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Old 2009-11-10, 16:11   Link #3021
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Was it suggested that Ep1 is exactly what the letter in the bottle suggests happened? Or is what we are given in Ep1 what happened and Ep2 is what was in the bottle? Or was what was in the bottle something completely different?

If it was what happened in Ep1...than Ep1 is false...or what the original plan was. Thus it could be used to find out who the original culprit was..but the other Episodes show ways that it went wrong.

If what was in the bottle was Ep2, then that was the orignal plan, and what happened in Ep1 was what actually happened instead. If anything between the five games is actually related to one another.


Alternately: Are there multiple bottle with different stories?
I think we can assume the two messages are not the only ones. Beatrice must have wrote a lot of them.

We don't know much of their content except:

1) They describe the two days of the family meeting in 1986
2) They say 18 people are attending this meeting
3) Everyone dies in the end
4) They describe a gruesome serial murder following the witch's epitaph, and everything is done by the golden witch through magic
5) The stories differ from one another


Many people believe that these stories describe the games we have seen. However Episode3 is ruled out because Eva survives there (see point 3).
What I've never seen so far is someone pointing out that Episode1 should also be ruled out since it doesn't show how murders were done through magic at all (see point 4). You'd need to think one of the messages describes episode1 with the addition of magic scenes that we have never seen. That seems kinda far fetched to me.
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Old 2009-11-10, 16:17   Link #3022
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Kyrie being the mastermind is highly likely. She's very smart, ahead of the game in some ways (realizing Kinzo is dead and the very first person to even bring it up). But honestly the idea of:

1) Her caring more about Maria than Ange
2) Not loving Rudolf and Ange (battler I can sorta get, but it's still a long shot)
3) Her sister actually being on the island

Just doesn't sit right with me. 1 is self-explanatory: Ange is the daughter she's wanted for a long time (what with her first child dying before he even got a chance to live) and I can't see her just not caring about Ange. Ange herself said Kyrie was an attentive mother, who gave her thoughtful gifts and even let her see Battler.

2 is just crazy to me. It goes against characterization. Kyrie has been with Rudolf romantically for almost 18 years and has probably know him a couple years longer than that. If she didn't love him she wouldn't have been so devoted to him to even be around him after he cheated on her. People say that she only got with him because of the declining Sumadera family but that just lowers her to a selfish gold digger - again completely out of her character.

With 3 you have to consider the following:

-Kasumi somehow got Kyrie's corpse to the island before Oct 4th without anybody noticing her or the corpse beforehand.

-Nobody, not even Kyrie's husband and partner of almost 20 years, noticed something different with Kyrie. This is major because Kyrie and Kasumi are not identical twin sisters like Mion and Shion were in Higurashi and it's clearly stated Kyrie is older. There are major personality differences too, which means Kasumi would need to be a pretty convincing actress to pull Kyrie off well enough that Kyrie's own family is fooled. Their hair color is also different (Kyrie's hair bridges on an almost pale blue, while Kasumi has pure white).

-Kasumi's ENTIRE reason for going after Ange was to kill her as revenge against Kyrie. So why would she chase so vehemently after Ange if she exacted her revenge and killed Kyrie. She has nothing to do with the Ushiromiya family and didn't even seem to care about Eva too much - just Ange.


Now can Kyrie be the mastermind? Sure. She's cunning, doesn't seem to hold much regrets (while Rudolf apologized to Battler for having an affair, Kyrie pretty much says 'bitch got what she deserved') and it's likely she designed the closed rooms we see, as they are tricky and complicated meaning someone of high intelligence would have to make them work.

Kyrie is probably the only one of the four mothers that has a college education as well - Eva was denied the right to go to college, Natsuhi was trying to get pregnant for 12 years. Rosa might have it since she was around that age during the 70's, but it can't be said for sure. Kyrie probably has one because of her status as the next Sumadera successor she would need to be well educated on economics and politics in order to lead the family in the business world.

