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Old 2012-09-02, 09:43   Link #30321
Patchwork Chimera
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If we're going to a "The meaning of a Name" discussion, let me plug this out of my chest.

I was watching Beelzebub, and seeing something about a girls vs boys quarrell. The words were repeated enough times for me to catch that danshi=boys and Yoshi=girls.

When Kanon tells Jessica his real name in his last moments (don't remember what EP), he says that his name is "Yo...shi...da". Now, I'm NO EXPERT in Japanese, but hearing it so much has given me the idea that "da" is like "I'm". Like in Persona 4 "Kuma-da" means "I'm a bear".

So Kanon was saying 'Yoshi da'. In other words, 'I'm a woman'!
And Jessica went mad and died. XDDD

This is proof #XXXX that Yasu is originally a girl. Lion gender is revealed!

No, really. If we're talking about meaningful names, THIS is the one to talk about. You see? Trying to suppose something based on a name ends in something like 'that'.

But... not sure if 'that' made too much sense or I'm starting to believe my own bullshit.

Extra: Rose symbolism? U serious? So maybe Ryuukishi knows that a red rose means passional love. That explains Rosa's outbusts, Yasu's golden land being full of them, the motive of the crimes, the single minded .... nah, holly shit, he's serious.

Well, everyone can be a troll, you see. It depends on how well you can BS you way around the line of hated troll and 'kinda makes sense' troll. That's why no-one is telling him to shut his trap.

Other edit: I re-read my post and realized that it came out wrong. I seriously believe that all that name thing and rose symbolism is BS... It's hard when you can't use properly a language -_-U
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Old 2012-09-02, 09:54   Link #30322
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Ep 8 Chap 7 is out but the only relevant part about the tricks I could make out watching the pictures is that Shannon and Kanon knows very well how to trick others into believing they're dead with a hole in their chest... which doesn't really come as a surprise for anyone. Funny how to show they're faking Ange merely tickles them... Oh Battler, if only you thought to tickle corpses...

I think there might be the explanation about how to murder someone in a room closed by a chain... but I can be wrong though or it can be one we've already guessed how it worked.

For who's interested in how the plot is developing as it's different from EP 8

Spoiler for Spoilers for Ep 8 chap 7:

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-16 at 16:39.
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Old 2012-09-02, 10:06   Link #30323
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Yeah, I just finished 'Looking at it' , it's really awesome.
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Old 2012-09-02, 10:13   Link #30324
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
Yeah, I just finished 'Looking at it' , it's really awesome.
If only I could read it...
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Old 2012-09-02, 10:40   Link #30325
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
By the way, am I the only one who thinks the whole MariaXSakutarou stuff was a huge parallel to ShannonXKanon?
No. You're not. I've often brought up Sakutarou when people have complained there were no hints for ShKanon and "personality death".

Although, I must admit I didn't buy ShKanon until it was forced down my throat in EP6. It just seemed too far-fetched my first time through. Needless to say, I've warmed to it since.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Are you trolling me, wanderer?
The article I posted defines clearly what a logical reasoning is, and it's not anything close to what you claim.

Besides how can you even remotely claim that a logical fallacy is legit?
What's your problem exactly?
I'm not trolling you. You've been underestimating me and acting like I don't know what I'm talking about when in fact I do, and that's what has been making me mad.

Since you seem to expressing honest confusion now, I'll explain: You don't know what it means for logic to be "valid". I realize you were intending it by it's general meaning, but it's actually a formal term regarding logical inferences. I'll just give some examples:

Spoiler for so as not to take up space for those who don't give a shit:
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Already answered, and besides, that's featherine not Ikuko. The Ikuko on the flashbacks and the Ikuko seen by Yukari doesn't really display the arrogance and air of superiority that are characteristic of Featherine.
I don't remember all that clearly, but I'm pretty sure that at least once in EP8 she called someone a "Child of Man".

