AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-09-21, 21:58   Link #30721
Patchwork Chimera
Human
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
So basically, Yasu is a character X that we don't know anything about. She's the unknown basis for the other personalities. Then Beatrice in prime is Yasu taking the role of 'heir'. Shanon is Yasu taking the role of 'ideal maid'. Then Kanon is Shanon taking the role of a snarky aloof guy that she acts as when helping Jessica to fool her classmates (and the protective little brother Yasu talks to any other time).

Then, by expanding the fact that Yasu thinks that acting as someone makes a new person, Beatrice is furniture to be heir, Shanon furniture to be maid, and Kanon furniture to be a suportive/agressive guy.

That's what AuraTwilight says? I can't find a fault in that.
__________________
~º~º~º~
Sin importar cuanto busques la respuesta, ésta te aludirá con certeza hasta que estés listo para escucharla.
Patchwork Chimera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-21, 22:46   Link #30722
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Quote:
EP8 decided that nobody knew how the characters were in reality
I always thought it depicted that since pieces can't do what their models couldn't, that these people were much more 3d than we gave them credit. Sure they could fight and be petty and kill in the right circumstances, but they could just as easily be nice and play games and have a good time.

Quote:
I think Umineko is a layered story. What we're supposed to figure out is:
This summary sort of reflects how I feel, but also ties into something I've been noticing. The parallels between the who Yasu and Battler's promise and Ikuko and Battler's amnesia. Battler's sin was not reneging on his promise, but forgetting it. Here's a thought I've only half formed:

- Battler has amnesia, and forgets whatever new life he had begun with Yasu/Shannon (so maybe did come back for her or whatever)
- When being reminded of Battler, he goes into painful attacks of something
- He somehow seems ok with reading the forgery about the incident (prepared according to Beatrice "on a whim" (so maybe written beforehand or for some other reason))
- Meta-Beatrice is playing a game to get Battler to remember he made a promise, and for it she must constantly put him through the paces or seeing his family murdered in different ways (writing forgeries with him, enjoying the game but not realising until later that he actually feels real pain about it)

I am phrasing this badly, but basically, what if the white horse promise is just a representation of what Battler actually forgot, the fact they were going to start anew together. It is a little bit 'the vow' or whatever that movie is. Battler never sinned against Beatrice (Ikuko) but forget the relationship they had that began it all.

It makes Ikuko the culprit, because she is killing them over and over again just for her "ceremony". It doesn't go any way to explaining prime though (in which something clearly happened) and still has Yasu as a selfish enough person, but it fits with the story nicely.

As for what did happen on Prime, there was clearly an explosion incident, and Yasu probably had some part in it. But when you are playing with explosives, you don't need to actively kill every person individually, it just needs to happen.

I only really can't decide why Yasu wouldn't just be upfront about it, though Battler did ask that himself.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-22, 00:25   Link #30723
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
The point remains that Beatrice still has all the memories of Yasu, which is something you cannot say about Shannon and Kanon.
Yes, I can, considering that Piece-Shannon and Kanon seem to know everything Piece-Beatrice seems to by fantasy fiat.

Quote:
And in my opinion Yasu has always been as malicious as Beatrice is.
Yea, when those other girls bullied Yasu she totally blew off half their faces with a shotgun and made a party spread in the church out of their entrails.

Quote:
After all if she pulled those pranks, you can't say "oh but it wasn't her, it was just her fake persona", balls, it was Yasu, and she totally enjoyed that.
Just because she enjoyed it doesn't mean anything. She enjoys what Kanon and Shannon enjoy, too. There's either no dividing line between the four, or they are all distinct from each other. You can't have it both ways. Beatrice and Yasu have clear and demonstratable differences in characterization and personality. You can't even claim that Beatrice is more real than Shannon, since Beatrice's persona can be edited on the fly too.

"Beatrice you love Battler now instead of Shannon kthx."

Quote:
Additionally, note that Yasu always saw Shannon as someone different from herself, even before Beatrice kicked in. But that never happened with Beatrice. Well... if you exclude Gaap.
Thanks for totally undermining your own point.

