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Old 2012-05-25, 03:34   Link #28981
Drifloon
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Huh, that thing about the knock is cool. Never heard that one before.
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Old 2012-05-25, 04:34   Link #28982
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
This isn't absolutely true. Technically, only corpses can't be misidentified. That still allows non-corpses to be misidentified as corpses.
Wow. That's right, isn't it? I'm impressed. There are so many loopholes in the games. I have to wonder how many Ryukishi put there on purpose.
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Old 2012-05-25, 07:32   Link #28983
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Wow. That's right, isn't it? I'm impressed. There are so many loopholes in the games. I have to wonder how many Ryukishi put there on purpose.
That loophole was actually known and is described in the games plot. So its not like some of the other ones that end up being holes. This one is actually there on purpose.

If it applies to all the games, then you could infer that if a person doubts that a person is dead by looking at its "corpse" then chances are that the "corpse" really isn't a corpse. So Erika (with meta knowledge) could deduce that none of the people in EP6s first twilight were actually dead.

Battler actually doubts that the servants in the shed were dead in EP4. It isn't until he spots George that he convinces himself that they were dead. But its not until he actually goes into the shed that he confirms that they are dead. Maybe there are more instances were this can be used.
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Old 2012-05-25, 23:01   Link #28984
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I have said it before and I will say it again, Ryu is sneaky. For anyone who has been devouring the newest Ep 3 manga release like I have, you may have seen his hint dropping/mild cheating.

The reds were (the twilight is over by now):
- 6 people are dead: lists all servants
- They "instantly" in that when they were hit they could not act (however admitted this was not the full meaning of the word and that they may have taken time to actually pass)
- Nobody is hiding in the six rooms (but not that there was not someone there in plain sight, such as Beato in someone's body I guess)
- None committed suicide (though would not say all were murdered)
- and was going to say none died by accident, but apparently that would have messed her up

From this you can see he was getting at the fact Shannon and kanon were laying there "dead" or sort of dying I guess, in that they were unable to act, but were not really dead.
What I was wondering is why you guys thought she couldn't say murdered (my theory is because then she would also have to redefine murdered, which would look sus, while redefining dead looked like it suited the situation) and also if anyone knows how KnowsNoMore got through this one without Shkannon?
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Old 2012-05-25, 23:46   Link #28985
Jan-Poo
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There's always the "boiler room back door" trick.

Alternatively if you don't like that, you can always say that the killer pretended to retrieve a key from one of the bodies, while it's been in his pocket all along.

I don't think there's ever been any red stating the whereabouts of all the keys involved in this twilight.
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Old 2012-05-26, 02:40   Link #28986
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
What I was wondering is why you guys thought she couldn't say murdered
Sorry to disappoint, but the reason is quite simple and straitforward when you look at the list of victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think there's ever been any red stating the whereabouts of all the keys involved in this twilight.
At the end of EP4, regarding EP3, First Twilight:
All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!
The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!


'Course, Battler counters with a blue that the keys could have been planted by one of the discoverers when they arrived on the scene, and Beatrice accepts it as though what she just said in red doesn't deny that possibility. It's really one of those WTF Umineko logic moments.
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Old 2012-05-26, 03:14   Link #28987
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There's always the "boiler room back door" trick.
And the manga retconned that by having Rudolf mention it was jammed or something.

As for the list of victims, you are right, I hadn't considered that one. Though at least we know for sure he died of natural causes I guess.
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Old 2012-05-26, 04:52   Link #28988
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WTF Umineko logic moments.
You can wiggle out of that red a few ways (some more dubious than others), however I always just assumed Beato was happy to throw a game to a particularly good theory. Especially because if she gives too many reds Battler might eventually work out the truth.
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Old 2012-05-26, 17:12   Link #28989
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants!
The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!


