AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-11-08, 12:38   Link #2921
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
Hello everyone, I'm up to episode 4 as of the moment and been poking around for some theories. In another board, this was being kicked around and realized it does actually fit pretty well into events so far:



Now, I realize the above theory isn't exactly new, given the sheer number of theorizing taking place, but what I want to know is what pokes holes in this theory? Specifically, what other events make the theory unlikely, or another theory more likely in its place? I've heard Shannon = Beatrice is equally likely, can anyone explain it? Any red truths that contradict it, or any ways to stretch the red truth so fit, for example. (i.e. in ep. 3, "Ushiromiya Jessica did not commit murder" may not apply to a separate being calling itself "Beatrice", etc...).

This theory has been bugging me for a while, given it actually does make sense to me given what I know (and if I know anything, its going to be wrong somewhere). Help a guy be at ease.
I think rogerpepitone explained already the problems in your theory, for the rest Jessica being Beatrice is very likely to be true, though I don't think she's the murderer. She has alibi most of the times and if she's got a helper willing to do that many killings she might as well let them do all the dirty jobs.

The reason Shannon is also probable is because of what is shown in Episode5. It is hinted that between Battler and Beatrice there was some sort of crush in the past, and we know that Battler did have a crush on Shannon. The fact that this small mention was kept in the anime is suspicious enough.

Personally I'm not sure that Shannon is Beatrice but I feel pretty sure that the person Battler made a promise to was Shannon. There is also the fact that Shannon remained serving the family for all this time even though she was supposed to leave a lot earlier. Of all the fukuin children she's the one that has been serving the Ushiromiya for the longest time. This could hint that Shannon has been waiting for Battler and Ep5 confirms that Beatrice has been waiting for Battler for a long time.

When George asked Shannon why she's been working so long for the family Shannon has been kinda evasive with her answer.

Shannon remembers a lot of the Battler of 12 years before. She's the one who remembers him more clearly even among the cousins.

There are possible hints in the manga and the anime that Shannon feels troubled when George proposes to her.

Shannon willing to let Battler feel her breast. Just furniture complex? Shannon supposedly has overcome that complex in the last two years. She still can't refuse orders, but no one ordered her to let Battler do as he pleased with her body.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 12:40   Link #2922
Neofio3
Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: That's right... where DO I live?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
Maria may be naive but she's going to notice if somebody completely different has taken the Beatrice persona.
See that's where I disagree. Nothing Maria says she sees can be trusted. She's shown to be highly, highly impressionable. She has also been shown to view people as completely different individuals depending on how they act (i.e. Mama and the Bad Witch).

What's more, going by anti-fantasy, there is no "Beatrice" at all, and hence whoever has been taking on the role of Beatrice *is* Beatrice in Maria's eyes.

If Jessica has been roleplaying magic with Maria for some time, and acting as a witch in front of her, Maria might possibly view Beatrice as completely separate individual from Jessica, even if they are similar.
__________________
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
- Terry Pratchett

Last edited by Neofio3; 2009-11-08 at 12:54.
Neofio3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 12:48   Link #2923
Neofio3
Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: That's right... where DO I live?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
By the by, you might want to repost this theory over in the Episode 4 thread to get more feedback. This one is kind of a free-fire zone for spoilers, so most of the people who haven't read Episode 5 yet are avoiding it.
Okay, thanks! I'll do that (sometime later perhaps). I admit I've been skimming over posts with even the mere mention of episode 5.

And good stuff folks! I'm thinking of other means of support or alternate theories. Admittedly, I know very little on theories for who is apparently our other most likely suspect (Shannon).
__________________
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
- Terry Pratchett
Neofio3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 13:07   Link #2924
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Spoiler for Misc, eps 1-4:
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 13:35   Link #2925
ameskitty
Kupo
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
See that's where I disagree. Nothing Maria says she sees can be trusted. She's shown to be highly, highly impressionable. She has also been shown to view people as completely different individuals depending on how they act (i.e. Mama and the Bad Witch).

What's more, going by anti-fantasy, there is no "Beatrice" at all, and hence whoever has been taking on the role of Beatrice *is* Beatrice in Maria's eyes.

