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Old 2012-05-22, 16:26   Link #28961
Renall
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Except Yukari is a children's book author, she's not selling out bibles and charms. I think this is the line between escapism and real problems. She keeps Maria alive through the books she writes, I don't think there's anything unhealthy about that since literature is a form of art that adresses the soul.For example, you wouldn't think J.K. Rowling is trying to teach 'magic' and 'delusions' to the millions of children who read her books.
J.K. Rowling didn't build a recreation of Hogwarts and teach a bunch of kids the Way of Dumbledore.

Yet.
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Old 2012-05-22, 16:51   Link #28962
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
J.K. Rowling didn't build a recreation of Hogwarts and teach a bunch of kids the Way of Dumbledore.
But the so called "recreation" of the main hall is just a design that was used. Since the Orphange was in a building phase anyway and she gave the money, just choosing how "1" room in the orphange resembles "1" room of the rokkenjima villa would not be viewed as "running away from reality" by anyone....

Also for your Harry Potter example to work, she would have had to try to "reconstruct" the whole Villa, or even the whole Island.
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Old 2012-05-22, 19:19   Link #28963
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
J.K. Rowling didn't build a recreation of Hogwarts and teach a bunch of kids the Way of Dumbledore.

Yet.
Universal Studios Orlando would like to have a word with you.

(Just imagine the horrors if Ange got her own theme park.... A Mount Purgatory Rollercoaster with Sakutaro cars and all the prizes from games are pink hairclips....)
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Old 2012-05-22, 21:15   Link #28964
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Wait a minute... are we even sure that Ange playing around with Mammon in Alliance is Prime? How do we know that maybe it isn't Ange writing down her thoughts in a private place, perhaps creating the foundation of "Sakutarou's adventure"?
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Old 2012-05-22, 22:18   Link #28965
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Wait a minute... are we even sure that Ange playing around with Mammon in Alliance is Prime? How do we know that maybe it isn't Ange writing down her thoughts in a private place, perhaps creating the foundation of "Sakutarou's adventure"?
Well, we ... don't. Of course, at it's logical extreme, we have no proof there even IS a "Prime", it's just ... simpler and often more satisfying to assume so.

Honestly, the specific timeline of Ange's collective misadventures is probably one of the trippiest things in the series, even putting aside that we've probably seen no less than 3 seperate instances of the girl. She has, at variois points, gone to the past, gone to the future, gone to the future while she was in the future of the past THEN jumped a Meta layer while observing herself from the previous layer, been a player, observer, reader, piece, witch, witch-hunter, and all other manner of WTF-ery.

...however, it was definitely my impression that Alliance showed us why she was so damned miserable at school. She was a withdrawn girl with survivor guilt, worsened by Eva's eventually sour attitude, worsened STILL by her opting to build herself a murder harem instead of socializing of even studying. It's the playing around with Mammon that gives us the context for when she orders the Stakes to kill her classmates, or when she witnesses what magic "really is" while inside Kawabata's shop.
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Old 2012-05-23, 00:01   Link #28966
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
J.K. Rowling didn't build a recreation of Hogwarts and teach a bunch of kids the Way of Dumbledore.

Yet.
Oh, I'm sorry, I had totally forgotten about the 'this is a school to teach that magic line'. Well, I never thought it was literal, so that must be why it slipped my mind so easily. Ange says she's teaching those kids the 'magic' to achieve happiness in their lives, but I always thought of it as being metaphorical.

And by the way, the Ushiromiya family mansion was her family's home, and the place that they died, so it's not the same thing.
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Old 2012-05-23, 01:43   Link #28967
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
She embraces Beato's magic 'read: self-deception', and eve nthough she had Reds and concrete evidence that Battler was gone, went on believing otherwise.

She also taught Maria's magic 'read: total delusion' to a bunch of orphans, complete with a Beatrice painting.

Even if you argue that she herself is not delusional per se, Yukari sure seems to be endorsing it.
A more positive way to read "self-deception" is "not giving up hope", I believe. Which imo doesn't automatically translate into something to be frowned upon.

And in Yukari's case I believe it's rewarded in the end. Despite so called concrete evidence that Battler was gone, she finally got to meet Touya, who was more or less Battler.