'Course, Battler counters with a blue that the keys could have been planted by one of the discoverers when they arrived on the scene, and Beatrice accepts it as though what she just said in red doesn't deny that possibility. It's really one of those WTF Umineko logic moments.
I wonder if this can work:
Culprit X hid a key in an envelope and then, without being seen, once in one of the rooms, placed it in the pocket of a victim for it to be 'discovered' by someone else...

though I guess it's not important if it works or not as we know the solution is different.
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Old 2012-05-26, 18:20   Link #28990
unsuspectingvisitor
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
'Course, Battler counters with a blue that the keys could have been planted by one of the discoverers when they arrived on the scene, and Beatrice accepts it as though what she just said in red doesn't deny that possibility. It's really one of those WTF Umineko logic moments.
Well Beatrice can't deny that possibility because it's the only way for the chapel key to be place inside the boiler room after Kanon used it to enter the chapel.
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Old 2012-05-26, 18:53   Link #28991
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She never said WHICH of the 6 closed rooms the keys were locked in, Battler just needed to do more thinking.
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Old 2012-05-27, 06:28   Link #28992
Drifloon
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Who says the chapel was locked before Kanon entered?
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Old 2012-05-27, 08:55   Link #28993
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Yeah Ryu mentioned that in an interview, I forgot it mattered because the master key doesn't work on that lock. Though Kanon can't have killed off his body in there until later (if at all, I can't remember) or the game wouldn't work
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Old 2012-05-27, 09:06   Link #28994
Jan-Poo
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Well I guess that in the end the real trick behind EP3 first twilight is that one of the "corpses" they found wasn't actually a corpse.

Whether Kanon and Shannon are the same person or not it would work just the same.
Even the personality death trick would work without shkanon, you just need to say that

(Yasu == Kanon) != Shannon
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Old 2012-05-28, 00:33   Link #28995
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Is Featherine the one responsible for Bern's original getting trapped in a logic error?

I remember from what little we heard about it, someone else had set up the situation and left it to Bern when they got bored of it or something? So she had to find her way out on her own, and it was a 'miracle' that she ever managed to do it and etc.

Since Bern was Featherine's Miko in the past, does that mean Featherine was the one responsible for Bern's troubled past? I'm not sure if there is any canon material on the subject, but I would be interested to hear people's speculative opinions on the matter.
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Old 2012-05-28, 07:07   Link #28996
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I think it is pretty much said that Featherine was playing Lamba and created a logic error (from the scenario seems likely she stated that Rika and all of her friends would survive in red) and left Bern to figure it out. Or a cat. Or something....
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Old 2012-05-28, 07:18   Link #28997
Jan-Poo
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It would seem logical to think that's how it is. The first time they met Bern really showed a blatant displeasure in seeing Featherinne. Whatever happened at the time Bern was Featherinne's Miko, it certainly wasn't anything pleasant for the former. So it's easy to connect the dots.

EP8 also provides ground for the hypothesis that Ikuko created the character Bernkastel after her cat. And since Featherinne is the Meta version of Ikuko then by extension Featherinne created Bernkastel.

The idea that Featherinne is the creator of Bernkastel and Lambda is again supported twice in EP8, first during the fight against Lambda where Featherinne writes a scenario for Lambda (against which Lambda can't do anything), and then in the introduction of the Tea party where Featherinne is described as if she is the author of the whole story (and sort of acts like an avatar of Ryuukishi himself).

So well I adhere to this interpretation, but as anything within Umineko, nothing is confirmed.
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Old 2012-05-28, 20:24   Link #28998
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I'm a "Witches of Higurashi" fan, but I'm not quite sure what was meant every time they talked about their birth or trials. Remember back in EP2, Bern said she was trapped in Lambda's world, no mention about being trapped in a logic error until EP6, and being trapped in Featherine's world until EP7.

Jan-Poo, I do like your idea about Bern just being Ikuko's cat, which would make sense looking at Umineko by itself, but adding Ikuko into it while talking about Higurashi would make Higurashi seem...weird. Maybe she just named Bern after a character of one of her favorite mystery novels. Also, if Meta and Tea Parties were a part of the bottles/forgeries, then Bernkastel wouldn't have been in EP1 and EP2 if it was just a character based on Ikuko's cat. Of course there's the stance that Meta and/or Tea Parties are *not* a part of the bottles/forgeries which then makes my argument about that completely void.

All we can be sure of is that When They Cry, Lambdadelta and Bernkastel will meet again.
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Old 2012-05-29, 04:38   Link #28999
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Now now, I don't remember seeing that in red
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Old 2012-05-29, 06:57   Link #29000
Jan-Poo
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@RandomAvatarFan

Well we know that Ikuko has been writing stories before meeting Tohya. What if in the universe of Umineko Ikuko wrote "Higurashi no Naku koro ni" giving to one of the characters the same name she gave to her cat?

If you think it that way, then the Bernkastel of Umineko would be both Ikuko's cat and Higurashi's Bernkastel.
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