If Jessica has been roleplaying magic with Maria for some time, and acting as a witch in front of her, Maria might possibly view Beatrice as completely separate individual from Jessica, even if they are similar.
If you believe that, that's fine, but I think I'll clarify what I was saying just in case.

Of course she's not going to know who the person dressing up as Beatrice is - Maria's impressionable, as you've said. But she's associated that disguise with Beatrice, even if she doesn't know who's really in it. So if somebody else dresses up as Beatrice, again even if she doesn't know who that other person dressing up is, I have a hard time believing that she wouldn't notice that there's something different about her Beatrice.

Again though if you can believe that possible, then go ahead and do so - it's not out of the realm of possibility, I admit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
That said, the amount of red devoted to preventing Jessica's supposed alternate personality from killing Nanjo was kind of odd.
I always attributed that to Eva-Beato being stupidly arrogant and cruel in trying to make Battler admit loss (compared to Beato who will often just say "maybe, maybe not" just to confuse Battler for later things), but I guess it's kind of strange if you look at it like that.
__________________

Avatar adapted from Yoshitaka Amano art

"There is no such thing as a sexy George." - Rhiannon, Easy A
ameskitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 13:39   Link #2926
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
Hello everyone, I'm up to episode 4 as of the moment and been poking around for some theories. In another board, this was being kicked around and realized it does actually fit pretty well into events so far:



Now, I realize the above theory isn't exactly new, given the sheer number of theorizing taking place, but what I want to know is what pokes holes in this theory? Specifically, what other events make the theory unlikely, or another theory more likely in its place? I've heard Shannon = Beatrice is equally likely, can anyone explain it? Any red truths that contradict it, or any ways to stretch the red truth so fit, for example. (i.e. in ep. 3, "Ushiromiya Jessica did not commit murder" may not apply to a separate being calling itself "Beatrice", etc...).

This theory has been bugging me for a while, given it actually does make sense to me given what I know (and if I know anything, its going to be wrong somewhere). Help a guy be at ease.
Holes I think I have found:

IN EP2, Jessica were declared dead in her room in the 2nd twilight and Kanon were declared as killed in the same room. As you just enlisted Nanjo as accomplice, that makes the 4-8 twilights unexplainable (particularly 6-7 ones).

In EP3, since Kanon was declared dead in the 1st twilight (who killed him?) and Jessica was with Battler almost all the time. Who staked Kyrie, Hideyoshi and Rudolf then? And who killed Nanjo in EP3? Why did so? Why the number on the door?

In EP4, who killed Jessica? If it was suicide, where was the weapon? And Kanon was declared the 9th to die, then who killed Kanon and why his body went missing? Why Kumasawa, Gohda, Krauss, and Kyrie said it was Kinzo's doing and he had accomplices?


What was the motive of Jessica of killing everyone (including her parents, even though according to your theory Krauss and Natsuhi were not her biological parents, they still had bringing up her. And were you suggesting that all the sorrow and anger displayed after her parents' death was faked?)? And how could the murders be prevented in the final ending?

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-08 at 13:51.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 13:45   Link #2927
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
In EP4, who killed Jessica? If it was suicide, where was the weapon?
A few days ago someone speculated that Maria could have been instructed to take the weapons and hide them somewhere. Then she committed suicide by drinking the poison.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 13:50   Link #2928
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
A few days ago someone speculated that Maria could have been instructed to take the weapons and hide them somewhere. Then she committed suicide by drinking the poison.
True. I just want to know if Neofio3 has answer to all these questions.


Personally, I buy the theory of Shannon being Beatrice than Jessica being Beatrice. Jessica was too hot-tempered and unsophisticated to be the mastermind.

Of course, I stick with my theory of Kyrie being Beatrice up to this point. Maybe I will change after I read EP5.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 14:40   Link #2929
Neofio3
Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: That's right... where DO I live?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Holes I think I have found:

IN EP2, Jessica were declared dead in her room in the 2nd twilight and Kanon were declared as killed in the same room. As you just enlisted Nanjo as accomplice, that makes the 4-8 twilights unexplainable (particularly 6-7 ones).
There are obviously multiple murderers (or groups of murderers), given the different killing styles present (Evatrice almost certainly is). Under the theory, in episode 2 the Jessica/Kanon alliance self-destructed, and another murderer took their place (Rosa due to paranoia, perhaps?).

