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Old 2012-09-11, 22:23   Link #30521
erneiz_hyde
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It has been said for a while that Umineko would've been solved in ep.1 if Battler actually groped Shannon's breasts, so yeah...
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Old 2012-09-12, 04:28   Link #30522
Captain Bluebeard
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I don't see how finding out about her fake tits would solve anything.... Nobody (Battler-George or Jessica, Maria not even mentioned) would be nosy enough to ask, perhaps they'd embarrassedly let the subject slip. But maybe a Yasu that is convinced on letting herself to Fate would confess everything if that was found out.

As for Ougon, the jiggling is no problem at all if you take into account that her damn skirt flips so much all the time, anyone could find out her gender whether they like it or not.
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Old 2012-09-12, 05:06   Link #30523
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Unless Yasu really does have mutilated junk.
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Old 2012-09-12, 05:10   Link #30524
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Yep, I know. I was just making a point that anime will be anime. I'm sure they didn't even think the jiggling might be a plot hole in the first place.

(Or maybe they did, but as long as they get to put *bounce* *bounce*, who the hell cares???)
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Old 2012-09-12, 06:01   Link #30525
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Ougon doesn't count. It's all meta/fantasy, so Shannon can be a real woman there.
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Old 2012-09-12, 06:06   Link #30526
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Ok, so sad thought. At current publishing rate, and assuming they do the whole thing, Yen press won't be done producing Umineko in English until 2016.

Also, as to those theories about why Battler sucked at mysteries when he is meant to have read so many, I wonder if he always would have. I mean, Gameboard Battler might have (after all, who compares real life murders to books) but Ryu said he was surprised no-one called him on using old tricks. It is possible after Ep 2 if the fanbase had performed as requested and actually read old mystery novels, Battler would have started actually trying reasonable solutions to tricks.
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Old 2012-09-12, 06:55   Link #30527
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Quote:
Ok, so sad thought. At current publishing rate, and assuming they do the whole thing, Yen press won't be done producing Umineko in English until 2016.
I know right. . I hope it sells well so that they can speed it up a little. I am gonna buy all the volumes, Btw I think it will be faster than higu no ? or is it the same amount of waiting?
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Old 2012-09-12, 08:57   Link #30528
Thunder Book
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Ok, so sad thought. At current publishing rate, and assuming they do the whole thing, Yen press won't be done producing Umineko in English until 2016.

Also, as to those theories about why Battler sucked at mysteries when he is meant to have read so many, I wonder if he always would have. I mean, Gameboard Battler might have (after all, who compares real life murders to books) but Ryu said he was surprised no-one called him on using old tricks. It is possible after Ep 2 if the fanbase had performed as requested and actually read old mystery novels, Battler would have started actually trying reasonable solutions to tricks.
I know, right. It really makes you wonder how the series would have gone had Land been published.
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Old 2012-09-12, 09:23   Link #30529
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I know, right. It really makes you wonder how the series would have gone had Land been published.
On a different note, about Land, I wonder if it would be fun if someone tried writing a forgery based upon ideas of how that story might have gone? (I'm not suggesting that I do so myself right now; I'm already busy with another forgery.)

Let's see, we know there would have been a "Virgilius" who would have played more of an Erika role. But I forget what else Ryukishi gave away about it. It would be fun to try to plot out how Land might have progressed, filling in the gaps. After all, Beatrice did claim that it was her greatest work! It would have to be suitably epic. And it should differ from the way the way the rest of the series progressed, at least in some ways, since Ryukishi made serious revisions at that time.
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Old 2012-09-12, 09:29   Link #30530
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Wasn't Land going to be a thing where pretty much everyone but Battler was an accomplice? Sounded sort of like EP4 in that respect.
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Old 2012-09-12, 09:58   Link #30531
Captain Bluebeard
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Wasn't Land going to be a thing where pretty much everyone but Battler was an accomplice? Sounded sort of like EP4 in that respect.
From what we see in Hane, Battler is definitely a culprit/accomplice in Land.