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
The words were repeated enough times for me to catch that danshi=boys and Yoshi=girls.
Girls are Joshi, just FYI.

And in KnownNoMore's defense about the Rose thing, even he said it wasn't exactly a very compelling clue, just something he noticed.
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Old 2012-09-02, 10:51   Link #30326
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
The stuff about the name is almost as ridiculous as KnownNoMore's 'Rose Symbolism'.
I forget to include it in my earlier post:

There is a huge difference between KnownNoMore's "Rose Symbolism" and the meaning of "Ikuko".

Using roses as a hint would be a device for the story that has nothing to do with the story itself and is just adressed at the reader. The meaning of "Ikuko" is a whole different matter. In the Ikuko=Yasu theory, at some point Yasu would have to come up with a name for herself:

"Hmmm, how should I name myself?"

This is something that the character had to do herself. She chose the name herself. In the context of Ikuko=Yasu, it has a direct relation to the story. This is less of an "asspull" than the Ikuko=RandomStranger version which basicly claims:

"yea.... so her parents used the name 'many children' for her... and that seeming to be a parallel to Yasu? Meh just a coincidence".
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Old 2012-09-02, 10:56   Link #30327
Patchwork Chimera
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@wanderer: I was trying to make an example of the fragile nature of some affirmation made by someone who believes that everything must have a hidden meaning and how it's all better if that someone twists the inconveniences to make their reasoning fit some parameter. I actually don't know sh^t about japanese, but the logic sounded cool so why not? That's what's been happening over here anyway.

So Joshi sounds exactly like Yoshi, eh, what? Troll logic still valid. Because, as your example with the bible, I freaking said so. And, as your example with the bible, you acknowledge things like that.

That's not how a debate works, dude, and no matter how many circular logic you use to try justifying, it doesn't make it any less logical fallacy that it was before. Nobody here is eating it.
Now I'm not saying that you're a troll and everything you say is BS, in fact you bring some good points, but at least give it a rest about what is and is not logic.
--
About Ikuko to GreyZone: Try and ask Rudolf where the hell Battler came from. Did he know he was going to be trapped in an endless fight with a witch? How about Maria? She took your point of view about names and ended believing herself to be daughter of the holy spirit. That's a precedent about what overthinking a character's name does to one...
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-02 at 11:54.
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Old 2012-09-02, 11:52   Link #30328
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I understand what you mean, as most of it is speculation. However since no real proof exists in Umineko, "clues" are all we can use.
Okay, I will agree my wording was wrong here, since there's no real 'evidence' in Umineko. Regardless, there is still a huge difference between 'clues' and 'assumptions'. And as said in my previous post, most points of argument you've shown are only 'clues' if we are willing to make assumptions. None of it really is a 'narrative' hint which could provide your theory enough stability.

Quote:
Also: Please provide an example for the following scenario:

How would Yasu act, if Battler came 1 year earlier?

I still see no alternative to my theory to explain what she would do if he fulfilled his promise "in time" yet, because "she cannot leave the island as Beatrice".
The hell.... Maybe I can't say for sure, but that's far from meaning Yasu is Ikuko.

One thing is sure: The duel wouldn't have come to a conclusive result yet, so her choice might have been a vastly different one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
For who's interested in how the plot is developing as it's different from EP 8

Spoiler for Spoilers for Ep 8 chap 7:
EP8 manga version must be awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I forget to include it in my earlier post:

There is a huge difference between KnownNoMore's "Rose Symbolism" and the meaning of "Ikuko".

Using roses as a hint would be a device for the story that has nothing to do with the story itself and is just adressed at the reader.
Well, you got a point here, that's why I said 'almost', but anyway, using the NAME of all things as a piece of argument when you really don't have anything more solid than that boils down to the same thing.

Quote:
The meaning of "Ikuko" is a whole different matter. In the Ikuko=Yasu theory, at some point Yasu would have to come up with a name for herself:

"Hmmm, how should I name myself?"

