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Old 2012-06-29, 09:28   Link #29461
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But yes, it's more plausible to say Fictional Shkanon is an overlay for the actions of a single, deliberate, sane person who is merely acting (with all the Shannon/Kanon stuff being nothing more than metaphor), and that Yasu, or Beatrice, or however you want to think of the author is herself entirely in control of her faculties.
I'll try again to challenge the common belief that Yasu has to be perfectly sane.

Let's even say that she's acting as having different personalities, but what if she's delusional enough to believe these facets of hers are actual individual separate beings?
Are you familiar with the concept of tulpa?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
In fact, this is really the only setup that makes any sense, because I don't see a batshit insane person committing murders competently even in a fictional story,
We've been at this again in the past. There's no evidence that Yasu was competent in her murder plans, there were many occasions for her strategy to miserably fail but for some reason it never happened. Probably because she wrote the story and manipulated random events to her own convenience. Everyone can be a genius mastermind and fool everyone else in their own fantasies.

At any rate nothing in what she did was "competent" enough for her to get away with that murder if the police could investigate the crime. Of course there was this huge bomb, but it wasn't something that she did, and it wasn't even her idea.
An to say that a mad person couldn't successfully murder someone or several people... well... I don't think I need to argue that, right?

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and I certainly don't see such a person writing a story.
Why the hell not? It wasn't even a well conceived story.
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Old 2012-06-29, 09:29   Link #29462
GabrieliosP
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Regarding the whole people/human thing at the end of Dawn:

Human = Has a body, be it alive or dead
Person = Has self-awareness and can act by itself

Thus:

Alternate personality = Person
One body one personality = One human and one person
One body two personalities = One human and two people
Corpse: One human and zero people

So:

Siblings and their spouses: Seven humans and seven people
Cousins: Four humans and four people
Kinzo's dead body: One human and zero people
Genji, Gohda, Kumawasa and Nanjo: Four humans and four people
Kanon/Shannon: One human and two people
Erika's dead body at the beach: One human and zero people

Final count:

18 humans and only 17 people
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Old 2012-06-29, 09:37   Link #29463
Asuka0NK
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Actually you got the corpse thing wrong
Corpse = Zero human and one person
Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!
Before now, I have proclaimed that no more than 18 humans exist on this island.
I will lower that by one for Kinzo!!
No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!


How I solved it was that
Humans are any living like humanoid creature
People are alive or dead humanoids.

So we have the original 18 humans on Rokkenjima
Let's lower that by 2 for Kanon and Kinzo
Beatrice is a witch and witches seem to count towards the human total and not the people total so +1 = 17
Also Erika was the Witch of Truth when she arrived +1 again = 18 Humans
Also I got that a Witch = Human but not Witch = Person from Evatrice's Red Truth in Ep 3
The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!

Now if this mean't Witch =/= Human then she would've out right denied her own existence.

Now with people we originally have 18 people. Let's minus that by 1 for Kanon
There this makes 18 = 17

This however only works if you consider Yasu = Shannon.
------------
On another thing do you guys remember in Ep 8 where Kanon and Shannon were going to do the love duel again. I actually got excited to see how this would play out but Ryukishi seemed to forget about it right after it happened and we never got to see what happened. I'm assuming the attack on Rokkenjima interrupted them from doing it but still we never got to see it. Also I have a new theory about Rokkenjima Prime. No one was a culprit on October 4th Rokkenjima was raided by pirates in goat masks. The captain of the goat-headed pirates was a young girl with blue hair that wielded a scythe. They broke into the mansion and killed everyone. Shannon was forced to give them the gold. They then activated the bomb because they didn't know what it was and then they sailed away. Later the night the island exploded. People heard rumors about a pirate group like this and noticed the resemblances of them to Erika from the Forgeries and thus Twilight of the Golden Witch was written.
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Old 2012-06-29, 09:42   Link #29464
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Regarding the whole people/human thing at the end of Dawn:

Human = Has a body, be it alive or dead
Person = Has self-awareness and can act by itself

Thus:

Alternate personality = Person
One body one personality = One human and one person
One body two personalities = One human and two people
Corpse: One human and zero people

So:

Siblings and their spouses: Seven humans and seven people
Cousins: Four humans and four people
Kinzo's dead body: One human and zero people
Genji, Gohda, Kumawasa and Nanjo: Four humans and four people
Kanon/Shannon: One human and two people
Erika's dead body at the beach: One human and zero people

Final count:

