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Old 2012-05-16, 04:45   Link #28881
AuraTwilight
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I didn't think his reliability was really in question in games 1-4. Except when he got smashed that is.
Generally, his reliability SEEMS to fall to shit after the Twilights are completed. I would presume because it's game over. This also happens in the first episode, when Battler starts to shoot at Gold Butterflies.
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Old 2012-05-16, 04:57   Link #28882
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I thought that happened after the clock struck boom, that is when it happened in Game 4.

On the other hand, Genji does come to Battler in 2 and tell him that since TL8 is over, Beatrice can tell him all once he enters the study. So I guess it was a sort of game over.
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Old 2012-05-16, 06:31   Link #28883
Kealym
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
But as for a deliberate murder of all those people, I have a lot of trouble thinking of anything sufficient for either Battler of George. Does anyone else have an idea for that one?
The inherent problem of Prime is that we have to account for :
1. Eva surviving alone, which almost definitely implied that Georgeyoshi was dead.
2. Eva surviving in the Kuwadorian, with Kinzo's ring apparently
3. Fake-Murder-Mystery paranoia aside, there's no easily understood reason to kill EVERYBODY, for any one suspect, who would at least be concerned with their own immediate family. Basically, you run into the problem of why any given person would kill the likes of Jessica, Maria, and Godha, who haven't really done anything to anyone at any point.

Also, the thing about Eva shooting Battler in EP3 ... much as I don't take interviews as the absolutely final word on the matter, Ryukishi did say something like "Yeah, Battler was the witness, so you can be certain that that happened." Though, Eva SHOULD know Battler wasn't the one to kill Nanjo. Hell, assuming Eva killed Rosaria and Kratsuhi, I dunno what she honestly suspects him of, except MAYBE collusion in the First Twilight. That she may or may not even think is real. O_o
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Old 2012-05-16, 06:35   Link #28884
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just some thoughts

