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Old 2012-09-20, 03:46   Link #30701
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
I'm not satisfied with how Yasu's motives where put. But let's say, there's an episode about Kyrie, just as exhaustive with all her backstory and everything else as 7 was with Yasu's. And she's refered as 'culprit'. One. Entire. Episode.
The mystery Will was solving in EP7 was not "Who caused the Rokkenjima incident?" It was "Who killed Beatrice?" As in, the character Beatrice.

You can read the EP7 chapter "Here's the Culprit" if you want to better understand where I'm coming from.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
There was some kind of murder -if we don't think anything happened in that island, there's no point in trying to solve nothing about Umineko. All is fantasy.
--Alternatively, there was a misunderstanding/accidental murder that triggered the bomb. It's not like Maria was just playing with a clock and all went bang.

If a murder (fake, real, accidental or whatever) was commited, someone has to be the culprit. It didn't happen for the whims of magic, like Beatrice is so insistent we believe. Be indirectly, reluctantly or oportunistically someone made a huge mess before the island went boom. If that didn't happen, discussing about Umineko has no point. It's just an accidental explosion that erased half an island.
Well, I do believe there was some kind of incident. And not just out of a desire for an interesting narrative. After all, Eva had the head's ring and was in the Kuwadorian when the explosion happened. That doesn't just happen.

All I've said, or at least meant to say, is that Yasu has no narratively acceptable motive for murder. She certainly could be, and probably is, in some other way responsible for the tragedy.
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Old 2012-09-20, 09:05   Link #30702
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I'm not sure I'd refer to the gameboard character as "Piece-Yasu." In my mind, "Yasu" is an identity which can solely by applied to the author, who was apparently a real person in Rokkenjima-Prime. I do not believe the characters she wrote into the story were meant to be her. Notably, Our Confession suggests the primary agent is Beatrice and Shannon and Kanon are affected roles for Beatrice. I think it more productive (although also largely no different) to call the piece character "Beatrice."

I think this is important because the distinction between the person Yasu-as-author actually is and Beatrice-as-culprit is portrayed to be are far too divergent to merely represent "myself, but written into a story." As opposed to, say, her portrayal of Maria, which appears to have been more or less accurate to reality.

I consider this a significant factor in whether I believe in her guilt in Prime, and honestly it would not be indicative of guilt because she basically has to change her entire disposition and attitude in order to act as Beatrice. Beatrice may be able to do that, but her creator isn't (and can never wholly be) Beatrice. If Beatrice is "what I would need to become in order to be the culprit," then there's just no way I could buy Yasu as a culprit, because I don't believe she could bring herself to do that.

Did something happen? Probably. Did she maybe have a reason to feel responsible for it happening? Most likely. But it almost certainly wasn't intentional and it seems more probable that somebody was taking advantage of (or misunderstanding) her attempts to make the best of a volatile situation.

The story indirectly suggests several such instances. Murder Game gone wrong is touched on in End and Dawn. Chaos breaking out over the revelation of the gold (which I think she could easily have tried to do in order to save everyone from their financial woes) is shown in Requiem and Twilight. These are both plausible, although the way they are portrayed is highly exaggerated within the context of the stories themselves.

All it really would've taken on her part is a miscalculation about how things would have played out, or a misjudgment of somebody's nature. We might never know for sure, because her judgments end up parroted by Tohya and so we're just sort of left to view the characters the way those two authors view them.
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Old 2012-09-20, 11:31   Link #30703
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I don't quite agree with that Renall, Beatrice and Yasu are basically the same entity. It is wrong to say that Yasu was a personality in its own because she (or her) never liked that name, and therefore would have never created a personality specific for that.

Yasu simply became Beatrice, at that point there was no Yasu, only Beatrice and Shannon, in that person mind. If you want to keep calling her Yasu, that's okay, but you must be aware that is just the name for Beatrice, or Shannon if you think that's more like the true self (albeit I disagree on that).

In short, there is absolutely no Yasu personality. Yasu is just a name.

Also Beatrice is not "what I would need to become in order to be the culprit". She became Beatrice a long time before she even thought about that. And even when she underwent the second change, that was still before she planned the murders.


Naturally if your point is that Yasu/Beatrice described herself somewhat different in her own story well that's just something that anyone can do. Even Battler could have done that. In that case you can say that Character-Battler is different from Author-Battler. But the distinction you made with Yasu and Beatrice isn't quite right.
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Old 2012-09-20, 11:54   Link #30704
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Okay, on this specific point, I disagree. If we take EP5 into account (and I don't see why we shouldnt), even though they were arranged, Krauss was very sensitive to this fact, and did his best to treat her with affection. And eventually, they built a genuine, pleasant relationship out of it. While Krauss does seem to be somewhat of a chauvinist, I'm pretty sure he DOES care a lot about his wife.

And to be as fair as possible, they're under A LOT of stress in 1986, but, y'know ... at least they're hiding the corpse together. Y'know, as a team and stuff. And they both lose their shit when they think the other is in danger. Aaaaaaand with all due respect to Natsuhi's determination, she is both very emotional, and not too clever. In a tense discussion with his siblings, it was probably for his best to ask Natsuhi to leave. She kept having outbursts that were rather childish for a 50 year old woman.

Though I agree, Eva deserved a serious bitch-slap or SOMETHING when she said those things. I particularly enjoy the anime version of the scene, which shows Kyrie and Rosa sipping their tea CALMLY AS FUCK during the entire exchange. At least Rudolf looked like he felt bad.

edit : Oh, I was ninja'd by AuraTwilight
But no seriously go watch that scene in the anime as Kyrosa gives no shits at all, it's almost beautiful. As if to say "Man she pulls this shit every year when we come here, EVERY YEAR MAN."
The problem with EP5 and later ones is that they are portrayed through some really unreliable author -amnesiac Tohya or Ikuko, don't remember wich-. What happens behind scenes is, at best, speculation. I'm not saying they don't care for each other or they don't love each other, but they seem highly disfunctional for me.

Tension and a bad week can be other possibilities, if in the first games (written by Yasu, a maid that was in the island for more time, and that if she could get ANYONE right would be the people she lives with.) they don't seem so functional before or during the game. But if you want to see that scene with love, I can't dissagree with you for the catbox and premise of Umineko.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
That really is the problem with Umineko, from the point of view of seeking the culprit. Yasu gets loads of attention, but her motive is weak and doesn't fit with the themes of the story and Battler's reactions. However, if it's not her and there is a sole culprit, that culprit has not had the right attention to them paid by the story. (In fact, many of the characters have hardly been paid any attention at all...like Hideyoshi, Genji, Gohda, etc.) We don't know who they are. And they don't have a satisfying motive either. I think there's some consensus that based on what we know, none of the characters has a good motive to kill everyone on the island. They might have the motivation to kill some, but not all.

It's possible that from Ryukishi's point of view, the "whodunnit" is just the "whodunnit" of the gameboards, and that the "whydunnit" for the gameboards is just that Shkanon were the puppets of meta-Beato as she wrote her stories. As in, Shkanon had no real motive other than a meta-motive.