This is something that the character had to do herself. She chose the name herself. In the context of Ikuko=Yasu, it has a direct relation to the story. This is less of an "asspull" than the Ikuko=RandomStranger version which basicly claims:

"yea.... so her parents used the name 'many children' for her... and that seeming to be a parallel to Yasu? Meh just a coincidence".
Okay, first, to conclude all that just from the name is at best 'jumping into conclusions'. Hell, even if 'many children' is an awesome way to describe Yasu, it's not necessary that it is a metaphor that talks about her.

Or maybe it is. Maybe Ryukishi07 chose that name because Ikuko continues Yasu's tale by writing forgeries. That seems like a more natural conclusion that : "SHIT! Her name's meaning is kinda tracing back to her, they're the same person!". Reasoning of that level would be like saying "Shannon and Kanon have to be the same person! They look awfully similar and their names sound almost the same!".

You see? It doesn't really work this way, does it? That's what I mean when saying 'evidence'. The same point could have a vastly different effect if it was soemthing like "Shannon and Kanon have to be the same person! They're never seen together by anyone except servants who have an unreliable perspective!". Obviously we understand which of the two "proves" the point.
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Old 2012-09-02, 11:53   Link #30329
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I just realized something:

Ushiromiya Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's son.This refers to Asumu's stillborn child. It could also make sure that "Battler" can die, but because it only refers to the stillborn child, he can still be alive. The same way, "Beatrice" can be dead. You can even Pick from 2 generations in this case.





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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
About Ikuko to gray zone: Try and ask Rudolf where the hell Battler came from. Did he know he was going to be trapped in an endless fight with a witch? How about Maria? She took your point of view about names and ended believing herself to be daughter of the holy spirit. That's a precedent about what overthinking a character's name does to one...
Ok then i guess the Ikuko=RandomStranger theory does not stand as bad as i pointed out. This, however, does in no way affect the Ikuko=Yasu version, because being given a name as a child is different from making up a name yourself.
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Old 2012-09-02, 12:05   Link #30330
Patchwork Chimera
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Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu's son.
Cannot unsee! O__OU

So, Battler's mom is Asumu's son. Asumu is the grandmother of a transgender mother of Battler?
Wait, my english is that bad? Where did that thing came from? Am I misunderstanding it?

Quote:
Ok then i guess the Ikuko=RandomStranger theory does not stand as bad as i pointed out. This, however, does in no way affect the Ikuko=Yasu version, because being given a name as a child is different from making up a name yourself
I see where you're coming from. In other words, one tend to search for a meaningfull word to use it as an alias. But there's other way to see it: could be something symbolic from Ryuukishi07 to the public, how Ikuko continues Yasu's legacy with her forgeries. Doesn't mean she's taken the name.
Then we have how Ikuko didn't know Tohya was Battler still later. Wouldn't Yasu recognize her dream man if she found him in the street?
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Old 2012-09-02, 12:08   Link #30331
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
About Ikuko to gray zone: Try and ask Rudolf where the hell Battler came from. Did he know he was going to be trapped in an endless fight with a witch? How about Maria? She took your point of view about names and ended believing herself to be daughter of the holy spirit. That's a precedent about what overthinking a character's name does to one...
Actually the point would be asking Ryukishi and yes, we'll proabbly hear that Battler was chosen because it was a cool name for someone engaged in a battle.
Same for Maria. Or Rudolf who plays playboy like Rodolfo Valentino. With Ange likely they wanted to use the quote that she can look like an Angel and Eva might be Eva because she's the first female while Rosa gets the name because the sentence 'Maria's Rose' get a more interesting meaning.

And there are many other chara who have a name because that name works for the setting they're in (though I don't know if them all can work).

It's rather common really in anime and manga to have a character being given a name by his author because the name will fit with how the character is or what he will do and that's why in some series the English character page carefully report the translations of names and surnames as something meaningful.