Quote:
But the point is that once Clair-Beatrice was formed, unlike the other personalities there was a total identification. Yasu didn't create Beatrice, Yasu became Beatrice.
She also became Shannon, identifying equally as her in the day time.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-22, 01:05   Link #30724
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yes, I can, considering that Piece-Shannon and Kanon seem to know everything Piece-Beatrice seems to by fantasy fiat.
They cannot possibly consider Yasu's memories as their own, especially not Shannon. Shannon and Yasu existed at the same time, that would be quite a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, when those other girls bullied Yasu she totally blew off half their faces with a shotgun and made a party spread in the church out of their entrails.
Absolutely pointless.
We both agree that "this person" didn't kill anyone in prime.
By implying that Beatrice is the "psycho killer" mask of Yasu you are conveniently forgetting all those scenes where Beatrice is substantially presented as a good person.
In other words the "psycho killer" is as much a mask for Beatrice than it is for Yasu. It cannot be attributed to either's nature.

This is actually a good point. It is evident that Beatrice can wear masks, that she can pretend to be what she isn't, as she is clearly shown to be now a cruel monster and then a good person. If she was a mask herself she couldn't do that. She can wear masks because she is a real person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Just because she enjoyed it doesn't mean anything. She enjoys what Kanon and Shannon enjoy, too.
Not the point. If she enjoys bad taste pranks then that means the person is malicious, not just the made up persona. Else she wouldn't do it. Your claim that Yasu isn't malicious doesn't work. She is. She feels everything that Beatrice feels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's either no dividing line between the four, or they are all distinct from each other. You can't have it both ways. Beatrice and Yasu have clear and demonstratable differences in characterization and personality. You can't even claim that Beatrice is more real than Shannon, since Beatrice's persona can be edited on the fly too.
The differences you see in Yasu and Beatrice are just the normal differences you can see between a person and his younger self. I am clearly different from how I was when I was a kid, but that doesn't mean I ever had two different personalities.

You want to convince me that Yasu and Beatrice are distinct? Then show me conclusive evidence that they existed at the same time.
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-09-22 at 01:27.
Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-22, 01:44   Link #30725
Patchwork Chimera
Human
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
Quote:
Yea, when those other girls bullied Yasu she totally blew off half their faces with a shotgun and made a party spread in the church out of their entrails.
Naw, there was just a misterious accident in wich a maid broke something important and made her quit her job in fear. But that was the witch Beatrice, who felt insulted by that non-believer, right?


Quote:
Just because she enjoyed it doesn't mean anything. She enjoys what Kanon and Shannon enjoy, too. There's either no dividing line between the four, or they are all distinct from each other. You can't have it both ways. Beatrice and Yasu have clear and demonstratable differences in characterization and personality. You can't even claim that Beatrice is more real than Shannon, since Beatrice's persona can be edited on the fly too.

"Beatrice you love Battler now instead of Shannon kthx."
I always tought about that this way: everything Yasu did was blamed on one of the personality-characters-MPDresults. Like, if she was feeling antsy or resenful towards someone, she was Kanon. If she felt serene and happy she was Shanon. If she felt angry or half murderous, she was Beatrice.

She linked the personalities to the actions she did. Like 'I pushed that maid downstairs. But that wasn't because I (as Shanon) didn't like her, it's cuz Beatrice totally possesed me.' or 'I stole the keys, but Gaap posessed me so it really wasn't me, it was Gaap.' She could condition herself to show certain emotions in the daily basis -"summoning furniture", like the "counting to ten and breathing steadly" done by normal people-, but when pushed she went sour or disrespectful and some of the furniture came to take the blame.

Basically, I can say that I have a furniture that's really troll and bitchy named Mera. So everytime I'm feeling bitchy it's because I'm being possesed--Mera came to play. When I'm calm you can call me Patchy, who is a cool big sister that does everything right (because she's always here when I'm calm and less prone to spill the tea on the lady's face).

So she decided that everytime she thought of Battler, it was because Beatrice was possesing her. Before, that heartache was all Shanon's, but then she blamed Beatrice's random apparitions for it.
__________________
~º~º~º~
Sin importar cuanto busques la respuesta, ésta te aludirá con certeza hasta que estés listo para escucharla.
Patchwork Chimera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-22, 05:25   Link #30726
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is actually a good point. It is evident that Beatrice can wear masks, that she can pretend to be what she isn't, as she is clearly shown to be now a cruel monster and then a good person. If she was a mask herself she couldn't do that. She can wear masks because she is a real person.
Does that make Virgilia a real person? Does it make Bern and Lambda real people? Erika? Lion? What about Kanon's repressed feelings towards Jessica?

