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Old 2009-11-09, 03:46   Link #2961
Neofio3
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
If it were the case it would perhaps be believable but she went from an emotional wreck to perfectly calm, calculating with even a short Hannibal Lecture on Battler before pulling the trigger. Given the context of the final scene it felt completely out of character. It's not like they were in a heated argument or were fighting over the gun. Eva calmly raised and pointed the gun on him, spoke, and shot.
Hence the emotional beatdown beforehand. That can be explained in that Eva simply broke down at that point. If it were true, the poor woman believes the death of her husband and son were her fault (not to mention almost killing someone just a short while ago). Becoming out of character in that situation is completely understandable.

In any case, the fact that piece Battler's observations are one of the very few things we can go on in the series is not one I'd readily discard (the red truth is problematic as it is). And if it were a red herring, then piece Battler's observation has been shown to be untrustworthy, which just leaves us with the red truth to go on.
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Old 2009-11-09, 03:59   Link #2962
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Uwah, a zero-love theory.

Regarding Episode 1, Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers.
I actually forgot that particular red truth and it kinda rapes my whole theory, because in that case Genji can't kill Eva and Hideyoshi... however it can be solved if the killer was Renon who had just arrived by boat. Genji can still have TRIED to kill Kanon in the parlor even though he didn't kill anyone.


Quote:
For Episode 3, how do you explain Kinzo's corpse in the first twilight with that theory? Revealing it to the other siblings is the absolute last thing Natsuhi wants to do, so how and why did it get into the locked room chain? And how is it possible that the siblings collaborated on setting up that chain without them finding out that Kinzo was dead?

Actually, that raises an even better question. Given that the chain supposedly consists of people that all of the siblings killed, what was the purpose of setting up that chain in the first place, especially if they were just going to open it back up later anyway?
Kinzo is supposed to turn up dead during the family conference because he is always burnt to fake his death. In the second arc, Natsuhi and Krauss both died, so no one could have Kinzo burned, but in the third arc, Krauss or Natsuhi could have ordered some servant to prepare the boiler room with Kinzo without the other siblings knowing it or they could've done it themselves.

The siblings were actually going to kill Nanjo instead of Kinzo because they needed a sixth sacrifice and wouldn't kill the children, but for some reason they couldn't kill him. If I remember correctly, Nanjo slept in the guesthouse and that might've been unexpected by the adults (who thought that Kinzo was alive and that Nanjo would therefore have a room in the mansion). Krauss and Natsuhi knew of course that Nanjo would be in the guesthouse and prepared Kinzo in the boiler instead. They could easily sneak an extra room into the chain if the adults ultimately agreed to have 5 rooms because they couldn't get Nanjo.

This is backed up by how the first twilight in all arcs kills people that are in close proximity of each other. In the first arc, only people in the mansion died. In the second, only the adults discussing in the chapel died. In the third, all the servants having been called to the mansion died. In the fourth only those in the dining room died.

Last edited by Geekodot; 2009-11-09 at 11:12.
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Old 2009-11-09, 04:28   Link #2963
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
I actually forgot that particular red truth and it kinda rapes my whole theory, because in that case Genji can't kill Eva and Hideyoshi... however it can be solved if the killer was Renon who had just arrived by boeat. Genji can still have TRIED to kill Kanon in the parlor even though he didn't kill anyone.
That red texts actually could be regarded as referring particularly to 6-8 twilights, as Lambda was rebuking Battler's "Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo held guns and shot simultaneously to kill each other." In this interpretation, it did not necessarily rape your theory.

But who is Renon you were talking about? ノックス第1条。犯人は物語当初の登場人物以外を禁ズ!!
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Old 2009-11-09, 04:43   Link #2964
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
at least one servant didn't die until after 6:25am, and the chain was only supposed to have five rooms.
I think your theory is very good but what about the red text for when they discovered the bodies:
"All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!"