So...maybe in the end, Ryukishi didn't even mean to tell us the culprit, and the mystery was the mystery of "who is Beatrice", which episode 7 and the rest of the series did tell us. The mystery of the culprit of the gameboards and the mystery of Beatrice's heart and Yasu. It could even be what LyricalAura suggested, and that proving the innocence of Yasu is the true mystery to solve even if we'll never know the real culprit.

Yes, it's weak from the traditional mystery perspective. I wanted to know the culprit and why they did it...but it seems that's not the story Ryukishi wanted to tell. I think the only way that the story Ryukishi wrote could have told us the "real" culprit is if the theory of there being no deliberate mass murdering culprit but a tragedy of misunderstandings is correct. He's shown us that the Ushiromiyas are flawed people who could potentially shoot someone if the circumstances were right. Something like the ep 7 tea party only without an "I'm randomly and stupidly evil" motive from Rudolf and Kyrie could work.

Actually, with the fake murder game thing, as has been mentioned by others before, if that game was what happened, I'd feel rather uncomfortably as if Battler is the best choice of culprit; after all, he's the one the game would be aimed at. Nearly everyone else could potentially have been an accomplice to Beato, but not him, the target. The person in the best (...worst..) position to freak out with paranoia and start shooting people once he thought a mass murder was occurring.

Although...were the characters really as bad as the stories say? Ep 8 had everyone being fluffy and nice. Ange had to question what the truth was, and that was either a forgery (maybe Tohya's) or something in Ange's imagination. The thing about the games is that they were written by Beatrice, and as has been mentioned up the page, although Beatrice went on about love existing in everyone's hearts, "Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it". Yet at the same time it seems she's making herself the scapegoat for the very sake of those people. So many contradictions!

Even assuming Yasu didn't kill directly, there are certainly ways like the ones you mentioned where she could have had a hand in it. Those can even work if she has no intention whatsoever of killing anybody. With fake murder game theory + accidental murders theory, she provided a stage where things could go wrong. But that one doesn't automatically make her a culprit, just a cause.
Just being a cause is fine. Because there's even the extreme theory floating that she didn't do anything. That I cannot believe.

I agree with the things about characters. The problem is the excesive 'could or couldn't have happened' in all the story. There's basically nothing solid or that can't be argued. If, for example, Ryuukishi put real personalities in the characters (and then put them in the gameboard) guaranteed at least to the readers, we could make theories basing in whydunnit. That even would be benefitial for his posture of thinking in the character's feelings/reasons.

It's hard to "keep in mind the heart" if we can't even determine the basic aspects of some of the characters personalities because 'they could be embelished'.

But maybe proving that Beatrice didn't off them all and danced on their corpses is the objective of Umineko. So not a 'find the culprit' but a 'find the inocence'. So we are like freaking lawyers. I better go play phoenix wright, might get some hint of how to approach Umineko XD

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm not sure I'd refer to the gameboard character as "Piece-Yasu." In my mind, "Yasu" is an identity which can solely by applied to the author, who was apparently a real person in Rokkenjima-Prime. I do not believe the characters she wrote into the story were meant to be her. Notably, Our Confession suggests the primary agent is Beatrice and Shannon and Kanon are affected roles for Beatrice. I think it more productive (although also largely no different) to call the piece character "Beatrice."

I think this is important because the distinction between the person Yasu-as-author actually is and Beatrice-as-culprit is portrayed to be are far too divergent to merely represent "myself, but written into a story." As opposed to, say, her portrayal of Maria, which appears to have been more or less accurate to reality.

I consider this a significant factor in whether I believe in her guilt in Prime, and honestly it would not be indicative of guilt because she basically has to change her entire disposition and attitude in order to act as Beatrice. Beatrice may be able to do that, but her creator isn't (and can never wholly be) Beatrice. If Beatrice is "what I would need to become in order to be the culprit," then there's just no way I could buy Yasu as a culprit, because I don't believe she could bring herself to do that.

Did something happen? Probably. Did she maybe have a reason to feel responsible for it happening? Most likely. But it almost certainly wasn't intentional and it seems more probable that somebody was taking advantage of (or misunderstanding) her attempts to make the best of a volatile situation.

The story indirectly suggests several such instances. Murder Game gone wrong is touched on in End and Dawn. Chaos breaking out over the revelation of the gold (which I think she could easily have tried to do in order to save everyone from their financial woes) is shown in Requiem and Twilight. These are both plausible, although the way they are portrayed is highly exaggerated within the context of the stories themselves.

All it really would've taken on her part is a miscalculation about how things would have played out, or a misjudgment of somebody's nature. We might never know for sure, because her judgments end up parroted by Tohya and so we're just sort of left to view the characters the way those two authors view them.
Yasu, if I remember correctly, wasn't the type to murder everyone. But let's remember that annoying analogy about chick beatrice: all those '1000' years of pain (why am I thinking about a vicious kancho? :/ ) made an innocent starry eyed girl into the crazy badass witch that paraded around kicking Battler in the crotch. I find that laughable, but is the best explanation given in the games.
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Old 2012-09-20, 12:34   Link #30705
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Well, I feel a bit like a parrot to say it again, but I still see no reason to object to Ryukishi generally portrayed the humans in a way accurate to their reality, and the various elements of their backgrounds can be trusted.

It's not so much me viewing the scene with love, but finding no push to doubt it. And that isn't even a Chiru-specific problem. There are elements that wouldn't be in the expected knowledge pool of ANY possible author littered all over the place, right from EP1 ("dohoho Battler, Kyrie let's have ... A FAMILY TALK." /thunderwave/), but Ryukishi wanted us to know about them, so, hey.

I myself would say There are very few things that are impossible for a truly intrepid author to learn, if they were willing to research it. The baby switch, the construction of the chapel, Eva's preferred countries to vacation to, George's habits at school, Kratsuhi's feelings about their marriage, these are all among things that could be reasonably verified with research and interviews. The fact that Ryu never suggested that such research was done is just his fault as an author, being the same man, of course, who disregards culprits getting wet in the rain and wraps up plot threads with amnesia.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:01   Link #30706
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EP8 decided that nobody knew how the characters were in reality with that scene about Kinzo and the happy family scene. So 'different personalities IRL' is not totally unheard of in Umineko.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:19   Link #30707
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EP8 did not decide "nobody knew how the characters were in reality" ... even the characters themselves ARGUE "You can just ask X! They'll tell you how I was..!"

You're right, EP8 did decide to disregard reality to do whatever it wanted, though. But it's so obviously weird compared to the rest of the series, I AM pushed to doubt it (Really? Nobody is the least bit resentful that they got exploded in the face..?). The only person who gets a kinda sorta pass is Kinzo, who, being dead, crazy, and prone to wild mood swings, is treated more like a phantom than a human, anyway.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:28   Link #30708
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't quite agree with that Renall, Beatrice and Yasu are basically the same entity. It is wrong to say that Yasu was a personality in its own because she (or her) never liked that name, and therefore would have never created a personality specific for that.

