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Old 2012-05-20, 20:24   Link #28941
RandomAvatarFan
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I've never actually thought about why Ikuko had the Book of One Truth which I believe is synonymous with Eva's diary. Was it stated in text how she got it?

Eva must have somehow gotten in contact with Battler/Tohya after the incident. There's a reason Eva was hiding it. I don't play with George culprit theory, and I know Eva is not Prime's culprit. But she knew Battler was alive and she hid even that from Ange.

As I think about that Higurashi's "Demon Script" plays into my mind...

Also, talking about how the diary got into Ikuko's hands... how did it get into Featherine's? Bernkastel (a miracle) took it from Ange (Resurrection/Truth) who got it from the Chapel. Has the significance of the chapel ever been discussed like this? As in there's more to the chapel than just the sacrifices for the epitaph. What the heck happened in the chapel that night?
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Old 2012-05-20, 22:11   Link #28942
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
I've never actually thought about why Ikuko had the Book of One Truth which I believe is synonymous with Eva's diary. Was it stated in text how she got it?
Hmm, If I'm remembering correctly, she claimed to have gotten it, from ... a nurse found it among Eva's belonging's in the hospital after she died, or something like that, and basically ... snatched it. And Ikuko ended up buying it.

Might be wrong on the specifics, 'cause I'm too lazy to go to my laptop and check, but it definitely involved a nurse finding it, and some shady purchase. Assuming you choose to believe her, anyways. Assuming Ikuko did have possession of Battler pretty much since October of 1986, I guess it wouldn't be ... too crazy to assume she paid Eva a visit at some point...

Would've been hella awkward.
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Old 2012-05-21, 05:05   Link #28943
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How nice of her never to mention it to Eva that she totally had Battler....


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Eva is not Prime's culprit.
I am not sure even that can be red, she may have had some involvement. We know she is capable of even shooting Battler for unknown reasons.
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Old 2012-05-21, 12:36   Link #28944
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We know she is capable of even shooting Battler for unknown reasons.
No we don't.
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Old 2012-05-21, 12:52   Link #28945
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Old 2012-05-21, 15:41   Link #28946
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Pretty much. Except that Ryukishi is a bad mystery writer.
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Old 2012-05-21, 16:17   Link #28947
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Pretty much. Except that Ryukishi is a bad mystery writer.
But his mysteries are the best.
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Old 2012-05-21, 18:56   Link #28948
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No, they are not. His mysteries are very poor and cliche by the standards of mystery fiction at large. A good deal of mystery enthusiasts were disappointed in it.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:14   Link #28949
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No we don't.
Well no, but we do know she fired her gun at the end of ep three (Ryu confirmed this, though I guess was vague on the specifics) and also that pieces shouldn't be able to do what their real characters couldn't.

As for the mystery, having never read any mysteries I found it quite enjoyable (though I accept it was cliche, however Ryu sort of implied he knew that and was waiting for people to figure it out to crank up the difficulty, but the audience at large did not). Aside from that it was an interesting tale with a good message, a new take with the whole lying in narrative thing, and also it was solvable for the most part. So i would say not too bad on the whole.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:54   Link #28950
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What do you think the "good message" was?

Because I tend to agree with most here that the "message" that Episode 8 sent was pretty horrible.
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Old 2012-05-22, 06:01   Link #28951
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As for the mystery, having never read any mysteries I found it quite enjoyable (though I accept it was cliche, however Ryu sort of implied he knew that and was waiting for people to figure it out to crank up the difficulty, but the audience at large did not). Aside from that it was an interesting tale with a good message, a new take with the whole lying in narrative thing, and also it was solvable for the most part. So i would say not too bad on the whole.
This is something I find so weird. I know Ryu was writing mostly for his Japanese, Otaku readership, and that's part of why we have all the bikini-squad characters, and such a prolonged, blatant lampshade hanging on alot of mystery tropes ... the idea being that his audience wouldn't be all that familiar with them. And that he followed online discussion (again, in Japan), and would modify the next bit of story to subvert their theories, make certain closed rooms easier or harder, etc. etc.

Sometimes, though, I gotta wonder what the hell the Japanese fandom was thinking at certain points. I only have the story in it's finished state to go by, and apparently EP5 happened because people STILL heavily suspected Natsuhi at that point or something ... and some people decided it was unsolvable after Kanon drew his blade in Turn ... and I just don't ... understand how one could come to those conclusions? Even without a basic familiarity with mysteries?