Also, you mixed up Kumasawa and Genji. The chain was:
1. Parlor (Shannon)
2. Second floor guest room (Kumasawa)
3. Third floor waiting room (Gohda)
4. VIP guest room (Genji)
5. Boiler room (Kinzo)
6. Chapel (Kanon)

Other than the theories I've posted in the past (destroyed keys theory, false conference theory, kanon wasn't "killed" theory) what if someone was hiding in the room?

Spoiler for Another theory for episode 3's first twilight:
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Old 2009-11-09, 04:51   Link #2965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post

Spoiler for Another theory for episode 3's first twilight:
A problem here a bit is the frame of reference. Do we consider this red text as a statement of the status of the rooms the moment they were said at 7am, or the moment the murders happenede up until discovery? Given the nature of that discussion it seems more likey Beato was referring to the red text state of the room at the moment of the murders to discovery rather than the moment of discussion.
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Old 2009-11-09, 04:54   Link #2966
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
A problem here a bit is the frame of reference. Do we consider this red text as a statement of the status of the rooms the moment they were said at 7am, or the moment the murders happenede up until discovery? Given the nature of that discussion it seems more likey Beato was referring to the red text state of the room at the moment of the murders to discovery rather than the moment of discussion.
If that is the case then she would have used past tense. I checked the japanese and she didn't. ^^
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Old 2009-11-09, 05:13   Link #2967
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
That red texts actually could be regarded as referring particularly to 6-8 twilights, as Lambda was rebuking Battler's "Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo held guns and shot simultaneously to kill each other." In this interpretation, it did not necessarily rape your theory.

But who is Renon you were talking about? ノックス第1条。犯人は物語当初の登場人物以外を禁ズ!!
Renon (or at least something similiar to that name) is a servant like Shannon and Kanon. She was however not working on the island that day, but as far as I can see, she can be an unknown person on the island and still satisfy knox rules because she was mentioned in the beginning of both ep 1 and 2 several times.
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Old 2009-11-09, 05:46   Link #2968
MeoTwister5
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
If that is the case then she would have used past tense. I checked the japanese and she didn't. ^^
Well... yeah you have a point, but of course the absence of past tense does not mean she was not have been referring to that specific point in time.
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Old 2009-11-09, 08:49   Link #2969
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
If that is the case then she would have used past tense. I checked the japanese and she didn't. ^^
The real problem I see with this, is that if Beatrice really used such a cheap trick then she's trying to bring Battler out of track.

There is a difference between someone who wants a riddle to be difficult and puts many obstacles on the way, and someone who wants a riddle to never be solved and therefore uses tricks to bring the solver away from a solution he already reached.

We know that Beatrice wants the riddle to be solved from Ryukishi's words.

So while I can understand why Beatrice makes the riddle difficult, I can't understand why she would pull such a move instead of giving hints. If Battler got the right answer Beatrice shouldn't have made it so to make him think it was wrong.

Quote:
Renon (or at least something similiar to that name) is a servant like Shannon and Kanon. She was however not working on the island that day, but as far as I can see, she can be an unknown person on the island and still satisfy knox rules because she was mentioned in the beginning of both ep 1 and 2 several times.
Renon gets a single mention in all the five episodes. You are probably thinking about Runon (the one that's good a cutting corners) which however is only mentioned 4 times, and there is no guarantee that she's till working for the family.

Runon and Manon are mentioned in Episode5 once. And Episode5 also mentions a never mentioned before servant named Reinon (I guess... it's hard to tell what yomi must be picked)

Overall:

Runon (瑠音): 4 mentions (Episode2 and Episode5)
Manon (眞音): 2 mentions (Episode1 and Episode5)
Renon (恋音): 1 mention (Episode1)
Reinon (礼音): 1 mention (Episode 5)

Only Manon and Renon are confirmed to be still working, the rest are mentioned in past events. So if one of them is the culprit... why Renon? It could be Manon.
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Old 2009-11-09, 10:14   Link #2970
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The real problem I see with this, is that if Beatrice really used such a cheap trick then she's trying to bring Battler out of track.