Beatrice in the games is really his unconsciousness of guilt that represents his sister. Beatrice is the embodiemnent of all the guilt of battler choosing to not come home to Ange. REmember that wierd question at the end of 4 about battler not being asumu's son??? doesnt that make alot more sense if someone was trying to rationalize that fine you dont realize its me dumbass and im so glad you really arent related to me and are my brother or half brother??? Remebemer what Ange said to battler at the end of 3??? She said remember its not blood that connects you, its your bonds between people that matter. she wasnt allowed to say who she was at the time. I think the end of arc 4 makes more sense now, WHy is battler incompetent????? if i havent seen battler or seen my brother in like 15 years how am i supoossed to prtray him. 1-4 is ange trying to portray battler in the stories, that why he is so different in 5-8. In 5-8 its suddenly actually the person who wrote the stories and his character great or its battler alive portraying himself in the games. trhat explains the genuis battler stuff and logic error stuff. I also never saw battler and beato in a romantic way like most you guys. I always thought of it diofrferently but only now saying it seemed like a brother-sister thing, i mean the aruments and cute stuff they did at the end. The evil witch want me to come home (ange) "Beatrice" in 1-4' in 5-8 beato was an idea that he wanted to bring back but didnt know why. How about this>>>>>????? Battler now uses a culprit like erika to make it seem like a real bitch i strying to get me home, the whole marrying thing but they couldnt get married remember? The logic error??? I believe its because she had feelings for battller but the game knew those feelings although valid as a piece liking another piece, knew that really and in RED she is his sister so those feelings cannnnot be validated. Why was she a detective, cause now 12 years has gone by and she has been investgating the incident. 1-4 is ange reading marias diary and speculating why her familiy didnt come back. 5-8 is showing battler knowing erika is investating him and showing in the game a more realistid villian one who continues to kill the members of the cast continually but its not her fault because she is in the future so everytime she remembers the incident thats another killing thats happening every time she remebers it. IM a wicked witch a horrible witch that what beatrice says as she falls down into the depths of the ocean and drowns. The countless times ange has imagined the incident is why she believes she is evil. WHY does Battler change his view from wanting to kill beatrice because she keeps killing his familiy over and over his guit for not coming home. WHY does he suddenly forgive her? How can someone you hate and has done so much terrible things to your family how can u forgive them? And that fast? Instantly?? He is told THAT CHILD is INNOCENT and the gold is hers. Thats because now everyone is dead and the gold belongs to ange. 5-8 ange has the money and everyone is dead thats why they can play in whatever crazy ways . BATTLER forgives BEATRICE because he realizes it was just HIS SISTER TRYING TO CONVINCE HIM TO COME HOME. the YASU thing that might be ikuto is a way for r07 to take the story in a meta way one way, but understnding the shannon /kanon trhing wasnt about figuring out thats who beatrice is. IT was REALIZING ANGE NEEDED HER BROTHER just like shannon needed kanon to get back and surive, they refered to each other as syblings many times, SO IF THE MURDERS ARE OCCURING AND THE ANSWER IS SHHANONKANON.... that doesnt mean there was a yasu it just means whoever represented beatrice was trying to explain a SYBLING like SYNERGY. THEY felt like furniture........ and all that. The whole yasu thing is a deception. The shannon/kanon thing which tells u kanon is imaginary is explaining basically the whole the that is occuring. A girl who has been abandonded by fate, and no matter how she tries to use the magic she learns she cant bring her brother back but he definately becomes her fantasy person in a way she countless times imagines him going through each scenario, hoping he can figure out what she is trying to say. YASU is a whole deception remeber when ANGE mentions her name and SMIRKS AND SAYS HER NAME is GRETEL. Well gretel is about two syblings that are brother and sister that figure out a way to have a witch destroy herself. THIS whole umineko is ANGE probably writing the first bottles and portraying these people how she could proably as a wish, why not lets throw a bottle in the sea and sea if my miracle can come true. Remebr bern came to see ange, only happens when some wants a miracle not certainty. SO we read these tales of anges imagining these 4 stories and 5-8 is battler's perspective on the stories whether he is dead or not. The end is Ange experiencing what we read in 1-4 and he involvement in 6 so sh started getting wrriten in. I read a theory that ange was the culprit in a physical way like she was on the islane, the whole battler was one day late was because he ended up brining ange along but didnt tell the others. and things happened as they did. So many people say well erika cant be the murderer in 6 because she wasnt in the first 1-4, well she can represent somone which i think people are confusing, these people are multiple personalities, these are just pieces that represent something to someone. In the end Lambdadelta teased Bern with a new game , she nibbed took the bait, and the person who wished upon the cat goddess on top of that tower thinking of jumping off, Ange became the focus, and bern creatted a game series that made everyone believe there was thing transusal person with their organs all messed up unable to love etc this yasu person was the person who wrote this sttuff and actually was one of the participants