Quote:
In EP3, since Kanon was declared dead in the 1st twilight (who killed him?) and Jessica was with Battler almost all the time. Who staked Kyrie, Hideyoshi and Rudolf then? And who killed Nanjo in EP3? Why did so? Why the number on the door?
Thanks for everyone noting Kanon being confirmed dead in the 1st twilight, which I overlooked. However, it doesn't exclude Jessica setting things in motion, just her missing a possible accomplice. There is still another potential accomplice (Nanjo), who may have been killed by another supposedly "dead" person, who then died him/herself shortly afterward (Kyrie, Rudolf, or Hideyoshi, perhaps?)

As to the number, I don't think there's any good theory for that yet.

Quote:
In EP4, who killed Jessica? If it was suicide, where was the weapon? And Kanon was declared the 9th to die, then who killed Kanon and why his body went missing? Why Kumasawa, Gohda, Krauss, and Kyrie said it was Kinzo's doing and he had accomplices?
Possible suicide. Under the theory, Jessica called Battler ahead of time and told him she was going to die. She meets Battler as "Beatrice" at the window and expects the promise, then when disappointed he doesn't remember, kills herself to appear exactly as she said she would.

The clothes mortal "Beatrice" was wearing at the time (and indeed all times we see her) may be a clue, given the spitting similarity between them and the clothes Jessica wears. Really, the only difference between them is the small cross pattern and that Beatrice wears her jacket open. Same jacket color, same shirt, same tie, same skirt, same uniform type and general dimensions. I think it's important that the Beatrice Battler sees in that window is the mortal Beatrice, and not "witch" Beatrice, who wears an elaborate dress.

As to what makes the murder weapon disappear, there's Jan-Poo's theory.

"Kinzo" already being revealed as a possible title (and hence Jessica, if Kinzo actually believed was the reincarnation of Beatrice, would be a prime candidate). What's more, there's even talk of headship bypassing the adults completely and going to the children.

Quote:
What was the motive of Jessica of killing everyone (including her parents, even though according to your theory Krauss and Natsuhi were not her biological parents, they still had bringing up her. And were you suggesting that all the sorrow and anger displayed after her parents' death was faked?)? And how could the murders be prevented in the final ending?
The theory is that Jessica is insane (due to family circumstances, like rape), and a separate personality, "Beatrice" is killing everyone, at least some of the time. This Beatrice has motive, means, and opportunity. This would also mean that the sorrow Jessica showed over her parents and Kanon would not be faked, but completely genuine, as she would have no idea she's doing these things. As to Jessica lacking the intelligence to plan these things, I wouldn't assume the intelligence of anyone so quickly. Rosa's been shown to be smarter than she lets on, for example. And if we bring Higurashi as an example, nobody would have guessed Shion was smart enough to do the things she pulled.

As to how to prevent the final ending, there is another theory that whatever the circumstances of the murders, nothing will change and everyone will die - that is, if you stay in the mansion up till a certain point, you will inevitably be "lost and sent to hell". In episode 3, Eva escaped this because she was in Kuwadorian. In episode 4, Battler still died, despite being the only one left alive in the island. Also, despite the massive amounts of evidence against Eva in episode 3 (any decent inspection by police would find it), there's apparently no evidence to be found.

Given the storm, there is the possibility of a massive tidal wave, or maybe an avalanche (given in 1998, Ange has trouble getting to the mansion "because of a past avalanche"). So possibly, not only must the family find and deal with the culprits, they must also identify the incoming threat and act on it in time.
__________________
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
- Terry Pratchett

Last edited by Neofio3; 2009-11-08 at 15:10.
Neofio3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 15:13   Link #2930
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neofio3 View Post
There are obviously multiple murderers (or groups of murderers), given the different killing styles present (Evatrice almost certainly is). Under the theory, in episode 2 the Jessica/Kanon alliance self-destructed, and another murderer took their place (Rosa due to paranoia, perhaps?).


