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Old 2012-06-21, 13:37   Link #29241
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
IIRC it was the Rokkenjima victims themselves who were the supposed senders, not their relatives.
I don't have ep 4 installed on the computer I'm on right now, but I do have a copy of the script that someone gave me. Unless the version I was given is wrong, it's fairly clear that the sender was supposed to be the relative and not the Rokkenjima victim. I suppose I'll check on this later.

Quote:
"It was very curious. The sender was made out to be me, but I had no memory of it. Someone had faked my name and sent it.
The destination was Rebun Island in Hokkaido. ......Excluding the Northern Territories, it is at the northernmost tip of Japan. The recipient was apparently a residence on Rebun Island, but........., the name was my father's.
......However, it seemed that there was a problem with the destination address, so it was stamped as Address Unknown, and returned to the sender, 'me'."
Quote:
The same envelope and contents had been sent to Kumasawa's son, who had once lived with her.
But he had been very busy in the days since, and seemed to have forgotten about it while running around all over the place.

But apparently, its strange contents had stayed in his memory, and he remembered as soon as Ange told him about it......
After a bit of a wait, his thin-lipped wife found the envelope, complaining that he always forgot where he put things right away......
The modus operandi for the sender and recipient was the same as Nanjo's son's one.

The sender was made out to be Kumasawa's son, and the recipient was Kumasawa Chiyo.
Quote:
......I've remembered......!!

A strange envelope was also sent to me..., 12 years ago...!!

After losing my entire family, I was depressed.
...But it was a really strange thing to come in the mail, so I had a faint memory of it left.
It was a strange letter, which I had no memory of sending, but which had me as the sender.

I forget the destination address, but the person it had been sent to was Ushiromiya Rudolf.
It was my father.
I remember how disturbed I was when I got a letter I thought was from Father, opened it up, and found a key and a card that I didn't really understand.

I had felt let down, and threw it away somewhere, I think...
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Old 2012-06-21, 14:18   Link #29242
Asuka0NK
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Looking through the relevant section of ep 4 again, the letters puzzle me even more in regard to my own ideas of what may have happened.

You see, checking ep 4, I see that in each case with the letters, they were sent to the relevant person (such as Nanjo) but to a made-up address. The intention was clearly to have the letters being returned to the sender.

However, the sender in each case was falsely identified as a relative of the person who had been on Rokkenjima. For Nanjo, it was Nanjo's son. For Rudolf, it was Ange. This suggests rather strongly that Yasu was aware in advance of being cut off by the typhoon that people might be killed en masse on that island. And probably also that Ange wasn't going to be going there because of being ill. I wonder if there is something which can explain that in a way that makes it seem she wasn't aware of the danger? (Anybody got an idea? Although I suppose we could try to say "that never really happened in Rokkenjima Prime")

And if Yasu wanted to find out the addresses of the family and servants, I'm sure it would have been easy for her to do so without letting them know that she wants to send them something. The addresses are probably listed somewhere the servants can get to them. Certainly, Genji would know them, and Genji would give them to Yasu if she asked.
Remember we are talking about the same girl who thought she was so below everyone else that she wouldn't even call Battler. She may have wanted to keep it anonymous. Also it wouldn't be that hard to know in advance that a typhoon was coming. Also it is very possible for Yasu to have known that Ange was sick remember when Jessica received a phone call in Ep 5 about Battler. Jessica may have told Shannon and thus she may have known that it was possible that something was going to go wrong at the conference if George knew.

Also pretty much Ep 6 is what really solidifies George Culprit Theory in my mind. He craves attention, he craves love, he is a lonely sad person. In fact going back and reading Ep 6 "The Lovers" though it is supposed to be a cute scene when you realize there ages it is mildly creepy. Such as when George talks about how envious he was of Battler and Jessica he says to Shannon
"I just assumed that you liked me, and even had some childish fantasy that we might end up dating. I one-sidely felt as though my girlfriend had been stolen from me and I let myself feel hurt." Now I will again remind you that to George's knowledge Shannon was 10 and he was 17. So now let me re-go over this. George is a person who looks down on himself, he is very jealous of Battler, Shannon is the first and only girl he has ever been close too, and she was taken away by Battler. This seems like a huge combination that will spell out tragedy. And here is yet another reason George would pull off the Epitaph murders and that is the lines of the epitaph themselves

One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.