What you are basically saying, I think, is that the only "true" mask of Yasu is Beatrice.

But then why should we give a shit how Shannon and Kanon feel? How are they even relevant to anything? Why does Kanon even exist at all?
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-22, 17:36   Link #30727
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
They cannot possibly consider Yasu's memories as their own, especially not Shannon. Shannon and Yasu existed at the same time, that would be quite a problem.
...And? They're not separate minds, bro. Yasu is LARPing, and controls their every 'thought' and action. Meaning they possess Yasu's memories and simply have to ignore what isn't supposed to be 'theirs'.

...Which also goes for Beatrice, because she has to ignore certain memories of Yasu in order to be a thousand year witch. She also had to adopt some of Shannon's memories as her own due to taking her love for Battler, so she's not even a perfect 1:1 Yasu correlation.

Quote:
Absolutely pointless.
We both agree that "this person" didn't kill anyone in prime.
By implying that Beatrice is the "psycho killer" mask of Yasu you are conveniently forgetting all those scenes where Beatrice is substantially presented as a good person.
In other words the "psycho killer" is as much a mask for Beatrice than it is for Yasu. It cannot be attributed to either's nature.
You're the one who claimed that Yasu and Beatrice were equally malicious and cruel. Beatrice enjoys mass murder. Beatrice, being a fictional being, performs fictional murders and derives fictional enjoyment from them. Stop flip-flopping on this issue as it's convenient for you.

Quote:
This is actually a good point. It is evident that Beatrice can wear masks, that she can pretend to be what she isn't, as she is clearly shown to be now a cruel monster and then a good person. If she was a mask herself she couldn't do that. She can wear masks because she is a real person.
This is an unsupported assumption. Why can't maskception occur? :P

Shannon and Kanon also wear masks, by the way. So why are you insisting Beatrice is more real or a 1:1 correlation to Yasu when Shannon and Kanon share most of Beatrice's qualifications of being Yasu that you seem to be using?

Quote:
Not the point. If she enjoys bad taste pranks then that means the person is malicious, not just the made up persona. Else she wouldn't do it. Your claim that Yasu isn't malicious doesn't work. She is. She feels everything that Beatrice feels.
She also feels everything Shannon and Kanon feels, which is why she had to shuffle around the emotions of her characters in the first place. If Shannon's love was inconvenient for her and she didn't feel Shannon's emotions, why didn't she just delete that shit? And why could she just accept an imaginary love at the drop of a hat.

The only answer is that Shannon's thoughts and emotions are just as real as Beatrice's, which you are insisting are just as real, infact synonymous with, Yasu's. You can't have it both ways. If Beatrice is Yasu instead of being a role she plays, they ALL are.

Quote:
The differences you see in Yasu and Beatrice are just the normal differences you can see between a person and his younger self. I am clearly different from how I was when I was a kid, but that doesn't mean I ever had two different personalities.
Beatrice liked stealing people's brooms while Yasu didn't.

Quote:
You want to convince me that Yasu and Beatrice are distinct? Then show me conclusive evidence that they existed at the same time.
I don't need to, it was a major scene in the novel. You can't just choose to ignore it just because it's inconvenient for you. Show me that Yasu's adopting of Beatrice's identity is substantially different from Beatrice adopting Shannon's love, because Beatrice identifies with it so absolutely and completely that you'd SWEAR that she personally experienced it....as Shannon!

Quote:
I always tought about that this way: everything Yasu did was blamed on one of the personality-characters-MPDresults. Like, if she was feeling antsy or resenful towards someone, she was Kanon. If she felt serene and happy she was Shanon. If she felt angry or half murderous, she was Beatrice.

