanon / Yasu" blah?
But as always, this is subjective.

However, I guess as long as there's no red text from Ryukishi himself, I can go on merrily preferring other possible cat box solutions . ^_^
Well, I can also keep finding Shkanon blatantly stupid even if it was true, so.. >_>

Don't worry you are not alone in thinking shkanon is blatantly stupid, just ask Renall!

I'm not that much judgemental about it, but I always thought it needed to have a very good explanation. There have been theories that more or less make it sound more plausible and acceptable, but to be honest I'm not 100% satisfied, and anyway I think that when you write something absolutely outrageous that's when you owe your readers an explanation, you can't just let them speculate on their own when the easier explanation "bad writing" is just around the corner.

But well, I started not to bother anymore about this particular issue.
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:48   Link #28753
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But for the location check to have any value whatsoever, Erika's retroactive room sealings (at least for the guesthouse) must occur at the time of the location check. Otherwise, as you said, the solution to the Logic Error is just "Kanon left the room before Erika finished sealing it," which is silly and something Erika should have thought about.
I'm kind of curious as to why you seem to accept "personality death" over this, though.

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Well, I can also keep finding Shkanon blatantly stupid even if it was true, so.. >_>
It's a lot easier to accept when you consider that "ShKanon is The Truth of the game board" just means that it's the truth of "Beatrice's heart", which I interpret to be the world view of Beatrice/Yasu.

ShKanon does constitute a ridiculous world view, but hey, some people have ridiculous world views.
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:51   Link #28754
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And Shannon going over to Battler in Kanon's clothes just for the heck of it, letting him out, switching personalities again because it's oh-so-fun and convenient and letting the other "die" because...well...she's in the mood for it, is better?
I believe he mentioned in an interview once it was a little unfair, as when dressed as the other they could still be themselves.

As for the seals, I seem to remember Erika making a comment about climbing around outside and Battler simply telling her they will work from whenever she wants, or did I make that up?

Finally, there was a reason for the personalities to die at that point, they were needed to to fulfill the epitaph. I always thought the resistance shown in some of the games was Kanon/Shannon personalities not just giving up and getting murdered, however they still lose anyway. Of course this requires meta-logic to be at play, but since our confession implies it was always in the story that is also fine. Furthermore, the whole point about them dying at specific times was addressed by Erika when trying to beat Beatrice's riddle at the wedding: there are multiple possible truths until confirmed. From a meta standpoint, a character could have died at any point that doesn't conflict with another red truth. This is why personalities can be killed at will at the perfect time, it was retroactive.
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:54   Link #28755
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Also, was the incident with rudolf and the knock just Rudolf getting Kyrie to play the record of the knock (they had never recorded their discussion before...) and then lying about where he thought the sound came from?
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:57   Link #28756
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Also, was the incident with rudolf and the knock just Rudolf getting Kyrie to play the record of the knock (they had never recorded their discussion before...) and then lying about where he thought the sound came from?
I think the most accepted explanation is that there hasn't been any knock to begin with.

Yeah this would fall under the second type of riddle I explained a few posts before: i.e. lame...
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Old 2012-05-11, 12:00   Link #28757
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edit: Took too long writing this message on a mobile and got ninja'd. 8) i was responding to Saorin.

I also think that Shkannontrice is a pretty weird thing for Ryukishi to use as his central mystery in Umineko, but I think he did trap us into a certain kind thinking with episode 7. I think what it did was try to portray Yasu as a normal person, like without going into the why of her personality making abilities. And perhaps the red text flashes at the end were hints that the story didn't go 100% as nicely as portrayed.

But anyways what this does is create two alternatives to why she does what she does. She's either just playing around with roles, like an actor or it's like she's insane. And if course neither answer is satisfactory.

I think that the story with Tooya's brain damage and subsequent personality change (i.e. Battler's death) was the very last clue to Yasu. I personally believe Yasu suffered some kind of brain trauma as well to make her like this. However she actually came like this is not that important for understanding Umineko though.

