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Old 2012-09-24, 15:23   Link #30741
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
Except Kanon appeared on Rokkenjima a year before that as a special servant like Genji, Kinzo treated him nicely and was teaching him how to use guns.
And why would she even start playing Kanon's role? Is there any particular reason?
It's such an old theory I didn't include it in my explanation but here it is:

After Kinzo's death 'Kanon' was 'hired' by Natsuhi and Krauss to play the role of Kinzo's faithful servant.
In short 'he' should have been another witnesser of how Kinzo was alive, expecially in front of the siblings but possibly also in front of other servants. Where's Kanon when he's not being seen and Shannon is at school? Serving Kinzo, cleaning his room and stuffs.
Otherwise you should pay one of the servants who knows the truth to fake serving Kinzo in front of the other servants.
Also when the siblings are on the island if the staff was solely of Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda and Shannon it might look a little too small.
Genji after all is the head servant, who shouldn't take care of small tasks and Kumasawa is old and not judged a great worker.
Gohda is supposed to work in the kitchen so who remains? Just Shannon.
If Ep 7 is to take into consideration the Ushiromiya used to have a higher number of young servants in service at the same time than just 1.

Natsuhi & Krauss' coperation insures that:

- the servants' schedule, which is also checked by Natsuhi, always allow Shannon & Kanon to never have to be at the same time in a place along with a third servant who's not aware Kanon doesn't exist

- Shannon and Kanon will never have two different works in two different places that can both be witnessed by external observers at the same time so that someone will realize that one of them isn't there

- Kanon can be introduced as a person different by Shannon to everyone else by someone who won't be suspected of lying so that the resemblance between the two will be viewed as a casuality

- As Jessica isn't always on the island the fact she didn't met Kanon until a certain time can be explained with the fact that when she was on the island, Kanon's schedule placed him some other place. She would have no reason to suspect she's been lied about when Kanon was hired.

- The other servants might have been replaced short after Kinzo's death so they wouldn't be able to testify Kanon wasn't there previously as servants usually don't work for long time for the Ushiromiya (Shannon/Kanon, Kumasawa and Genji being stated as exceptions)

- Kanon's bad manners aren't scolded by Natsuhi as much as she would do with other servants (somewhere it was stated Natsuhi for a while seemed to have a weak side for Kanon according to the servants) as his lack of social manners would be part of the disguise (the less Kanon talks and look at people in the eyes the less chances there are he's recognized)

- Although Kanon didn't come from Fukuin along with another bunch of servants no one would notice. The new servants would think he got on Rokkenjima a year earlier than them and that's why he didn't do the travel with them, Genji, Natsuhi and Krauss on the other side would be aware he's just a disguise and won't have troubles about it.

- Prior to Kinzo's death Yasu had no way to order Genji to help her to cover up for everything that includes her playing a second role, starting from hiring her on disguise along with other servants, cover up the fact that Kanon just didn't come from Fukuin to their schedules, to the fact that Kanon, a newcomer, was chosen to become Kinzo's special servant (everyone else with that role is a seasoned servant). For her to keep up playing two roles without any accomplices for such a long time and from the position of a common servant without being discovered by Genji or Natsuhi or any other servant would be impossible.

- If Kinzo or Genji were to ask Shannon to play two roles it could work but it would be totally odd and isn't foreshadowed at all. It's implied that Kinzo didn't recognize Yasu as his daughter/son/grandaugther/grandson before she/he solved the epitaph though he hoped she/he was still alive. Genji might have done it but there's no trace of Genji being involved in Kanon's birth as Yasu/Clair narrated it.

- Yasu had no real reason to give life to Kanon two years prior the incident apart from companionship and, if that's all she wanted, an immaginary servant like Shannon originally was would work just fine.

- Kanon's memories about being taught to shoot by Kinzo might have been merely Yasu's memories. As shooting is more a male activity than an activity fitting for a girlish girl like Shannon, she handed them to Kanon so as to form his background.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
You know, the manga makes it seems like Rudolf killed Rosa and Maria in game 3. I wonder what the disagreement was about...
The only reason for Rudolf to kill Rosa would be because she had confessed they had discovered the gold and he wanted to get rid of her as a possible rival. Next would come Hideyoshi (it was implied it was Kirye's gun that shot Hideyoshi) and then likely Eva, Natsuhi and Krauss.

This though would give Ep 3 2/3 culprits instead than just 1, Yasu/Beatrice (who, for sure, killed Nanjo). I think the possibility of EP 3 having more than 1 culprit was discussed not much time ago but no one managed to find a theory that persuaded everyone.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
...Seriously? Could you elaborate on that? Because Will's "no contradictions in their final moments as told" pretty much confirms that it was either Eva or Yasu, to my mind.
I've always thought Will's words just mean that 'no magic trick' was involved.
In short Maria realy died by strangulation and Rosa was really stabbed by the fence. In short nobody lied about this and there was nothing suspicious in how they died.