She linked the personalities to the actions she did. Like 'I pushed that maid downstairs. But that wasn't because I (as Shanon) didn't like her, it's cuz Beatrice totally possesed me.' or 'I stole the keys, but Gaap posessed me so it really wasn't me, it was Gaap.' She could condition herself to show certain emotions in the daily basis -"summoning furniture", like the "counting to ten and breathing steadly" done by normal people-, but when pushed she went sour or disrespectful and some of the furniture came to take the blame.
This is how I always felt about it. Yasu is basically a teenage Maria. ^_^
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 05:06   Link #30728
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Next installment. This should be the second to last one. I'm getting close to the end.

Spoiler for The 2nd Twilight and the first of Twilights 4-8:


I'll post thoughts later.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 06:21   Link #30729
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
I'll use the readers' expectations, that the reasoning coming from the other characters is usually wrong, against them.
By having Natsuhi say something is "right", it will cause them to think it must not be so; it's a confusion technique.
Hahaha, I think Ryukishi used this 'confusion technique' a LOT. And I think that it worked pretty well, actually. Most of EP2 wasn't even difficult if you suspect the servants, but people refused to do that and made it much harder than it needed to be.

Quote:
They don't know.
They don't even know that Eva and the others are really dead.

This is Beato's deception, made possible by her discovery of the gold.
They believe the five victims were also paid off, and that they're just playing dead.
This is something that really annoys me in most of the episodes. The corpses are generally horribly mutilated during the first twilight. If you want people to believe that they are fake, why on earth would you do that? And why on earth would the accomplices be fooled by it?

Also, Kumasawa's death scene is...really, really horrible to read. It is pretty hard to sympathise with Piece-Yasu in cases like this...
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 07:40   Link #30730
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
This is something that really annoys me in most of the episodes. The corpses are generally horribly mutilated during the first twilight. If you want people to believe that they are fake, why on earth would you do that? And why on earth would the accomplices be fooled by it?
Genji seems to fully know what he's involved in, and so do Krauss and Natsuhi. Nanjo pretty much has to know too.

The only people who she seems to be referring to in this case are Gohda and Kumasawa, who probably never saw the corpses in Kinzo's room with their own eyes.

She does it "case by case". It's easier if they don't know there's actual murder, but that doesn't mean it's impossible if they do know...
...well personally I think it's too much to expect full, knowing cooperation in murder just by the bomb threat... especially from several different people. But, in this world written by Beatrice it seems to work every time just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Also, Kumasawa's death scene is...really, really horrible to read. It is pretty hard to sympathise with Piece-Yasu in cases like this...
Agreed. Try to imagine translating it.

One thing I found really strange was Beatrice saying that Kumasawa's face-up pose was good, originally, and then asking her to go face-down later. It'd make more sense to me if she just said the face-up pose was no good the whole time, instead of appearing to randomly completely change her mind.

It almost feels like there are two different Piece-Beatrices, or like the part with her killing Kumasawa was added into the scene later. Could just be me not wanting to believe she really did it, though.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 11:14   Link #30731
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Yes, remember that Kratsuhi was only threatened with the bomb because they were especially prideful. The implication was that the other adults would probably participate for just the money, if they were lead to believe the whole thing was fake, anyway.

Also, this bit :
What a simple and cheap mystery.
Probably, for those people who love to read the mystery novels that I have boundless respect for, they'll see right through it with a big laugh.
To witness demons, even with a brazen display of fantasy as "proof", is to mystery the height of satire; it will no doubt get laughs.


I dunno why, but it feels like my respect for the whole series just got a boost.

Anyway, what I find most interesting about the gameboard presented so far is
1. It only involves 10 people dying, since the 2nd Twilight is being interpreted differently
2. It's probably the most involvement Krauss has ever had
3. No seriously, did she say that there was going to be a giant exploded hole in Kinzo's study??
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 11:38   Link #30732
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Haha, it sure wouldn't be much of a closed room if there was a huge hole, would it?
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 14:34   Link #30733
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yes, remember that Kratsuhi was only threatened with the bomb because they were especially prideful. The implication was that the other adults would probably participate for just the money, if they were lead to believe the whole thing was fake, anyway.

Also, this bit :
What a simple and cheap mystery.
Probably, for those people who love to read the mystery novels that I have boundless respect for, they'll see right through it with a big laugh.
To witness demons, even with a brazen display of fantasy as "proof", is to mystery the height of satire; it will no doubt get laughs.