Yasu simply became Beatrice, at that point there was no Yasu, only Beatrice and Shannon, in that person mind. If you want to keep calling her Yasu, that's okay, but you must be aware that is just the name for Beatrice, or Shannon if you think that's more like the true self (albeit I disagree on that).

In short, there is absolutely no Yasu personality. Yasu is just a name.

Also Beatrice is not "what I would need to become in order to be the culprit". She became Beatrice a long time before she even thought about that. And even when she underwent the second change, that was still before she planned the murders.
Beatrice is a creation. There's plenty of evidence behind that. Her titular nature, the description of her purpose for creation and repurposing later, her behavior behind the scenes in Our Confession and arguably even in Turn and Alliance when she physically appears before people, all of that suggests an independent entity to some extent from the author and a distinction being drawn.

Yasu has a personality. A poor self-opinion, strong imagination, and a desire to retreat into fantasies doesn't prevent that. There is a person there, a person who wants to reach out to someone she knew years before.

Unless you're going to suggest that Yasu wasn't Yasu when she first met Battler, at a time when Beatrice essentially didn't exist, Shannon was somewhat different, and Kanon hadn't even been thought up. Who was the person Battler knew, then? Clearly, it was the personality of Yasu-as-author.

Did she change in six years? Of course. Even if none of the stuff from Requiem is true, she'd still by necessity change over that length of time. She'd be something of a different person, but I don't think she'd be essentially a completely distinct and unrecognizable entity.

I mean look at it this way: Yes, the forgeries are stories. But at the same time, the portrayal of Beatrice to Battler in Alliance or the portrayals of Shannon and Kanon elsewhere do not make Battler remember. If Battler can't remember Yasu based on the behavior of her created characters, then either:
  • He is impossibly dense;
  • Each of the characters used in the story are significantly distinct from the person he remembers; or
  • Yasu doesn't even exist in the stories, meaning none of her characters can be her.
Now granted, it could just be that he's stupid. But he seemed to have an essential and unique relationship with another person and he should have been able to recognize that.

I find it almost impossible to believe Battler wouldn't have remembered in Prime. Whether he thought it was important is another thing, but I don't think Yasu could've fooled him. Beatrice does, and I think it's because Beatrice just isn't the same person. Beatrice has traits and convictions that Yasu lacks, but is capable of imagining having.

I wouldn't think of them as the same individual at all. The portrayal of human beings is one thing, but Beatrice/Kanon/Shannon are fictional characters. Witches and furniture. Yasu-as-author is under no obligation to portray herself accurately when the entire premise is that she's replaced herself with these characters to play out a particular fantasy. I don't think she could've gotten away with it in the real world in the same manner Beatrice does in the stories. She might have done something similar (such as a game), but I don't think she's a 1:1 correspondence with Beatrice no matter how much she wants to push that notion.

Particularly since the meta-narrative pushes the equal importance of Shannon and Kanon, not to Beatrice, but to something of a higher order than Beatrice. And of those three, Shannon and Kanon have a particularly difficult time in the meta-narrative with harming the family and each other. It's clear there are attachments the author has that her created culprit does not. I can't imagine it would be so easy to abandon those. But I don't think it was ever her intention to actually do so, as she takes too many steps designed to be nice to people and care for people than to believe she's the sort of person who could just callously orphan Ange to satisfy herself.

Put both of these conceptions of the author next to each other and the one who is innocent is deeper and more human in realization than the guilty one, who comes across as a whiny self-centered hypocrite. It also explains more things... except what actually happened. But it's not like eliminating guilty-Yasu eliminates all possible explanations. Just the one most heavily pushed, yet also the one hardest to believe.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:29   Link #30709
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EP8 did not decide "nobody knew how the characters were in reality" ... even the characters themselves ARGUE "You can just ask X! They'll tell you how I was..!"

You're right, EP8 did decide to disregard reality to do whatever it wanted, though. But it's so obviously weird compared to the rest of the series, I AM pushed to doubt it (Really? Nobody is the least bit resentful that they got exploded in the face..?). The only person who gets a kinda sorta pass is Kinzo, who, being dead, crazy, and prone to wild mood swings, is treated more like a phantom than a human, anyway.
You can ask a lot of people about a lot of things, but generally when you ask "Do you think X is capable of murder?" or other personal questions, you ask close people. Who, cassualy, exploded with X in the island.

I don't know why, but your comment about Kinzo made me laugh so hard I spilt my coffe. My boss is not amused...

Edit: Renall ninja'd me.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:46   Link #30710
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EP8 did not decide "nobody knew how the characters were in reality" ... even the characters themselves ARGUE "You can just ask X! They'll tell you how I was..!"
Who really knows you? I know a lot of people who would describe me in particular terms that do not in any way reflect who I really am, at least to myself. Even my parents, in my estimation, get me all wrong.

For example, Krauss could say "Soandso from Whatsit Co. knew me quite well, he could tell you all about me." And he could, probably. To the extent he knows Krauss, in the context he knows Krauss. Which is probably business.

What does Soandso from Whatsit Co. know about Krauss's investment troubles? His family problems and relationship with his wife? His father's health and death and a possible coverup?

What people believe is in your nature may be all that is necessary. For example, Ange apparently had to contend with some speculation about her parents, even though in her mind and her memory the idea that they could have harmed anyone seemed ridiculous. It would seem enough people considered that possibility plausible elsewhere in society that the matter didn't simply die out!

Personally, I prefer to imagine that characters cannot act outside their nature as the author/Game Master believes their nature to be. There's no way that Yasu or Tohya or any forgery writer or anybody really could get the whole picture of a person, even someone they knew intimately. I mean look at the Battler/Ange relationship in Twilight; there are aspects of Battler that Ange doesn't understand and isn't comfortable with, and vice-versa (although in the opposite case, it's probably because it's been at least 12 years and she's changed quite a lot by sheer time passage). You can never know somebody completely, so how far you're willing to believe that doubt can be pressed should inform just how much you would allow a piece to do.
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Old 2012-09-20, 14:26   Link #30711
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Unless you're going to suggest that Yasu wasn't Yasu when she first met Battler, at a time when Beatrice essentially didn't exist, Shannon was somewhat different, and Kanon hadn't even been thought up. Who was the person Battler knew, then? Clearly, it was the personality of Yasu-as-author.
Suggesting? It was outright stated that Battler never met Beatrice before 1986.

The person Battler met was Shannon, the one who fell in love with Battler was Shannon. The promise of returning on a white horse was made to Shannon.
This is what the story says. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with the story.

Absolutely nothing suggests that Battler ever met "Yasu" or that he even ever heard that name.

The only other personality that we can assume Battler "met" is Beatrice. This happens clearly in the metaworld, but it might be as well a metaphorical representation of something that actually happened.

If that happened in prime, then it is most certain that she revealed herself as "Beatrice", the heir of Kinzo and the original Beatrice, the new head of the family, not Yasu or Sayo Yasuda which is a fake identity that she was given by Genji.