Given the storm, there is the possibility of a massive tidal wave, or maybe an avalanche (given in 1998, Ange has trouble getting to the mansion "because of a past avalanche). So possibly, not only must our heroes find and deal with the culprits, they must also identify the incoming threat and act on it in time.
So far so good. But what I was asking was how Battler would prevent Jessica and Kanon killing all, not about how everyone could escape from the death fate at the end of 5th Oct (in fact, throughout the episodes, even though everyone died in the end, they may not have the same cause. An argument is that probably no natural disaster would reduce human bodies into pieces of fresh as in EP1, so if what happened in EP4 was natural disaster, then what happened in EP1 could not be)

Nanjo acting as executor in EP3 was incompatible with the fact that he was killed in the end (given your small set of culprits). Certainly only Kyrie, Hideyoshi would have killed Nanjo if their wound were true, but remeber that previously Eva, George, Battler and Nanjo had been the mansion and Nanjo checked the bodies. If indeed Nanjo was the one who tried to kill Kyrie's group, he would ascertain they were dead when they checked the bodies. (I suppose even though the specialty of Nanjo was not forensic medicine, he could tell someone was dead or not). Then it left nobody being able to kill Nanjo in the end as red texts stated that no action from Eva, Battler and Jessica would result in Nanjo's death while all other people were either declared dead or confirmed dead by Nanjo (if he was the killer).

Besides, you have not accounted for the number on the door.

In EP2, you said another group of murderers were in action after Jessica's group died. You need to articulate very clearly what happened as that group of murders you mention should be also working in other episodes unless you could show that that group of murderers were formed during EP2, not before the game was started.

I don't understand your account for Kumasawa and Gohda mentioning of Kinzo's accomplices. As we know, Jessica was in the guesthouse during that period of time and if Jessica was Kinzo, then no one could see her at all.

(In fact, all theories saying someone other than Kinzo (as the siblings' father) had become Kinzo while showing up in the dining room suffered from one common fatal mistake: in EP4, Battler's understanding of Kinzo being murderer was that his grandfather was killing people, even though people in the dining room could know someone had become Kinzo, when they told Battler about it, they must use the name that Battler understood (so if Jessica has become Kinzo in EP4, when the people told Battler what happened, they must say Jessica was killing people and she has become Kinzo. Merely saying Kinzo was killing people while hearing Battler understanding it as his grandfather killing people was an impossible scenario. It is an argument from common sense and rationality. Of course this could get around, but definitely not the theory that someone becoming Kinzo showing up in the dining room)

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-08 at 15:24.
ijriims is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 15:20   Link #2931
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
Save of course that Kinzo is dead.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 15:51   Link #2932
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Is Piece-Beatrice necessarily involved in the murders, or could she be an innocent accomplice or even a convenient scapegoat?

(Reread the letter from the beginning. Nothing in it mentions death; they only treat it as such after the first twilight.)

Spoiler for Shannon:


OTOH, K1's sin in Watanagashi-hen / Meakashi-hen is indirectly related; it only planted the seeds that ultimately led to the events. I think Battler's sin was similarly outwardly minor and it was only in retrospect that she realized its importance.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 16:12   Link #2933
Geekodot
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
I think there is a plot among the adults to kill according to the epitaph. Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi can be in on it because they want to force Kinzo to reveal the gold by threatening him with murders like that. Krauss and Natsuhi might be in on it because it is a good opportunity to get rid of Rudolf, Eva and Rosa and get the inheritance for themselves. Krauss and Natsuhi can also have Genji and Nanjo on their side.

The idea of such a plot can be backed by for example Rudolf in ep 1 knowing that he might die (knowing that something is going on) and how the 6 closed rooms in ep 3 can easily be explained if all the adults were in on the crime.

The reason for each arc to actually end up like it does is because during the "discussion" between the siblings during the night, different adults survive as the mastermind of that arc.

In the first arc, Natsuhi survives having killed the others (except for Eva and Hideyoshi who left early) and hidden them in the shed. She is having Kanon burn Kinzo's corpse and having Genji kill Eva and Hideyoshi in their room. Kanon lies about having discovered Eva and Hideyoshi with Genji so that no one will know that he burnt Kinzo's body. He later fakes his death in the boiler to get to talk to Nanjo and Nanjo lets Kanon escape. After everyone shuts themselves into the study, Genji (or Nanjo) plants the letter from Beatrice and Maria, Kumasawa, Nanjo and Genji is banished to the parlor. Kanon arrives the parlor, having aquired a Winchester and Genji who didn't know that Kanon was actually alive, suspects Kanon for having his own plan and tries to kill him. During the struggle, Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji end up dead while Kanon prepares a letter to lure the mastermind (Natsuhi) out on her own to kill her. He does this in order to guarantee Jessica and the others' safety and afterwards he escapes the island before the landslide destroys the mansion.

