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Old 2012-06-28, 09:58   Link #29421
Renall
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well the issue may be resolved, if we look at Nanjo's death in Banquet... If ShKanonTrice is really dead since the 1st twilight, then Battler's blue truth in EP4 would be right... Until today it was never disproved, that someone killed Nanjo and died afterwards for some reason and was then deemed "dead" by Eva-Beatrice's red truth. If Battler's blue is wrong, then it means ShKanonTrice must be alive.
Or anyone else "died" in a non-physical manner.
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Old 2012-06-28, 10:21   Link #29422
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You understand how utterly ridiculous that is. "Oh, he's dead... but he can still appear, interact, and be blamed for things. He's just dead because I say so. You know, until I change my mind." Because apparently it is possible to change your mind and bring a character back for the shits of it, or to pose as them and act, behave, and think as them. But somehow still be "dead." And if you're going to tell me with a straight face that this is perfectly acceptable, I'm going to have to say you're behaving unreasonably.
The way you understood it, it is quite unreasonable, though I wouldn't call it unacceptable. But I meant it in a slightly different way.
What actually makes up Umineko's point concerning this is the fact that "an unobserved event stays in eternal process". What does this tell us about Shkannontrice? Because we can't be sure who that person wearing these personae actually is, a different persona is used for actions that would make it appear as if it is another person. You could basically have given a different sprite to Rosa once she goes mental on Maria and called that sprite "the evil witch Carmen".
Umineko is told to us from a perspective after the events but without certain knowledge of how the space between beginning and end was filled. The same goes for the characters which compose the entirety of "Yasu" and were divided into roles on the gameboard.

Actually they are not the only people who's life and death status is arbitrarily used depending on the narrative. Think of Kinz˘ in EP5. We know he is dead, basically everyone knows he's dead and yet we are entertaining the notion of "what if he wasn't dead".

I just think you are trying too hard to actually apply the notion of realism to the gameboards when they are more or less metaphorical representation that are maybe useful to reason towards reality but don't depict reality.
Of course you can solve them as a story, but I think it's too much too assume that any of the stories actually displayed what happened on Rokkenjima during those 2 days.

I'm actually entertaining the theory that there was no Shkannon on the island at all and trying to write a forgery around it myself. And I think it's important to distance oneself from the idea of trying to piece together reality from what the stories show us...reality should rather be deduced from what the stories tell us.
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Old 2012-06-28, 10:26   Link #29423
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The ideal translation in this circumstance would be to say "characters." "Character" is sufficiently vague as to potentially refer to the fact that they are physically dead people who happen to be characters in the story (which is true), but it could also suggest something like a fake murder game or even just a faked death in which the characters have been "killed."

This does open the door to the other First Twilight victims being alive, but it doesn't mean they have to be. You could put on a production of Julius Caesar where Caesar's actor is literally stabbed to death, but Brutus's actor dies a stage death. It would then be borderline acceptable to say Caesar and Brutus are dead. But you can't ever actually know which of the two is the case, so it would swing some doors wide open. That's just a consequence of the (supposedly intentional) imperfect definition.
It's all here, in the conversation between Lion and Will.

"So when Bernkastel asks us who killed Beatrice, she means who killed the kind person who pretended to be Beatrice?"

"That's close, but not quite. It's not the one who pretended. We're talking about two different people. ......In Maria's eyes, just like how her mother and the black witch are different people, Beatrice and the person who played that part are also different people.

It's just like Mariage Sorciere.

That was where one person would be the creator, and the other person would acknowledge those creations, thereby nurturing the illusion.

The Golden Witch Beatrice was also created by one person, and then nurtured when Maria acknowledged her.
"

"You mean, even if you killed the acted character, that doesn't mean you've killed the kind person who was playing her part?"

"Even if Beatrice's vessel is lost, that isn't the same as Beatrice being killed. ......It's easier to understand if we use a telephone as an example. Let's say I call you on the phone. From my perspective during the call, the phone is you, in the sense that it is what I talk to.

But what if I break the phone?
"

"......I see. If you kill the phone, you won't be able to talk to me, but that doesn't mean you've killed me."

"We know Maria once offered to let Beatrice possess her, early on in their relationship. That clearly shows that Beatrice did not look like the portrait at that time."