in theose stories behind the scenes. BUT in truth there is no yasu BERN worked her magic to troll u all to hell and back and at the end of ep 8 you were all like who murdered who and actually did any of this happen or was it just a story or in someones mind? TO be HONest this is my honest thought of this umineko series, PICTURE Miyo Takano in a padded cell mumbling to herself is this reality? AM i still in hell???? ANd lambdadelta realizes Bern never showed up and this endless elegant tale was the imagingings IN Takano's mind. Maybe bern paid her a vist and told her a story like at the end of higurashi rei when she asks little takano miyo if she wants to live or die? She prevents takano fromgoing on the train with her parenrs preventing takano's furture and preventing all of higurashi to never occur. BUt by reseting everything better, she still allowed takano to live. IT was necessry to let her live to prevent to prevent the disaster, but if she killed her then it was not necessary she go on the train and would prevent the disater as well. Bern chose to let her live, and after the torture Miyo caused Rika to let her go was behind mercy. She knew that no matter how much suffering she had gone through, it was worth keeping that girl alive as perhaps she would be able to alliveate her boredom at some point. Risking even meeting takano's future self and still letting her go, shows this that the suffering she experienced from her at some point she might prefer over the endless boredom of the exist, only TRUE WITCHES would prefer letting horrible suffering occur to them as a preventaitive measure to boredom. ITs the poision that kills alll witches, to prefer pain and sorrow and death over boredom proved to the universe this girl should be granted the powers of a traveler and grant her the title of witch. Bern and her adventures,
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Old 2012-05-16, 06:48   Link #28885
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in fact r07 said the truth is u deciding whether its from beatrice's or anges perspective. With present truiths overwriting the past, the whole ange thing with maar's magic was to show that even though this whole incident occured and battler siined against his sister, Ange choose to embrace the white magic that maria started and wrote the sakturo books and changed her name...... Who is fighting battler? beatrice a person that says shes a witch? or a Teenage girl missing her brother so much that she can only believe that battler foughr his best against the witch or else he would have come home right? This is ange's story showing how all the little things we learned throughtout the tale Ange in the end learned the Truth she chose, Maris wicth of origins, so she continiued something that came from zero. Beatrice says that to maria you are what kinzo desired most. Maria creates a magic unlike the types of coping mechanisms people in the story have, this makes it special, and Ange in the ENd regects the TRUTH to follow her own truth and says she;; beccome a witch and determine her own future. In essence it means when you use white magic you can pick and choose what parts of reality to concentrate on, Which to ignore and which to embellish and create a magic world of your own. I think when ange got that diary, and had read the contents of the tales in the bottles that were found, what we really are seeing perhaps are what Ange is seeing as she reads the story,. all these stories could be ange's way of rationalizing what could have happened. And then what we see in ange's perspectives are her possibilities. Yeah, arc 1-4 could just be ange's perspective and the witch is a made up person but it really ange saying battler come home damnit u idiot! then erika a 14 year old who investiagtes the stuff? Then in 8 ange asks and interviews everyones riddles. I think then 5-8 are when she met Ikuto and she basically got written into the story as erika, the witch of truth. If u say what is the truth? Does that mean the final truth? That would mean what is happening at the moment in ange's world. If you can see what is happening there thats the truth, what would ange be like and what perspective would she adapt to by imagining countless versions of the incident in her head,. Remeber beatrice is a witch, because she is put there as the one trying to get battler the way home but in a wacking way, eva-beatrice is named that because then we are shown they she believed she had a witch inside her when she was young but was bascially just her desires as a teenager, so when we are told ange, is ange-beatrice that means we must adapt to her perspective now. I believe whenever someone gets that title, the truth is there with that person. NOw ange-beatrice is because she is now the truth, because there is no more incident, there are no surviors in some theories, the truth is ange is alone. WHat is her perspective? She at the end claims to fully embrace being a wicth. she now will choose her destiny but it also means as long as she has that title the truth is now with her. FOllow the beatrice and whoever has it that part of the story is particuly important. BUt in the end i truly believe battler's sin was againstr ange by simply NOT coming home. Whether that yasu=itkuto is correct doesnt really matter, it still means battler chooses something on than her reality. SO to wrap up beatrice dies at the end of 4 because she realizes battler doesnt get it and wont be coming homme. 5-8 is just all about the author r07 trying to get more meaning in the story my telling a few more episodes with more meta.
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Old 2012-05-16, 07:11   Link #28886
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Like you guys were saying if we just get to rokkenjima prime we almost have nothing to go on, its a damn catbox allowing us endless speculations.