But the above reasons are highly unlikely. Although I do agree that Kyrie being involved in the murders is more likely than Jessica being involved in them
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Old 2009-11-10, 16:59   Link #3023
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Kyrie being the mastermind is highly likely. She's very smart, ahead of the game in some ways (realizing Kinzo is dead and the very first person to even bring it up). But honestly the idea of:

1) Her caring more about Maria than Ange
2) Not loving Rudolf and Ange (battler I can sorta get, but it's still a long shot)
3) Her sister actually being on the island

Just doesn't sit right with me. 1 is self-explanatory: Ange is the daughter she's wanted for a long time (what with her first child dying before he even got a chance to live) and I can't see her just not caring about Ange. Ange herself said Kyrie was an attentive mother, who gave her thoughtful gifts and even let her see Battler.

2 is just crazy to me. It goes against characterization. Kyrie has been with Rudolf romantically for almost 18 years and has probably know him a couple years longer than that. If she didn't love him she wouldn't have been so devoted to him to even be around him after he cheated on her. People say that she only got with him because of the declining Sumadera family but that just lowers her to a selfish gold digger - again completely out of her character.

With 3 you have to consider the following:

-Kasumi somehow got Kyrie's corpse to the island before Oct 4th without anybody noticing her or the corpse beforehand.

-Nobody, not even Kyrie's husband and partner of almost 20 years, noticed something different with Kyrie. This is major because Kyrie and Kasumi are not identical twin sisters like Mion and Shion were in Higurashi and it's clearly stated Kyrie is older. There are major personality differences too, which means Kasumi would need to be a pretty convincing actress to pull Kyrie off well enough that Kyrie's own family is fooled. Their hair color is also different (Kyrie's hair bridges on an almost pale blue, while Kasumi has pure white).

-Kasumi's ENTIRE reason for going after Ange was to kill her as revenge against Kyrie. So why would she chase so vehemently after Ange if she exacted her revenge and killed Kyrie. She has nothing to do with the Ushiromiya family and didn't even seem to care about Eva too much - just Ange.


Now can Kyrie be the mastermind? Sure. She's cunning, doesn't seem to hold much regrets (while Rudolf apologized to Battler for having an affair, Kyrie pretty much says 'bitch got what she deserved') and it's likely she designed the closed rooms we see, as they are tricky and complicated meaning someone of high intelligence would have to make them work.

Kyrie is probably the only one of the four mothers that has a college education as well - Eva was denied the right to go to college, Natsuhi was trying to get pregnant for 12 years. Rosa might have it since she was around that age during the 70's, but it can't be said for sure. Kyrie probably has one because of her status as the next Sumadera successor she would need to be well educated on economics and politics in order to lead the family in the business world.

But the above reasons are highly unlikely. Although I do agree that Kyrie being involved in the murders is more likely than Jessica being involved in them
I would agree with you and she might've been the highest suspect for me, except that she dies too early. I can't really imagine how the murders can go on if the mastermind dies at the first twilight, maybe if they were already set in motion, but not at the very first...

None of the siblings can really be the lone mastermind because of this, and that's the reason I made a theory were everyone is in on it (so that the survivor of the 4 is always the culprit).

I can't believe that the children are culprits (maybe except for George in very special circumstances)... It is way too stupid to think that Jessica, Maria or Battler could ever kill so many people at the same time.

The servants are highly suspicious, so are Nanjo, but they lack a real motive (except for the gold).

Shannon and Kanon COULD be the culprits, but again, needs special circumstances and won't work in all games.

The culprit MUST in my opinion be a group of people. The servants are too "furniture" to really be culprits on their own, so I would go for the sibling group theory i've stated before or a Jessica, George, Shannon and Kanon culprit theory... The only real mastermind I can imagine is Nanjo... if not him, then everything depends on the situation in each game as to who becomes the mastermind.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:15   Link #3024
Marion
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
I would agree with you and she might've been the highest suspect for me, except that she dies too early. I can't really imagine how the murders can go on if the mastermind dies at the first twilight, maybe if they were already set in motion, but not at the very first...

None of the siblings can really be the lone mastermind because of this, and that's the reason I made a theory were everyone is in on it (so that the survivor of the 4 is always the culprit).