"So, if the person acting the part and the witch character they play are different people, ......we're talking about killing just the witch character itself. ......Is that even possible?"

"Only the actor can kill the character. In other words, the person who killed Beatrice is the person who played the part of Beatrice."

"You mean that the person who played witches with Maria-chan is the culprit Bernkastel's talking about?"

"That's it. .........But, as if this wasn't confusing enough, this chapel is now a world inside a cat box. The culprit is the cat. There are now two cats existing at the same time...one alive, and one dead."

(and Will goes on to explain that Lion is the dead cat)

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Or anyone else "died" in a non-physical manner.
Just because the interpretation makes it logically possible for anyone to die a non-physical "death" doesn't mean that they necessarily do. We don't have any reason to believe that anyone besides ShKanon work that way.
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:11   Link #29424
GreyZone
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Nice find Wanderer. Yes it shows very well the "system" of ShKanonTrice.
(But this also enforces my belief on Ikuko=Yasu again.)

Now that i think about it: Banquet of the golden witch proves that there is more than just Shanon, Kanon and Beatrice.

After the 1st twilight Shanon and Kanon are dead, but at the same time by the epitaph the witch Beatrice was not revived yet.
In other words: The culprit is and empty vessel until "the witch is revived again". It is later called "Yasu".
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Old 2012-06-28, 11:33   Link #29425
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I just think you are trying too hard to actually apply the notion of realism to the gameboards when they are more or less metaphorical representation that are maybe useful to reason towards reality but don't depict reality.
If they don't reflect reality, then Beatrice was right all along and the murders are sorcery. Beatrice's stories are fantastical and the message she is conveying does not need to be inherently realistic, but her culprit methodology does.
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Just because the interpretation makes it logically possible for anyone to die a non-physical "death" doesn't mean that they necessarily do. We don't have any reason to believe that anyone besides ShKanon work that way.
Actually, we have no reason to believe that anyone dies physically, because the only clear model the story advances for "death" relates to Shkanon, and "dead" equivocates Shannon and Kanon's deaths to that model. So it's actually the opposite of that.

The consequence of personality death, or character death, or actor death, or role death, or however you want to ascribe it is that we do not, in fact, know for certain that every single death wasn't just faked, at least to start with. There's a number of things which support this, even Our Confession suggests Beatrice manipulated individuals into faking death before really killing them. At what point in the storyline could Meta-Beatrice have declared those people dead? At the time they pretended to be dead, they were essentially entirely inactive right up to the point where they really died. Is there a difference between the actual biological death and the actor death if they're faking death right up to the point of the explosion? What if they get up, but only when no one is watching? Does it really make any difference?

It'd be easier to just say "dead" means "the person is now putting on the appearance of being dead" and leave it at that for all characters. This universality removes any issues of concern with Shkanon because it can simply be stated that at any time they are declared dead, it's because they've affected the appearance of death either physically or through established group knowledge. And the same is true of everyone else. That doesn't mean that they do get up and do something (although in Banquet it's at least a possibility and in End it's a near certainty), but they could.

Problem is, this would run afoul of End when it says that the corpses never moved "after death." This strongly suggests that two separate definitions of death are being used here. And that will never be acceptable under any circumstances. Nothing anybody can say is going to suddenly make that work.
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Old 2012-06-28, 12:06   Link #29426
Drifloon
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Sure it's okay to have multiple definitions of the word 'dead' in play.

Eva is dead. Shannon is dead. The phone line is dead.

You can infer what kind of 'death' is being referred to by looking at what is said to have 'died'.
A person dies a physical death.
A 'personality' dies a metaphorical/symbolic death.
A phone system 'dies' if it is no longer functional. And so on.
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Old 2012-06-28, 12:44   Link #29427
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Actually, we have no reason to believe that anyone dies physically, because the only clear model the story advances for "death" relates to Shkanon, and "dead" equivocates Shannon and Kanon's deaths to that model. So it's actually the opposite of that.
Yeah, actually I think this is true... and actually I think it's a pretty darned important hint for Murder Game Theory: Red has no literal bearing on reality, and even no literal bearing on the fictional reality being depicted in the various stories/forgeries (the "reality" of the "game" being a separate concept grafted over the "reality" of the stories/forgeries).