I think what's important is to know that she isn't lying, pretending or faking. If you try to believe instead that she somehow had no choice but to act this way, and say the things she did, then a while new interpretation opens up. The straight interpretation.

I outline my theory in the my first signature link, with quotes from episode 1 and 2, where it seems the answer was laid out in its entirety for us.
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Old 2012-05-11, 12:02   Link #28758
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
As for my thought on Chiru Battler's differences with his Original, I was under the impression that he was always capable of having such intelligence but it was never utilized because of the fact that he was incompetent.
Well, Battler's incompetence in EP 1 is weird in a fashion. He says all that had happened should be a trick and, if they were to look into mystery books they would find it, however we'll later find out he's a avid mystery reader but he can't offer a single decent solution. So either he forgot the mystery books he had read or searching through mystery books wouldn't help us to get the solution to the tricks or he has no other choice but being incompetent.

(and I really wonder who provided the clue about Kinzo's hometown. In Ep 1 they are thinking to the wrong location while in EP 5 there's no such problem and in EP 7 is even said the siblings all know to which city the epitaph referred... so maybe people was supposed to have troubles figuring it out due to the storyline purpose?)

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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
-Beatrice announces herself as Kinzo's illegitimate child and heir to the family fortune, who disquised herself as a servant to Ushiromiya family. Naturally the adults were suspicious but Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa assured them that it was the truth and told them of Kinzo's affairs with the other two Beatrices.
I don't know if she announced herself as Kinzo's child but I'll say in Prime she should have announced herself as the gold owner at least... and that people might have realized/been told by Genji & Co who she was...

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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
-Despite the initial stir, the family decides to host a halloween party to inaugurate Beatrice as an addition to the family. Beatrice decides to make murder mystery game out of it and everyone fakes their death with Battler, George, and Jessica as the detectives and herself as the culprit (and Maria as her accomplice).
Hum... I'm not sure if things could have gone so smoothly. I mean, it would be natural for the Ushiromiya to be wary of a maid who out of the blue says she's Kinzo's heir. Even Genji & Co's support to her declaration might have been viewed as them being bribed into confirming her story.

Even though the Ushiromiya might have been nicer then what one can assume they still were a wealthy family and Shannon might have been viewed as someone who was trying to trick them for money.

Honestly I've various theories about how things could have gone but none of them is 'perfect'. I guess there are still too many missing pieces.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
We're all sure a mystery game happened. I seriously wonder why.
Well, if they were celebrating halloween it could have been a nice halloween activity. Also it could have give Shannon a chance to 'bond' with Battler or check if he was still the same boy she remembered.

It's sort of saying: me and my childhood crush used to play cards together as a kids so now that we meet again after 6 years let's play cards again.

In a fashion that's kind of depressing because it drives home that after 6 years all we might have in common are memories and the same love for card games... though at the same time, working with what we know we still have in common we can find other things we've in common and rebuild our relation... or we can realize we're really grown too far apart so well, it was nice to see each other again (or maybe it wasn't even that) but well, it's not an experience we'll look forward to repeat.

So I think Shannon was searching a way to see if she could connect with Battler again as she did when they were kids... through for the others the game was likely merely a way to amuse themselves.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
As far as we know they could all have just been asleep when the bomb went off.
Theres really little known about the bomb. For all we know it could even be that the storm caused something to shortcircuit and the bomb exploded while Eva was in Kuwadorian for random reasons.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
This ignores more or less everything that was said in EP7. I think with Yasu's emotional state, that it's probable that s/he may have prepared for the bomb to go off as Claire confessed. Even though almost everything is fictional, and EP8 everyone seems out of character... having Beato/Yasu use the epitaph "for fun" is really out of her character. I don't believe that the murder game was just Yasu wanting fun for a night.
Well, people do crazy things for 'fun' though I think the key point is she was feeling in a bad situation and wanted a way out. It's as if she thought: 'now everything is going bad but it would be nice if things could change and I could return having fun with Battler'. I don't really think she went as overboard as to blackmail people to take part to her game or using the bomb as there were better ways to handle things but yes, she could have looked at the game as if it was her chance to find back her happiness.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
I'm also unsure about the time Yasu's bottles were written. I still believe that they contain almost exactly what we see as the Episodes (I know this is a discussion of its own), and if I believe that I would conclude that the bottles were written afterwards. How can this tie into an accident theory I wonder...
There's something interesting Battler says in Ep 5.

