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Old 2012-07-13, 18:19   Link #29621
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
No, I am alive. If you are not a bot, then you are alive too :P
How do you know we aren't all bots?
Jokes apart, when you are a person like Ange who can see and talk to a little girl that is supposed to have died a ten years before, and who can see and talk to witch of miracles, and who can see and talk to seven demons and an anthropomorphization of a lion plush while even playing "shiratori" with them... how could you have the complete certainty that every other person around you that you consider "real" actually is?


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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?
It's all in Ange's mind. Battler becomes stronger because Ange starts to believe more in him than in Bernkastel. Belief is power in the metaworld and so even Ange could make the witch of miracles transform into a harmless kitten simply by willing it.
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Old 2012-07-13, 19:04   Link #29622
RandomAvatarFan
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
How do you know we aren't all bots?
Jokes apart, when you are a person like Ange who can see and talk to a little girl that is supposed to have died a ten years before, and who can see and talk to witch of miracles, and who can see and talk to seven demons and an anthropomorphization of a lion plush while even playing "shiratori" with them... how could you have the complete certainty that every other person around you that you consider "real" actually is?
At the same time, like with everything else in Umineko, those scenes were very metaphorical, and I don't believe for one second that Ange ever believed she was really talking to Maria and Sakutarou. I think she does have a better grip on reality than what you give her credit for.


Quote:
It's all in Ange's mind. Battler becomes stronger because Ange starts to believe more in him than in Bernkastel. Belief is power in the metaworld and so even Ange could make the witch of miracles transform into a harmless kitten simply by willing it.
Hmm... at least in my experience of lucid dreams, it's difficult to just will something into existence. The less connected it is from reality, the harder it is for me to accomplish it without waking up.
With that said, EP8 does show Ange's journey, growing up not sure whether her own immediate family were murderers or if the one who took her in killed everyone. What you did say could apply though: Ange's belief and trust in her brother was probably stronger than her belief in Rudolf family culprit theory.
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Old 2012-07-13, 19:33   Link #29623
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?
I posted on this a long while back:

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
That scene bothered me for a similar reason when I read it the first time. When I read it the next time I was seeing Lambda and Bern as metaphors for metaphysical forces, gods, if you will. "Praying" to Bern is hoping things outside your control will go your way, while "praying" to Lambda is believing your efforts will be rewarded.

Meanwhile, the conflicts and alliances seen in the Meta-World are metaphors for things happening in the real world. Lambda and Bern, doing what they do, mean different things to different people in different situations. In this way they can play various roles (ally, villain etc.) in various circumstances. Neither Lambda or Bern are inherently good or evil; after all, they are just metaphors of (meta)physical forces.

Now, gods like Lambda and Bern are only influential in so far as they and their power is believed in. Lambda's death symbolized a destruction of the belief that persistent effort would certainly yield success, and Battler beating Bern represented a rejection of her power to control his fate. It's basically a matter of willpower; Bern tried to make everything go wrong for Battler's real world goals, but he just refused to let that discourage him.

Of course these ideas are highly abstract. I probably didn't explain my thoughts in a way that's very easy to understand...
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Old 2012-07-13, 19:43   Link #29624
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Quote:

About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?
It was literally a miracle, which is the one thing Bernkastel couldn't accept existing. Incidentally, that same moment was what made Bernkastel absolutely lose her shit.

It was an amazingly well-written moment, all things considered.
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Old 2012-07-13, 19:55   Link #29625
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I posted on this a long while back:
No... that somehow doesn't sound right for me. Even in the the meta world Lambda and Bern are "concepts". They are on a higher plane. Attacking Bern violently seems to be something else than just rejecting her. I mean the fact that she feels "hurt" by the attack seems more like her existence itself would be damaged and not just have less influence over Ange's thoughts. OR it means that the purpose of her existence was destroyed. If Ange leads a good life, then she has NO NEED for miracles/good fortunes etc.. When she becomes Yukari, her life becomes better and she "moves on". That makes Berns existence unnecessary which leads to her feeling hurt by Battler's "attacks"... well just my take on it.
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Old 2012-07-13, 20:13   Link #29626
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It's important to note that Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are both hypocrites, drawing as much power from the ABSENCE of their concepts as much as they do its presence.
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Old 2012-07-13, 23:43   Link #29627
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
"Ange is not the only person in the world" should have become my catchphrase by this point.
Yes, but the same principle applies to Gohda's mom as well. I just mentioned Ange because she's the relevant narrative device.
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Old 2012-07-14, 02:06   Link #29628
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
About EP8: All I can say is that the moment Battler punched Bern with lastendconductor.ogg running in the background was priceless. This also brings up the question: WHY was Battler able to do that? Until then it was an established thing that they (Bern and Lambda) would just disappear into mist and the attack would be a miss. And just moments ago they fought each other by using universes as weapons... So? Any ideas?
Well ... I think it's one of those Meta moments that reached almost up to whatever layer you'd consider us ourselves on. Remember just before that, when Battler was able to beat Bern'sspecial cat brigade? Who she basically said were "better main characters, from better stories than yours (presumably Ryukishi's 'Umineko' as we ourselves are reading it)"?