I can't believe that the children are culprits (maybe except for George in very special circumstances)... It is way too stupid to think that Jessica, Maria or Battler could ever kill so many people at the same time.

The servants are highly suspicious, so are Nanjo, but they lack a real motive (except for the gold).

Shannon and Kanon COULD be the culprits, but again, needs special circumstances and won't work in all games.

The culprit MUST in my opinion be a group of people. The servants are too "furniture" to really be culprits on their own, so I would go for the sibling group theory i've stated before or a Jessica, George, Shannon and Kanon culprit theory... The only real mastermind I can imagine is Nanjo... if not him, then everything depends on the situation in each game as to who becomes the mastermind.
We're talking about mastermind. Kyrie doesn't nescessarily have to kill anyone, just layout the plans for what will happen, so even if she does die then those plans are carried out.

I have a huge problem though with one of the cousins being the mastermind.

Battler - No. EP 5 agrees.
Maria - She's a little kid and she isn't too bright to begin with, so no.
Jessica - Can you honestly tell me she would kill the entire family? It's completely out of the characterization we've been given about her. Why would she do that? And I swear if it's because someone tells me they won't let her be with Kanon-kun I'm just gonna.

The only one of the cousins I can see being involved in the murders legit is George.

As for Nanjo - I doubt it tbh. Accomplice sure, but he doesn't seem like the type who would plan out a mass murder.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:15   Link #3025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Kyrie being the mastermind is highly likely. She's very smart, ahead of the game in some ways (realizing Kinzo is dead and the very first person to even bring it up). But honestly the idea of:

1) Her caring more about Maria than Ange
2) Not loving Rudolf and Ange (battler I can sorta get, but it's still a long shot)
3) Her sister actually being on the island

Just doesn't sit right with me. 1 is self-explanatory: Ange is the daughter she's wanted for a long time (what with her first child dying before he even got a chance to live) and I can't see her just not caring about Ange. Ange herself said Kyrie was an attentive mother, who gave her thoughtful gifts and even let her see Battler.

2 is just crazy to me. It goes against characterization. Kyrie has been with Rudolf romantically for almost 18 years and has probably know him a couple years longer than that. If she didn't love him she wouldn't have been so devoted to him to even be around him after he cheated on her. People say that she only got with him because of the declining Sumadera family but that just lowers her to a selfish gold digger - again completely out of her character.

With 3 you have to consider the following:

-Kasumi somehow got Kyrie's corpse to the island before Oct 4th without anybody noticing her or the corpse beforehand.

-Nobody, not even Kyrie's husband and partner of almost 20 years, noticed something different with Kyrie. This is major because Kyrie and Kasumi are not identical twin sisters like Mion and Shion were in Higurashi and it's clearly stated Kyrie is older. There are major personality differences too, which means Kasumi would need to be a pretty convincing actress to pull Kyrie off well enough that Kyrie's own family is fooled. Their hair color is also different (Kyrie's hair bridges on an almost pale blue, while Kasumi has pure white).

-Kasumi's ENTIRE reason for going after Ange was to kill her as revenge against Kyrie. So why would she chase so vehemently after Ange if she exacted her revenge and killed Kyrie. She has nothing to do with the Ushiromiya family and didn't even seem to care about Eva too much - just Ange.


Now can Kyrie be the mastermind? Sure. She's cunning, doesn't seem to hold much regrets (while Rudolf apologized to Battler for having an affair, Kyrie pretty much says 'bitch got what she deserved') and it's likely she designed the closed rooms we see, as they are tricky and complicated meaning someone of high intelligence would have to make them work.

Kyrie is probably the only one of the four mothers that has a college education as well - Eva was denied the right to go to college, Natsuhi was trying to get pregnant for 12 years. Rosa might have it since she was around that age during the 70's, but it can't be said for sure. Kyrie probably has one because of her status as the next Sumadera successor she would need to be well educated on economics and politics in order to lead the family in the business world.