I dunno why, but it feels like my respect for the whole series just got a boost.

Anyway, what I find most interesting about the gameboard presented so far is
1. It only involves 10 people dying, since the 2nd Twilight is being interpreted differently
2. It's probably the most involvement Krauss has ever had
3. No seriously, did she say that there was going to be a giant exploded hole in Kinzo's study??
I'm a bit sorry I saw Higurashi before watching Umineko.
Due to Higurashi's paranoia syndrome connected to aliens through all the anime I was expecting Umineko's solution to be something weird as well and not mystery like as well.
LOL, I wasn't enoying it much though. If I've to be honest I began enjoying it only when a friend introduced me to the visual novel and told me that Umineko could be handled like a mystery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
This is something that really annoys me in most of the episodes. The corpses are generally horribly mutilated during the first twilight. If you want people to believe that they are fake, why on earth would you do that? And why on earth would the accomplices be fooled by it?
Well, of course there's denial.

Come on, Yasu's a kind girl that wouldn't be capable of gruesome murder and that is supposed to feel affection for those people and she just told you they're playing dead, it's just make up and hey, she's rich enough to pay the staff of a holliwood movie to come here and cover you in make up, why should you doubt her? Sure, that make up seems a bit too realistic and they're really cool at being perfectly still without even breathing but hey, they're gonna be paid, aren't they?

Personally I find easier for someone who believes it's all a game to play along that for someone who thinks it's a real murder and yet does nothing to stop it even if yes, the whole 'I didn't notice they were really dead' seems a bit forced and a trick that wouldn't work so well in real life with such murderour deaths.

What annoys me is that in a previous part Kumasawa defined herself as someone who was also blackmailed and cared for her life in front of Krauss and Natsuhi so she should know they were threatened to take part to that prank and yet, she's not worried at all?
I mean, I'm not sure about Japanese laws but I guess over there blackmail should be a crime as well and if they needed to be blackmailed and threatened to take part to a prank they probably won't just laugh the thing off once the joke is finished.
They could sue Yasu to the police who can make investigations and find out that Kumasawa had been paid to be an accomplice with money Yasu was illegally owning.
Really, I would think twice before taking part to such a thing.

In a fashion motives are truly Umineko's weak point.
Not only Yasu's motive for doing all this but also the others' motives for playing along in something like this.

It'll be different if Kumasawa were to think Krauss and Natsuhi were also playing a prank and having fun at it but if she know they're blackmailed/threatened into it... well, matters change.

The same for Krauss and Natsuhi that accomplish with Yasu's demands in an apparent rather passive and calm way.

I won't go into Genji who's really too robot-like.

A guy that hid Yasu from his master when he believed this could not be the best for her is now passively letting her murder lot of people when he should hold some affection for some of them. After all he saw Kinzo's children grow and the same can be said for the innocent grandchildren. Doesn't he feel some pity for them? Not mentioning the whole plan includes Yasu's death as well. All he has to do to stop it is turn off the bomb and restrain Yasu. Why isn't he doing it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Next installment. This should be the second to last one. I'm getting close to the end.
Again thank you very much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
This summary sort of reflects how I feel, but also ties into something I've been noticing. The parallels between the who Yasu and Battler's promise and Ikuko and Battler's amnesia. Battler's sin was not reneging on his promise, but forgetting it. Here's a thought I've only half formed:

- Battler has amnesia, and forgets whatever new life he had begun with Yasu/Shannon (so maybe did come back for her or whatever)
- When being reminded of Battler, he goes into painful attacks of something
- He somehow seems ok with reading the forgery about the incident (prepared according to Beatrice "on a whim" (so maybe written beforehand or for some other reason))
- Meta-Beatrice is playing a game to get Battler to remember he made a promise, and for it she must constantly put him through the paces or seeing his family murdered in different ways (writing forgeries with him, enjoying the game but not realising until later that he actually feels real pain about it)

I am phrasing this badly, but basically, what if the white horse promise is just a representation of what Battler actually forgot, the fact they were going to start anew together. It is a little bit 'the vow' or whatever that movie is. Battler never sinned against Beatrice (Ikuko) but forget the relationship they had that began it all.