It should have been made clear in EP8 that Beatrice is how Battler sees her, beyond the obvious lies about her background.
For example in EP8 Battler says that Beatrice is the granddaughter of the woman that gave Kinzo the gold. This isn't another personality with another background, it is still Beatrice revealed for who she actually is. and this is the background of a real person.

If Beatrice was a fictional creation as you think she is, then she couldn't possibly be separated by the fictional story of magic she was originally shown with. But that's not the case. Conversely Shannon and Kanon, those are clearly fakes, in that they are attached to a specific fictional background that is never "dispelled", because dispelling that would mean dispel their very beings.
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Old 2012-09-20, 14:26   Link #30712
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
You can ask a lot of people about a lot of things, but generally when you ask "Do you think X is capable of murder?" or other personal questions, you ask close people. Who, cassualy, exploded with X in the island.
Of course, I'm referring to people who are still alive. Besides, the Ushiromiya's aren't even that close to one another. At this point in their lives, they see each other just a few times a year, if that. The kids get along great but never see each other, and the adults, despite some lingering squabbles, have mostly shifted into adulthood pretty amicably. To be clear, I'm saying that Rudolf / Hideyoshi, or Natsuhi / Rosa seem to have entirely friendly relations.

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I don't know why, but your comment about Kinzo made me laugh so hard I spilt my coffe. My boss is not amused...
I'm ... very sorry?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I mean look at it this way: Yes, the forgeries are stories. But at the same time, the portrayal of Beatrice to Battler in Alliance or the portrayals of Shannon and Kanon elsewhere do not make Battler remember. If Battler can't remember Yasu based on the behavior of her created characters, then either:
  • He is impossibly dense;
  • Each of the characters used in the story are significantly distinct from the person he remembers; or
  • Yasu doesn't even exist in the stories, meaning none of her characters can be her.
Not quite ... based on what we're told on the Gameboards, Battler DOES remember her. He remembers that they played together, that he had a crush on her, and had a knack for cheesy Engrish. When he meets Shannon, it's a reunion where he commends her on having grown such fine breasts, not a first meeting.

A "Ohhhh, it's Shannon-chan! Um ... sorry, the horse wouldn't fit on the boat, see..?" when she first comes to grab the kids for dinner would've prevented everything.

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Spoiler for snip:
Heh, I'm pretty certain if I get too deep into a philosophical discussion I'll certainly lose my arguing point.

But of course, one admits that there's always a difference between your perception of yourself (which also has room for inaccuracy), and how others percieve you, and that the context of any given relationship gives form to how you view that person ... In a pretty extreme case, I could say I don't know my brother very well at all, despite me watching him closely and interacting with him frequently for his entire life so far, because who knows whats going on inside that head of his.

But really, the idea that you can build a reasonable expectation of a person's self and behavior is a pretty easy one to accept. Maybe Soandso at Whatsit.co was pretty friendly with Krauss, they played golf together, they've known each other casually since college. Krauss unloaded all the time about his hysterical, arranged wife, and "he used to complain about Kinzo-san all the time, but one day in 1984 he just didn't wanna talk about it any more. I didn't press further." I mean, if 1000 people tell you "Man, Krauss was cheap", then hey ... maybe he was cheap. If one person then tells you "Well actually, he made sure his wedding was quite opulent", then fine, Krauss was cheap ... but wanted a really opulent wedding.

...might just be rambling at this point. What I'm saying is that you can get a real view of a person that way, sort of like ... the way a Monet painting records what a certain place looks like. Does that make sense..? Also, I'm fairly sure Ryukishi has a very whole idea of what these people are like.

Last edited by Kealym; 2012-09-20 at 14:27. Reason: ugh I meant Monet. Freakin' hate Manet.
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Old 2012-09-20, 14:45   Link #30713
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Maybe it's this bit?
Well, it mentions a scar but that scar is supposed to be due to the wound one of the 7 sisters gave him. If Yasu's problem was a gruesome scar right in the center of his chest it's unlikely that wound damaged her reproductive organs. It's just a pretty horrible scar to look at but in this case her problem would be a problem of look with nothing to do about her sexuality.

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
It's all about Yasu. The last games are all about whydunnit. So, to remark the gargantuan importance of whydunnit in a novel that's all about the heart, obviously you'd have to write everything about the culprit's thoughts and feelings to drive home the importance of why. You know, justify a little the neverending made-me-want-to-tear-my-hair repetitions of "Without love, you cannot see it(it being the motive)"

Then you say 'The crime wasn't her fault/she didn't do it'. I got confused there. So EP7 was just the maid's sob story, and the real culprit is still in the shadows or lost in between lines about conspiracies and grudges? Were's the heart? Oi, really. Or I'm slow or something fishy happened there.
I think Umineko is a layered story. What we're supposed to figure out is:

- Yasu wrote some mystery tales placed on Rokkenjima with the Ushiromiya as main characters that she wanted to show to Battler (by re-acting them or reading them, I don't care do your pick) so that she would re-ignite their old bond and drive home a message (she was madly hurt by the fact he didn't keep his promise).

- On Rokkenjima however something tragic, that might be related to Yasu's tales but can also be unrelated to it, happens from which only few survive (Eva, Battler and maybe Yasu herself?)

- A couple of Yasu's tales is found and people begin to wonder if they can be a retelling of what happened, beginning to judge what was regarded as an incident as a murder case. The legend of Beato is born and people start writing their own versions of what had happened as well.

- An amnesiac Battler also start writing his own version of what happened in co-work with Ikuko (who might be or not Yasu)

- Now WE are presented with what I think is likely to be a retelling of the two tales that Yasu wrote and were found and the one Battler/Tohya wrote in form of gameboard. The tales are solvable but not necessarily depict what had happened on Prime, though they're likely containing setting and facts that might have happened on Prime.

- The meta level represent the reasoning over those tales and the reaching of the truth inside it, that in the tales the culprit is Yasu but that the tales doesn't represent the truth of Prime ergo in Prime Yasu didn't murder people.

- The motive is 'the motive for writing the tales in a way that depict Yasu as culprit'. In this sense she didn't wrote them for Battler to get revenge on him but to drive a message home. Said message likely contained a slightly scolding note so it came out harsh, though if the Rokkenjima incident hadn't happened and he hadn't believed the tales were a desecration of his family/the real thing, it's unlikely Battler would have take it that drammatically.

- As the tales contain certain truths they contain hints to figure out certain things about Prime. I'm not sure if they can go as far as to tell us who was the real culprit in the real world.

- Umineko's target is never Prime. Umineko is 'a tale into a tale'. We're supposed to focus on Yasu's tales, not on Prime. Ep 7 likely tells us why Yasu/MetaBeatrice murdered all the pieces in her tales and it's a motive that work really well and it's well detailed for 'writing a murder story'. The downside of it is it's not a satisfing motive for the murders that were surely committed by PieceYasu.