And also, wow, GoldenLand, this is an awesome idea, it would make a kickass Forgery. I'd really wish to try something like that if my schedule wasn't so messed up.
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Old 2012-09-12, 10:09   Link #30532
Patchwork Chimera
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It actually would be cool try and figure Land. Lemme see what I can remember on the fly (Sing and try to remember~)

'Our Confessions' I think, was a written scketch of the gameboard in Land, right? From there, we can think that some of the clues presented in the EPs that replaced Land (3-4 and some loose hint in 5-6? I can't remember...) were going to be in the META layer. There wouldn't be that huge-ass hint about ignoring the unreliable narration (that TV thinghy that Virgilia said) And of course, Beato wasn't going to be as forgiving as she was in her previous/next gameboards so there had to be some strong reasoning made by Battler.

Last I can think is that Virgilius was going to be an ass. Not just any ass, more like intelectual-rapist-ass. So a masculine Erika? For some reason I got nauseas...

Hum. If really Battler made some plausible theorizing in Land, but was reduced to small bombs to make a suitable detective for the lest trying gameboards that replaced Beato's Master Piece, that thing was the basis for Ryuu to say that 'Battler liked to read mistery novels' revelation, that seems so out of the blue in the published eps. So Smart!Battler (and by proxy badassGM!Battler/GoldenSorcerer!Battler) became so weird because we didn't see him in action how it was supposed to be...

And if piece Battler was an accomplice as Cap Bluebeard suggests, Black Battler in Hane also wouldn't have poofed into existence so randomly XD
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Old 2012-09-12, 10:28   Link #30533
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Would we not get the Knox Rules in a Post-Land Chiru?

If Battler really had been a huge mystery fan from the beginning, it seems like they might only come up in passing conversation (Kind of like they already did in...Episode 2, I think), and not major plot points like in End.
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Old 2012-09-12, 10:34   Link #30534
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Last I can think is that Virgilius was going to be an ass. Not just any ass, more like intelectual-rapist-ass. So a masculine Erika? For some reason I got nauseas...
Excuse me, I'm not sure, I might have amnesia or something since it's been a long time. Are you talking about Ronove or someone else?
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Old 2012-09-12, 10:37   Link #30535
Thunder Book
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Land was supposed to have a character similar to Virgilia originally, but would have been male. And had a personality similar to Erika's.

I guess it was to match Virgil (Virgilius) from The Divine Comedy a little more closely to Battler's Dante.
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Old 2012-09-12, 10:37   Link #30536
Patchwork Chimera
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Would we not get the Knox Rules in a Post-Land Chiru?

If Battler really had been a huge mystery fan from the beginning, it seems like they might only come up in passing conversation (Kind of like they already did in...Episode 2, I think), and not major plot points like in End.
Hm... maybe we would. Knox was to be used against Game Master Battler, and it would help a lot to solve Land. I think that having Knox to help the reader is actually more plausible after an insanely difficult gameboard like Land, and suitable for the answer arcs, than having knox after some bizarre but not so brainmelting gameboards.

So the original idea was like this: Battler as the detective and Battler as the Game Master was a pair of concepts to give us readers the view of both sides of the gameboard. So Question Arcs we are seeing from the POV of the detective trying to discover the truth, and in Answer arcs we are seeing from the POV of the witch trying to hide the truth. It'd help nicely to keep that idea of Beatrice's Game being eternal and almost unsolvable. And, because Umineko is S with it's readers, no matter what side you played you were going to get some good bosses to fight (Beatrice for anti-mistery and Virgilius for Anti-fantasy at the begining; BATTLER for A-M and Knox for A-F in chiru, with its variations.)

EDIT: erneiz, two posts before I put mine XD I'm slow writting... It's like Thunder book said, Virgilius was going to be some ruthless male detective solving the ruthless game of the witch. Or something like that.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-12 at 11:03.
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Old 2012-09-12, 10:40   Link #30537
GabrieliosP
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Ryu said in an interview that Virgilia was originally supposed to be a character named Virgilus (yeah, male) that was supposed to have Erika's personality. But he changed it to Virgilia when he gave up on Land and wrote Banquet.

EDIT: Argh, spined. Damn that slow net today.
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Old 2012-09-12, 10:54   Link #30538
erneiz_hyde
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lol at the consecutive ninja-posts there

Thanks, I never knew that. Even after all these years I like how I can still learn something new from this thread!
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Old 2012-09-12, 10:59   Link #30539
GoldenLand
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Let's see, I think the following are the most useful bits of information from the relevant interviews.