It makes Ikuko the culprit, because she is killing them over and over again just for her "ceremony". It doesn't go any way to explaining prime though (in which something clearly happened) and still has Yasu as a selfish enough person, but it fits with the story nicely.

As for what did happen on Prime, there was clearly an explosion incident, and Yasu probably had some part in it. But when you are playing with explosives, you don't need to actively kill every person individually, it just needs to happen.

I only really can't decide why Yasu wouldn't just be upfront about it, though Battler did ask that himself.
It'll be interesting if actually Battler remembered the promise and he and Shannon escaped before the storm started, going to live together in hiding in some place using Yasu's bank account. Maybe they even left a letter explaining things to the parents who in the meanwhile made a mess and managed to turn on the bomb.

Then, while Yasu's out let's say for groceries and while wearing a disguise, Battler turns on the tv and hear what had happened in Rokkenjima. In shock he wanders out of the house until he finds himself involved in a car incident. Meanwhile Yasu finds out as well and come home just in time to find Battler injured and in a confusional state.

She figures the island was blew up by the bomb and that if they were to admit who they are they would look suspicious as they have illegal money and they just left the island before it exploded and so she decides to hide Battler who meanwhile had lost his memory and herself, keeping up her fake persona identity.

Yet she can't deal with Battler having forgot about her again ence the pushing on him to remember with her novel in which she involves him as well and her sense of guilt toward Ange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchwork Chimera View Post
I always tought about that this way: everything Yasu did was blamed on one of the personality-characters-MPDresults. Like, if she was feeling antsy or resenful towards someone, she was Kanon. If she felt serene and happy she was Shanon. If she felt angry or half murderous, she was Beatrice.

She linked the personalities to the actions she did. Like 'I pushed that maid downstairs. But that wasn't because I (as Shanon) didn't like her, it's cuz Beatrice totally possesed me.' or 'I stole the keys, but Gaap posessed me so it really wasn't me, it was Gaap.' She could condition herself to show certain emotions in the daily basis -"summoning furniture", like the "counting to ten and breathing steadly" done by normal people-, but when pushed she went sour or disrespectful and some of the furniture came to take the blame.

Basically, I can say that I have a furniture that's really troll and bitchy named Mera. So everytime I'm feeling bitchy it's because I'm being possesed--Mera came to play. When I'm calm you can call me Patchy, who is a cool big sister that does everything right (because she's always here when I'm calm and less prone to spill the tea on the lady's face).

So she decided that everytime she thought of Battler, it was because Beatrice was possesing her. Before, that heartache was all Shanon's, but then she blamed Beatrice's random apparitions for it.
Well, actually it's more complicate than that.

Firt Yasu's immaginary friends were a way to deal with her loneliness.
Shannon was there to place the role of the friend and older sister (family) she didn't have, supporting her. Sure, Shannon was a bit too biased toward Yasu but considering at first Yasu didn't seem to realize Kumasawa looked at her like she would with a grandaughter, probably she needed someone fully on her side who would believe she was special and would become better than anyone else.

That's true Gap got blamed for the things Yasu were to lose but I think Yasu also got pranked by the other girls so probably it wasn't always Yasu's fault. However it was likely too sad to think the other girls would prank her in such way so Gap took responsibility for Yasu's failures as well as for the pranks.

However when Yasu believed the gap between her and Shannon was shortening she was forced to face the fact she still couldn't get friendship and respect by the other girls. She tried being good, likely she tried hard but it didn't work.
Pranking the girls though was something Shannon would never do and Yasu back then didn't want to become something different from Shannon and yet... temptation was too strong.
It seems in Japanese myths there's some sort of legend about people being caught by 'a passing demon' that pushes them to act out of character all of sudden and then... leaves them.
Yasu might have felt something someting like that, something she wanted to do and yet rejected, a perfect fight between Id and Superego. That's likely why the blame goes to Gap, because there's a 'fracture' in her between what she wanted to do and what she should do. It's not her acting and yet it's her.

So in her embellishment of the story Yasu places the role on Gap but, at the end of the prank she's forced to face this 'dissonance' inside herself.