18 humans and only 17 people
Problem: There are several red truths with Erika as the subject in various actions. if she was a dead human there's simply no way she could perform all that.
And if you use the erika ball theory postulating an Erika personality using someone else's body then you end up with 18 people. Also, I believe that Yasu should count as yet another "people" according to you analysis.
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Old 2012-06-29, 09:48   Link #29465
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But yes, it's more plausible to say Fictional Shkanon is an overlay for the actions of a single, deliberate, sane person who is merely acting (with all the Shannon/Kanon stuff being nothing more than metaphor), and that Yasu, or Beatrice, or however you want to think of the author is herself entirely in control of her faculties. In fact, this is really the only setup that makes any sense, because I don't see a batshit insane person committing murders competently even in a fictional story, and I certainly don't see such a person writing a story.
About the Shkanon's sanity, I have thought of two theory:

1. They're just roles in a story. I don't think Yasu really dressed up with fake boobs and all in REALITY, because that would mean Jessica and Geogre are huge idiots, or in the cathood too (Especially Jes. You went to the same school with this child and cannot tell that he and his "sister" are the same?). They're just roles Yasu put in her stories as a metaphors for her gender problem and conflicting feeling. In reality, there should be only one Shanon in the island. Of course, there would be the problem then about nobody realize Kanon did not exist. Or why we are not informed about something weird with the guys.

But maybe, just maybe, the only bits we know about Prime is from EP4 and EP6. If I assume the forgeries are exactly what we read, then Battle/Ikkuko got some damn good reason for never mentioning about Kanon being fake.

2. Well, it is not a very nice move on my own, but I sometimes have to doubt about Ryukishi's knowledge of how MPD really suppose to work. Shkanon is very typical if you compare with how multiple personalities are sometimes portrayed in media. So I guess Ryukishi just simply wrote his characters according to popular belief (personalities emerging from childhood pain, trauma, etc...each of them got slightly different motives and memories...wish fulliment through dellusion...identiy crisis....the death of personalities...a bit psycho intent...totally cracked down at the end...) My example would be that Marik from Yugioh manga. Well it is pretty much a cracked theory, I guess, but maybe we should not think too hard about it like how Maria could know about Card Captor Sakura The point is, personality death is treated with as much drama as real death in Japanese media, so I wonder if that is just some genre cliche, and therefore we could leave the technical issue of the "death".

And well, I guess I cannot say Yasu is very sane, or at least very normal, mentally healthy. She's at least quite delusioned, and her obsession with Battler is not so healthy, too. At the end I guess she might have been willing "leave it up to fate" by some Russian roulette. So the girl got issues. But still I don;t want to view her as totally nut, because her action still suggest some logical thinking behind.

Last edited by ndqanh_vn; 2012-06-29 at 10:01.
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Old 2012-06-29, 10:12   Link #29466
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
*snip*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
*snip
So what can we say about ep3 read about '6 people' then? Is the kanji for 'people' the same as 'human' or 'person' in that case?
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Old 2012-06-29, 10:25   Link #29467
GabrieliosP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
About the Shkanon's sanity, I have thought of two theory:

1. They're just roles in a story. I don't think Yasu really dressed up with fake boobs and all in REALITY, because that would mean Jessica and Geogre are huge idiots, or in the cathood too (Especially Jes. You went to the same school with this child and cannot tell that he and his "sister" are the same?). They're just roles Yasu put in her stories as a metaphors for her gender problem and conflicting feeling. In reality, there should be only one Shanon in the island. Of course, there would be the problem then about nobody realize Kanon did not exist. Or why we are not informed about something weird with the guys.
Just to clarify: when was it said that Yasu and Jessica went to the same school? I sort-of remember the other servants wondering if Yasu was there so Jessica wouldn't be alone with no one her age around but nothing about them going to the same school.
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Old 2012-06-29, 10:43   Link #29468
Renall
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Just to clarify: when was it said that Yasu and Jessica went to the same school? I sort-of remember the other servants wondering if Yasu was there so Jessica wouldn't be alone with no one her age around but nothing about them going to the same school.
Jessica attends a public school on Nijima, as I recall. She could have attended a private school but somebody (I think it's Battler narrating in one of the early episodes) says she doesn't for various reasons.

One would assume that Yasu would be enrolled to go to the public school in Nijima as well. So it would make some degree of sense that they'd both be going to the same place, as last I checked Nijima only has one high school.
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Old 2012-06-29, 10:47   Link #29469
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by GabrieliosP View Post
Just to clarify: when was it said that Yasu and Jessica went to the same school? I sort-of remember the other servants wondering if Yasu was there so Jessica wouldn't be alone with no one her age around but nothing about them going to the same school.
I donơt remember they mentioned any other school around. And I always understand that it's implied they went to the same school. Yasu at least was told he/she was not supposed to treat Jessica as her friend, so I think they have close contact/proximity with each other outside Natsuhi's looks - Outside Rockenjima.

