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Old 2012-05-17, 01:29   Link #28901
Drifloon
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While this makes sense for the forgery author to make things more ... mysterious, why in the hell would Eva or Nanjo have locked the guesthouse back up after shenanigans? They literally make themselves the ONLY possible suspects.
To make it look like a witch did it, I assume. (The same reason Eva stakes the corpses.)
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Old 2012-05-17, 01:35   Link #28902
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After reviewing most of EP6, including the logic error, it plainly appears to me that the allowance of retroactive moves is simply a part of the logic error rules.
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Old 2012-05-17, 08:19   Link #28903
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Originally Posted by Vnonymous View Post
Erika flat out tells Battler that she investigated the corpses and he believed her. Her investigation involved cutting off their heads, but Battler didn't bother checking to see exaxctly what her investigation was. Erika herself said that there's only one way for a human who isn't the detective to get a clear answer as to whether or not someone is dead, and that's the type of investigation she performed.

Twisted logic, but not nearly as twisted as the other stuff that pops up in Umineko(like Shkanontrice at all).
Then Battler had to have known about it. Because he can't not know.

Seriously guys, Erika can't have "fooled" him. She either did something he knew about or chose to take a sudden move he intentionally accepted when he didn't have to. Neither points to actual surprise.
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Old 2012-05-17, 09:29   Link #28904
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[Personally I think that it would have been difficult for Ange not to be the target of bullying, regardless of what she were to do but not impossible but I would have apprecciated to see Ange trying.]
Oh I know she would have been bullied anyway, but maybe not by everyone. And when it comes to grades, it was something she could control if she wanted to, she just gave up.

Regarding the whole Eva ep 3 thing, I thought the point was they showed you her thought process in killing Krauss and Natsuhi because it was wrong. Sort of the real Eva arguing against crazy culprit theory, the way you would if people accused you of murders with a motive you felt you didn't really have.
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Old 2012-05-17, 10:25   Link #28905
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I wonder if Eva was wandering around the tunnels looking for Kinzo.

-There's always stories about Kinzo disappearing from his study. There's stories from the servants that often they are unable to find him until many hours later when he's sitting in his study again.

-Combined with Rosa's story of Kuwadorian.

-Eva would at least know of the tunnels that lead to the gold.

-We know that the siblings like pulling Devil's Proof as often as Battler likes suspecting Person X or Device X.

Eva: "My receipt proves that Kinzo never left the room!"

Natsutroll: "Well hidden doors?"

Eva: "Knox's Third!"

Natsutroll: "Seriously? This isn't fiction, this is serious business! Devil's Proof! You can't prove that you just didn't find them! You can't prove that Kinzo didn't simply just leave the mansion and you haven't found him yet!"

Nanjo: "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo.."

Eva: "You wanna bet?"

And so starts Eva's hunt for Kinzo through the tunnels. Eva just happened to be searching through Kuwadorian at the time the bomb goes off.

Okay, so my dialogue is out of character, but the scenario itself could be true. If we go with the theory that Eva is the only one who solved the epitaph, plus the way she acted in EP3 with keeping the finding of the gold a secret, plus she's the one who wants to reveal Krauss and Natsuhi for the frauds they are the most and planned the Assault on Krauss. If she can prove that Kinzo does not exist anywhere...
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Old 2012-05-17, 10:42   Link #28906
GreyZone
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OK, seems plausible for Eva... doens't explain why Battler was there too though.
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Old 2012-05-17, 11:30   Link #28907
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The cousins are playing a game of hide and seek. Battler is hiding.

Battler and Eva find the gold around the same time, similar to Rosa and Eva figuring it out in EP3 or Eva and Ange both getting the almond in EP8.

Well, that explains how he got there but not why...

Yasu's murder game led Battler deeper into the tunnels maybe as a way to "catch the culprit". At that point Yasu is glad to have been able to play a fun game with Battler again and confesses. Battler remembers his sin and then EP8 tea party happens.
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Old 2012-05-17, 11:59   Link #28908
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OK does not sound bad at all. Let's check the end premise.

How does Battler suddenly get hit by a car somewhere in a forest? What happened after he fell from the boat?

(I know it can easily be solved by saying Ikuko=Yasu, but it still interests me, how it can be explained by Ikuko=RandomStranger)
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Old 2012-05-17, 12:01   Link #28909
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Then Battler had to have known about it. Because he can't not know.

Seriously guys, Erika can't have "fooled" him. She either did something he knew about or chose to take a sudden move he intentionally accepted when he didn't have to. Neither points to actual surprise.
Or Ryukishi changed the rules between EP6 and EP8. You know, like he does all the time.
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Old 2012-05-17, 12:04   Link #28910
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Or Ryukishi changed the rules between EP6 and EP8. You know, like he does all the time.
Even if it was retconned, the truth of the future overwrites the truth of the past.
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Old 2012-05-17, 16:51   Link #28911
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Well, I was half kidding when I suggested Eva finds Battler conveniently by the chapel, because EP7 fed us that hokey story with troll phone calls. You don't need him to be at any specific place at all. All you need is Georgeyoshi to be dead, and Eva to be able to intuit that Battler is innocent.