This is also what I mean when I've argued (poorly, I suppose) that Bern and Erika just made up their reds in EP5 and EP6 as they went along. All reds are simply "what-ifs" added to the original story that when taken as "truth" can form the rules of a kind of game. They don't tell you the actual story (which could just as well be a Fantasy).

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Problem is, this would run afoul of End when it says that the corpses never moved "after death." This strongly suggests that two separate definitions of death are being used here. And that will never be acceptable under any circumstances. Nothing anybody can say is going to suddenly make that work.
Passive form. The corpses were never moved after death.
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Old 2012-06-28, 13:14   Link #29428
Renall
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Sure it's okay to have multiple definitions of the word 'dead' in play.

Eva is dead. Shannon is dead. The phone line is dead.

You can infer what kind of 'death' is being referred to by looking at what is said to have 'died'.
A person dies a physical death.
A 'personality' dies a metaphorical/symbolic death.
A phone system 'dies' if it is no longer functional. And so on.
I was hoping someone would bring this argument up because it's really, really stupid. The reason a telephone line being "dead" works is because inanimate mechanical or electronic objects being "dead" when they are non-functional is a collectively-understood definition, in the same sense that you'd call a roadkilled squirrel or your great-great-grandma "dead" because it's collectively understood to mean a termination of biological life. If nobody ever used one of those particular definitions, you'd get quizzical looks when you used expressions like "I heard a gasp and thump on the other end of the line. Then the phone and my grandma were dead." The wordplay works only because we recognize as a body of language users that a particular word has two distinct meanings. That by itself is not carte blanche for someone to make up their own definition of the word and then claim it's okay because the word has more than one meaning.

The entire lynchpin of the supposed Beatrice-really-believed-it red concept is that the definition makes sense... to her. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone else. But that's a violation of the general understanding that we have for how language operates. I don't get to define turds as "ice cream sandwiches" unless I specifically tell everyone else, who are accustomed to not getting a big bite of shit for dessert, what I mean when I say "ice cream sandwich." Beatrice was obliged to present a universal definition of "dead," even if that definition required some clever thinking to understand how it might apply to a person faking death. Hence my suggestion that "dead" be treated to exclusively refer to the appearance of death as either an actual event or participation in deception, as at least it is then equally consistent for a person actually murdered and a person faking death and avoids any "personality" shenanigans at all.

Even if you say the concept is meant to apply to Beatrice and to her inner circle, the audience is Battler. No evidence is ever presented to show that Battler shares such a commonality of language, nor is any apparent effort made to actually permit him to come to that understanding. And it rather goes without saying that it's manipulative to an extreme with respect to a reading audience.
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Old 2012-06-28, 13:25   Link #29429
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Sure, "the phone and my grandma were dead" is an odd expression, but you wouldn't object to that being said in red, right? It IS a true statement, however strangely worded.

And if you know that the names Shannon and Kanon do not refer to people, but personalities, then you can infer from that red that they in fact fall under the 'personality death' category.

Naturally, Battler does not know this, but there are clues presented so he can figure it out.
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Old 2012-06-28, 13:46   Link #29430
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Even if you say the concept is meant to apply to Beatrice and to her inner circle, the audience is Battler. No evidence is ever presented to show that Battler shares such a commonality of language, nor is any apparent effort made to actually permit him to come to that understanding. And it rather goes without saying that it's manipulative to an extreme with respect to a reading audience.
Except the effort is made through all the mumbo-jumbo the characters mumble all the time about the concept of 'life' and 'death' and 'ressurection' (and we know Beatrice excepts Battler to get tons of stuff by what she's showing him). Regardless of that concept being valid or not, we certainly did have means to pick up on it and see how they mean it.

And it's obviously manipulative and misleading. If it weren't, it wouldn't be a mystery. I'm not going to argue whether it was fair or not, because it really depends on how different people interpret the same thing. A hint that's obvious for some may appear as incomprehensible to others and so on.

Though I will agree that the red is plainly dirty-cheating from the start. Well, actually, it's neccessary in order to trick Battler that it's magic from one point of view, since in a game with unreliable witnesses and fucked up 'reading' or whatever else you want to call it, where every information shown may or may not be filtered with fantasy, nobody would accept any closed room, since it'd be simpler to argue that the witnesses are lying, the corpse is playing dead, or the door was never locked to begin with. It is needed only to make us accept certain bits of information which we could very easily doubt otherwise. However, the ways in which it is used are far from reader-friendly.
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Old 2012-06-28, 14:10   Link #29431
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Except the effort is made through all the mumbo-jumbo the characters mumble all the time about the concept of 'life' and 'death' and 'ressurection' (and we know Beatrice excepts Battler to get tons of stuff by what she's showing him). Regardless of that concept being valid or not, we certainly did have means to pick up on it and see how they mean it.