So, "believing in magic" can really simply translate to "believing in hope". But of course, some people can then say this view itself is an escapism. Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, after all. It's best to doubt anything and everything and never be satisfied with any given answer, not even your own. But then again, some people just wants to live in peace and I can't really blame them.
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Old 2012-05-23, 02:23   Link #28968
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That's very valid, but Ryukishi himself doesn't make a distinction between Yukari's worldview and how Maria, Yasu, and the younger Ange believed and behaved. Read the way Ryukishi really wrote it, it prints out to simply validating that way of thinking, instead of demonstrating a transformation from childlike escapism to hope in the face of reality.

And that's the problem.
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Old 2012-05-23, 04:00   Link #28969
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J.K. Rowling didn't build a recreation of Hogwarts and teach a bunch of kids the Way of Dumbledore.
Yeah, as someone mentioned, that totally exists. Plus there is apparently a social media website for it too.

As for the message, I mean specifically the way Ange can choose to believe the best in Eva/ Or for more Ep 8 goodness, the point that since she can't really know what happened on that day and her family can't always have been terrible, she might just as well think everyone had a nice time together before dying. I also thought the magic she taught orphans was how to find the happiness in their life where they could.

I can even apply it to a recent real world example I came across, but it seems soppy and long winded to mention it here.
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Old 2012-05-23, 06:18   Link #28970
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Also, once again unrelated, in regards to Hideyoshi in ep 5 twilight whichever he is killed in (I thought TW meant twilight, but eh), was he actually killed? Because I don't remember if others arrived before Eva and could fake the chain being cut...

Furthermore, was Rudolf's "I'm probably going to be killed tonight" a clue to being in on the murder thing, or him being all dramatic about telling Kyrie that he stole her baby (or knowing her, maybe not so dramatic)

Last edited by GuestSpeaker; 2012-05-23 at 06:47.
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Old 2012-05-23, 07:13   Link #28971
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Also, once again unrelated, in regards to Hideyoshi in ep 5 twilight whichever he is killed in (I thought TW meant twilight, but eh), was he actually killed? Because I don't remember if others arrived before Eva and could fake the chain being cut...
He most probably faked it. I mean, if it happened in the first twilight it could happen in the second, and it is a lot easier to explain it that way.

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Furthermore, was Rudolf's "I'm probably going to be killed tonight" a clue to being in on the murder thing, or him being all dramatic about telling Kyrie that he stole her baby (or knowing her, maybe not so dramatic)
It's heavily implied that's the second. Then again if he was part of the conspiracy and if the first twilight was fake he might have as well said so because he knew he'd be one of the first to "die" or for both reasons. But we have absolutely no evidence that he knew about the fake murder conspiracy at that point.
The scene of EP2 where we see Beatrice and the adults in the chapel, making them admit the witch's existence, the red truth in EP4 stating that "everyone recognized Kinzo's exitence", as well as the fact that almost invariably in every game we are not made to know what happens in the late night family meeting, suggests that the adults are made to take part in the plan at that time, and not before.
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Old 2012-05-23, 08:59   Link #28972
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I thought the Kinzo thing may have been a literal reference to where the gold was kept. If you examine that scene carefully in Ep 4 you see Beato couldn't refute Battler's blue due to it encroaching upon ShKannon territory, so how accurate it was outside of that is sort of null and void (clever move Ryu)
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Old 2012-05-23, 17:25   Link #28973
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Also, once again unrelated, in regards to Hideyoshi in ep 5 twilight whichever he is killed in (I thought TW meant twilight, but eh), was he actually killed? Because I don't remember if others arrived before Eva and could fake the chain being cut...
Event is presented as follows :
1. Everyone is in the parlor. They agree to take a break.
2. Natsuhi goes to guest room closet. Hideyoshi enters the same room, and locks the door behind him.
3. Natsuhi hears Hideyoshi being murdered. During the struggle, Eva can hear through the door, bangs on it, and runs to get help.
4. Everyone (sans Natsuhi) hurries to the guest room with bolt cutters. Erika, however, goes outside to check the shutters/windows, and meets them at the room a few moments later.
5. Erika does not enter the guest room, OR examine the corpse. Hideyoshi's body is covered with sheets and carried out. The entire group returns to the parlor. Natsuhi leaves the closet to follow several moments later.