Or, even more simply, Georgeyoshi to be dead, and Battler to NOT be dead, and she can take Battler along with her for whatever reason her suspicon, or lack thereof, would allow.

Also, I'm going to add "Eva never mentioned that Battler was still alive? REALLY?" to the pile that Tohya is probably just lying to Ange about the circumstances of the escape. Or maybe he secretly suspected her of being a killer, and made a break for it at some point in the tunnels? And Eva was all "Oh geez, I guess he got exploded."
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Old 2012-05-17, 18:07   Link #28912
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If we assume Ikuko=Yasu, it would be possible that Eva, Battler and Beato decided to split on purpose. We had many clues in the whole series, that every of the mothers would be ready to take resposibility for the children of their silblings. So let us assume that after the explosion they somehow got to the consent, that Eva goes to Kuwadorian alone, and Battler+Beato go with a boat and have a future free from media attacks and the like. This would also explain why Eva would stay quiet all the time, even if it really was just an unlucky accident.

The brain injury can have happened at any time later, or before with Beato carrying Battler's uncousious body with her.

And I think in this scenario Eva didn't tell ange anything about Battler because she was waiting for him to approach her, before giving Ange false hopes.
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Old 2012-05-17, 18:47   Link #28913
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Oh, on an unrelated note.

Was reading a Ray Bradbury short today, that was about notable 'Supernaturalist" writers, who had been given some kind of abstract, "as long as people are still reading my work" existence, in an Emerald City on Mars. And the drama of the story was them trying to fend off the arrival of a ship (well, a rocket ship) of people from earth who would "defile everything" with their science and logic.

And their leader was Edgar Allen Poe, and they tried to defend themselves with the three witches from Shakespeares Macbeth, and upon the ships arrival they formed an army consisting of their supernatural creations and characters to defend their right to exist and I was all like "WAIT A DAMN MINUTE."

Of course, THAT story didn't end in a huge, shonen-style Battle Royale (un ... fortunately?), but, you know. I would not have minded if it had.
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Old 2012-05-17, 21:43   Link #28914
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Then Battler had to have known about it. Because he can't not know.

Seriously guys, Erika can't have "fooled" him. She either did something he knew about or chose to take a sudden move he intentionally accepted when he didn't have to. Neither points to actual surprise.
Erika:"For the rest of the fight in this room, the progression of all time will be stopped. This way, all the moves for both players will be made at the same time, and the first move made will be treated no differently than the last move. ......That might be hard to understand, but that's a rule to protect you and your logic."
Bernkastel:"......From here on out, you can use all the twisted logic you want to rebuild the trick in this room. ......In other words, it's possible that you might think of a good idea partway through the fight. ......Normally, it's unfair to revise your plot partway through. In order for that to be acceptable, ......you need a world stopped in time, where everything happens at once, ......and where logic that you think of afterwards can counter your opponent's earlier moves."
Lambdadelta:"Of course, Erika can take advantage of this rule as well. ......If you revise your trick to be a new one, she can deal with that in a different way."

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
How does Battler suddenly get hit by a car somewhere in a forest? What happened after he fell from the boat?

(I know it can easily be solved by saying Ikuko=Yasu, but it still interests me, how it can be explained by Ikuko=RandomStranger)
I wouldn't call it easily solved even with Ikuko=Yasu. Got a good blue?
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Old 2012-05-17, 22:53   Link #28915
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:"......From here on out, you can use all the twisted logic you want to rebuild the trick in this room.
Sorry, Wanderer. But Erika's murders can't be retroactive, only off-camera.
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Old 2012-05-18, 03:30   Link #28916
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Sorry, Wanderer. But Erika's murders can't be retroactive, only off-camera.
Think you might be a little hasty with the linguistic interpretation there? Here's the original Japanese:

Erika:「これより、この部屋での戦いは、時間進行を停止して行ないます。それにより、双方の全ての手は、同時的であり、最初に出された手であろ うと、後から出された手であろうと、同じ意味を持ちます。……意味がわかりにくいと思いますが、これはロジ ックを守るための、あなたを保護するルールです。」
Bern:「……あなたはこれから、屁理屈の限りを尽くして、この部屋のトリックの再構築を行なうわ。……つまり、戦いの途中で、良いアイデアが思いつく可能性もあるということ。………本 来、筋書きを途中で変更するのはアンフェアな行為。それを認めるために、……後から思いついたロジックであ っても、後出しではないという、同時的な時間停止の世界が必要なのよ。」
Lambda:「もちろん、これはヱリカにとっても利用できるルール。……戦人が変更した新しいトリックに対応して、別 の対応を取ることが出来る。」

"この部屋のトリック" was translated as "trick in this room", but could just as easily be "trick of this room" or "this room's trick". There's no "inside" anywhere in that sentence in its original Japanese.