But the above reasons are highly unlikely. Although I do agree that Kyrie being involved in the murders is more likely than Jessica being involved in them

Honestly, I still think that the Kyrie who was Sumadera Kyrie, aka Kasumi's sister, died 6 years ago, and Asumu was the one who took her place. It has never been stated in red that Asumu herself is dead, right?
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:19   Link #3026
Marion
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Honestly, I still think that the Kyrie who was Sumadera Kyrie, aka Kasumi's sister, died 6 years ago, and Asumu was the one who took her place. It has never been stated in red that Asumu herself is dead, right?
So you only trust red

Why would Rudolf and Battler lie about Asumu being dead. Plus I think Rudolf would notice fairly quickly that Kyrie is acting off. It doesn't really make sense.

Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:22   Link #3027
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Maria - She's a little kid and she isn't too bright to begin with, so no.
Uhhh... Maria is smarter than any nine-year-old I've ever met.

Not genius-level intellect but definitely smart.

Still not the mastermind though.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:25   Link #3028
Marion
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Uhhh... Maria is smarter than any nine-year-old I've ever met.

Not genius-level intellect but definitely smart.

Still not the mastermind though.
Not really. The game says she only really excels in the occult and some other areas (I can't remember, but there was one mentioned in EP 4) but her grades are generally below average.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:27   Link #3029
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Not really. The game says she only really excels in the occult and some other areas (I can't remember, but there was one mentioned in EP 4) but her grades are generally below average.
Her grades are below average because she's both eccentric and bullied every day at school. Nor does she probably care about grades.

Listen to her talk when in crazy-mode. She uses diction like no nine-year-old ever could. She's terrifyingly smart.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:31   Link #3030
Marion
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Her grades are below average because she's both eccentric and bullied every day at school. Nor does she probably care about grades.

Listen to her talk when in crazy-mode. She uses diction like no nine-year-old ever could. She's terrifyingly smart.
How does being eccentric and bullied lead to bad grades? Most kids that I see bullied are the smartest ones in the class.

But whenever she does that it's always about the occult, which I said she excels at.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:36   Link #3031
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Jessica - Can you honestly tell me she would kill the entire family? It's completely out of the characterization we've been given about her. Why would she do that? And I swear if it's because someone tells me they won't let her be with Kanon-kun I'm just gonna.
I have the theory kicking around that Jessica is insane due to the entire Kinzo-Beatrice situation, and is at least the one we see as the living Beatrice (if she isn't the murderer herself), acting in conjunction with at least some servants and furniture.

Though admittedly the theories I'm hearing point me to Shannon more now, but it at least fits from a storytelling perspective.

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How does being eccentric and bullied lead to bad grades? Most kids that I see bullied are the smartest ones in the class.

But whenever she does that it's always about the occult, which I said she excels at.
I think it's fair to say Maria is at least mildly autistic (or suffering from some type of mental disorder). Fixation and excelling in a single topic in expense of everything else is a massive hint.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:37   Link #3032
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I've heard some fairly well spoken nine year olds. However they only really talk like that if it is on a subject that really interests them and they've amassed a lot of knowledge on that topic...and usually that topic alone.

Maria's normal mode seems to be to act cute, perhaps for attention from her mother and perhaps just un general. however she rarely is going off on any subject matter unless it comes to the occult, then she's like an encyclopedia. Add to this she's probably being trained by "Beatrice" so her manner when talking about it may be like "Beatrice's". No not the weird laughing and such...but the manner of speech.

Who on the island talks like Maria in crazy-mode..minus the actual crazy?
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:38   Link #3033
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I have the theory kicking around that Jessica is insane due to the entire Kinzo-Beatrice situation, and is at least the one we see as the living Beatrice (if she isn't the murderer herself), acting in conjunction with at least some servants and furniture.

Though admittedly the theories I'm hearing point me to Shannon more now, but it at least fits from a storytelling perspective.
The entire Jessitrice theory to me isn't really too amazing. The 'Shannon pretending to be Beato' theory makes some sense, because she has opportunities to dress up as Beato and give Maria the letters. But Jessitrice is just "blond and similar hair styles" for the most part

@Itherko: Well no one has ever really went into 'crazy' mode on the island, besides a dead Kinzo.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:41   Link #3034
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
How does being eccentric and bullied lead to bad grades? Most kids that I see bullied are the smartest ones in the class.
Historically, members of minority groups that are ostracized tend to do incredibly poorly in school as a result of simply refusing to care about a school system that won't support them.