In the second arc, Rosa survives the "discussion" and prepares the scene in the chapel. Afterwards, she kills Kanon and Jessica with Genji and maybe Shannon (this is backed by Rosa saying they went to Kinzo, not knowing that Kinzo can't be in the study because he is dead). They hide Kanon's body in order to frame him (Rosa immediatly comes up with a Kanon culprit theory that Battler disproves because of the unexpected key). Genji later creates the lie that Kanon attacked them and convinced the other servants to go along. This was in order to make absolutely sure that Kanon is framed as the criminal.

In the third arc, the murders actually go as planned for the adults, and they all survive. However, Eva solves the riddle and finds the gold and therefore betrays the adults and commit the rest of the murders (except for Nanjo's murder which could've been done by for example George that everyone though was dead).

In the fourth arc, during the discussion many people die as usual and someone kidnaps the survivors to Kuwadorian (and lets Gohda and Kumasawa escape with a guarantee for their safety if they lie about everything being done with magic.
All the phone calls can be done if the kidnapper forces them to say what they say in the phone to guarantee the childrens' safety.

I also believe that the one responsible for the accident in all arcs is one of the servants that "shouldn't be on the island". This might be the one called Renon (which is a woman) and can therefore be the servant who represents Gaap. It also makes sense when Gaaps power is portals that the person X which could be anywhere at any time represents her. This person might have originally been a part of the initial plot, however she arrives too late (after the first twilight so that there is never more than 18 people) because of the Typhoon. She then rigs the landslide and escapes the island before it happens. In the fourth arc, she might even be the one playing "Beatrice" in front of Battler (after killing the "real" culprit in that arc).

I hadn't read Chiru when making this theory though, so I can't be sure that it fits in there too...
Geekodot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 16:36   Link #2934
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
Hmmmmm.

Some of that makes sense. Some of it doesn't...but only if one stays within the context of the red limitation of the number of people and Game 5's rules about mysteries.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 18:18   Link #2935
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Personally i put the four siblings at the bottom of my list. The reason is explained by Eva herself in Episode1

Performing a mass murder in such a condition is very stupid, Eva knows better than that, if she wanted to kill someone she would have made it so to make it look like an incident and she wouldn't have done it in a closed circle where the police could easily pinpoint the criminal among the survivors.

Then again there is that scene with Rosa and Eva in front of the gold. Both of them agreed that not even 10 tons of gold were worth the risk and all the problems that come after becoming a murderer. This is what they both agreed with their reason. Meaning that at least in their case there wasn't any murderous plan in the making.

The serial murder of Rokkenjima only make sense if the murderer isn't planning of surviving, because in such a situation it's hard to get out clean.
Eva wasn't charged of being an assassin probably because something happened that cleaned any proof, but for all the world she was a mass murderer. Eva is not stupid enough to not being able to foresee this, and neither is Rosa nor is Kyrie.

It might be possible that Natsuhi or Krauss killed someone out of desperation, but certainly not as a plan.

No the more I think about it if they planned on killing their relatives to become the only heirs they should have tried something else, and more than anything they should have created an alibi for themselves instead of placing themselves inside the crime scene.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 18:53   Link #2936
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Uwah, a zero-love theory.

Regarding Episode 1, Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers.

For Episode 3, how do you explain Kinzo's corpse in the first twilight with that theory? Revealing it to the other siblings is the absolute last thing Natsuhi wants to do, so how and why did it get into the locked room chain? And how is it possible that the siblings collaborated on setting up that chain without them finding out that Kinzo was dead?

Actually, that raises an even better question. Given that the chain supposedly consists of people that all of the siblings killed, what was the purpose of setting up that chain in the first place, especially if they were just going to open it back up later anyway?
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 19:24   Link #2937
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The serial murder of Rokkenjima only make sense if the murderer isn't planning of surviving, because in such a situation it's hard to get out clean.
Or if the actual mastermind isn't even on the island, and is instead working with people willing to kill themselves for whatever cause.