She has to become Shannon but now she realized being Beatrice might be more fulfilling. Yet she has to become Shannon. In a fashion, with the story of leaving Shannon, it's possible she tried to represent how she tried to cage and keep far from her those wishes, indulging in them only rarely.

It's as if she tried to hide/to cut away from her her childish/fantasy-prone side sort of like telling herself 'grow up, don't act like this anymore' and all the times she acts like this again are the times she falls into temptation again.
She sort of does the same thing all over again with her love for Battler, when she tries to erase it by passing it to Beatrice and then forgetting she had done it.

I think 'Beatrice' is the name she gives to all the sides of herself she wants to erase because they get in the way of how her superego, Shannon, has to be.

'Kanon' is instead the name given to the bitterness and lack of hope growing inside her.

So there's no Beatrice or Kanon. There's just Shannon/Yasu trying to deny some parts of her that act or want to act in a way she deems not proper and feeling increasingly bitter but unable to cope with it and things could go on pretty normal until she decides to act them out as if they were separate people.

When she started playing Kanon's role (I assume she did it not when 'Kanon' had birth in her mind but later, when she discovered she was the head and could tell Genji to orchestrate the whole thing so that no one will notice Kanon is her) giving herself a second identity that interacted with people and could act in a certain way all the time I think she really did herself more harm than good.

Even if before it was all symbolic she likely was already having self identity problems as she was denying part of herself. Add to this she discovered she was Kinzo's daughter/grandaughter with problems on her sexual organs and now she finds herself pursued by Jessica in her Kanon-role that probably allow her to express feelings she previously had to keep bottled up and yet be accepted anyway by Jessica and you can see how things are worsening leading her into further confusion about how she should be, how she should act, who she should be.

And then Battler comes back and I think a side of her blamed him as the source of all her troubles (if he'd come back sooner she wouldn't have sunk that deeper and she might not have discovered some things about herself) while another likely just wanted Battler to act as a prince and save her (she probably felt around Battler back in the past she acted more like herself and hoped he might have been able to accept her and take her away from that situation sparing her from deciding if to be Shannon or Kanon) but what if Battler has really forgotten her or had just made a joke back then?

Not only he wouldn't save her NOW but he never planned to save her EARLIER.
She'd been a drama queen in wailing over Battler's lack of return and fussing over it and the mess she got herself in would be solely her own responsibility. So let's try and make Battler remember and then let's see how it'll plan.

If in Prime Battler is supposed to remember thanks to a game, a story or something equally innocent Yasu probably hadn't touched the bottom yet and, had things not gone wrong she could have still be saved.
If she really murdered people to make Battler remember... well, she was beyond salvation. She's mad as a horse and, even if Battler were to remember, he wouldn't be able to save her.

Surely the Yasu of the gameboards is beyond salvation. Was the Yasu of Prime beyond salvation as well? We'll never know...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 15:20   Link #30734
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Maybe Beatrice is just the name of a novel Kinzo lost during the war and couldn't get over it because he never got to finish the story.

More seriously tho, I think murders in the story don't reflect any reality of prime.
Just like losing a meta-battle can result in "dying". Just like George winning an argument against his mother was depicted as a fantasy battle that lead to her death in arc 6. Beatrice's murders of everyone in the story probably refers to something similar. If anything I can't help but think about arc 2 where the adults dies after believing in Beatrice/magic. "I defeated them all with my tricks" could be very well what this represents...

... I can almost see it being represented by a meta-battle occurring with victims and Beato always winning. Kinda like Kyrie vs Leviathan in arc 3.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 17:43   Link #30735
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Maybe Beatrice is just the name of a novel Kinzo lost during the war and couldn't get over it because he never got to finish the story.

More seriously tho, I think murders in the story don't reflect any reality of prime.
Just like losing a meta-battle can result in "dying". Just like George winning an argument against his mother was depicted as a fantasy battle that lead to her death in arc 6. Beatrice's murders of everyone in the story probably refers to something similar. If anything I can't help but think about arc 2 where the adults dies after believing in Beatrice/magic. "I defeated them all with my tricks" could be very well what this represents...