There is a difference between someone who wants a riddle to be difficult and puts many obstacles on the way, and someone who wants a riddle to never be solved and therefore uses tricks to bring the solver away from a solution he already reached.

We know that Beatrice wants the riddle to be solved from Ryukishi's words.

So while I can understand why Beatrice makes the riddle difficult, I can't understand why she would pull such a move instead of giving hints. If Battler got the right answer Beatrice shouldn't have made it so to make him think it was wrong.



Renon gets a single mention in all the five episodes. You are probably thinking about Runon (the one that's good a cutting corners) which however is only mentioned 4 times, and there is no guarantee that she's till working for the family.

Runon and Manon are mentioned in Episode5 once. And Episode5 also mentions a never mentioned before servant named Reinon (I guess... it's hard to tell what yomi must be picked)

Overall:

Runon (瑠音): 4 mentions (Episode2 and Episode5)
Manon (眞音): 2 mentions (Episode1 and Episode5)
Renon (恋音): 1 mention (Episode1)
Reinon (礼音): 1 mention (Episode 5)

Only Manon and Renon are confirmed to be still working, the rest are mentioned in past events. So if one of them is the culprit... why Renon? It could be Manon.
Ofc it could be Manon, however one of those with an R have been confirmed a woman, and that benefits my theory xD

Either way, the extra person on the island is not necessary, but it would explain alot... Can't think of much else that could time a landslide at 24.00 when everyone's whereabouts are known than an unknown person (im believing in the landslide theory and I won't leave it xD)

And just to mention, the unknown person on the island can also be some of those from 1998 couldn't it?

Last edited by Geekodot; 2009-11-09 at 11:14.
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Old 2009-11-09, 15:18   Link #2971
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Those servants are pretty obvious Higurashi cameos. (Renon, Runon, Reina-Rena Manon-Mion, hurf) That being said, I'd be pretty damn disappointed if Ryu07 decided to throw yet another beloved Higurashi character into the Good-cleansing Evil-filling machine.

Actually... Come to think of it, assuming Erika is the bitchy Rika from Saikoroshi-hen, Rena and Mion just moving on to become temporary servants at the Ushiromiya mansion doesn't seem too far-fetched, does it?
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Old 2009-11-09, 17:22   Link #2972
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I've seen some theories recently that link Rosa and Kyrie in the culprit chain somehow. What, exactly, do Kyrie and Rosa have enough in common to work together? It's like a Krauss/Kyrie theory after ep4. Sure, it sort of makes sense from events... but then you have to look at what happens before and ask why anyone would engage in premeditation with those particular pairings. There's no real indication that Rosa and Kyrie even know each other that well, or indeed that anyone in the family knows Kyrie particularly well (by contrast, at least, to Natsuhi and Hideyoshi, whom everyone knows decently well). Eva seems more familiar with Kyrie than anyone (and also more familiar with Rosa). I'm just not seeing much connection, short of maybe both having a young daughter.

And now for a complete crackpot theory:

Spoiler for Evil George/Shannon Motive Theory:

Of course, none of this really explains anything, and all but the last theory pretty much preclude any sort of happy ending either for the couple or one of the two participants. One or both of them plotting something certainly shouldn't be left out, I just went for what I thought was the most logical motive. It's even a somewhat noble motive (at least, discounting the variations where someone is to be killed over it).
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Old 2009-11-09, 17:56   Link #2973
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The George mastermind theory intrigues me. Not only because the revelation of George being the mastermind would be shocking enough (Servants, Rosa and Eva have all been proposed as killers before by Battler), there are some probable hints leading to the possibility that George could snap and kill everyone.

For example, George has said he's ready to fight the whole family for Shannon. He then said that he understand Kinzo and to get back the person he loves he would immerse himself in the world of occultism to resurrect her. There is then Episode4 where unexpectedly he chose the third option.

also there is something interesting I have found about episode1 after Natsuhi drives the servants and Maria away from Kinzo's study.