Well logically, he shouldn't have been able to win, right? I think Ryu was expressing acknowledgement that he isn't the best writer ever, but Battler gets to shine because it's HIS story, damnit. I wanna say it's, as well as the Bern punching, a tounge in cheek Deus Ex Machina, because "c'mon, you can't let Bern get off scott free. C'MON. C'MOOOOOON." Something like that.

...though personally, I'd have preferred living, unexploded Ushiromiya's over a temporarily ass-handed Bernkastel. Ohhhh well.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
At the same time, like with everything else in Umineko, those scenes were very metaphorical, and I don't believe for one second that Ange ever believed she was really talking to Maria and Sakutarou. I think she does have a better grip on reality than what you give her credit for.
Huh, that reminds me of something from when I was in 7th grade or so. I created this trio of sisters with magical powers, right, sort of a cartoonish hybrid between the Halliwell sisters and the Powerpuff girls ... and they helped me with my math work. Well, strictly speaking, I helped myself with my math work, but I saw them exploding the problems out of the textbook as I solved them, and encouraging me during tests, and wobbling around like they just got attacked in a Star Trek ship when I was running out of time. I'd doodled them over a pretty fair amount of math sheets and notes. I can't believe I never remembered this when I was actually reading through Ange's story in EP4, wow.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I posted on this a long while back:
No, you were explaining it very well there, and I happen to agree with that view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yes, but the same principle applies to Gohda's mom as well. I just mentioned Ange because she's the relevant narrative device.
Gah, I always entertained the idea of Ange teaming up with Maria's dad to find THE TRUTH™. Awkward tension would have been through the roof.
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Old 2012-07-14, 07:14   Link #29629
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Gah, I always entertained the idea of Ange teaming up with Maria's dad to find THE TRUTH™. Awkward tension would have been through the roof.
She "teamed up" with Kyrie's sister instead, and it was even more awkward.
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Old 2012-07-14, 07:51   Link #29630
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
No... that somehow doesn't sound right for me. Even in the the meta world Lambda and Bern are "concepts". They are on a higher plane. Attacking Bern violently seems to be something else than just rejecting her. I mean the fact that she feels "hurt" by the attack seems more like her existence itself would be damaged and not just have less influence over Ange's thoughts. OR it means that the purpose of her existence was destroyed. If Ange leads a good life, then she has NO NEED for miracles/good fortunes etc.. When she becomes Yukari, her life becomes better and she "moves on". That makes Berns existence unnecessary which leads to her feeling hurt by Battler's "attacks"... well just my take on it.
There's to say that Bern seems to aim for a single goal rejecting any other possible outcome. She says in a tip she always aim for a certain goal and, ironically, in Higurashi Rika rejected a 'perfect world' different from the one she reached in Kai. So it's possible that the fact that Ange is willing to accept a different 'ending/goal' 'damages' Bern. No hard effort or miracle can bring Ange's family back but this doesn't mean Ange will have to kill herself or her hopes.
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Old 2012-07-15, 06:08   Link #29631
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I was wondering, in quite a few episodes different characters pointed out that tea/food is more enjoyable if you know about it/can describe or discuss it in detail. This seemed mildly important to Ryu, do you think it could be a hint to the fact we would get answers by reading mystery novels/discussing them with each-other/the way that Yasu and then Battler enjoyed murder mysteries by talking them through with the experienced Kumasawa/Shannon? It just recurred so often....
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Old 2012-07-15, 06:11   Link #29632
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Also the manga translation just covered the episode 5 part about the knock, it seems to deny that everyone could have just lied about hearing the knock, but I would have to go recheck the red.
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Old 2012-07-15, 06:19   Link #29633
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Sorry for triple post, but I realised it is fine for anyone in the dining room to knock on the door, even though this doesn't really make sense. Furthermore the letter needs only never to have been on the floor in the hallway for the story to check out.

I also realised it is entirely possibly for Shannon and Kanon to have sat in the dining room and stayed with the family, the tend to do most things together actually.
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Old 2012-07-15, 06:43   Link #29634
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This part of Episode 5 still confuses me.

I hate to think there's a stupid word game in play here, but is it possible that something else other than a typical "knock" is meant by a "knocking sound"?

EDIT: I'm not sure it was possible for one of the people in the dining room to knock on the door. Look at this passage from Episode 5 when the group hears the knock.

Spoiler for Episode 5:


EDIT 2: There's red about this too in Episode 5. Let it be known that in addition to Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji, none of those in the dining hall knocked on that door. Shortly after this, Dlanor says "In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of the knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed."

Last edited by Thunder Book; 2012-07-15 at 07:33.
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Old 2012-07-15, 08:06   Link #29635
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I don't think that anyone lied about the knock - it just never happened. Nobody ever tells anyone about the knock, so there's no proof anyone even thinks it happened. It's a completely fabricated fantasy scene, one of many examples of Lambda playing dirty.
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Old 2012-07-15, 09:18   Link #29636
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Of course! It was the door that made the knocking sound, not the person! Just like how the drum makes the sound and not the percussionist!