Although the main focus is the third prize. George may have in his grief wandering the mansion and came upon the epitaph where he read this line.
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Old 2012-06-21, 20:46   Link #29243
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I don't see why fantasy scenes can't be used as hints toward the personality of a character. I'm pretty sure Ryukishi has said they're supposed to be used as hints anyway instead of just being cast aside.
By "false dilemma" I don't mean to dismiss fantasy scenes; they're certainly a valid way to interpret the characters, IMO. So, sure it's indicated that he would sacrifice everything for Shannon, if need be. What I'm saying, though, is that even in the context of that fantasy scene George's answer was still only to a hypothetical question. Why the hell would George actually need to, or think he needs to, murder his whole family for Shannon!?

It's just as ridiculous as Yasu murder-ritual-for-Battler culprit theory, and for the exact same reasons. Except it's still inferior since YMRFBCT, as dumb as it is, at least has a shit-ton more evidence.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I don't have ep 4 installed on the computer I'm on right now, but I do have a copy of the script that someone gave me. Unless the version I was given is wrong, it's fairly clear that the sender was supposed to be the relative and not the Rokkenjima victim. I suppose I'll check on this later.
I stand corrected.
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Old 2012-06-21, 23:12   Link #29244
Golden Bug-Hunter
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The only major problem I have with this is that you seem to have forgotten about Kyrie shooting Rosa.
Huh? Rosa still had the only readied gun... oh I see what you mean. Hmmm...

Maybe a trick where the first round or two in a gun is 'live' and the rest are blanks? Ah, it's a bit harder than I thought it was...
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Old 2012-06-22, 04:43   Link #29245
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Ikuko has a backstory
To be fair, we learned that backstory from her. Also We aren't supposed to be able to solve the story with new characters.

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1 year later" though, when Yasu would have already gone with George?
I'd always forgotten about the later bit, but I think the incident would have occurred on the same day no matter when Battler returned.

Also I had never done the math to work out how creepy George's love of young Shannon was....
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Old 2012-06-22, 04:45   Link #29246
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Then again, Ryu's characters are mostly ok with incest so whatever.

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By "false dilemma" I don't mean to dismiss....Shannon
I never too that answer too seriously, I always just assumed it was a way for George to sound cool before giving an answer that allowed him to kill GAAP. After all, it is one of the few times he seems in on whatever game people think they are playing, and one of the few times he says anything cool. Coincidence?
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Old 2012-06-22, 04:50   Link #29247
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I'd always forgotten about the later bit, but I think the incident would have occurred on the same day no matter when Battler returned.
The only incident I can think of happening the same day if Battler didn't return would be Shannon, George and Kanon's sudden disappearance or something. After all, Yasu had already decided to accept George's proposal. Then again, we can't be sure if she intended to confess the truth about her\himself or not. Either way, even eloping with George bore the risk of bringing about an unpleasant outcome.
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Old 2012-06-22, 05:09   Link #29248
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Remember we are talking about the same girl who thought she was so below everyone else that she wouldn't even call Battler. She may have wanted to keep it anonymous. Also it wouldn't be that hard to know in advance that a typhoon was coming. Also it is very possible for Yasu to have known that Ange was sick remember when Jessica received a phone call in Ep 5 about Battler. Jessica may have told Shannon and thus she may have known that it was possible that something was going to go wrong at the conference if George knew.
So under your theory she sent them to everyone as an anonymous thanks for always being there for her (but did not send them to the servants who weren't on the island for the conference), wanted to keep it anonymous so faked the senders/didn't know the recipients' addresses but did know things like their relatives' names (and possibly addresses, depending on the Japanese postal system) and already thought at that time that George might kill people?

I think there's a problem with keeping it anonymous from everyone involved, because for people who knew she was the new family head, they would easily be able to guess who sent the money to them. Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo would certainly know. The cards inside the letters were written distinctively in Beatrice's handwriting too.

It's hard to think of all the people on the island that day as being people Yasu was thankful to for always being there for her, since, well, they weren't. Gohda wasn't nice to Shannon and Kanon. Most of the family members on the island (Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Eva, etc) were people she won't have known well and wouldn't have had support from. On the other hand, she was someone able to get attached to others just from a once a year meeting. And she wasn't the type to bear grudges. If she was going to send cash as thanks to everyone she knew (including Gohda), wouldn't she have sent it to the servants who weren't on duty at the time too, rather than the ones on the island on that day? I can't help thinking that it must have been connected to what happened on Rokkenjima in some way.