just remeber once ange truly learns HER OWN TRUTH and how to use the white magic she then begins her journey, as a witch.... and then went on to spread the word through her books almost making Maria a true martyr. She goes on to believe in what she believed caused her to OVERCOME the REAL TRUTH which she decided not to acknowledge. Whatever truth it was, it was something so powerfeul to overcome all of the horror and hardships she has been through.

Thats why I believe no matter who sent the bottles out, THey named it Maria Ushimiya....... they wanted to make sure her name was forever linked with the legend it created.

Whether nothing happened on that island or just an explosion, no matter what occurced we have no way of confirming almost anything.

Thats why how just a bottle with a young girls name on it, but maybe her hopes and dreams inside create a reality where a legend is so true and real its almost tangible. IN rokkenjima Prime Beatice is a witch that visted in OCT 86 and a murder mystery occured. Allgedgely !

BUt by writing that bottle it sealed the fate of everyone in the familiy even ange , and MARIA is know known throughout the land to be connected with the White magic and her friends. which i think was the whole purpose of the bottle, to create MAGIC .
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Old 2012-05-16, 07:18   Link #28887
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Wow, wall of text much? Ever heard of paragraphs?

Anyway, on Battler's reliability in EP1-4, I think there are only two circumstances in which he was ever unreliable:
- After midnight, when he is in fact dead.
- At the end of EP2, where he has given up and accepting Beatrice/"stopped thinking", so the witch's illusion becomes the unrefuted truth.
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Old 2012-05-16, 07:34   Link #28888
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That was what I thought as well
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Old 2012-05-16, 08:29   Link #28889
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Neither Battler nor George has any discernible motive, so it would ultimately be a Later Queen kind of thing if they were shown to have had one. There's honestly nothing I can find that would permit any one person to kill every other person, so the notion of a single-culprit mass murder seems by far the least plausible outcome.

But it is a valid question: What was Eva doing on the other side of the island? We know she was at least 1km away from the mansion area because she escaped the blast. Why? And Battler, what was their reason for being there?

Okay, so if there had been murders maybe they were escaping. Assume for a moment that there was not a series of murders. What would've driven somebody to go through those tunnels (or even go overland) to a place they may not have even known existed? Simple curiosity? Were they pursuing someone? Why Battler and/or Eva? What about everybody else they knew?

I suppose it would be kind of interesting if Battler and Eva had together solved the epitaph on the 5th and by sheer coincidence, either an accident or switch-triggering blew everybody else up while they were exploring the underground. But that wouldn't really explain how Eva would lose track of Battler or why she wouldn't tell Ange that he'd survived. Or why she wouldn't look for him.
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Old 2012-05-16, 09:26   Link #28890
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The only 2 people that were shown to have solved the epitaph and also were given the "ring of the head", were Battler (+ Erika who probably never reached Rokkenjima), Eva and "Beatrice", but lets put her aside for now.

So we have Eva and Battler. Both solved the epitaph in one Episode and both were able to survive (at least physically) the incident.

So my theory is as following: Eva solved the epitaph first, got the head ring from "Beatrice" and started searching the tunnels for a way to transport the gold out from the tunnel (possibly because of greed, but she had no intent of killing anyone for it). Later Battler also solved the epitaph and... "to be continued".

Maybe Eva got shocked to see him and shoot/CQCed Battler, which caused his "brain injury" later? Well I don't try to make a forgery here, but instead try to create scenarios that seem plausible. But with all this I still don't see why someone would turn the bomb switch (if it even really exists like that)
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Old 2012-05-16, 09:39   Link #28891
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That super long message did raise some interesting theories and points. Why DOES Ryu consider this to be a game where you ultimately choose Beatrice's story or Ange's? Ange doesn't really have a perspective set in stone (unless you count her as trick and Beato as magic)

Furthermore, what did Beato pass to Eva, and how did Eva pass it to Ange. You could say they hold the truth to the incident, but why did Ange get that when Eva died? You could also say it is them that weaves the tale of those two nights, but then why is it stated Ange will be the final Beatrice? And why did Eva have to die to receive that title?

It seems plausible it has to do with the passing of some knowledge (such as Eva getting told something by Beato, not that her solving the epitaph makes sense in terms of the murders continuing) but then what did Ange learn when Eva died?