I gave Geogre an excuse because he was not a very frequent visitor to the island, so maybe he's not very well-informed. He might not even care about other things outside his waifu.But Jessica lived in the same house with the kid, is Shanon's best friend and at least noticed Kanon very much, so it's a bit strange for her to not notice anything.

Of course, I was working under the assumption that there is some truth in the bottle stories. Therefore, it's more logical if the Shkanon stuff is a narrative-only device. Yasu might have stuffed her bra for being insecure, but I doubted she would really display multiple personalties disorder sympton (dressing up and addressing herself as another person) and the whole Skhanon is only a metaphor.

But in an interview, Rykishi exciplit says things may have changed if Battle touched her boobs in EP 1. What can it change, I wonder? If you know a girl is stuffing her bra, which is not so abnormal, the next best thing is to shut up about it, unless you're a huge jerk.
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Old 2012-06-29, 10:49   Link #29470
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double post, sorry, the internet is working up
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Old 2012-06-29, 10:56   Link #29471
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Well I know that girl's who stuff their bras usually have breasts even if they are small but Yasu has no breasts from what we know based on Kanon. So I think it would have been very obvious that she was stuffing her breasts and Battler probably would have said something since that is who Battler is. It probably would've been what would happen if someone solved the epitaph. Shannon probably wouldn't have committed the murders since Battler may have actually noticed her and she would probably explain herself. So yes the murders can be stopped by groping Shannon instead of solving the epitaph.
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Old 2012-06-29, 11:07   Link #29472
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by Asuka0NK View Post
Well I know that girl's who stuff their bras usually have breasts even if they are small but Yasu has no breasts from what we know based on Kanon. So I think it would have been very obvious that she was stuffing her breasts and Battler probably would have said something since that is who Battler is. It probably would've been what would happen if someone solved the epitaph. Shannon probably wouldn't have committed the murders since Battler may have actually noticed her and she would probably explain herself. So yes the murders can be stopped by groping Shannon instead of solving the epitaph.
It is actually not that strange to find 16-19 girls who has next-to-none breast. I know some of them myself. So if Yasu stuffed her breast, it might just have been she's very insecure about herself, like many girls in their teens would, it might not suggest she's Kanon or a person with ambigous gender since birth or got his genitals forever damaged in some accident. So I don't think Yasu would be in danger of being exposed here. Nobody doubts her to be the master mind of a mass murder. Yet.

Even if she really disguisses herself as Kanon in daily life, which I don't think it is very likely, well...is there any reason of being exposed there? Those people are... dumb if they had never discoverd it before. They would discover Shanon is Kanon with fake breast, and they had never doubted it before Shanon is Kanon with breasts?

So I don't really know why Yasu would give up her plan if Battler comment something "Well....it's not...that big as I think". Why should her give up her trial of love? The whole point is for Battler to remember their connection right? Then why should she give up? If the point is just to "leave it to the roulette of fate", I still don't see any reason for not continuing the murder game/challenge just as plan.

It's still a bit ironic to prevent the tragedy by acting as a total pervert. But I think I get Ryukishi's point that Yasu "leaves eveything to fate" now. Still cannot understand the working of her mind. By arranging the murder game, blackmailing people to help her with her plan, revealing her true identity as the heir of the family to her accomplices, what kind of risks she could not take?

Last edited by ndqanh_vn; 2012-06-29 at 11:19.
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Old 2012-06-29, 11:21   Link #29473
Jan-Poo
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Well yeah... Battler was depicted as such a doofus in the first four gameboards that even if he witnesses Shannon completely bloodied with an equally bloodied knife in ther hand while standing in front of three recently slaughtered bodies, he'd still think she probably fought the culprit and managed to steal the knife before being killed like the other three.
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Old 2012-06-29, 11:24   Link #29474
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Well the whole point of the murder game was to make Battler remember her and in that position she would probably have to spill the beans. Since George and Shannon would be very confused by this. Again she left everything up to fate. If Battler and everyone did find out about her breasts she won't even have to mention the murder game and it can just be a thing she would keep to herself. Also is it possible that the cliff fall really damage Yasu in anyway besides some almost fatal damage. Because if you look at another way her small physique and unlovable body as she calls it could have also been caused by the fact that she is an inbred child.
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Old 2012-06-29, 11:32   Link #29475
ndqanh_vn
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well yeah... Battler was depicted as such a doofus in the first four gameboards that even if he witnesses Shannon completely bloodied with an equally bloodied knife in ther hand while standing in front of three recently slaughtered bodies, he'd still think she probably fought the culprit and managed to steal the knife before being killed like the other three.
I do not know whether you are being sacratic Jan Poo. But I honestly do not really see the significant of the fake breasts. Even if Jes and Geogre were confused, they might just think that Shanon is insecure and advoid the topic out of courtesy. Yasu did not want to tell BAtler. She wanted him to remember on his own. So if she already went that far, why gave up now?
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Old 2012-06-29, 11:49   Link #29476
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Well I know Jessica would probably just say whatevs but George will probably have a very different reaction to it. I mean Shannon is a person they've known and trusted for a very long time. They will probably consul her and help her with what she's done.
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Old 2012-06-29, 13:50   Link #29477
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Quote:
That says Erika adds 1 person more to the count?
Unless we say it's true for ep5 and not ep6?
It's completely irrelevant. I could add a billion people to a Gameboard, but none of those people were ACTUALLY there. It overrides all other other Reds because it can be interpreted as Prime-tier, or something.