And it's obviously manipulative and misleading. If it weren't, it wouldn't be a mystery. I'm not going to argue whether it was fair or not, because it really depends on how different people interpret the same thing. A hint that's obvious for some may appear as incomprehensible to others and so on.
I pretty much agree with this stuff. There was actually quite a lot on the concept of metaphorical death throughout Umineko, but whether that makes the "dead" tricks fair or not is really just a matter of opinion.
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Old 2012-06-28, 14:15   Link #29432
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You guys continue to ignore the point, which is that it's inconsistent.
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Old 2012-06-28, 15:17   Link #29433
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Though I will agree that the red is plainly dirty-cheating from the start. Well, actually, it's neccessary in order to trick Battler that it's magic from one point of view
Pity that's not what Beatrice wants at all.
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Old 2012-06-28, 15:24   Link #29434
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You guys continue to ignore the point, which is that it's inconsistent.
I thought you had reached a consistent explanation with "dead"~"appear to be dead".
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Old 2012-06-28, 15:38   Link #29435
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I thought you had reached a consistent explanation with "dead"~"appear to be dead".
Well sure, I did, but I'm not Ryukishi and my conception of it doesn't seem to work too well.
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Old 2012-06-28, 16:59   Link #29436
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You guys continue to ignore the point, which is that it's inconsistent.
I didn't try to defend the consistency of the logic behind personality death, I just said it was hinted so you could easily pick up on it regardless of its validity.

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Pity that's not what Beatrice wants at all.
Um...Isn't it? Even though Beatrice secretly wishes for Battler to solve her mysteries, she also wants him to acknowledge her as a witch, which he does once he gets a good understanding of her, thus granting her wish.

Plus, making Battler accept witches is her winning clause in the game, which we know she wished to play with him.

I agree, it is roundabout, it is counter-productive to her motive, but Beatrice is a fickle and selfish person after all.
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Old 2012-06-28, 17:31   Link #29437
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Alt form for Banquet's problematic red, maybe:

"Kinzo, and all of the servants are dead! The 5 existing master keys were found on their bodies, of course. All deaths were instant, and noone is hiding in the rooms they were discovered in : *list of rooms* I have more : when I say noone was hiding, I mean that there was nobody present that your parents could not detect, and your parents faithfully reported all they had found! None were killed by traps or commited suicide, either."

This is the same bundle of information, but only implies a body count of 6 by stating that 6 rooms were found with bodies in them.

The part about no suicides, or rather, no suicides AND instant death is a still a problem. Not sure how one would work around that
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Old 2012-06-28, 17:52   Link #29438
GreyZone
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Alt form for Banquet's problematic red, maybe:

"Kinzo, and all of the servants are dead! The 5 existing master keys were found on their bodies, of course. All deaths were instant, and noone is hiding in the rooms they were discovered in : *list of rooms* I have more : when I say noone was hiding, I mean that there was nobody present that your parents could not detect, and your parents faithfully reported all they had found! None were killed by traps or commited suicide, either."

This is the same bundle of information, but only implies a body count of 6 by stating that 6 rooms were found with bodies in them.

The part about no suicides, or rather, no suicides AND instant death is a still a problem. Not sure how one would work around that
Ohoh.... Kinzo was not excluded here... "death by illness" is now considered "instant death"?
I know that in other red texts he is excluded though.
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Old 2012-06-28, 18:16   Link #29439
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If you look at EP7, his death really was instantaneous.
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Old 2012-06-28, 18:51   Link #29440
Kealym
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Yeah, the regular reds also list Kinzo's death as instant.
"The six people died instantly!"

I mean, it's rather forced, semantically - there's often a time between when an injury is inflicted and when the body finally goes "kaput", and Kinzo had been in the process of being old and nearly-dead since forever ago. The sentiment is probably just "Nobody was limping around the mansion for a half hour as they slowly bled out" or anything like that.
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