George definitely sounds suspicious at times in Umineko. On the other hand, maybe he's too suspicious. Still, it's hard to think of many reasons why he would kill everyone. I think Jan-Poo's suggestion that he might have gone mad after killing Shannon or her committing suicide holds some merit. In cold blood, it's hard to imagine what he stood to gain from killing absolutely everyone.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I stand corrected.
Did I sound snippy earlier? If so it wasn't intended.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I'd always forgotten about the later bit, but I think the incident would have occurred on the same day no matter when Battler returned.
If the trigger was George's impending marriage proposal meaning that there had to be a good old fashioned battle royale between Shannon and Kanon, that's true, it would have had to take place on that day regardless of Battler. Shannon was expecting it.
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Old 2012-06-22, 11:03   Link #29249
Renall
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There's no reason to premeditate the murder of every person on the island that is actually even remotely rational. There just isn't. No matter the plan, no matter a person's awareness of the existence of a huge explosive or not, no matter the motive, it's impossible to get away with it. So short of an overly-elaborate mass-murder/suicide (which is insanity and thus not satisfying as a motive), there really isn't any reason why any person would kill every other person.

However, when looking at a Prime culprit theory, consider a reason why someone might want to kill some other person. After all, it's entirely possible the "culprit" of Prime, if there was one, didn't intend to murder every person. They may very well have only intended to kill one person, and maybe not even before they actually arrived on the island. And there's no indication that anybody died at all up to the point of the explosion, other than Eva's behavior... and Eva could just as easily want to cover up one murder as one dozen murders, so her behavior only suggests she's concerned about something being revealed.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:36   Link #29250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
If the trigger was George's impending marriage proposal meaning that there had to be a good old fashioned battle royale between Shannon and Kanon, that's true, it would have had to take place on that day regardless of Battler. Shannon was expecting it.
We have to remember that this is not the only thing that was given a deadline by 1986.
The death of Kinz˘ would have also come to light and it would surely at least have led to a scandal. Maybe people wouldn't get killed over it, though I wouldn't bet my money on anybody from that family if it came to that, but at least there'd be an "incident" to speak of. Probably the family would have covered up Kinz˘'s death either way, because their share of the inheritance would have been in danger...

Oh my, speaking of inheritance, there was none without the gold. Krauss' investments basically left the household broke if not in serious debts. Making it appear as if Kinz˘ died would have been the only way to collect any life insurance and escape that situation in case no gold was found.

We have to remember that at least Eva and Kyrie already suspected Kinzo's death during the conference in '85. There is no way that they would have let this situation of not being able to meet with him slide way after '86.
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Old 2012-06-22, 12:55   Link #29251
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Oh my, speaking of inheritance, there was none without the gold. Krauss' investments basically left the household broke if not in serious debts. Making it appear as if Kinz˘ died would have been the only way to collect any life insurance and escape that situation in case no gold was found.

We have to remember that at least Eva and Kyrie already suspected Kinzo's death during the conference in '85. There is no way that they would have let this situation of not being able to meet with him slide way after '86.
True, a lot of things would have been coming to a head at that conference. With the tension over that, and Battler coming back, and maybe a fake murder game, it would have been very tense. (Unless they really were just having a Halloween party...)

I was looking at the info on Our Confession earlier, and in that one when Krauss and Natsuhi were being forced into playing the fake murder game, told that if they complied their family would be safe and they would get lots of money but the island would be blown up, Krauss thought to himself that that would be a good situation in regard to Kinzo's death. It would cover the death up and let them get the life insurance. (I love Our Confession! So much detail on Beato getting those two to comply with her plans.)
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Old 2012-06-22, 21:09   Link #29252
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Did anyone also notice in Ep 7 George was the only one who Will didn't use his ability on.
Well, he didn't use it all, almost. Only used it Jessica on accident - I assume Bern pushed a button somewhere because she enjoyed that part of the story. XD

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
The only incident I can think of happening the same day if Battler didn't return would be Shannon, George and Kanon's sudden disappearance or something. After all, Yasu had already decided to accept George's proposal. Then again, we can't be sure if she intended to confess the truth about her\himself or not. Either way, even eloping with George bore the risk of bringing about an unpleasant outcome.
So, about the day'
1. Battler returns in 1985, she isn't too serious with George yet. No drama.
2. Battler returns in 1986, lolexplosion.
3. Battler returns in 1987, she's already married to George. No drama.

Do note that all endings end in an exchange that goes like "What about Jessica?" "...what about who?

Also, I believe Ryu said in an interview once that Shannon wasn't really going to "confess" anything, per se', but rather ... let George inevitably figure it out. The part that makes you go "aww" is that she really really really worried about it, but Ryu claims George probably wouldn't have minded. And they would adopt or something, I guess.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
We have to remember that this is not the only thing that was given a deadline by 1986.
The death of Kinz˘ would have also come to light and it would surely at least have led to a scandal. Maybe people wouldn't get killed over it, though I wouldn't bet my money on anybody from that family if it came to that, but at least there'd be an "incident" to speak of. Probably the family would have covered up Kinz˘'s death either way, because their share of the inheritance would have been in danger...