Quote:
R: Actually, the difficulty level in EP3 has been set much lower than originally planned. The original plan was to use "Land of the Golden Witch" as the subtitle and create a super hard game. Readers have already gone through EP1 and EP2, so I wanted to increase the difficulty level. But as everyone now knows, the difficulty level in EP3 "Banquet of the Golden Witch" only goes as far as being on "equal level". It's already much easier than EP2's "highest level". I wanted to see how much of the story the readers have grasped. Although there were many readers like Keiya-san who came up with answers for EP2 on their own, I believed many people will find the EP3 prototype too difficult to understand. Therefore, we've greatly lowered the difficulty level, and then added many sub-characters into the game to accommodate the readers. It's common practice in the gaming world to lower the difficulty level for the sequel if the players found the first game too hard.
Quote:
That's why some of the content originally planned for the answer arc is now included in the revised version of EP3. Schrodinger's Cat is one of them. Initially we were planning on having the readers figure out on their own that in Rokkenjima, as-yet-confirmed things exist simultaneously (mystery and fantasy). But we thought it would be too difficult to fathom out, so we gave it away early. We ended up having to scrap "Land of the Golden Witch" altogether.
Quote:
R Because of that situation I cancelled the production of what was planned to be EP3, Land of the Golden Witch. Right after we released EP I thought "So, after the proper greeting by the witch, let’s create a real evil, orthodox mystery incident." but because so many people abandoned reasoning all together I hurriedly changed the whole script. Because it felt necessary to give the player a character who would lecture him about how to think, Vargilia was born. There were plans for a character similar to Vargilia to appear in the story before, but it was to be a more agressive character who later became the basis for Erika.

K At that time there were already plans for something like Erika?

R It was a character who would argue with the main characters about reasoning, and become an antagonist, approaching everything from a different point than Battler. It was actually planned to introduce that character at the stage of EP3. At that time it was a man called Vergilius.

K The name is taken from the character Vergilius in Dante’s Divina Commedia, right?!

R That is correct. But because a lecture like this became severely necessary, I changed the character Vergilius into the woman Vargilia. And because he changed into Vargilia, the connection to Kumasawa was created. At that point I stopped thinking about the character Vergilius at all, but now when I think about it, with a little struggling, you could call him the male version of Erika. Though a little bit more impertinent in her knowledge.

K At the time of EP2, Battler had a pretty hard time reasoning himself. If Vergilius had appeared then, the plot would have become an even fiercer battle?

R It became a fierce battle either way, didn’t it? In my head EP1 was supposed to be nothing more than an opening, during which you get to remember the structure of the characters and the mansion. EP2 was to be the beginning of the fight. And EP3 was to mark the beginning of the truly orthodox incidents. I really thought about putting many difficult riddles into Umineko from start to finish, but… I don’t think I would be able to make you enjoy Land, now that all of you have learned about the truth. If the answer is already out, it’s laughable to try and hide it with difficult riddles. At best it would be funny. Maybe you’d think "Hey, that makes up for some of it". Well that might happen, but almost all of the tricks planned for Land have been divided up and mixed into what became EP4~6. I really hear you asking for a release of Land, but I’m afraid I’m just not able to do that anymore.
...But I still think it would be fun! Would be good to have a forgery. A tough, orthodox mystery. (Okay, it's obvious that any fan of the series would be able to guess some of it, but still...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
'Our Confessions' I think, was a written scketch of the gameboard in Land, right? From there, we can think that some of the clues presented in the EPs that replaced Land (3-4 and some loose hint in 5-6? I can't remember...) were going to be in the META layer. There wouldn't be that huge-ass hint about ignoring the unreliable narration (that TV thinghy that Virgilia said) And of course, Beato wasn't going to be as forgiving as she was in her previous/next gameboards so there had to be some strong reasoning made by Battler.
Was Our Confession really meant to be a sketch of Land? That's the first I've heard of that. On the other hand, all I've seen of it is the summary by LyricalAura.
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Old 2012-09-12, 11:03   Link #30540
Renall
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As far as I know, no; it's an outline of a discarded gameboard, but that doesn't mean it's Land. We don't know how Land was supposed to play out, just that it was very difficult and had a particular character in it.

We also know the "tricks" of 4-6 were mixed up and put into those episodes, so one presumes there might have been something akin to the Logic Error in it, something about proving Kinzo's death, and perhaps a post-murders Battler discovery session akin to the Tea Party of Alliance.
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