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Old 2012-05-13, 03:52   Link #28801
Vnonymous
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My biggest objection to the Genius battler theory is that it directly contradicts the narration -
Quote:
"Yeah, it's true. I had been planning to make Battler actually alive, and then to have him slip out of the guest room, resulting in his disappearance and in the placement of the letter. However, if I revise the scenario now that my move's been spotted, it'll be the same as admitting that it was spotted. Even if I have to be stubborn about it, I don't want to admit that I was seen through here. I don't want to acknowledge a pathetic plot change where I try to sneak out of the guest room and break the seals. I want......to change over to a different trick, so that the letter will be placed and my corpse will be hidden... while still preserving the seals on the guest room..."
Ryukishi bends the truth a lot, but he never outright lies to you in Umineko, and for good reason(it'd completely destroy the entire "game"). Battler is surprised by Erika going for the logic error because he thought that she was just trying to play the game, and even Featherine talks about how Battler's forced revision is a problem - which means that she would be lying about it as well. Lambdadelta, who is impartial in her judgements acknowledges that Battler's original plan was the one Erika saw through. This means not only that Battler fooled Lambda and Bern(which I can believe), but that he fooled Featherine and Ange, who he doesn't even know exist and can read his mind!

Secondly, Battler's pre-murder-reveal solution isn't incredibly mundane - he hides in the closet, Erika goes and checks the bathroom because it sounds like something is happening in there, and while she's distracted Battler leaves. That's a perfectly valid trick considering Erika isn't the detective anymore, and it'd fit just fine in games 1-4 - the Battler from episodes 1-4 would have been completely flummoxed. He's forced to keep changing and changing his trick because he continually underestimated Erika(both her intelligence and her willingness to "go the extra mile", so to speak).

And the answer to "why three rooms" is the one that Erika points out - he stops short of giving her enough tape to prevent all of the corpses from the first twilight pulling a disappearing act. As for the retroactive killing, Battler was entirely aware that Erika had inspected the corpses. He was just stunned when he discovered that her inspection involved a murder. Also, he wasn't surprised about Erika going for a logic error at all - his exact reaction is "...........I know. ......So, you're after a logic error." which doesn't sound all that surprising to me.

Last edited by Vnonymous; 2012-05-13 at 03:53. Reason: Extraneous punctuation.
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Old 2012-05-13, 03:58   Link #28802
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Ryukishi bends the truth a lot, but he never outright lies to you in Umineko
That is the most untrue statement I have ever heard.
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Old 2012-05-13, 04:01   Link #28803
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Quote:
Ryukishi bends the truth a lot, but he never outright lies to you in Umineko,
This is the most untrue statement I have ever heard.

Quote:
This means not only that Battler fooled Lambda and Bern(which I can believe), but that he fooled Featherine and Ange, who he doesn't even know exist and can read his mind!
By no means does anything insinuate that Featherine is herself being fooled. She could be in on it, but wants to watch Ange think.

Also, Featherine doesn't know the truth, so BATTLER COULD trick her.

Quote:
Secondly, Battler's pre-murder-reveal solution isn't incredibly mundane - he hides in the closet, Erika goes and checks the bathroom because it sounds like something is happening in there, and while she's distracted Battler leaves.
...What do you think the word 'mundane' means?
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Old 2012-05-13, 04:43   Link #28804
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...What do you think the word 'mundane' means?
Though with Erika set to pull erd specifics until she had the situation down, what would you have done to preserve the mystery?
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Old 2012-05-13, 05:14   Link #28805
Vnonymous
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
This is the most untrue statement I have ever heard.
Where exactly does Ryukishi lie to the reader? The fantasy version of events isn't a "lie" - that is the game that Beatrice/Lambda/Battler/Bern is presenting, and is technically the truth(until a competing theory comes along). Individual characters lie all the time, but those lies are eventually revealed. While Umineko doesn't follow Van Dine's commandments particularly well,
Quote:
No willful tricks or deceptions may be played on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
is one that is most definitely in effect.

And that's the fundamental problem with the Genius Battler theory - it destroys the game in the manner that Knox's decalogue is meant to prevent. When you cannot trust the internal narration of the main character, you cannot trust anything else! Saying that Battler's monologues during those scenes are just lies means that I can just say that all of Episode 6 was a lie, and that Episode 6 was actually the story of Purupurupiko-man going to Rokkenjima for a holiday. I'd be perfectly willing to accept the genius battler theory if we were never explicitly told in the text that it was wrong - but we are.