Of course the parents of said characters had no idea of all this. It's the author that uses the names as Easter eggs.

So yes, it makes sense to wonder if, when Ryukishi choses Ikuko as the name for the person saving Battler, he was thinking at it as a hint for Ikuko's true identity or if he just chosed it as a red herring.

Honestly I doubt he chose it at random, though the WHY he chose it is up to personal interpretation.

For all we know Yasu might not be the real kid of Beatrice 2 but she could have persuaded herself she is, while the real kid would be Ikuko... sort of like Battler isn't Asumu's kid but he thought so.

And no, I don't believe in this. It's just another example on how much we can stretch reasoning since the boundaries aren't that binding.

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EP8 manga version must be awesome.
It is. I was honestly very wary of it but so far I'm loving it. That's exactly how I wanted the visual novel to be.
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Old 2012-09-02, 12:17   Link #30332
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
For all we know Yasu might not be the real kid of Beatrice 2 but she could have persuaded herself she is, while the real kid would be Ikuko... sort of like Battler isn't Asumu's kid but he thought so.
Now, that theory I like (even if I don't believe it in the slightest). Can you imagine? It would be, like.... the most hillarious/ironic misunderstanding in the world.
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Old 2012-09-02, 12:50   Link #30333
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Now, that theory I like (even if I don't believe it in the slightest). Can you imagine? It would be, like.... the most hillarious/ironic misunderstanding in the world.
Yes, I don't believe it to be true either, after all Yasu complained in red about being saved and receiving a horrible wound... though she didn't say when or how she received it so we can force a blue truth that says she wasn't talking about that specific fall from the cliff... or that Genji and Co lied to her to get her to play a role in her little mummery and she reacted badly... again, not that I believe in any of this, it's just funny to work out solutions... but yes, if it were to be true it would be... interesting...
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Old 2012-09-02, 13:42   Link #30334
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By the way, am I the only one who thinks the whole MariaXSakutarou stuff was a huge parallel to ShannonXKanon? That was basically my first reason for starting to doubt Kanon's existence.
Half the readers did, and the other half tried to deny it because it had to do with shkanon.
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Old 2012-09-02, 14:10   Link #30335
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I know you aren't being aggressive, but your posts always sound so angry.
I apologize; I'm just a blunt person who doesn't sugar-coat anything the slightest bit. My real life kind of forces me into that attitude so it's hard to turn it off.

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Well now, "completely". He's wrong, but a good part of his story can be explained. If he made that statement it means that at least he tried to write his story that way. To say that nothing in Umineko is properly hinted would be an enormous bullshit.
So in the end, if it is apparent, easily deducible and it doesn't conflict with anything, what is the reason to think it's a lie?
Look, "solvable" is a binary definition. Either it is or it isn't. If he only "kinda" made it solvable, it's not good enough.

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But it is. Maybe you haven't read all the comments.
It's not. It's a very shaky metaphor based on your interpretations of what people mean by things, perhaps, but you and I don't seem to be getting the same intentions out of people's comments and I've known you to wildly miss people's intentions before.

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Plot twists are never mentioned in the premise, that would defy the whole idea of a plot twist. The sixth sense, the others, the usual suspects, fight club. None of them tell you from the beginning what the story is actually about in the premise. It doesn't change that the premise of the story is entirely based on that plot twist, you just learn it at the very end.
Premises can be false. In literary analysis terms, the 'premise' is the situation the reader is introduced to. It is Point A.

"Battler is alive and he's an amnesiac writing stories" is not the premise; I mean, shit, it's lateness aside it's really only relevant to Ange's subplot and to point out that, yes, there is another survivor, hurray.