*Ahem*

I might view the scene again to see if I can come up with something crazy... err original. What was the chapter called?
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Old 2012-07-15, 09:55   Link #29637
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Its more obvious that the knock didn't occure at 24:00, but earlier.
Somebody (in other words, it has to be someone who is in the guest house @ 24:00) changed the time in Natsuhis room after he placed the tarrot card (or four cards, since I don't believe in Shakanontrice) and in the main hall, so the clock in the main hall indicated too early that it is midnight.

It was never stated in red that the time when the knock occured really was at 24:00, right?

And even Will told us the solution in the beginning of the 7th novel.
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Old 2012-07-15, 10:28   Link #29638
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Four cards, huh? You realise that the guy on the phone already implied that summer wasn't the right answer before they asked, right? Why take that risk if it could have been summer for all they knew? Not to mention that if Natsuhi had happened to find any of the other cards, the illusion would be ruined.

Also, I'm pretty sure there were no hints at any point that the clock was tampered with, and why try to explain how the knock could have happened when, outside of a scene that the detective never witnessed or heard about, it was never mentioned?
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Old 2012-07-15, 11:22   Link #29639
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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
Somebody changed the time in Natsuhis room after he placed the tarrot card and in the main hall,
Why would they do that? Why not just knock when it's actually midnight?
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Old 2012-07-15, 12:06   Link #29640
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Sorry for triple post, but I realised it is fine for anyone in the dining room to knock on the door, even though this doesn't really make sense. Furthermore the letter needs only never to have been on the floor in the hallway for the story to check out.

I also realised it is entirely possibly for Shannon and Kanon to have sat in the dining room and stayed with the family, the tend to do most things together actually.
In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. It's true that the story checks out if the letter was never placed in the hall, similar to how a closed room checks out if the door was never really locked. It's also true that Shannon and Kanon tend to do things together, but it IS peculiar that they're doing something together around a bunch of people who aren't Kumasawa or Genji.


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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
This part of Episode 5 still confuses me.

I hate to think there's a stupid word game in play here, but is it possible that something else other than a typical "knock" is meant by a "knocking sound"?
"'To knock' means someone hitting a door with their hand, right?" is what Lambda said, and nobody would mistake a similar sound from any other method for the real thing, either.

Spoiler for Episode 5:

Yeah, and Battler saw Kinzo being a creeper in the bushes earlier.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I don't think that anyone lied about the knock - it just never happened. Nobody ever tells anyone about the knock, so there's no proof anyone even thinks it happened. It's a completely fabricated fantasy scene, one of many examples of Lambda playing dirty.
"People lied about the knock" and "no knock occured" are effectively the same argument, you know. Erika gathered a very detailed account of everyone's actions the previous night. And while I'm unsure if she ever explicitly ponders it aloud to the other pieces, I think it's very reasonable to assume that Erika is aware that a letter was delivered, which is allegedly how Battler obtained the Ring of the Head.

Furthermore, despite what the characters themselves say, the degree to which the human side has to account for things varies pretty wildly from game to game. Hell, you could say that the ENTIRE "Court of Illusions" segment should never have reached it's anti-Natsuhi verdict because Erika NEVER accounted for the letter, which was obviously something that COULD be discussed with Truths, because they did so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
Of course! It was the door that made the knocking sound, not the person! Just like how the drum makes the sound and not the percussionist!

*Ahem*

I might view the scene again to see if I can come up with something crazy... err original. What was the chapter called?
Well, it was never explicitly said that the door was typical. It's possible it grew a hand that reached out and hit itself.

The argument about the letter is in the chapter titled "Reasoning and Inspection".

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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
Its more obvious that the knock didn't occure at 24:00, but earlier.
Somebody (in other words, it has to be someone who is in the guest house @ 24:00) changed the time in Natsuhis room after he placed the tarrot card (or four cards, since I don't believe in Shakanontrice) and in the main hall, so the clock in the main hall indicated too early that it is midnight.

It was never stated in red that the time when the knock occured really was at 24:00, right?

And even Will told us the solution in the beginning of the 7th novel.
It was obvious that the clocks had been changed..? It's possible, based on what we know, but I agree with Wanderer - it's a much more complex solution than, and provides no benefits over "no knock occured". Occams Razor and all that. Also, what did Will say about that? I've forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Four cards, huh? You realise that the guy on the phone already implied that summer wasn't the right answer before they asked, right? Why take that risk if it could have been summer for all they knew? Not to mention that if Natsuhi had happened to find any of the other cards, the illusion would be ruined.

Also, I'm pretty sure there were no hints at any point that the clock was tampered with, and why try to explain how the knock could have happened when, outside of a scene that the detective never witnessed or heard about, it was never mentioned?
Well, pulling off a trick does take some risk. What is Maria had opened her eyes when Beato was making candy appear, and stuff. As I said, it's very likely that Erika was told about the letter later, and even assuming she wasn't, it's still an "odd trick" that implies the illusion of the witch in the overall narrative. The knee jerk response, like with many other scenes, would just be "That never happened!", and despite a crapload of details about the layout of people and actions, Lambda never confirmed that it did happen.
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