As for mundanity, a corpse disappearing from a sealed room isn't actually boring or dull - just easily seen through by Erika.
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Old 2012-05-13, 05:18   Link #28806
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Just easily seen through by Erika.
Yeah, she had access to something Battler never really did; not just the blues, but also the knowledge of how to use them and how the game was played. She would be as powerful as one of us could be now, with our knowledge of the answer. We would just have to sit there nutting out each fact until we knew what happened perfectly.
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Old 2012-05-13, 06:01   Link #28807
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On an unrelated topic, does anyone have access to those screens that flashed by in red in game 8 I think? 7? The ones were Yasu is not as happy as the game implies.
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Old 2012-05-13, 06:36   Link #28808
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Doesn't Genius Battler explain all this? You are familiar with the idea, right?
That was exactly my point. If Genius Battler "would" be wrong, you got the plothole points that i mentioned up there. I already stated that i belive in Genius Battler myself.


Also a hint from EP8:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EP8
"Of course, I've been losing all this time just to make you think that!`@` Ushiromiya Battler, the man who loses strategically to win in the end! Ihihi!"`\
This was not about EP6 of course, but it would fit perfectly.
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Old 2012-05-13, 07:03   Link #28809
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Quote:
On an unrelated topic, does anyone have access to those screens that flashed by in red in game 8 I think? 7? The ones were Yasu is not as happy as the game implies.
Here they are.

Anyway, I don't believe in Genius Battler myself. I can't see Battler as being that manipulative and intelligent to be able to pull it off. Plus it takes all the excitement out of EP6's narrative.

Quote:
Please give me a valid reason (while adressing the 2 points above), why Battler still insisted in this room, after he got to know that 1 portion of the seals was used to seal it up.
Battler already told Beatrice why he insisted on doing that. It still wasn't a good move, but you can see his thought process. The game tells it to you.

Also, after Erika challenged Battler, it didn't matter how 'mundane' the solution was; he just had to prove that it was solvable and that he hadn't messed up. Erika had already forfeited the opportunity to solve it herself by making the accusation that it was unsolvable, so it didn't matter how easy it would have been for her to figure it out if she'd continued.
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Old 2012-05-13, 07:21   Link #28810
GreyZone
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Again... it's either Incompetent Battler or Genius Battler. There are no middle ways ("creativity error"? Seriously?). But if Battler is really just dumb, then the end of EP5 was meaningless. The build up of EP6 about how "The witches game made Battler smarter" would be disregarded, because the logic error scene did make Battler look as if he is more stupid than he was in EP1-4.
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Old 2012-05-13, 07:50   Link #28811
goldendust
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Again... it's either Incompetent Battler or Genius Battler. There are no middle ways ("creativity error"? Seriously?). But if Battler is really just dumb, then the end of EP5 was meaningless. The build up of EP6 about how "The witches game made Battler smarter" would be disregarded, because the logic error scene did make Battler look as if he is more stupid than he was in EP1-4.
Not more stupid but more cocky than in EP1-4. He underestimated Erika and paid the price for it. You act like smart people are not prone to arrogance or underestimation. More so that Battler crushed Erika the last time they fought and now is the game master. That is all there is to it.

Also I do think that trick might have been pulled off better if it was for the retroactive changes. As well that Battler might have had better tricks later on.
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Old 2012-05-13, 07:56   Link #28812
Saorin
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
If we take it as a reference, you might also consider that

a) she can't switch personalities at will, as it seems
b) she doesn't carry over memories from one persona to the other
c) she can't "erase" them deliberately
d) she doesn't have two personalities at the same time "active" so they can have conversations xD but we can always argue against this in Umineko with meta/all being a written fiction/whatever

And I sure as hell hope she doesn't plan on doing some crazy murder (game) oO
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Old 2012-05-13, 07:59   Link #28813
CrimsonMoonMist
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The problem I find with people completely disregarding the logic-error as Battler's plan
is that it would render Battler's talk about not telling chick-Beato
so he could hold onto a miracle entirely without a resolution or a point in general.
So he just didn't tell and thought a miracle would happen to make her remember?
That's not how miracles in Umineko work.
How he got to that point, that he planned everything to a tee I have a real hard time believing,
but the end result he worked towards was still the same.
That's my two cents.
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Old 2012-05-13, 08:04   Link #28814
Saorin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

..What do you think the word 'mundane' means?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What do you think the Endless Magic is?

I'm kinda bored with your "rhetorical" questions, so I'd prefer not to reply to questions that are apparently aimed at making the other person look "wrong". =D
You're welcome to state what you have to retort if that's what you want or you leave it be.

Also, I never got a decent explanation as to why Will, who obviously KNEW the answer and the truth behind it all, was honestly flabbergasted and didn't know what was going on when Shannon pulled off the BSOD and refused to get Kanon... And how that was likened to a checkmate...?
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Last edited by Saorin; 2012-05-13 at 10:49.
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Old 2012-05-13, 08:06   Link #28815
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Not more stupid but more cocky than in EP1-4. He underestimated Erika and paid the price for it. You act like smart people are not prone to arrogance or underestimation. More so that Battler crushed Erika the last time they fought and now is the game master. That is all there is to it.