Also why the heck did Eva kill Natsuhi and Krauss in game 3? It makes no sense unless she really was the culprit (and thus carried out all killings post-epitaph solving)
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Old 2012-05-16, 10:24   Link #28892
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
3. Fake-Murder-Mystery paranoia aside, there's no easily understood reason to kill EVERYBODY, for any one suspect, who would at least be concerned with their own immediate family. Basically, you run into the problem of why any given person would kill the likes of Jessica, Maria, and Godha, who haven't really done anything to anyone at any point.
If we stretch it there are one or two people who could want to kill Jessica to get her out of the line of succession, and maybe Rosa could kill Maria in a fit of rage. Maybe. But Gohda, there should be no reason for anyone to want him dead. And putting him aside, there is still nobody who has a motive to kill every last one of the other characters.

Hell, maybe it's a clue to show that Gohda is the real culprit. Maybe the entire household and all the other servants hated the meal he worked on so hard, and he decided to kill the lot for being ingrates.

Assuming we've been given all the info we need, we could take it as proof that no one person committed mass murder. If not, it's a real later Queen thing like Renall says.

It would all be a lot easier if we could say "Actually, Kinzo wasn't dead, and he sneaked out of his room and flipped the switch because he thought his family was pathetic and needed to go".

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But it is a valid question: What was Eva doing on the other side of the island? We know she was at least 1km away from the mansion area because she escaped the blast. Why? And Battler, what was their reason for being there?
Since Eva has the ring, we might assume either that she solved the epitaph on her own, or that maybe she did it with Battler. Battler doesn't seem to want the headship at all, so he would probably hand it over readily. He might hand it over to Eva even if he had solved it first.

Presumably Beatrice would either be waiting in the gold room or would approach the epitaph solver(s) afterwards. Beatrice could tell them everything, including about the tunnels. Or perhaps she wasn't there, and they decided to explore the tunnels anyway. The situation would be either one where only Eva or Eva and Battler learned about the tunnels, or one where everyone found out.

With the latter, maybe it was just luck that Eva and Battler happened to be the ones in the tunnels at the time. Potentially, the other characters could have been merrily exploring earlier too.

If it's the former, it's harder to explain unless both of them were escaping. Maybe it could be that they decided to split up to explore the tunnels before going back to tell everyone about the headship. Although I would have thought that Eva would want to get her headship established ASAP and not go off alone with Battler.

But maybe Battler and Eva weren't together after all? Battler could have seen something and been following her. My memory is unfortunately shaky on the details of this (it's hard to remember the details of all the locations! Ryukishi should give us a map), but the tunnel to Kuwadorian and to the place Battler might have escaped from diverge from each other, right? If Battler was following from a long distance behind, he might not know which way Eva had gone. Eva would assume he was as dead as all the rest of the family and servants.
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Old 2012-05-16, 10:28   Link #28893
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Also why the heck did Eva kill Natsuhi and Krauss in game 3? It makes no sense unless she really was the culprit (and thus carried out all killings post-epitaph solving)
You can very easily take her conversations with the witch inside her head as a battle between the rational part of her ('there's enough gold for everyone, why does it matter if I share it with the others?') and the selfish part ('I solved the epitaph, I'm the head, I worked all my life for this, why should I give any of it away, it all belongs to me'). And it seems like the 'witch' was winning in that struggle.

That's why I think that Eva killed Rosa, Rudolf/Kyrie and Krauss/Natsuhi. It's kind of weak, but it seems to be what the game is saying.
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Old 2012-05-16, 11:46   Link #28894
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About Eva's behavior in episode 3, I think it was likely Tooya was portraying her a an accomplice of Beatrice if she didn't actually commit any murders (which I think she did).