... I can almost see it being represented by a meta-battle occurring with victims and Beato always winning. Kinda like Kyrie vs Leviathan in arc 3.
Well, for sure it's unlikely the gameboards reflect exactly prime's reality as they're merely tales born prior and after prime.
The real question is: how much of the gameboards also happened on Prime?
Assuming the info we learn about what's outside the box are true all we know is:

- a boy that was assumed to be Kanon went to Jessica's school
- in George's house were found letters sent by Shannon that presumably implied closeness between them
- Rudolf's family minus Ange, Eva's family and Rosa's family went on the island using first a plane and then a boat, Jessica and Kumasawa went to get them.
- Battler, as usual, made a rucus on the boat
- Rosa was likely seen beating Maria while on the train. The social services also suspected her of not being a good mother
- letters were sent containing what was needed to get to a bank account with lot of money in.
- apparently messages in the bottles containing tales were sent before the incident
- all the siblings had money troubles
- by a while Kinzo wasn't showing himself to the servants who weren't Genji, Shannon or Kanon (and possibly Kumasawa) or to other people that weren't Krauss, Natsuhi or Nanjo.
- a bomb exploded at midnight
- Eva escaped with the head's ring and reached Kuwadorian
- Battler also escaped through an underground tunnel (possibly with someone else) but didn't reach Kuwadorian. He managed to leave the island through and no one heard of him until he showed up in front of Ange years later
- Ryukishi said something along the line of how it's easy to figure out the adults did something that caused that mess.

Now... if the first 2 gameboards represented tales written prior to the incident at best they can represent what Yasu had in mind to do (a game or a mass murder based on the epitaph) and how she planned to attuate it (hiring accomplices) while the other gameboards might contain bits of how things really went.

Which are those bits however is hard as hell if not impossible to say for sure.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-23, 19:53   Link #30736
tempteste
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Quote:
When she started playing Kanon's role (I assume she did it not when 'Kanon' had birth in her mind but later, when she discovered she was the head and could tell Genji to orchestrate the whole thing so that no one will notice Kanon is her)
Except Kanon appeared on Rokkenjima a year before that as a special servant like Genji, Kinzo treated him nicely and was teaching him how to use guns.
And why would she even start playing Kanon's role? Is there any particular reason?
tempteste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-24, 05:16   Link #30737
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yes, remember that Kratsuhi was only threatened with the bomb because they were especially prideful. The implication was that the other adults would probably participate for just the money, if they were lead to believe the whole thing was fake, anyway.
It was only Natsuhi's pride, actually. Krauss apparently would be included with the others as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Anyway, what I find most interesting about the gameboard presented so far is
1. It only involves 10 people dying, since the 2nd Twilight is being interpreted differently
2. It's probably the most involvement Krauss has ever had
3. No seriously, did she say that there was going to be a giant exploded hole in Kinzo's study??
1) Nine, if you don't count Kanon. A whopping seven people still alive when Yasu apparently offs herself.
3) She blew it up the same way she blew up the shrine... I guess.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-24, 07:02   Link #30738
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
You know, the manga makes it seems like Rudolf killed Rosa and Maria in game 3. I wonder what the disagreement was about...
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-24, 08:36   Link #30739
GoldenLand
Eaten by goats
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
I have a really hard time with the idea of Natsuhi's pride being such that the most sensible way to get her to go along with Beatrice's plan is to tell her that people will really die and to threaten to kill her and her family if they don't do what she says - particularly in a situation where Natsuhi was unlikely to trust in Beatrice's guarantees of their safety. Doesn't make sense.

There are, surely, better ways to go about that. There's no need to up the ante by telling Natsuhi that it's any more than a fake murder game. What about blackmailing her with info that would damage the honour of the family if it got released? "If you don't go along with this harmless game, I'll release information about Krauss's failed finances/Kinzo's death and the big cover-up/Kinzo's skeevy past/the child from 19 years ago, but if you do go along with it I'll give you loads of money and never say a word."
GoldenLand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-24, 12:45   Link #30740
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
You know, the manga makes it seems like Rudolf killed Rosa and Maria in game 3. I wonder what the disagreement was about...
...Seriously? Could you elaborate on that? Because Will's "no contradictions in their final moments as told" pretty much confirms that it was either Eva or Yasu, to my mind.
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.