As a result of all this:
Yasu isn't Prime's culprit but she's the culprit in the gameboards/tales.
The motive presented in Ep 7 is surely for Yasu to write the stories.
If the motive presented in Ep 7 is also for PieceYasu to murder either it's unsatisfing or Yasu wasn't developed in a convincing manner.
Otherwise Piece Yasu's motive is either different or more elaborate than just 'Battler didn't keep his promise' and her caracterization was... let's say sugar coated? Didn't depict her like a potential murderer in a manner that was convincing enough?

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Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
So the man treats her wife like some doll, doesn't let her talk, doesn't defend her when his sister basically calls her a slut and doesn't acknowledge her efforts to be recognized as a good wife. If Natsuhi believed her position as wife was so strong and acknowledged by her husband, she'd not have delusions about Kinzo coming back to life praising her. She'd not cry alone in the hallways because his husband, again, dismissed her. The more I can see in that relationship is a guy forced to marry a woman and sort of getting used to her, and a woman so despaired for him to treat her as a wife and to belong to the family that she'd go into psycotic bursts when something else was piled to dismiss her as just a borrowed uterus that has no consequence in the family.
I think Krauss isn't the best of the husbands but this doesn't mean he's the worst. Jessica complains her parents aren't a happy couple like George's but she also says she has 0 respect for them and wants to leave Rokkenjima and therefore them and yet it's clear she loves them dearly.

I think the general idea isn't that there's no love between Krauss and Natsuhi but that they just aren't that armoniously paired up as Eva and Hideyoshi can be.
They're both too clumsy, prideful and yet shy in expressing their feelings. Krauss, chasing away Natsuhi, might have meant to keep her away from Eva's remarks in a moment in which he wasn't in the best position to defend her as he had to keep hidden the fact Kinzo was dead. However more than feeling protected/spared from dealing with an unpleasant situation, she felt rejected and looked down. Talk about driving the wrong message with possibly the best intentions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
That really is the problem with Umineko, from the point of view of seeking the culprit. Yasu gets loads of attention, but her motive is weak and doesn't fit with the themes of the story and Battler's reactions. However, if it's not her and there is a sole culprit, that culprit has not had the right attention to them paid by the story.
The problem with Umineko is that it doesn't pay real attention to the real crime. We're told little to nothing about what had happened on Prime and using the gameboards to speculate might not help. For example in the gameboards Kinzo is conveniently dead. They're stories so there's no problem about conserving his corpse without nobody finding it.

In real life when Kinzo was introduced to Yasu he might have had an ictus or a heart attack or something that didn't kill him but reduced him to an almost vegetal state. His personality is dead but his body is not.

Likely it would still be a problem for Krauss as Kinzo would surely be declared unable to handle business and, even if the ineritance wouldn't have to be split, the siblings can insist on Krauss not being the sole caretaker of their father's money, while Kinzo's name wouldn't work anymore as 'insurance' for Krauss' business.

It would make sense he would hid Kinzo's state, though it'll be a lot less serious and dangerous than hiding his death. At the same time it can also be viewed as a pity act not showing Kinzo while reduced in this pityful state.

Switching 'vegetal Kinzo' with 'dead Kinzo' in the tales isn't really that far from reality, it's simply more practical and, anyway, after the Rokkenjima tragedy, it would be impossible to prove if Kinzo was dead by two years or in a vegetative state by 2 years and died only due to the incident.

In a fashion it would also fit with Kinzo being alive in Ep 7&8. It would be just a 'different interpretation of Kinzo's status' in a situation in which Kinzo's status can be viewed both as dead and alive.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
It's possible that from Ryukishi's point of view, the "whodunnit" is just the "whodunnit" of the gameboards, and that the "whydunnit" for the gameboards is just that Shkanon were the puppets of meta-Beato as she wrote her stories. As in, Shkanon had no real motive other than a meta-motive.
If I'm not wrong in OC's summary it was said that Shannon acted the way she did in the game because she would do everything for her lady Beatrice, which sort of doesn't match with Shannon's characterization as she usually fight Beato... so I'm rather anxiously waiting/hoping for Wanderer to translate that part...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
It could even be what LyricalAura suggested, and that proving the innocence of Yasu is the true mystery to solve even if we'll never know the real culprit.
Personally I like this theory!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Actually, with the fake murder game thing, as has been mentioned by others before, if that game was what happened, I'd feel rather uncomfortably as if Battler is the best choice of culprit; after all, he's the one the game would be aimed at. Nearly everyone else could potentially have been an accomplice to Beato, but not him, the target. The person in the best (...worst..) position to freak out with paranoia and start shooting people once he thought a mass murder was occurring.
Well, we don't know if the game was setted to be realistic or it was said right from the beginning that the victims would fake being dead and people started freaking out only when one of them was found dead for real (maybe for an incident during the game as Tohya's tales implied a bullet might have been shot by mistake).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
Just being a cause is fine. Because there's even the extreme theory floating that she didn't do anything. That I cannot believe.

I agree with the things about characters. The problem is the excesive 'could or couldn't have happened' in all the story. There's basically nothing solid or that can't be argued. If, for example, Ryuukishi put real personalities in the characters (and then put them in the gameboard) guaranteed at least to the readers, we could make theories basing in whydunnit. That even would be benefitial for his posture of thinking in the character's feelings/reasons.

It's hard to "keep in mind the heart" if we can't even determine the basic aspects of some of the characters personalities because 'they could be embelished'.

But maybe proving that Beatrice didn't off them all and danced on their corpses is the objective of Umineko. So not a 'find the culprit' but a 'find the inocence'. So we are like freaking lawyers. I better go play phoenix wright, might get some hint of how to approach Umineko XD
Yes, the problem with Umineko is that Ryukishi seems to think we can solve it like some sort of equation but didn't realize he put in it too many variants.

One matter is saying 4-X=2 and another is saying X-Y=2 that in Umineko's case is more like X-Y+A/B*C=2.

A person get lost in figuring all the variants and can end up picking up the wrong values because they simply can produce the same result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
EP8 did not decide "nobody knew how the characters were in reality" ... even the characters themselves ARGUE "You can just ask X! They'll tell you how I was..!"

You're right, EP8 did decide to disregard reality to do whatever it wanted, though. But it's so obviously weird compared to the rest of the series, I AM pushed to doubt it (Really? Nobody is the least bit resentful that they got exploded in the face..?). The only person who gets a kinda sorta pass is Kinzo, who, being dead, crazy, and prone to wild mood swings, is treated more like a phantom than a human, anyway.
I think Ep 8 didn't disregard reality but merely offered another interpretation for it.

Ange said Kinzo was a mean, scary grandpa but in Ep 8 Battler says that Kinzo didn't mean to be a scary grandpa but a joking grandpa only his idea of fun ended up scarying his young grandchildren.

Same result (Ange got scared), different interpretation (Kinzo being mean vs Kinzo failing at jokes).

The same can be applied to... well nearly everything in Umineko only we're often presented with the same interpretation for a certain event. Ep 1 explains the not Ushiromiya had a certain position at the table because deemed inferior, Ep 8 says that it was because it was easier for everyone to have a conversation if they were placed in that way.