When I was rereading the part where she encountered the sequence of numbers, I noticed that she was very quick to copy them down. When I first read that part, I had realized it was some kind of communication from the culprit to someone else. Plus we know now that is the code for the back deposit of money which Beatrice uses to bribe people.

So I was struck on my second reading that this kinda proves episode 3 Eva and Beatrice had arranged a prior deal, probably in somewhere during the episode and this was payment of which Eva was fully aware.
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Old 2012-05-16, 13:47   Link #28895
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Presumably Beatrice would either be waiting in the gold room or would approach the epitaph solver(s) afterwards. Beatrice could tell them everything, including about the tunnels. Or perhaps she wasn't there, and they decided to explore the tunnels anyway. The situation would be either one where only Eva or Eva and Battler learned about the tunnels, or one where everyone found out.
Tohya specifically said that he's been told about the tunnels.

Quote:
I was told that an underground passage led to a hidden mansion on the opposite side of the island.
It could have been Beatrice or one of the "Gensawajo".

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With the latter, maybe it was just luck that Eva and Battler happened to be the ones in the tunnels at the time. Potentially, the other characters could have been merrily exploring earlier too.

If it's the former, it's harder to explain unless both of them were escaping. Maybe it could be that they decided to split up to explore the tunnels before going back to tell everyone about the headship. Although I would have thought that Eva would want to get her headship established ASAP and not go off alone with Battler.

But maybe Battler and Eva weren't together after all? Battler could have seen something and been following her. My memory is unfortunately shaky on the details of this (it's hard to remember the details of all the locations! Ryukishi should give us a map), but the tunnel to Kuwadorian and to the place Battler might have escaped from diverge from each other, right? If Battler was following from a long distance behind, he might not know which way Eva had gone. Eva would assume he was as dead as all the rest of the family and servants.
I really can't understand why they would explore the tunnels when
1) they had just found the gold, normally you would go tell everyone about it
2) they already knew where the tunnel would go since somebody told them

They must have had a pretty good reason to start a 2 km walk to an uninhabited mansion all by themselves. Curiosity just doesn't cut it. And to add more to that, the timing was absolutely perfect. they had two whole days to find the gold and "explore tunnels" but they just happened to do it near the end of the second, and both of them.

The fact that Eva doesn't want to talk about what happened, and the fact that Tohya doesn't want to remember also suggests that something bad occurred during those two days.
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Old 2012-05-16, 14:51   Link #28896
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Just re-examined the Banquet scenes around Kratsuhi's death. Several things I hadn't picked up on myself (though it may be common knowledge)
1. The kids/Nanjo (and thus, Battler) do indeed hear Eva raising a ruckus about how long Rudolf's group has been gone
2. Just as Nanjo is the only real option for George's disappearance, Eva is the only real option for Kratsuhi's disappearance since the final 4 went around AGAIN checking the locks and windows, and they were all locked from inside.
3. Eva tossing around the idea of whether she had killed Hideyoshi was probably her feeling bad for even putting him in a bad situation by not announcing the gold immediately.


While this makes sense for the forgery author to make things more ... mysterious, why in the hell would Eva or Nanjo have locked the guesthouse back up after shenanigans? They literally make themselves the ONLY possible suspects.

Also, as Drifloon says, Evatrice attacks Kratsuhi basically saying "Hell naw I won't forgive you for being a crap-sack brother for 50 years. MY gold now."

Regarding Tohya, I thought it odd that he mentions being told, but Ange never presses the point of asking who told him. Maybe it makes the most sense if it was Eva? Like, she found him wandering around the chapel and was just like "Nephew, come with me, no time to explain, TUNNELS." ??
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Old 2012-05-16, 17:00   Link #28897
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Regarding Tohya, I thought it odd that he mentions being told, but Ange never presses the point of asking who told him. Maybe it makes the most sense if it was Eva? Like, she found him wandering around the chapel and was just like "Nephew, come with me, no time to explain, TUNNELS." ??
Too many questions here