The Japanese does have an "inside" mentioned in Erika's first sentence "これより、この部屋での戦い", in "From here on, for the fight in this room...".

Overall, I wouldn't say it's very clear whether this says actions that, in gameboard time, occur before the entry of the room are off limits or not. But at the very least we know that moves such as Erika repairing the chain lock were retroactive (and thus legitimately could be surprises to Battler).

All things considered, it makes more sense to me to just go with the idea that everything was retroactive instead of just 1 of Erika's actions not being so, especially when retroactive moves were flying left and right at the time. And furthermore, I don't know how Erika would know all about logic error rules but be completely ignorant of the board mechanic where the Game Master would have been aware long ago that she had killed the fakers.
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Old 2012-05-18, 07:02   Link #28917
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I wouldn't call it easily solved even with Ikuko=Yasu. Got a good blue?
After the brain damage happened for some reason, Ikuko decided to tell Tohya multiple times a lie about how they met. After some time he thought it was real. At the end his head hurt less, because he does not have to access his real memories, but new, fake ones instead.

In other words, some of the scenes we see in the middle of EP8 are fake, with the intention, to lessen the pain of Tohya's headaches.


When I think about this, it actually can be used for Ikuko=RandomStranger too. While I myself do believe in Ikuko=Yasu, I always try to find answers for both alternatives, because I don't want to limit the discussions to half of the community.
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Old 2012-05-18, 07:29   Link #28918
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post

All things considered, it makes more sense to me to just go with the idea that everything was retroactive instead of just 1 of Erika's actions not being so, especially when retroactive moves were flying left and right at the time. And furthermore, I don't know how Erika would know all about logic error rules but be completely ignorant of the board mechanic where the Game Master would have been aware long ago that she had killed the fakers.
No Wanderer it doesn't make sense at all because it was specifically stated that that retroactive power was only limited to the three rooms Erika selected. This is a power that Battler granted her and he was very specific on its limits.

As for the part Bernkastel said, she is talking to Battler and not to Erika, and Battler does have retroactive power on the whole gameboard as a Game Master.
As for Erika, though, is there even any reason or a logical explanation for her to have such power outside of what "stupid" Battler allowed her to have?
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Old 2012-05-18, 08:38   Link #28919
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If Erika can commit murders retroactively "because it's a Logic Error" - mind you, we never got a fully codified set of rules for what even can happen in a Logic Error, so it's really just "because the author says so" if we use your interpretation, Wanderer - what else can she do retroactively? Can she say she murdered everyone in the two rooms she sealed up too? Why not just say she murdered Battler as well, retroactively? If Erika is allowed unlimited retroactive moves, how can she possibly lose? Also, if she's allowed unlimited retroactive moves, why are Battler's restrictions on her room sealings etc. still in effect?

All evidence suggests that Battler has to either give someone permission to make a move retroactively (which is, in effect, just using his GM powers to rewrite the story as instructed on his own prerogative), they have to be a GM themselves (there is no evidence of this until ep8 where it's specifically covered), or any "hidden" move they take was done at the proper time in the story, in which case as GM he must be aware of it.

As for why Erika would be aware of one rule and not the other... well we're not really told what rules she actually knows. In fact, we as the reader don't know the rules ourselves. We are at least informed of the existence of Logic Errors early in ep6, however. We are also told a bit about them after the fact. It's still about as clear as mud what specifically does or doesn't apply to them. That's Ryukishi's fault for pulling stuff out of his ass though, and as somebody said, the point is that in a later episode he says the GM knows everything, so even if his original intent was that Battler didn't know, by his own "revelation" (read: retcon, if you think it's that) Battler did know, because he had to know.
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Old 2012-05-18, 10:23   Link #28920
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As for the part Bernkastel said, she is talking to Battler and not to Erika
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Lambdadelta:"Of course, Erika can take advantage of this rule as well. ......If you revise your trick to be a new one, she can deal with that in a different way."
------------------------------------------

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Can she say she murdered everyone in the two rooms she sealed up too? Why not just say she murdered Battler as well, retroactively?
I would imagine she's restricted by the flow of the story. She can only do things that she could realistically do. And in Battler's case I suspect that retroactive actions can only be taken when unobserved, and Battler was BATTLER's first person observer so he would be off-limits. It's the same reason that BATTLER can't just retroactively kill Erika.

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Also, if she's allowed unlimited retroactive moves, why are Battler's restrictions on her room sealings etc. still in effect?
I'm not sure that such restrictions ever were "effective" (at least when it comes to retroactivity; the number of rooms that were sealable is another matter). It was mentioned earlier that Game Masters were not really supposed to change their stories mid-way through, but that they could get away with it because no one could prove that their adjusted story wasn't what they were planning all along.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Battler's "permission" was redundant. People always could, but aren't "supposed" to, make retroactive moves; the circumstances just forced Erika to do so openly, so Battler was just saying "Yeah that's OK".
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