I mean, I've always enjoyed golden age mystery tropes, but was by no means a buff. My understanding is that the Japanese also have a rather notable history with the genre, too, so ... I dunno. I WONDER ABOUT THOSE READERS SOMETIMES.
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Old 2012-05-22, 06:40   Link #28952
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No, they are not. His mysteries are very poor and cliche by the standards of mystery fiction at large. A good deal of mystery enthusiasts were disappointed in it.
It wasn't so much the mystery itself as the theme he used to handle it. I mean, a secluded island in the middle of a typhoon, a rich family, an inheritance of ten tons of gold in the middle, yeah, we've all heard of that. I think it is the original approach he used that did the trick.

Plus, that sort of cliche usually have some charm for most readers.

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What do you think the "good message" was?

Because I tend to agree with most here that the "message" that Episode 8 sent was pretty horrible.
It varies from person to person.
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Old 2012-05-22, 09:03   Link #28953
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I don't really have a problem with the setting, mystery writers (and especially in this case) often need to close off their characters from the outside world somehow. Besides, you are forgetting for the Japanese it would be more unusual for such a rich and old family to be so Western, in fact it was sort of the point. I guess it would be similar for us to read a ghost story set in a house that turns out to be inhabited by demons the next day, and all the delicious food you ate was maggots etc (sort of a Japanese staple I think).

Quote:
good message
I don't think it encouraged living your life in fantasy, I mean, look what happened when Beato and Ange did it. I sort of thought it was teaching to interpret your life in a happy when given the option. Though this is very subjective of me.

As for the Japanese readers, I can sort of understand people who were trying to explain it as a mystery getting stuck with the whole Kanon blade thing. For anyone who hasn't seen it happen before it is a big leap to simply say the author is lying, because then what do you trust? (Though I guess the presence of the red truths really should have taught them stuff could be a lie, but we didn't know about Battler's objective perspective until after EP 4).

Wouldn't it have been interesting if Ryu's fanbase had all actually read some golden age novels? Battler would have been more competent for one thing. And Ryu would have had to create some interesting tricks, because as Erika stated, most of the sensible ways to create a closed room murder have already been thought of and solved. If they were going to be as good as the super long and twist filled journey of the bodies in TW1 game 1 (come on, you know he did a good job with that one) then I really would have liked to read it.
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Old 2012-05-22, 11:49   Link #28954
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I don't think it encouraged living your life in fantasy, I mean, look what happened when Beato and Ange did it. I sort of thought it was teaching to interpret your life in a happy when given the option. Though this is very subjective of me.
The main problem here is that there wasn't a lot of actual coming down on the obvious downsides to this. A retreat into fantasy is arguably harmful to Ange and Maria; Alliance certainly provided enough evidence to suggest exactly that. On the other hand, however, it didn't really do a lot to suggest that this was bad (that is, the conclusion that it's bad is something an individual reader draws, not something the author is actually clearly trying to say), and in later episodes even took some steps to suggest the opposite to an extent.

This just makes the message... confused? Ange's life was not really any better for her retreat into her personal (and in her case, quite dark) fantasies. And certainly he piled on the tragedy with her, to the point that it seems like you couldn't help but think he was saying it was unhealthy. But then he sometimes suggests otherwise, especially in Requiem/Twilight. And further, he offers no real alternative except "have a happier delusion," and he doesn't even really commit to that either.

If his goal was to portray some kind of happy medium between cynical adherence to reality (anti-fantasy?) and useless escapism from real problems (anti-mystery?), it didn't come together in the end as a really obvious "answer" that the author seemed to actually be endorsing. Even the notion that Ange could move on and channel her imagination in a more productive manner wasn't as thematically addressed as it probably should have been. The elements are there, it just feels half-assembled at times.

And then at other times he just seems to have been going off the rails entirely, from a moral standpoint. Sympathy for mass murder, covering up possible crimes (or failing to expose an earnest accident), justifying Kinzo's behavior at some points or condemning it at others, etc.
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Old 2012-05-22, 12:09   Link #28955
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Well, I think he wanted the readers to come to their own conclusions on the moral issues in the story. One of the major themes of the story seems to be that he wants you to keep thinking about it - that's why he provided such cryptic answers to the closed rooms and the culprit's motive, after all.

The varying opinions on these issues come from different characters, most of the time. It's hardly a surprise that different people have different views on these things.

Also...

Quote:
If they were going to be as good as the super long and twist filled journey of the bodies in TW1 game 1 (come on, you know he did a good job with that one) then I really would have liked to read it.
TW1? I really don't know what that's supposed to stand for at all. You mean the first twilight of the first game? There wasn't anything special about that, was there?
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Old 2012-05-22, 12:52   Link #28956
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I think the problem is that people like to cast what the real Ange did as delusion. I think what Ryukishi was trying to say (and was not quite clear enough is) that there's a difference between Maria's unwavering hope in her mother loving her and being slowly destroyed by it versus Ange-Prime's unwavering hope that Battle or her family will return. Ryukishi needed to cast the difference better here though, but I think a can sort of understand some of the themes here.