Quote:
Um...That's not any different from what I said, actually. Beatrice challenges Battler in a game where she tries to prove witches and he tries to prove the opposite. Beatrice's goal isn't to achieve victory in that game, however that's her winning condition as far as Battler is concerned, regardless of what Beatrice actually has in mind, and that's the facade she puts up on purpose. I don't see what you disagree with.
I'm just pointing out that your wording sends the wrong intention, and that Shkanon death trickery doesn't help her with her goals.

Quote:
I'll try again to challenge the common belief that Yasu has to be perfectly sane.

Let's even say that she's acting as having different personalities, but what if she's delusional enough to believe these facets of hers are actual individual separate beings?
Are you familiar with the concept of tulpa?
Don't even gotta go that far. The Empowered Multiples community has a term for people called "Medians", which is basically exactly like Yasu.
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Old 2012-06-29, 15:47   Link #29478
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So what can we say about ep3 read about '6 people' then? Is the kanji for 'people' the same as 'human' or 'person' in that case?
word for "person" is: 人 (pronounced "hito")
word for "human" is: 人間 (pronounced "ningen")
also, counter for people is: 人 (pronounced "nin")

Whenever there is a number of people, say 17, the Japanese would say "17人". It's kinda like a word in of itself (like "seventeenpeople" being one word). So, you could make a case that the counter version of 人 and the normal word version of it are different. But, it'd be pretty wobbly.
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Old 2012-06-29, 18:24   Link #29479
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Now if this mean't Witch =/= Human then she would've out right denied her own existence.
Well, she kind of DOES deny her own existence. Witch =/=human is one of the basic conceits of Beatrice's game, anyways. Anyways, I'd say Evatrice's existence was protected because witches exist in the darkness of "unexplained incidents", so as long as Battler couldn't provide a satifactory blue truth, it may as well have been magic. The problem in that case is that that incredibly restrictive red truth went contrary to every notion of common sense about the humans even available to blame.

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On another thing do you guys remember in Ep 8 where Kanon and Shannon were going to do the love duel again. I actually got excited to see how this would play out but Ryukishi seemed to forget about it right after it happened and we never got to see what happened. I'm assuming the attack on Rokkenjima interrupted them from doing it but still we never got to see it.
Yeah, they probably were interrupted by the attack. However, I think Ryu included that scene to show that having a "duel" of sorts is just ... like ... the DESTINY of the Shannon and Kanon pieces, and despite how melodramatic it was in Dawn, it's just "something they do".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
But maybe, just maybe, the only bits we know about Prime is from EP4 and EP6. If I assume the forgeries are exactly what we read, then Battle/Ikkuko got some damn good reason for never mentioning about Kanon being fake.
I forgot who, but I recall some time ago someone posted a very solid explanation of why the forgeries CAN'T be the exact same text we ourselves are reading.
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Old 2012-06-29, 19:22   Link #29480
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There are several red truths with Erika as the subject in various actions.
Once again, I'm not sure red truth have to be consistent both within and across all games. She can act in red on the gameboard and still not really have existed.

Quote:
and at least noticed Kanon very much
It is possible that living alone on the island she pulled a yasu and fell for someone she never really spoke to and never really saw. It does sound shaky though.

As for the Ryu interview comment re: the breasts, that might have been more offhand than anything else, not everything he says can be a deeply thought out clue. He was probably amused at the idea of her plan falling apart because she had no breasts or her wig fell off or something, an event like that wouldn't necessarily stop all her plans, but it would certainly make it harder for her to continue as normal. And not be the center of attention. And since we know she is a blusher, not implode with embarrassment.
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