Quote:
......During this endless silence, we could do nothing but be quietly tormented by that sin...
Natsuhi oba-san faced the door, without letting go of her rifle for even an instant, sitting far back in the sofa. ......She would probably spend the night staring at the door without a wink of sleep.
George-aniki gazed through a gap in the closed curtains by the window, looking down at the courtyard and the mansion that surrounded it.
......I didn't know whether he was checking to see if a suspicious shadow would become visible through the window, ...or whether he was wondering to himself about something.

Jessica was sitting sideways on the sofa next to Natsuhi oba-san, ...with a dead expression on her face.
......And every once in a while, as though she'd just remembered something, she would take out the inhaler that she had used during her asthma attack and stick it in her mouth.
It could mean nothing, but if there is someone that could send orders to an external accomplice, that person can only be George.

Because of the knox rules, if such a thing happened there must be clues, and such clues exist only in the case of George.

Of course you could argue that there was no need for the accomplice to receive orders if everything was already planned.
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Old 2009-11-09, 19:04   Link #2974
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There's a discussion about magical counterparts on the EP4 thread, so I thought I'd say some stuff over here where we can talk about EP5 characters and events.

So far, the only ones we have confirmed are Ronove = Genji and Virgilla = Kumasawa, which leaves a whole lot of possibilities for everyone else:

Gaap: Shannon is obviously the most logical choice here, not only with their shared status as young female furniture but also this interesting little hint discovered by Jan-Poo.

Beatrice: This has been discussed before: Beato = Culprit.

Bernkastel: Bern's original role in the game was a watcher, but in EP5 she became a player. Maybe she is a back-up murderer, committing the murders the main culprit cannot?

Lambdadelta: Same as Bern, but maybe a bit more active than her.

The Stakes: I believe it's widely thought these are the parents.

The Siestas: The guns

Dlanor: A toughie. Someone logical, who wants to find the truth like Battler, but goes a little...extreme. This person might also be in agreement with Erika in EP5, but doesn't like her. Somebody suggested Kyrie awhile back, which happens to be a good idea.

Gertrude and Cornelia: ...There's too little on these two and their origins to think about them yet.

Any other thoughts?
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Old 2009-11-09, 19:16   Link #2975
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I always personally thought that each demon represents one person, even the goats XD

Stakes = Parents
Siestas = Cousins, not counting Battler. 4 Siesta's, one is dead. 4 cousins, one isn't on the island
Gaap = Shannon
Ronove = Genji
Virgillia = Kumasawa
3 goats only shown at a time (but that's probably more of an issue of space on screen) = Gohda, Kanon, and Nanjo.

It doesn't make any sense at all, but that's how I saw it at first. Originally Beatrice had 16 pieces and so did Battler, yada yada chess has 16 pieces per player, or so I've been told.

Maybe the demons represent the part of each Islander that wants to kill? XD I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore....
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Old 2009-11-09, 21:36   Link #2976
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I don't think that Shannon = Gaap, mostly because of this:

Spoiler for Episode 2 TIPs:


While in Genji TIP is said that he is based in Ronove, in Shannon is said that she's an "original" furniture.
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Old 2009-11-09, 23:09   Link #2977
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I've seen some theories recently that link Rosa and Kyrie in the culprit chain somehow. What, exactly, do Kyrie and Rosa have enough in common to work together? It's like a Krauss/Kyrie theory after ep4. Sure, it sort of makes sense from events... but then you have to look at what happens before and ask why anyone would engage in premeditation with those particular pairings. There's no real indication that Rosa and Kyrie even know each other that well, or indeed that anyone in the family knows Kyrie particularly well (by contrast, at least, to Natsuhi and Hideyoshi, whom everyone knows decently well). Eva seems more familiar with Kyrie than anyone (and also more familiar with Rosa). I'm just not seeing much connection, short of maybe both having a young daughter.
I don't know if you are talking about my theory. I have Kyrie and Rosa teamed up to make the giving of letter to Maria easier, as every time Maria was left alone in the garden to receive the letter was too suspicious, as well as Rosa's saying that Kinzo giving to Maria the letter directly was a blatant lie.