1) Why was Battler loitering around the chapel near midnight? (let's not forget that it was in a position that you had to purposedely move to to even see it)
2) How did Eva knew about where the tunnel would get to? She went there and back and then decided to go there again with Battler because after walking 4 km she didn't have enough?
3) Why would Eva want to get Battler there and not someone else?
4) Why and how they got separated if they went there together?
5) Why wouldn't Eva tell that Battler could be alive after she was rescued?
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Old 2012-05-16, 18:37   Link #28898
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But Battler never gave Erika permission to kill anyone. And if he did give her permission to kill anyone at the time she announced it, he cannot have been doing anything but a Genius Battler maneuver, as he has no rational reason to accept a move that is explicitly designed to trap him and which he does not have to accept.
I think the trick is he gave her permission to check on the 'corpses' without asking her what she planned to do with them. This left her technically free to do with them all she wanted, included chopping their heads off.

It's like the room sealing. As he agreed she could seal 3 rooms she managed to also repair the chain of his room and seal it without needing to tell him.

Actually I think Battler figured Erika would use the freedom those allowances gave her to kill people and seal the room (and therefore create the logic error he wanted) but, even if he didn't, once Erika declared how she used her freedom Battler couldn't use red truth to counter her declaration she killed people by chopping heads without revising the plot and have someone kill those people before Erika were to cut their heads off.

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Finally I agree re Maria and Ange. While Maria's struggle was sad because she tried so hard, when I read that scene with Ange all I could think was "I know your situation is terrible, and once people single you out it can be hard to break the cycle, but you sure aren't helping yourself here..."
Personally I think the whole Umineko does a poor job portraying how people like Yasu or Ange became who they are.

Let's pick Ange for example. In her past she might have attempted to make friends and she might have studied hard to no result because, after all, when people wants to bully you your grades aren't really importants.
Good students can be bullied as well as poor ones.

Anyway we see nothing of this. The novel shows us an Ange that has already gave up on fighting in order of having friends and that decides for a while to live in her fantasy world before rejecting that too and thinking that living hating Eva and seeking for death is a better option.

Through Ange's situation is bad, the novel doesn't bother to make clear she had no way out so people can think: hey, but why doesn't she try making something constructive instead than just daydreaming?

[Personally I think that it would have been difficult for Ange not to be the target of bullying, regardless of what she were to do but not impossible but I would have apprecciated to see Ange trying.]

In Yasu's case is even worse.
The info we're given about her doesn't seem to work as an excuse for her actions.
When you want to have readers empathize with a mass murderer you've to give said murderer a solid background so that people will say 'I don't approve what he did but I understand why'.
Instead the best Umineko does is to imply that the perception of the pain is relative, which is true but sounds like a poor excuse anyway.
Personally I'm more prone to empathize with Battler who lost his mother and had a troublesome family situation and therefore forgot his 'promise' than with Yasu, who just sits there and waits for a kid to come resque her on a white horse and gets desperate/angry when he doesn't.

Yasu probably has her own excuses for her behaviour as her life wasn't easy either but her problems are implied so vaguely that picturing them is left more to our imagination than to the narration making harder to justify her.
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Old 2012-05-16, 18:46   Link #28899
AuraTwilight
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I think the trick is he gave her permission to check on the 'corpses' without asking her what she planned to do with them. This left her technically free to do with them all she wanted, included chopping their heads off.
But checking on corpses and doing anything TO them are separate actions.
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Old 2012-05-17, 01:23   Link #28900
Vnonymous
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Erika flat out tells Battler that she investigated the corpses and he believed her. Her investigation involved cutting off their heads, but Battler didn't bother checking to see exaxctly what her investigation was. Erika herself said that there's only one way for a human who isn't the detective to get a clear answer as to whether or not someone is dead, and that's the type of investigation she performed.

Twisted logic, but not nearly as twisted as the other stuff that pops up in Umineko(like Shkanontrice at all).
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