Same result, different interpretation.
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Old 2012-09-20, 15:04   Link #30714
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Suggesting? It was outright stated that Battler never met Beatrice before 1986.

The person Battler met was Shannon, the one who fell in love with Battler was Shannon. The promise of returning on a white horse was made to Shannon.
This is what the story says. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with the story.

Absolutely nothing suggests that Battler ever met "Yasu" or that he even ever heard that name.
The Shannon he knew is essentially her, yes. The "Shannon" of the stories is not the same person. It's not that hard to understand. Shannon's apparent mutual interests never come up once and Battler never seems to make any such connection in-story. It doesn't even seem particularly in-character for her. There's also the differences in behavior and the differences in ideals and goals. Of course they mirror reality; that doesn't mean "Battler met the Shannon of the stories" is a true statement and it doesn't mean "Yasu and Beatrice are the same" is true. Because it isn't. Because it can't be.

You're quibbling rather uselessly over minor details that in no way change the point that the author of the stories is in no way wholly one of those characters, and thus none of those characters can be said to truly be her. If that's so, then one must assume all of them are there in bits and pieces, which is exactly my point. And in aggregate, I cannot believe this person could be a culprit. You can only get there by ignoring Shannon and Kanon, something you clearly don't believe we should do.

Also, it's worth noting that the meeting between the characters of Piece-Battler and Piece-Shannon never actually happened. The people who met were Battler-Prime and Yasu/Shannon-Prime. They talk about meeting, which would have happened in the context of history, but Shannon is not the only character operating in her creator's story, and cannot be a 1:1 representation. It just isn't possible.
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Old 2012-09-20, 15:08   Link #30715
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Suggesting? It was outright stated that Battler never met Beatrice before 1986.

The person Battler met was Shannon, the one who fell in love with Battler was Shannon. The promise of returning on a white horse was made to Shannon.
This is what the story says. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with the story.

Absolutely nothing suggests that Battler ever met "Yasu" or that he even ever heard that name.

The only other personality that we can assume Battler "met" is Beatrice. This happens clearly in the metaworld, but it might be as well a metaphorical representation of something that actually happened.

If that happened in prime, then it is most certain that she revealed herself as "Beatrice", the heir of Kinzo and the original Beatrice, the new head of the family, not Yasu or Sayo Yasuda which is a fake identity that she was given by Genji.

It should have been made clear in EP8 that Beatrice is how Battler sees her, beyond the obvious lies about her background.
For example in EP8 Battler says that Beatrice is the granddaughter of the woman that gave Kinzo the gold. This isn't another personality with another background, it is still Beatrice revealed for who she actually is. and this is the background of a real person.

If Beatrice was a fictional creation as you think she is, then she couldn't possibly be separated by the fictional story of magic she was originally shown with. But that's not the case. Conversely Shannon and Kanon, those are clearly fakes, in that they are attached to a specific fictional background that is never "dispelled", because dispelling that would mean dispel their very beings.
Jan-Poo, do you realize the difference between "Yasu is a separate personality from Beatrice" and "Yasu is an author and Beatrice is a author avatar?"

Because your responses aren't really touching on Renall's points at all. You're talking right past him.

In any case, Yasu isn't a "separate personality" from Beatrice and Shannon in the way they are from each other. In the Prime sense, all three of them are Yasu since there's nothing under the masks but Yasu. But in the stories, there seems to be NO Yasu, and Renall is suggesting she deliberately writes out her existence to make her three identities separate, but fundamentally unreal beings.
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Old 2012-09-20, 15:47   Link #30716
Patchwork Chimera
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Of course, I'm referring to people who are still alive. Besides, the Ushiromiya's aren't even that close to one another. At this point in their lives, they see each other just a few times a year, if that. The kids get along great but never see each other, and the adults, despite some lingering squabbles, have mostly shifted into adulthood pretty amicably. To be clear, I'm saying that Rudolf / Hideyoshi, or Natsuhi / Rosa seem to have entirely friendly relations.
My point was that the people still alive are not as close to the possible culprit as the dead are. Not all, of course. But for example: you'd ask Eva and Hideyoshi about George, and George about his parents. You'd ask Kyrie about Rudolf. Natsuhi about Krauss and Jessica. Battler is possible to research trough his classmates, but his only close family for six years (and the ones more likely to know him well) were his -dead- grandparents. It makes a linked circle of 'who knows who'. The most trusted people of the possible murderer are dead along them.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I'm ... very sorry?
I got scolded, but that was so my fault. You should be discreet when procrastinating at work and all that jazz.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Spoiler for Long post:
I haven't forgotten about the layered part of Umineko. I think is one of the brilliant things in there, even if it's confusing as hell.

The goals of the game were screwed up since the begining, because, even if Ryuukishi insisted our challenge was to deny beatrice we ended up in a twisted romance novel. More twisted than Durarara, and less entertaining hands down.

Seeing Beatrice as Inocent is all good and dandy (for some), but still lefts the culprit in the shadows. And the mistery crew scratched their heads, gave a half assed answer, got ruthelessly eaten by goats and went to hell. That sucks.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think Krauss isn't the best of the husbands but this doesn't mean he's the worst. Jessica complains her parents aren't a happy couple like George's but she also says she has 0 respect for them and wants to leave Rokkenjima and therefore them and yet it's clear she loves them dearly.

I think the general idea isn't that there's no love between Krauss and Natsuhi but that they just aren't that armoniously paired up as Eva and Hideyoshi can be.
They're both too clumsy, prideful and yet shy in expressing their feelings. Krauss, chasing away Natsuhi, might have meant to keep her away from Eva's remarks in a moment in which he wasn't in the best position to defend her as he had to keep hidden the fact Kinzo was dead. However more than feeling protected/spared from dealing with an unpleasant situation, she felt rejected and looked down. Talk about driving the wrong message with possibly the best intentions.
My point is in them being dysfunctional as a pair, and you went in there too. I was talking about the irony of the only really harmonious couple being Eva/Hideyoshi, even if they were together for a business marriage.
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Old 2012-09-20, 19:13   Link #30717
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Not quite ... based on what we're told on the Gameboards, Battler DOES remember her. He remembers that they played together, that he had a crush on her, and had a knack for cheesy Engrish. When he meets Shannon, it's a reunion where he commends her on having grown such fine breasts, not a first meeting.

A "Ohhhh, it's Shannon-chan! Um ... sorry, the horse wouldn't fit on the boat, see..?" when she first comes to grab the kids for dinner would've prevented everything.
I think it's a pity Umineko never presented Battler's version of how things went because there were some interesting things I noticed in the Battler/Shannon relation.
Yes, Battler remembered her, as soon as he heard her name:

Quote:
"They're probably busy with cleaning or lunch arrangements. It's alright, we'll go and greet them properly afterwards. Shannon's reception will sure be better than Gohda's nosy one, right? Heehehe!"