I imagine Maria to be much the same. Furthermore, her only interest IS in the occult, you're right. She probably doesn't try at all in school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I've heard some fairly well spoken nine year olds. However they only really talk like that if it is on a subject that really interests them and they've amassed a lot of knowledge on that topic...and usually that topic alone.
True, which doesn't make her stupid. It makes her focused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Who on the island talks like Maria in crazy-mode..minus the actual crazy?
Beatrice, of course.

Kihihihihihihi.

So you're suggesting Maria's Beatrice actually talks like that to her. Interesting... Although, I always thought Maria's crazy-mode was the result of her snapping after Sakutaro's death.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:41   Link #3035
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The entire Jessitrice theory to me isn't really too amazing. The 'Shannon pretending to be Beato' theory makes some sense, because she has opportunities to dress up as Beato and give Maria the letters. But Jessitrice is just "blond and similar hair styles" for the most part

@Itherko: Well no one has ever really went into 'crazy' mode on the island, besides a dead Kinzo.
Also similar clothes, and circumstances in Ep4 with Battler seeing a living "Beatrice" in prime circumstance to how Jessica's body is found.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:46   Link #3036
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Also similar clothes, and circumstances in Ep4 with Battler seeing a living "Beatrice" in prime circumstance to how Jessica's body is found.
But honestly I don't see it happening. Jessitrice is a theory based purely on looks.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:51   Link #3037
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Someone has been going around before October 4th late at night. Gohda records it, and suggests that the attire is unlike what Natsuhi would wear or allow Jessica to wear walking around the hallways. It I recall the rest of the staff was suppose to be off, so it shouldn't have been Shannon.

I'm trying to remember what the attire was that Gohda saw this "woman" in.
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Old 2009-11-10, 18:59   Link #3038
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Someone has been going around before October 4th late at night. Gohda records it, and suggests that the attire is unlike what Natsuhi would wear or allow Jessica to wear walking around the hallways. It I recall the rest of the staff was suppose to be off, so it shouldn't have been Shannon.

I'm trying to remember what the attire was that Gohda saw this "woman" in.
She's been going around in "negligee". Nothing too raunchy, but presumably enough to offend the admittedly prudish Natsumi.
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Old 2009-11-10, 19:14   Link #3039
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
How does being eccentric and bullied lead to bad grades? Most kids that I see bullied are the smartest ones in the class.

But whenever she does that it's always about the occult, which I said she excels at.
There is actually an example provided by the novel itself about this.

Maria when asked to write the name of the objects shown in pictures, wrote "raifuru" (rifle) instead of buki (weapon). The picture clearly showed a rifle, Maria wasn't wrong, she actually demonstrated to be pretty smart and creative.
However the exercise was supposed to improve the knowledge of hiragana, so the teacher gave her a bad grade since she used katakana.

After that Maria got so frustrated and confused by that event that she was unable to concentrate on japanese anymore.

This is clearly Ryukishi's critique about the bureaucratic teaching system in Japan, and it is another example of his belief that people who are actually smart may end up having bad grades because of a wrong teaching system.
You can find something like that even in Higurashi in Keiichi's case. However in that case the problem was addressed successfully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Historically, members of minority groups that are ostracized tend to do incredibly poorly in school as a result of simply refusing to care about a school system that won't support them.
And this also is true.
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Old 2009-11-10, 19:25   Link #3040
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Not that you could construe anything from this, and I'm not sure if it's been noticed yet, but I saw something in the number of the "Unknown Kakera" at the EP4 ????.

Spoiler for EP4 Picture:


I was reading another person's article on a random blog which stated that the number of the world had every number except seven. I think this was intentional, even if it was just a joke, because the odds that at least one of the numbers would be a 7 is (9/10) ^ 31, or about 96.6%.

Lambdadelta, who was in this unknown world with Bern, means 3-4, which could be added as 3 + 4 = 7.

This is probably not notable or even just a joke on Ryukishi's part, but I still thought it was interesting.
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