I am thinking on separating them and the possibility of giving the letter to Maria without Rosa's collusion. Anyway, for a linkage between Kyrie and Rosa, you know that before the family meeting, the younger siblings and their spouses were plotting together to squeeze money from Krauss. They certainly had met before to discuss strategies and contingency. Therefore Kyrie and Rosa have met beforehand. Kyrie may approach Rosa in private to suggest a plan of using Maria to deliver the letter during the dinner in order to force everyone to find where the gold was. (assuming Kyrie knew the gold's existence). I presume Rosa knew about Kinzo's death through Genji as I enlist him an accomplice of Rosa. Therefore, Kyrie also knew about Kinzo's death but they decided not to let other siblings know since they thought this would probably lead to threatening Krauss being the most effective way and no one would want to solve the epigraph in this case. (I assume Rosa did not want the siblings to go into struggle at all. She wanted everyone to share the gold probably, not to alienating them further.) Getting the ring from Genji, they faked the letters. (Genji agreed to this plan since he wanted the family to concentrate on solving the epigraph as well, not intra-family struggle)

Kyrie, Rosa and Genji all wanted the family to focus on epigraph was what binded them together. In this hypothesis, Kyrie was Beatrice, without Maria's knowing.

Finished.



BTW, IMO, the assumption that each fantasy character must represent a person is not sound at all. Consider Sietus sisters' case. A better (and more general) assumption is they represent someone or something, be it tangible or intangible.
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Old 2009-11-09, 23:46   Link #2978
LyricalAura
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I think your theory is very good but what about the red text for when they discovered the bodies:
"All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!"
Since that red wasn't given until the Episode 4 tea party, it doesn't have a clear time associated with it, so I think she could have been referring to wounds they received after the search party left. Or, perhaps they had fake wounds for the search party's benefit, and they "became fatal" because the culprit stabbed them in the same place? That red has really strange wording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol
Also, you mixed up Kumasawa and Genji.
Hrm, that would make Genji the second suspect instead of Kumasawa. I don't have as much dirt on him though

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol
In my opinion the only one who could have been hiding would be Maria. She didn't kill anyone but her job was the complete the closed room by sealing the final key inside.

The others who would have involved would have to be at least: Rosa, Kyrie, Nanjo, and at least one of the servants who ended up being killed. Rosa and Kyrie would have to keep everyone at the conference while the closed rooms are setup. They would also have to lie when they said they checked on the cousins. I think the murderers could be Genji and Nanjo and then Nanjo would kill Genji at the end after all the other closed rooms were setup.
Well, we've seen enough other time-of-statement games being played that I think this theory is workable, but would Rosa really let her own daughter lock herself in a room with a dead body? And if Maria is involved this way, there'd be a risk of her falling asleep in the room she was hiding in, or of one of the other cousins waking up and noticing her gone.

You know, that reminds me. Didn't Rosa discover that her bottle of child-use sedatives was empty in Episode 3? Maybe someone (Evil Maria?) filched them for some reason?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol
What weapon could have been used? Someone must have hidden a gun and used it for the murders.
Beato said they "resembled gunshot wounds", but according to Nanjo the wounds were ambiguous, and the victims could have been stabbed with a spear-like weapon too. The adults didn't hear any kind of gunshot during the conference either, which was why I was suggesting a loose stake as the murder weapon. All of the wounds were in soft areas, so driving the stake through bone wouldn't have been an issue.

Regardless of the weapon, the neck seems like a strange place to get wounded, especially since two people had wounds there (Gohda and Genji). You'd think that during a struggle, the attacker would go for an easier target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol
Also, Battler's theory that the first person pretended to find the key is too easy. I don't think Ryukishi would simply give us the answer.
Lambda did say that some of Battler's blue text was ineffective. I think that one violates the statement that all of the keys related to the closed rooms were locked up inside those rooms.
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Old 2009-11-10, 01:44   Link #2979
Ssol
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What, exactly, do Kyrie and Rosa have enough in common to work together?
Remember, they are already working together to get money out of Krauss. However, I agree that there is not enough information to establish a clear motive for them to work together to plot the murders because I don't remember any scene where they directly spoke to each other prior to the family conference. Mabye more will be revealed later on.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
One or both of them plotting something certainly shouldn't be left out, I just went for what I thought was the most logical motive. It's even a somewhat noble motive (at least, discounting the variations where someone is to be killed over it).
George murdering the older generation due to the financial problems that they caused would be interesting. I think those are good theories.