It's basically the ending.
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Old 2012-09-02, 14:51   Link #30336
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For all we know Yasu might not be the real kid of Beatrice 2 but she could have persuaded herself she is, while the real kid would be Ikuko... sort of like Battler isn't Asumu's kid but he thought so.
That's pretty cool, you know. Straight to headcanon, because is so crazy and bitter even Bernkastel would get a laugh out of it. Something like:

"The real Beatrice III died before being born, and you are a random fukuin orphan that has a terrible injury in a vague part of your body. All that angst, all that pain and the deaths of all the family... did you know, Yasu? You are not even Beatrice's daughter. *Cackle cackle*"

"I am-- I am... Kinzo's ughr.. Beatrice's daughter... no! It can't be!"

"Now you know what Battler felt! You are not an Ushiromiya! Kyahahahahaa!"

And all the witches laughed like mad.

Then, as anything family related in the gameboard, Yasu would realize that who her father was is of no consquence... because she is already dead and the angst about her parents wasn't as problematic as the messy lovelife she had. It actually was a good thing, since now she wasn't into some incestuous shit with her supposed family. And that, the not-incest thing, is what makes it a golden truth in my head. Long life Non-Ushiromiya Yasu!

And yeah, maybe IRL all that coincidence about names would be crazy, but in his work it might have a meaning. Doesn't mean that the meaning is something that can be decided just because it sounds pretty. Maybe Ryuu was thiking about reindeers when he named Rudolf, who knows?
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Old 2012-09-02, 14:55   Link #30337
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Cannot unsee! O__OU

So, Battler's mom is Asumu's son. Asumu is the grandmother of a transgender mother of Battler?
Wait, my english is that bad? Where did that thing came from? Am I misunderstanding it?
whoops. Yes a fatal mistake from me xD actually i ment Ushiromiya Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's son.
but at the same time I wanted to write "Ushiromiya Asumu is Ushiromiya Battler's mother".... and then... well i mixed them up xD


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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
I see where you're coming from. In other words, one tend to search for a meaningfull word to use it as an alias. But there's other way to see it: could be something symbolic from Ryuukishi07 to the public, how Ikuko continues Yasu's legacy with her forgeries. Doesn't mean she's taken the name.
Then we have how Ikuko didn't know Tohya was Battler still later. Wouldn't Yasu recognize her dream man if she found him in the street?
Actually... I don't think the scenes we saw about Tohya being hit by a car played out like shown.

My problem is, if we take everything with Ikuko=RandomStranger, it would play out like that:

"Boom, Rokkenjima exploded, only survivors: Eva, Battler. Eva waits in Kuwardorion and is found later, while Battler escaped by boat. He reaches land looks for some kind of civilization and then just randomly gets hit by a car and gets amnesia. Then 'coincidently' the driver of that car, instead of calling the police and ambulance, just 'finds him cute and wants to take him home' and actually does just that. Then she creates a new identity for Battler and makes money from his Rokkenjima forgeries".


Well and a Ikuko=Yasuda scenario as i see it (there could be other possible versions of this theory) could go like that:

"In Rokkenjima Battler got injured after Eva escaped for Kuwadorian, Yasu took Battler to the boat. Then they escaped to the house she has secretly ordered to be built in the last 2 years. There she realizes that Battler has amnesia. At first she tries to make him remember, but soon gets confronted with the fact that every attempt to make him remember gives him huge headaches. She creates a new identity for herself and for Battler (Battler and Beatrice 'die'), lets him be checked secretly by a surgeon and gets to know about the brain injury. Following that Ikuko makes the decision to make Battler forget about the incident by lying to him and telling him fake stories (the ones we see in EP8). After Tohya stabilizes, she tries to make him remember by using the forgeries, so she suggests to him to do a "roleplaying" of the rokkenjima incident under the excuse that she needs it as inspiration for her own writing (Meta scenes). First she uses the 2 message bottles, that she threw into the sea shortly before, or after the incident, after they were made public. Then she writes banquet. After the "roleplaying", she published it and is surprised that it became a 'best seller'. Then she wrote Alliance and End (while End was based on a witch hunter forgery). After End Tohya remembered what happened at the incident, but it was not subtle enough and Tohya's brain injury became a big problem which led to the operation, which paralyzed his legs. But because Tohya remembered the past, he also realized that Ikuko is Yasu and finally understands her. But instead of telling it to Ikuko outright, he decided to tell her by making his own forgery which he calls Dawn. As I think, neither Ikuko nor Tohya have anything to do with the creation of Requiem and Twilight. Later, to not confuse Yukari too much, they decide to hide the fact that Ikuko is Yasu."