If I recall correctly, Erika claims to have found one of Natsuhi's buttons in the closet during her later investigation. I don't think we have a lot of CHOICE other than "Hideyoshi was faking", especially since we know Eva's piece can be made to raise all kinds of ruckus as drama requires (for example, according to the reds, she DEFINITELY KNEW George was still alive, yet still stomped and wailed and beat the shit of Natsuhi later for it).

Also, regarding Kinzo, I always thought "acknowledged his existence" just meant that the parents were brought to ACKNOWLEDGE that he was freakin' dead. I dunno how particular Japanese is on the distinction between terms like "exist" / "alive", but ... there isn't too too much of a trick there, anyways.

Hideyohi's death is also extremely weird because he is presumably a Second Twilight death, yet dies alone.
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Old 2012-05-23, 17:40   Link #28974
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There's actually no specific requirement that the Second Twilight victims die, even with an especially liberal reading of the epitaph.
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Old 2012-05-23, 18:40   Link #28975
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Hideyohi's death is also extremely weird because he is presumably a Second Twilight death, yet dies alone.
The second twilight required to part the two who were close.
According to how you interpret it, it can mean:
to kill two people who love each other
to kill one of the two overmentioned people
to cause one of the two overmentioned people to disappear.

In short everything goes as long as you part two people who love each other (not necessarily in a romantical way as parting Rosa/Maria still works)
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Old 2012-05-23, 19:51   Link #28976
Kealym
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Yes, that's perfectly true. It's just, there's no precedence for anything beyond "kill two people". Legend and Turn went for an established couple, Banquet went mother/daughter, and Alliance went cousin/cousin.

The only counterpoints are Hideyoshi in End, which is ALREADY riddled with oddities, Kanon in Dawn, though who knows if that even ... counts, and the fact that solving the epitaph in Requiem didn't involve removing letters.

Well, the "one lover disappears" angle was used kinda-sorta in Turn, with Kanon, but his death was announced almost immediately, so...
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Old 2012-05-23, 20:07   Link #28977
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Alternatively, the Second Twilight can be appeased by breaking up a couple.

"Leave Kanon, or I'll kill him" would make an awesome scene in a Forgery.
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Old 2012-05-24, 04:45   Link #28978
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Beat would be all over that sort of emotional blackmail. Or Bern would promise it and have someone else kill him or something.

Quote:
(for example, according to the reds, she DEFINITELY KNEW George
Do you mean the reds about no corpses getting moved after death?

Also poor Natsuhi, she sure got messed over in that game. People KNEW she was in there...
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Old 2012-05-24, 16:35   Link #28979
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Do you mean the reds about no corpses getting moved after death?
Combined with the red that you CAN'T be mistaken about whether the kids were dead. Together you're left with "George is alive. Eva KNOWS he's alive, and is working really really hard for that Best Supporting Actress award."

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Also poor Natsuhi, she sure got messed over in that game. People KNEW she was in there...
Ha, I never looked at it that way. Now that I think about it, that's indeed one of the only cases where the group doesn't search the entire room a victim was in (I think).
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Old 2012-05-24, 20:41   Link #28980
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Combined with the red that you CAN'T be mistaken about whether the kids were dead. Together you're left with "George is alive. Eva KNOWS he's alive, and is working really really hard for that Best Supporting Actress award."
This isn't absolutely true. Technically, only corpses can't be misidentified. That still allows non-corpses to be misidentified as corpses.

KnownNoMore's theory actually has the cousins' deaths being faked with only Nanjo knowing. Battler and the others were merely convinced that the (fake) wounds they saw were impossible to live through.

Incidentally, KnownNoMore also has a solution for the knock in EP5 that doesn't involve "everyone there is lying": The trick is that the knock wasn't actually at midnight (someone set the clock forward or back a few minutes), so all the 24:00 stuff from Lambda is just a distraction.

I don't agree with most of his ideas, including these, but I have to admit he saw some interesting angles that I didn't see.
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