"Shannon? ......Shannon. ......Aaaaaaaaahh... I remember, that girl! She's still a servant now? Such spirit!"
But my feeling is he remembers a different Shannon, not simply a Shannon that looked different...

Quote:
"...Ah...! Jessica had me surprised, but, Shannon-chan! You too, you've gotten to be a completely beautiful woman, haven't you!"
"Y-...your words are too good for me, I'm flattered..."
"Bu~ut, food on this island must be reeeally nutritional, hmmmm? What are you eating, where are you training, to get boobs that big?~!! Let me feel them a bit and see whether yours or Jessica's are bigger, oka~ay?!"
but a Shannon that also acted differently.

Also there's this

Quote:
"Yep. Those were the only times that Shannon-chan smiled like a girl her age."
"I might have......gotten a bit carried away. It's embarrassing..."
"Battler's insanely huge now, but back then, Shannon and I were both taller and stronger than him."
It might mean nothing but we know that Jessica and Battler were used to fight and Battler was used to lose as a kid. It's possible he was used to lose against Shannon as well, though maybe they didn't really fight but, for example, race.

All in all though the picture of Shannon that Battler seemed to remember is of a girl who, at least around the cousins, is more vivacious than the timid, shy, overly polite Shannon he met.

Also, since Battler admitted he liked Shannon back then it's possible that part of his 'ideal woman' description was supposed to match with the Shannon of back then or, at least, with how he saw Shannon back then.

Even if in Ep 3 he's... let's say slow in remembering his promise

Quote:
"That's right, this is a memory I want to disappear, the bittersweet kind of thing that everyone does in adolescence as they transition to becoming adults... Aaaaarrggh..."
Anyways, it was just something I'd let slip out without thinking, so I hadn't remembered exactly what I had said.
But when those words were recited to me, it was all so embarrassing.
and after

Quote:
Actually, six years ago, I remember taking notice of her just a little bit.
though he denied remembering or wanting to remember:

Quote:
"I don't remember anything about what I said off the top of my head. Please, don't make me remembe-r."
and says he doesn't understand the point of having an 'only one'.

Quote:
"......Six years ago... That's a long time. What did these six years mean to me? I've just gotten taller. It was just a waste of time, six years I spent obstinately fighting with my dad."
"What about you, Battler? Have you gotten a girlfrie-nd?"
"Hmm, I wonder. There's a lot of girls that I play with. But there is no 'only one'. ......I'm just like a kid. I think it's more fun to be noisy with a large group of people than being alone with one person."
and in Ep 7 he's even faster in remembering it and without Shannon prompting him

Quote:
.........Shannon-chan.
Six years ago, you were part of our group, and we played together a lot, didn't we...
Back then, I think I might've......liked Shannon-chan.
That was the age when we were all overly self-conscious, in love with love.
Bittersweet memories of jokes involving melodramatic, flippant words.
"......That takes me back. I think I remember saying all kinds of stuff that I'd be way too embarrassed to say now. Gyaaah, just remembering it is making my face go red!"
"Hihihi. Shannon might be a scatterbrain, but her memory's incredible. Guess I'll just have to ask her all about your dark, embarrassing history."
"Qu, quit it. That was six years ago, so give me a break...!"
......I see. So, Shannon-chan is going out with George-aniki.
..................
What am I thinking? Could this be...jealousy?
I didn't really think about it until now, ...but that thing Shannon-chan and I had back then...that was probably my first love.
Well, it's not like I have any right to be jealous, after forgetting the whole thing until we met again.
So not only he hadn't totally forgotten but he had feelings for her that somehow survived even if he put them aside because Shannon and George are dating.


There are also some other interesting things Battler said:

Quote:
"Even though you're the one who brought up this subject, why do you have to betray me like this? Women are creatures who always ask questions, and yet, they almost never answer them. What cruel creatures, seriously."
Though he said it in a joking manner if you turn it over Shannon actually never answered to his request to leave the island and move to his home. Sure, she was supposed to do it after one year but there's another thing interesting about the whole promise thing...

Quote:
"If only I could leave this place, ......I'd be able to read so much more..."
"............"
"How long do you plan to be a servant, Shannon-chan?"
"......I don't know."
"If, someday, you decide to quit..."
"If I do......?"
"Come over to my place. And then, ......we won't need to worry about time running out anymore."
"......That's right. ......We could be together......as long as we wanted..."
"I know that day'll come someday."
"......You think it will...?"
"Yeah. I'm certain of it. When that day comes, ......I'll come for you, riding a white horse."
"......Wha......?"
"I, ...... I wonder... when that day will come..."
"Very soon, once you've made up your mind."
"Huh.........?"
"Any time's good for me. This is your life we're talking about, Shannon-chan. You should think about it carefully before you decide. .......And once you've made up your mind, I'll respect your decision, no matter when you make it."
"O, ......okay......"
"I'll keep on waiting until that day comes."
"Nn, ......ah......"
"I, ......I'm glad... ......Thank you......"
"Heheh......"
"......Thanks for giving me time."
"You have all the time in the world."
"No. ......I'd feel bad if I kept you waiting too long."
"Hahaha."
"So, I've prepared myself. ......No, I should say that I will prepare myself. ......I'm not going to quit my job right now. ......Yes, ...one year. ......I'll do it in one year. One year from now, right here, ......I'd like to make my decision."
"......A whole year, huh? That sounds good. Spring, summer, autumn, winter. ......That's a good amount of time to look deep into your heart."
"S, ......so...next year......"
"Yep. I'll be waiting for that day to come."
"Yes. ......I'll be waiting too...... ...Make sure......you come, okay...?"
"Yeah."
"......Don't forget. Come here next year, okay?"
"Yeah. I'll definitely come. I'll meet you here."
Maybe it's just the translation but actually Battler promised to come for her on a white horse when she would decide to quit being a servant and come over at his place. However he couldn't know Shannon had already decided to do so, in fact he gave her time in which she could decide for a yes or a no.
So for Shannon the white horse was tied to Battler's return while for Battler it was tied to Shannon's decision, whom he'll never know (and it probably didn't help Shannon looks already engaged with George when he finally comes back and that he promised to respect her decision).

Sure, he didn't come back but:

Quote:
"That's right. We're already old enough. It's not like we couldn't meet each other when our parents aren't around. ...It might not be a bad idea to gather the cousins together and play every once in a while."
Sure, he's referring to the cousins but it might be a veiled reference to the fact that Shannon was old enough to come and search for him if she wanted to tell him her decision.

Which is sort of fun because Shannon will short later say:

Quote:
"But I think that is very important. It's very hard for people to always be together, to always be friendly unless they desire it."
Which might be a veiled complain to how Battler never showed up but if you apply it in the reverse way, she also never tried contacting him which might be interpreted by Battler as she didn't desire to keep contact with him.

Oh and Battler said something rather wise and that applies well to Shannon/Yasu

Quote:
"Well, who you love depends on the person. Isn't everything fine as long as it's someone who's fun to be with? Being with someone doesn't require any permission as long as the two people accept each other. If you worry about your parents or your family, then you lose. Don't forget that. You can't go out with someone with incomplete feelings."
It's also interesting that this is in Ep 3 which likely was written by Tohya/Battler.