Just wanted to point that out. >_>
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 19:27   Link #2938
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Is Piece-Beatrice necessarily involved in the murders, or could she be an innocent accomplice or even a convenient scapegoat?

(Reread the letter from the beginning. Nothing in it mentions death; they only treat it as such after the first twilight.)

Spoiler for Shannon:


OTOH, K1's sin in Watanagashi-hen / Meakashi-hen is indirectly related; it only planted the seeds that ultimately led to the events. I think Battler's sin was similarly outwardly minor and it was only in retrospect that she realized its importance.
Red text confirms Beatrice killed Battler in episode 4. Is there a way for her to have done this without involving the "piece" version of herself? In my opinion, at the very minimum, Beatrice on the game board is responsible for the murders at the end of each episode.

In episode 1 why does Bernkastel talk directly to the readers and not to meta-Battler? In episode 5 he had the feeling that he seen them (Bernkastel and Lambdadelta) many times before.

Battler learned the truth without knowing anything about the world of 1998 or the messages in the bottles. I think this is also a big clue.

Finally, regarding Battler's sin I think that is a very good theory. However, if that theory is true then Shannon has nothing to do with the Beatrice deception since the sin is not between Battler and Beatrice.
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 19:39   Link #2939
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Red text confirms Beatrice killed Battler in episode 4. Is there a way for her to have done this without involving the "piece" version of herself? In my opinion, at the very minimum, Beatrice on the game board is responsible for the murders at the end of each episode.
How? Even assuming Shannon and/or Kanon survived in Ep1, they're most certainly dead by the end of Ep2, Ep3, and Ep4...

Battler is the only person left alive on the island at the end of Ep4... which means Beatrice must be referring to herself as something metaphorical in that red.

...Hmm. I wonder. Is there any kind of technology or chemicals available and well-known in 1986 that could destroy bodies like that?

...Lye? Beatrice is lye? >_>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
In episode 1 why does Bernkastel talk directly to the readers and not to meta-Battler? In episode 5 he had the feeling that he seen them (Bernkastel and Lambdadelta) many times before.
I don't see where you're going with this. I always thought she WAS talking to Meta-Battler, given what she says about "supporting him" later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Battler learned the truth without knowing anything about the world of 1998 or the messages in the bottles. I think this is also a big clue.
Battler got his free spiritual journey thing at the end of Ep5, which might have explained a few things... and it's entirely possible that he knows things that the readers do not.

The 1998 world might contain hints to what Battler knows that we don't. I wouldn't just discount that world entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Finally, regarding Battler's sin I think that is a very good theory. However, if that theory is true then Shannon has nothing to do with the Beatrice deception since the sin is not between Battler and Beatrice.
There are at least three individuals named Beatrice and at least two named Battler.

Which Battler and which Beatrice is that red referring to?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-11-08, 19:49   Link #2940
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
How? Even assuming Shannon and/or Kanon survived in Ep1, they're most certainly dead by the end of Ep2, Ep3, and Ep4...

Battler is the only person left alive on the island at the end of Ep4... which means Beatrice must be referring to herself as something metaphorical in that red.

...Hmm. I wonder. Is there any kind of technology or chemicals available and well-known in 1986 that could destroy bodies like that?

...Lye? Beatrice is lye? >_>
Battler is the only person left on the island and Beatrice killed him so that implies that Beatrice is not a person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't see where you're going with this. I always thought she WAS talking to Meta-Battler, given what she says about "supporting him" later on.
There's no confirmation either way, but in the anime it's pretty clear that Battler is not there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Battler got his free spiritual journey thing at the end of Ep5, which might have explained a few things... and it's entirely possible that he knows things that the readers do not.

The 1998 world might contain hints to what Battler knows that we don't. I wouldn't just discount that world entirely.
It's possible that he visited some 1998 worlds but we were never shown this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
There are at least three individuals named Beatrice and at least two named Battler.

Which Battler and which Beatrice is that red referring to?
I guess you can argue that she was talking about the sin not being between meta-Battler and meta-Beatrice but that makes it kind of pointless in my opinion.
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.