Unfortunately calling this "delusion" really leads to dead end thinking, as if anyone who's ever had a loved one go missing is delusional to think they could return. This is the problem with the fanbase on the internet, it's to easy to resort to negative, thinking-shut-down ideas. Which Ryukishi definitely used to his advantage. 8)
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Old 2012-05-22, 12:56   Link #28957
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I think the problem is that people like to cast what the real Ange did as delusion. I think what Ryukishi was trying to say (and was not quite clear enough is) that there's a difference between Maria's unwavering hope in her mother loving her and being slowly destroyed by it versus Ange-Prime's unwavering hope that Battle or her family will return. Ryukishi needed to cast the difference better here though, but I think a can sort of understand some of the themes here.

Unfortunately calling this "delusion" really leads to dead end thinking, as if anyone who's ever had a loved one go missing is delusional to think they could return. This is the problem with the fanbase on the internet, it's to easy to resort to negative, thinking-shut-down ideas. Which Ryukishi definitely used to his advantage. 8)
She was seeing things that did not exist. That's "delusional." Surely you didn't forget that part of Alliance?
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Old 2012-05-22, 14:04   Link #28958
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I still don't understand, how Yukari is in any way delusional or applies escapism. Where do you see that?
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Old 2012-05-22, 14:24   Link #28959
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Well no, but we do know she fired her gun at the end of ep three (Ryu confirmed this, though I guess was vague on the specifics) and also that pieces shouldn't be able to do what their real characters couldn't.
Then I guess Rudolf and Kyrie killed everyone and that Kyrie doesn't love Ange, huh?

The "Pieces can't do what their real selves couldn't" thing is complete bullshit and always has been. It's a handwave he used to plug up a plothole but it doesn't hold water.

Quote:
It wasn't so much the mystery itself as the theme he used to handle it. I mean, a secluded island in the middle of a typhoon, a rich family, an inheritance of ten tons of gold in the middle, yeah, we've all heard of that. I think it is the original approach he used that did the trick.

Plus, that sort of cliche usually have some charm for most readers.
That would be the plot, not the mysteries. The mysteries would be stuff like the Closed Rooms, or the identity of the culprit.

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I still don't understand, how Yukari is in any way delusional or applies escapism. Where do you see that?
She embraces Beato's magic 'read: self-deception', and eve nthough she had Reds and concrete evidence that Battler was gone, went on believing otherwise.

She also taught Maria's magic 'read: total delusion' to a bunch of orphans, complete with a Beatrice painting.

Even if you argue that she herself is not delusional per se, Yukari sure seems to be endorsing it.
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Old 2012-05-22, 15:50   Link #28960
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I don't really have a problem with the setting, mystery writers (and especially in this case) often need to close off their characters from the outside world somehow. Besides, you are forgetting for the Japanese it would be more unusual for such a rich and old family to be so Western, in fact it was sort of the point. I guess it would be similar for us to read a ghost story set in a house that turns out to be inhabited by demons the next day, and all the delicious food you ate was maggots etc (sort of a Japanese staple I think).
I never said I have a problem with it, I just said the themes upon which Umineko is set are pretty much the standards. I mean, come on, how many 'mystery films' that exist out there don't feel even a little bit familiar?

Well, I guess when it comes to mystery, themes like that are the most charming, and are fun to experiment on, it's just not very original.

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That would be the plot, not the mysteries. The mysteries would be stuff like the Closed Rooms, or the identity of the culprit.
Yes, I meant it as the thematic circle on which the mysteries are based. I'm not really sure how the identity of the culprit was suppsoed to be cliche. A 'genderless' culprit with multiple personalities doesn't ring any bells, it actually seems to be right off the bat.

Since I'm not that well-read when it comes to the genre of mystery, I wouldn't know about the Closed Rooms, but I think his approach to them was very inspiring.

Quote:
She embraces Beato's magic 'read: self-deception', and eve nthough she had Reds and concrete evidence that Battler was gone, went on believing otherwise.

She also taught Maria's magic 'read: total delusion' to a bunch of orphans, complete with a Beatrice painting.

Even if you argue that she herself is not delusional per se, Yukari sure seems to be endorsing it.
Except Yukari is a children's book author, she's not selling out bibles and charms. I think this is the line between escapism and real problems. She keeps Maria alive through the books she writes, I don't think there's anything unhealthy about that since literature is a form of art that adresses the soul.For example, you wouldn't think J.K. Rowling is trying to teach 'magic' and 'delusions' to the millions of children who read her books.

And Battler did come back after all, didn't he? Keeping an even naive hope alive never killed anyone (provided that she wasn't encouraged by it to go to extremes).
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