Something else I found interesting is how in EP 6 (in which Tohya/Battler should have had his memory back/understood & remembered everything) Battler was cold toward ChickBeato because she wasn't the Beato he wanted to see so desperately and to whom he wanted to apologize. If you see it as a metaphor, the Shannon he found wasn't the Shannon he wanted to find (and possibly apologize for making her wait) so he kept her at distance acting in a way that... let's say wasn't the one Battler usually had around her (though in the games Battler doesn't seem cold with Shannon, quite the contrary, it's possible his behaviour wasn't exactly like that previously).

So I really wonder what would have happened if Shannon hadn't presented herself as dating George or has tried contacting Battler to tell him she wanted to leave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
The goals of the game were screwed up since the begining, because, even if Ryuukishi insisted our challenge was to deny beatrice we ended up in a twisted romance novel. More twisted than Durarara, and less entertaining hands down.

Seeing Beatrice as Inocent is all good and dandy (for some), but still lefts the culprit in the shadows. And the mistery crew scratched their heads, gave a half assed answer, got ruthelessly eaten by goats and went to hell. That sucks.
Yes, one of the downsides of Umineko is that the Prime culprit is left unknown. The mystery can't be solved and justice isn't/can't be done. Not a single character is presented that want true justice for Prime because even Ange searches for a truth that would please her, she's not really ready to accept a truth that won't be 'Eva is the culprit' regardless of what she says and, in the end, she'll reject whatever truth she learnt.

I guess Umineko wanted the 'real world' to reperesent the unfairiness of the real world where not always justice is done and people search the truth for noble ideals.

While I can apprecciate the attempt at realism, it's still annoying not to have a solution for the mystery. It looks like an unfinished story and, as far as I'm involved, that's displeasing.
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Old 2012-09-21, 11:16   Link #30718
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Jan-Poo, do you realize the difference between "Yasu is a separate personality from Beatrice" and "Yasu is an author and Beatrice is a author avatar?"
Yes I do, you would know if you had read this:

Quote:
Naturally if your point is that Yasu/Beatrice described herself somewhat different in her own story well that's just something that anyone can do. Even Battler could have done that. In that case you can say that Character-Battler is different from Author-Battler. But the distinction you made with Yasu and Beatrice isn't quite right.

To answer both you and Renall. If we strictly consider the stories and exclude prime then Yasu simply doesn't exist. The culprit is Beatrice, which of course doesn't mean that the culprit is a witch in a literal sense. that character makes her appearance in EP2 directly inside the gameboard albeit it was very much hinted to exist since EP1


Now if we consider prime alone, there are no more reasons to think that the author is Yasu rather than thinking it is Beatrice.
To reiterate what I said earlier Yasuda's identity is that of a random fukuin children, it is a fake name given to her by Genji, it doesn't reflect the truth of that person at all.
Beatrice however is the daughter of a woman that was also called Beatrice and Kinzo. She is the granddaughter of Beatrice castiglioni. She is in other words the chosen heir of Kinzo, the head of the Ushiromiya family.
This background is more true to the real person than that of Yasuda. And this is what the real person identifies with. Certainly not Yasuda, and even less with Yasu, which is a nickname and a role she always hated.
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Old 2012-09-21, 15:48   Link #30719
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Quote:
To answer both you and Renall. If we strictly consider the stories and exclude prime then Yasu simply doesn't exist. The culprit is Beatrice, which of course doesn't mean that the culprit is a witch in a literal sense. that character makes her appearance in EP2 directly inside the gameboard albeit it was very much hinted to exist since EP1
And no one contests that, but we're not excluding Prime in this discussion.

[QUOTE]Jan-Poo is a jewel in the roughJan-Poo is a jewel in the roughJan-Poo is a jewel in the rough

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Jan-Poo, do you realize the difference between "Yasu is a separate personality from Beatrice" and "Yasu is an author and Beatrice is a author avatar?"
Yes I do, you would know if you had read this:

Quote:
Naturally if your point is that Yasu/Beatrice described herself somewhat different in her own story well that's just something that anyone can do. Even Battler could have done that. In that case you can say that Character-Battler is different from Author-Battler. But the distinction you made with Yasu and Beatrice isn't quite right.

To answer both you and Renall. If we strictly consider the stories and exclude prime then Yasu simply doesn't exist. The culprit is Beatrice, which of course doesn't mean that the culprit is a witch in a literal sense. that character makes her appearance in EP2 directly inside the gameboard albeit it was very much hinted to exist since EP1


Quote:
Now if we consider prime alone, there are no more reasons to think that the author is Yasu rather than thinking it is Beatrice.
To reiterate what I said earlier Yasuda's identity is that of a random fukuin children, it is a fake name given to her by Genji, it doesn't reflect the truth of that person at all.
Well we can't call her Lion; we can't call her Shannon or Beatrice. As far as describing the part of her that is neither of those three, Yasu works. Don't tell me this is a semantics thing, because arguing with Renall and I because "Yasu isn't the truth of her name" is really dumb and completely irrelevant.

Quote:
Beatrice however is the daughter of a woman that was also called Beatrice and Kinzo. She is the granddaughter of Beatrice castiglioni. She is in other words the chosen heir of Kinzo, the head of the Ushiromiya family.
This background is more true to the real person than that of Yasuda. And this is what the real person identifies with. Certainly not Yasuda, and even less with Yasu, which is a nickname and a role she always hated.
But she's not Beatrice. She may claim that identity, and she may fit into it well, but it's not who she is. It's just an elaborate delusion. And since she can't seem to possess the qualities of ruthlessness, malice, force of personality, and the other personality details assigned to her, then she's not really identifying with Beatrice; she just wants to be her.

Beatrice is not her true self. At best she's an otherkin persona, at worst she's totally flipped her balls. She no better matches it than Robbie Wheelings is Pardieu in Mazes and Monsters.
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:38   Link #30720
Jan-Poo
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Well you are entitled to have your opinion and claim that Beatrice is a fake persona and Yasu is different, but that's not how I see it. While Shannon and Kanon are completely different, Yasu and Beatrice lie on the exact same continuum. They aren't different, their story and personality do not conflict with each others, it is just that Yasu at a certain point became Beatrice, but that is just an evolution a personal growth not the construction of a new personality.

The point remains that Beatrice still has all the memories of Yasu, which is something you cannot say about Shannon and Kanon. And in my opinion Yasu has always been as malicious as Beatrice is. After all if she pulled those pranks, you can't say "oh but it wasn't her, it was just her fake persona", balls, it was Yasu, and she totally enjoyed that.

Additionally, note that Yasu always saw Shannon as someone different from herself, even before Beatrice kicked in. But that never happened with Beatrice. Well... if you exclude Gaap. But the point is that once Clair-Beatrice was formed, unlike the other personalities there was a total identification. Yasu didn't create Beatrice, Yasu became Beatrice.
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