Also I do think that trick might have been pulled off better if it was for the retroactive changes. As well that Battler might have had better tricks later on.
OK, I stop going on, as this is another fork, like with Ikuko. I gave my reasons why I believe what I believe in, you give your reasons why you believe what you believe in and let's all believe in what we want to believe in.


But.... well maybe I go on after all xD

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Battler already told Beatrice why he insisted on doing that. It still wasn't a good move, but you can see his thought process. The game tells it to you.
You mean like the game also told us that "Battler could have said the names of the people in the cousins' room in red"? Or Battler's thought process in EP5 where he was directed to the gold by kinzo? Yes, in chiru Battler always shared his real thoughts with us....... NOT.
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Old 2012-05-13, 08:32   Link #28816
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnonymous View Post
Quote:
No willful tricks or deceptions may be played on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
And that's the fundamental problem with the Genius Battler theory - it destroys the game in the manner that Knox's decalogue is meant to prevent. When you cannot trust the internal narration of the main character, you cannot trust anything else!
This is only meant to apply to the detective main character. Battler is an author main character in the narration you quoted. Although Battler's thoughts here are kind of mysterious it's unfortunately not part of the mystery.

I mean c'mon. If we applied mystery rules to everything in the meta world things would get pretty stupid
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Old 2012-05-13, 09:39   Link #28817
LyricalAura
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I see EP6 as being very similar to EP3 on a meta level. Banquet is a game where the game master invited Eva-Beatrice onto the board, pretended to actually be in danger from her, and exploited her as a prop in a performance for her real opponent's benefit before killing her off. This is pretty much exactly what I think Battler did for EP6, with Erika being the invited enemy and Beatrice being the real opponent. Isn't Beatrice the one who does most of the actual investigation?

Regarding falsehoods in the meta narration, I think it's very easy to forget that the meta events of this game are not being Read by someone who knows the truth of the story. Ange can make mistakes and misinterpret things in the text she's looking at.
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Old 2012-05-13, 10:06   Link #28818
Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I already stated that i belive in Genius Battler myself.
My mistake. Apologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnonymous View Post
And that's the fundamental problem with the Genius Battler theory - it destroys the game in the manner that Knox's decalogue is meant to prevent. When you cannot trust the internal narration of the main character, you cannot trust anything else! Saying that Battler's monologues during those scenes are just lies means that I can just say that all of Episode 6 was a lie, and that Episode 6 was actually the story of Purupurupiko-man going to Rokkenjima for a holiday. I'd be perfectly willing to accept the genius battler theory if we were never explicitly told in the text that it was wrong - but we are.
As pointed out by LyricalAura, Battler is not the true narrator in EP6; Ange is. More on this below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Anyway, I don't believe in Genius Battler myself. I can't see Battler as being that manipulative and intelligent to be able to pull it off. Plus it takes all the excitement out of EP6's narrative.
Bingo.

Discussion before Ange and Featherine start reading Dawn:

Featherine:
"In the past, I observed the Fragments through Battler's eyes. ......However, now that he has succeeded the position of Game Master, he is not a suitable observer. I am following this tale with true and earnest intentions. It would be such a waste to observe it through the eyes of Battler as he is now, like reading a detective novel backwards..."

Ange:
".........So. ...you want me to read your new picture book aloud to you...?"


So yes, it does take the excitement out and that's precisely why we don't get to see Battler's true thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
Also, I never got a decent explanation as to why Will, who obviously KNEW the answer and the truth behind it all, was honestly flabbergasted and didn't know what was going on when Shannon pulled off the BSOD and refused to get Kanon... And how that was likened to a checkmate...?
I'm not convinced he "obviously knew" by that point.
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Old 2012-05-13, 14:05   Link #28819
goldendust
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Maybe not the right thread but this question did cross my mind at times, and I wonder what other people think. Who is the most intelligent character in Umineko? Beatrice? Erika? Will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
OK, I stop going on, as this is another fork, like with Ikuko. I gave my reasons why I believe what I believe in, you give your reasons why you believe what you believe in and let's all believe in what we want to believe in.
Fair enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
Also, I never got a decent explanation as to why Will, who obviously KNEW the answer and the truth behind it all, was honestly flabbergasted and didn't know what was going on when Shannon pulled off the BSOD and refused to get Kanon... And how that was likened to a checkmate...?
Really? How do you think that Will knew everything by then?
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Old 2012-05-13, 14:14   Link #28820
GreyZone
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I guess after his talk with BSoD-Shanon, Will understood about ShKanon, but not about Lion yet.

But didn't he claim, he solved EP1-4 at the beginning? How did he not know about ShKanon then? Or was the talk with Shanon an act?
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