Oh my, speaking of inheritance, there was none without the gold. Krauss' investments basically left the household broke if not in serious debts. Making it appear as if Kinz˘ died would have been the only way to collect any life insurance and escape that situation in case no gold was found.

We have to remember that at least Eva and Kyrie already suspected Kinzo's death during the conference in '85. There is no way that they would have let this situation of not being able to meet with him slide way after '86.
Well, putting aside that 1986 isn't really a "deadline" for exposing Kinzo's death, it's as you say - the siblings are pretty much willing to ignore Krauss's crimes if he'd acquiesce a bit with his attitude. It's also my opinion that when Krauss is described as broke, he's being called broke relative to how wealthy the family USUALLY is. I mean, he still has enough money to pay 7-ish servants, maintain the house, and put on some superficial airs, presumably.
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Old 2012-06-22, 21:18   Link #29253
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also come to light and it would surely at least have led to a scandal.
Except the scene with Claire and Will doesn't really seem to be talking about that, it seems more personally related to Claire.

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it's impossible to get away with it.
Unless there actually was a (highly unlikely) mass murder, in which case they totally did. Though a theme from almost all four first games is that the killer can only get away with something like this is if they are thought to be dead, or actually are dead.

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So much detail on Beato getting those two to comply with her plans
Very much needed info, when you take into account their personalities and situation.
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Old 2012-06-22, 21:51   Link #29254
Asuka0NK
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, he didn't use it all, almost. Only used it Jessica on accident - I assume Bern pushed a button somewhere because she enjoyed that part of the story. XD
What I mean is that George is the only cousin who Will doesn't use it on accident or not. He used it on both Maria and Jessica but not George.
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Old 2012-06-22, 22:03   Link #29255
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On an unrelated note, there is a theory I have been tossing around but haven't developed yet. I don't know if it has bee said yet, but in terms of what Angie read in the diary I still think there are more things it could contain than her parents being the killers. Yes we've all mentioned truly knowing no-one would come back, and I'd even thrown in knowing nothing, but I think it doesn't have to say her parents started killing people to say the incident was her parents' fault.

We know Kyrie and Eva suspected that Kinzo was dead, and in most games the siblings make an evil extortion/money grab plan that sort of goes badly (I'm looking at you episode 7), and we also know that Eva still seems to feel pretty guilty about the whole incident. So basically I am saying I wonder if the book mentions that Kyrie and Rudolf's money grubbing plan didn't lead to the incident? Maybe the plans did involve Battler and the epitaph, and maybe they all ended up in the gold room. Maybe Battler (often being shown as disgusted by greed in general in a few episodes) walked out with/without Shannon. Why Eva would be the one to go looking for them is the only thing I can't quite swing, so probably she didn't.
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Old 2012-06-22, 22:28   Link #29256
Asuka0NK
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There is another thing I've been wondering. Has anyone noticed that the 3 Beatrice's names spell out Evangelion. I wonder if this has any meaning or if it is just a coincidence.
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Old 2012-06-22, 23:13   Link #29257
AuraTwilight
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It's a coincidence. Ryukishi has himself stated he didn't notice it.
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Old 2012-06-23, 00:20   Link #29258
Wanderer
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On an unrelated note, there is a theory I have been tossing around but haven't developed yet. I don't know if it has bee said yet, but in terms of what Angie read in the diary I still think there are more things it could contain than her parents being the killers. Yes we've all mentioned truly knowing no-one would come back, and I'd even thrown in knowing nothing, but I think it doesn't have to say her parents started killing people to say the incident was her parents' fault.
Well, you remember all the scenes that appeared when Ange reads the Book of Single Truth? Apparently there was originally a slide in there with Kyrie pointing a gun that was edited out at some point (as well as a slide with an upset-faced George).

I think it was Jan-Poo who posted the original sequence... or maybe it was someone else.
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Old 2012-06-23, 01:32   Link #29259
AuraTwilight
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Clearly Kyrie was practicing self defense and George was upset that she had figured out his murderous scheme.
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Old 2012-06-23, 02:06   Link #29260
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Well, you remember all the scenes that appeared when Ange reads the Book of Single Truth
Sadly I do not. Not even a little bit. Except for the goats in the school girl outfit that is.
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