What about the possibility that the ring scenes between Shannon and George are false? Battler's sin from six years ago was that he made Shannon fall in love with him and then left her. She actually rejects George's marriage proposals because she still has feelings for Battler, which resurfaced when he finally returned. Shannon does not tell George the real reason why she rejected him and instead makes up some other reason that makes George want to blame everyone else on the island except Battler since he's been gone for six years. Since Shannon is everything to George this leads him to murder.

Of course, for that theory you would still need other groups with murderous intentions as well because someone is bringing the stakes to the island before Oct. 4 and the message in the bottle is likely from before Oct. 4.

I think a mixture of the "Patsy George/Evil Shannon" theory and "Happy Ending Couple" theory would be interesting where George plans the financial idea with Shannon but Shannon also has plans of her own that aren't as friendly. Call it "plan B" if you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Well, we've seen enough other time-of-statement games being played that I think this theory is workable, but would Rosa really let her own daughter lock herself in a room with a dead body? And if Maria is involved this way, there'd be a risk of her falling asleep in the room she was hiding in, or of one of the other cousins waking up and noticing her gone.

You know, that reminds me. Didn't Rosa discover that her bottle of child-use sedatives was empty in Episode 3? Maybe someone (Evil Maria?) filched them for some reason?
Do you know which chapter Rosa said the bottle of child-use sedatives was empty?
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Old 2009-11-10, 02:07   Link #2980
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I am thinking on separating them and the possibility of giving the letter to Maria without Rosa's collusion. Anyway, for a linkage between Kyrie and Rosa, you know that before the family meeting, the younger siblings and their spouses were plotting together to squeeze money from Krauss. They certainly had met before to discuss strategies and contingency. Therefore Kyrie and Rosa have met beforehand. Kyrie may approach Rosa in private to suggest a plan of using Maria to deliver the letter during the dinner in order to force everyone to find where the gold was. (assuming Kyrie knew the gold's existence). I presume Rosa knew about Kinzo's death through Genji as I enlist him an accomplice of Rosa. Therefore, Kyrie also knew about Kinzo's death but they decided not to let other siblings know since they thought this would probably lead to threatening Krauss being the most effective way and no one would want to solve the epigraph in this case. (I assume Rosa did not want the siblings to go into struggle at all. She wanted everyone to share the gold probably, not to alienating them further.) Getting the ring from Genji, they faked the letters. (Genji agreed to this plan since he wanted the family to concentrate on solving the epigraph as well, not intra-family struggle)
I'll admit that I don't like Rosa as a culprit as she's just way too obvious in Episode 2, but just what evidence is there that 1. those two have collobrated on anything besides extorting Krauss and 2. that Kyrie gives a damn about Maria? (as I know you've stated earlier)
Ryukishi did say the mystery is solvable after 4, and while it's possible he's exaggerating to some degree, I generally can conclude that there should be clues for that. To compare it to the George and Shannon theory, we know that George and Shannon are close, they spend large amounts of time separate from the rest in the name of love, and we know George is willing to go against his entire family for Shannon.
There's nothing indicating Kyrie cares anything towards Maria, there's nothing indicating that Kyrie and Rosa have cooperated any more closely with each other than say, Hideyoshi and Rudolf, and I don't believe for a second that either Rosa or Kyrie (and especially Kyrie) could know where the gold is and keep it secret while passing on that vast wealth and the glory of the Ushiromiya family. I'm sorry, all I see above is "this may have happened, this possibly could have happened", and that's just not good enough.
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