Quote:
A crime carried out without any particular intention just happens to look similar to the epitaph, and the witnesses mistakenly think it's a plotline murder. Humans try to find cause and effect in everything they see. ......If we think we know what something is, then that's how it looks to us.
If Yasu tossed the bottles in the sea without any particular intent and then the Rokkenjima tragedy happened we would see a connection through the facts.
If the Rokkenjima tragedy hadn't happened people who were to find the bottles might have wondered about them, maybe someone could have even reported them to the police or the Ushiromiya in fear someone WAS planning a murder but the things would end here.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Maybe despite Yasu's existence as Shkanontrice, his/her bottles were just a way to deal with the pain, similar to Tohya's reasons for the forgeries. The bottles weren't Yasu's "plans" at all, but a way for Beatrice to get her message out to somebody. It can tie in with the Ikuko = Yasu theory which I'm not a fan of though but whatever...
Yes, it's a possibility.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I'm beginning to think that the fake murders were as much for messing with Erika (like in EP6) as they were for messing with Natsuhi. The conspirators may not all have had the same agenda. An example scenario would be: there are people (say Jessica, Battler, Krauss etc.) participating for the sake of screwing with Erika; then there are people (say Eva, Rudolf, Kyrie etc.) who play along with the anti-Erika game, but actually intend to somehow use the game to corner Natsuhi; meanwhile someone (say Yasu) is secretly real-killing the people who were hiding somewhere for the sake of the murder ruse.

Something like that.
Yes, I've the same feeling as well. Note that Jessica had been offended by Erika's words previously so she might have been trying to get back at her (as they do in EP 6) and George and Maria might have played along. The adults however could have been using the murder game to get back at Natsuhi while yasu supported it for her own agenda...

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-05-11 at 15:26.
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Old 2012-05-11, 12:07   Link #28759
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Also Also, what was the major significance to Jessica's asthma usually being faked to get out of awkward situations, I can see sometimes she used it to stop fighting/accusations directed at Natsuhi, but there must be more to it...
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Old 2012-05-11, 13:29   Link #28760
Renall
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I'm kind of curious as to why you seem to accept "personality death" over this, though.
What are you talking about? I think personality death is ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, Battler's incompetence in EP 1 is weird in a fashion. He says all that had happened should be a trick and, if they were to look into mystery books they would find it, however we'll later find out he's a avid mystery reader but he can't offer a single decent solution. So either he forgot the mystery books he had read or searching through mystery books wouldn't help us to get the solution to the tricks or he has no other choice but being incompetent.
Alternative Solution: The author of the message bottles is not familiar with mysteries, but is familiar with Battler's familiarity with them. In other words, he or she would know that Battler would probably be able to pick the puzzles out of books he'd read... but didn't actually know what any of them are, because the author had never read any themselves.

This is counter to what we're told about Yasu, of course, but it's one way that Battler's stupidity could be explained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Also Also, what was the major significance to Jessica's asthma usually being faked to get out of awkward situations, I can see sometimes she used it to stop fighting/accusations directed at Natsuhi, but there must be more to it...
Dropped plot thread. I don't recall it coming up in any meaningful way after a while. It certainly never mattered for any of the mysteries as far as we've seen. Red herring?
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway discussing whether the solution of the final EP6 is shkanon or not is kinda moot at this point, because shkanon is widely accepted for a plethora of others unrelated reasons. And since shkanon is practically a certainty there's no need to find another explanation for that riddle.
But it's so much fun.

The fact that my joke solution doesn't even address Shkanon is my favorite part, because I actually wasn't thinking about it in any way when trying to be as funny as possible. In fact, the Shkanon equivalency would be a red which could instantly destroy the Battler Joke Solution. Kind of funny, that.
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