Well I think this scenario can still be polished a lot, but this is the general direction in which I interpreted what happened after the Rokkenjima incident.
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Old 2012-09-02, 16:11   Link #30338
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
That's pretty cool, you know. Straight to headcanon, because is so crazy and bitter even Bernkastel would get a laugh out of it.
Actually the first part (Yasu not being Beato 3) was a theory discussed some time ago... can't remember who deserves the credits for it but if you feel like checking you'll also find the reasoning behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
And yeah, maybe IRL all that coincidence about names would be crazy, but in his work it might have a meaning. Doesn't mean that the meaning is something that can be decided just because it sounds pretty. Maybe Ryuu was thiking about reindeers when he named Rudolf, who knows?
Honestly, how much chances there are that he's named after the reindeer? I know you're joking but the point is when a writer picks a name with a meaning it's usually due to a logic association, a connection that's supposed to be easy for a reader to make.

You hear the name Rudolf, hear how his character is and connect him to Rodolfo Valentino pretty easily.

Now yes, it could be a coincidence if it wasn't for the fact that in Umineko there's plenty of them and some of them are really pretty obvious.

Ryukishi knows readers, expecially Japanese ones who're more used to this and can easier find the connections, are going to catch up on this.

Chosing a name that, for them, has a rather obvious meaning and that can be used to make a certain connection has to have a purpose.

It's either a hint or a red herring otherwise he would have picked up one who really meant nothing or, even better, Ikuko would have ended up nameless and meaningless.

It's different for us. Most of the western names doesn't have an obvious meaning so, if we've to write a tale, often we end up chosing them because they're cute and if we call the prince... let's say, Gilbert, it's because we like the sound of it, not because of its meaning (noble youth) but it's hard to think that Ryukishi would chose Ikuko at random without even figuring that his readers might wonder what he was trying to say with that name with that meaning.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Actually... I don't think the scenes we saw about Tohya being hit by a car played out like shown.
Actually, since Ikuko claimed she wasn't the one who hit Tohya with her car it might even be no one did. Battler was wounded due to the explosion or something and when he reached the land he was in a confusional state. He ended up on a street and believed a car hit him by logical association... though maybe the doctor could confirm if he really was hit by a car... oh well, the doctor is already being bribed by Ikuko ala Kinzo's style so I don't know if Battler can trust him... but Ikuko, be her a random stranger or Yasu would likely know if he was hit by a car.

But yes, car put aside, the whole a random stranger pick him up as if he was an abandoned kitten and hides and take care of him feels forced.

If that's the truth it's a bad plot twist.
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Old 2012-09-02, 17:51   Link #30339
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
@wanderer: I was trying to make an example of the fragile nature of some affirmation made by someone who believes that everything must have a hidden meaning and how it's all better if that someone twists the inconveniences to make their reasoning fit some parameter. I actually don't know sh^t about japanese, but the logic sounded cool so why not? That's what's been happening over here anyway.

So Joshi sounds exactly like Yoshi, eh, what? Troll logic still valid.
I just saw a misunderstanding and corrected it. It had nothing to do with your troll-logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Because, as your example with the bible, I freaking said so. And, as your example with the bible, you acknowledge things like that.

That's not how a debate works, dude, and no matter how many circular logic you use to try justifying, it doesn't make it any less logical fallacy that it was before. Nobody here is eating it.
Circular logic is OK as long as you're not using it to prove the premise, but to demonstrate the logical steps between the premise, should you accept it, and the conclusion (which is also the premise). It's basically shows the implications of a hypothetical.

And I don't acknowledge what Biblical apologists say about the veracity of the Bible. What I acknowledge is that I cannot prove to them that the Bible is false if they assume by definition that it isn't.

Basically, it means trying to prove the Bible is wrong to people like that is a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
"Boom, Rokkenjima exploded, only survivors: Eva, Battler. Eva waits in Kuwardorion and is found later, while Battler escaped by boat. He reaches land looks for some kind of civilization and then just randomly gets hit by a car and gets amnesia. Then 'coincidently' the driver of that car, instead of calling the police and ambulance, just 'finds him cute and wants to take him home' and actually does just that. Then she creates a new identity for Battler and makes money from his Rokkenjima forgeries".
Hachijou_Ikuko=Ryuugu_Rena Theory?

I get it. Touya is Kenta-Kun.
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Old 2012-09-02, 19:19   Link #30340
Kealym
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Half the readers did, and the other half tried to deny it because it had to do with shkanon.
Thing is, Sakutarou was never presented as being a normal human boy, living his little ol' normal human life. He was CLEARLY an extrapolation of Maria's imagination, and the occasional indulgence from those who recognized that. If, say, Sakutarou were shown as being enrolled in school, but only ... maybe, the teacher and Maria's best friend ever responded to his dialogue, it'd hld a bit more weight as a parallel. Not denying that a parallel exists, but it's a pretty "eh" one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
whoops. Yes a fatal mistake from me xD actually i ment Ushiromiya Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's son.
but at the same time I wanted to write "Ushiromiya Asumu is Ushiromiya Battler's mother".... and then... well i mixed them up xD
Y'know what I just realized, Battler's proposition that he was the MF19YAO used Rudolf's curious hints as a clue. So in End, Battler's alternate solution is this weird mish-mash where he's actually the baby Natsuhi rejected ... but ended up being raised as Rudolf's child, and Rudolf KNOWS all this, and has to tell Battler at some point, oh my goodness it's weird.





Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
My problem is, if we take everything with Ikuko=RandomStranger, it would play out like that:

"Boom, Rokkenjima exploded, only survivors: Eva, Battler. Eva waits in Kuwardorion and is found later, while Battler escaped by boat. He reaches land looks for some kind of civilization and then just randomly gets hit by a car and gets amnesia. Then 'coincidently' the driver of that car, instead of calling the police and ambulance, just 'finds him cute and wants to take him home' and actually does just that. Then she creates a new identity for Battler and makes money from his Rokkenjima forgeries".
Well not exactly. We're told that Battler's memory problems are from when he was drowning for a time, in the sea. The car accident, assuming there was one, caused his immobility for a time, which naturally returned, AND Ikuko is said to not be the one who hit him. She seemed to have called that doctor the first night, or even the morning after, because at that point she hadn't even introduced herself to Tohya, and she doesn't exactly live in a large city. Though I agree the decision to keep it "off the books" is extremely sketchy.

Also, it's Tohya who creates his new identity, since he's apparently incapable of "being" Battler ever again. Ikuko just named him

I would also mention that your Ikuko=Yasu scenario still pretty much amounts to an amnesiac Battler being kidnapped and used as a creative cash cow. And is counter to how we're told that he actually was highly against ever getting that operation.

Also, I think people put too much stock in the fact that Yukari described Ikuko as feeling very youthful and un-aging. After all, she was ALSO described as "far older than me", and Yukari is at least 38 when they meet. Hell, in 1986, Ikuko had that extreme little reaction to thinking Battler saying she looked 18. I don't find it hard to think she just aged really well ("it wasn't because she was good with makeup or dressed like a younger woman") and had a certain jubilance you mught not expect from a woman her age.
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