This however doesn't point out to a specifical culprit, just at the manner of their deaths.

(after reading Our Confession I've been wondering if it's possible the culprit first shoot Rosa in the mouth and then stabbed her on the fence to cover the fact she was shoot as murdering her by stabbing her to the fence looks rather unpractical but it could have been an incident in which she was pushed and fell and Maria was strangled because she witnessed the incident)

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I have a really hard time with the idea of Natsuhi's pride being such that the most sensible way to get her to go along with Beatrice's plan is to tell her that people will really die and to threaten to kill her and her family if they don't do what she says - particularly in a situation where Natsuhi was unlikely to trust in Beatrice's guarantees of their safety. Doesn't make sense.

There are, surely, better ways to go about that. There's no need to up the ante by telling Natsuhi that it's any more than a fake murder game. What about blackmailing her with info that would damage the honour of the family if it got released? "If you don't go along with this harmless game, I'll release information about Krauss's failed finances/Kinzo's death and the big cover-up/Kinzo's skeevy past/the child from 19 years ago, but if you do go along with it I'll give you loads of money and never say a word."
I think this is a weakness of Beato's tales.
Motives.
Even Kumasawa and Co. playing such an elaborate prank aware that someone else believed he was being threatened just to get some money that yasu owned illegally... well, that too seems weird.
though Natsuhi in EP 5 also will show she is too easy into believing in this sort of things (because really, who just killed your daughter and her cousins along with Rosa and a servant surely won't kill Krauss if you do as he says... but she was believing this guy even sooner, when he had captured no one and had no way to prove he was who he said or that she did what he said...)
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Old 2012-09-24, 15:59   Link #30742
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Kanon's memories in ep6 are actually a huge problem and they're so fleeting that it seems largely irrelevant, yet the details seem... really important?

I mean, the part about hanging out shooting guns off with Kinzo and pranking and whatnot portrays a level of relationship between Kanon/Yasu/Somebody(?) that isn't really touched on anywhere else. Just how close was Yasu with Kinzo in the first place? If Genji's goal was to shelter Yasu in plain sight, would he ever allow her to become close to Kinzo and potentially spend some time alone with him? If he was truly concerned about Kinzo "repeating his mistake" the way he supposedly claimed, he would never permit that to happen. Moreover, it would utterly fly in the face of the way Requiem seems to portray their relationship and Kinzo's recognition.

I'd say it's contradictory or meaningless and confined to Dawn, but it doesn't have to be... it just has to cast the Prime relationship between Yasu, Genji, Kumasawa, and Kinzo in a very different light than what is implied otherwise.

I find it very difficult to believe Kinzo could have a close - even foster-fatherly - relationship with Yasu and never once notice anything about him/her, even if it was done strictly in the guise of Kanon (although if it was, we have serious time issues because Kinzo shouldn't even be alive very long and certainly shouldn't be out and about). That leads me to wonder one of two things, both of which would make the entire "presentation" scene heavily metaphorical:
  • Yasu really was Beatrice's child, and Kinzo knew it all along but pretended he didn't, acting as a father figure to Yasu while trying to be actually fatherly. He chose to pass his legacy and fortune to Yasu either admitting to their relationship at long last or because Yasu really did solve the epitaph.
  • Yasu wasn't really Beatrice's child, so Kinzo never saw any resemblance; however, he grew close to Yasu and formed a strong bond. Yasu eventually was challenged to solve the epitaph and did so; Kinzo then symbolically proclaimed Yasu to be the heir he wished he had had, and divested everything to him/her. This may or may not have been part of Genji's plan all along, for whatever end Genji may have had.
Essentially, it wasn't really "some guy I barely know creeped on me while I was in a dress because I solved his dumb puzzle," but "Kinzo, with whom I have a very close relationship, chose to pass on everything to me as a symbolic act of atonement [because I am his lost child and he knew it and tried to make up for his sins / because I was able to help him through his regrets in a way his real children couldn't or wouldn't and he has taken me as his own in gratitude]."

It's at least a bit less weird and unsettling, and might redeem Genji a bit. It's also 100% speculative with nothing backing it up, but it would sort of explain Genji's seemingly robotic loyalty if the whole Yasu thing was an intentional ploy on his part to get at Kinzo's money and when Yasu was given control of everything he was forced to follow her instructions because otherwise there'd be no way for him to get at it.
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Old 2012-09-24, 16:41   Link #30743
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kanon's memories in ep6 are actually a huge problem and they're so fleeting that it seems largely irrelevant, yet the details seem... really important?

I mean, the part about hanging out shooting guns off with Kinzo and pranking and whatnot portrays a level of relationship between Kanon/Yasu/Somebody(?) that isn't really touched on anywhere else. Just how close was Yasu with Kinzo in the first place? If Genji's goal was to shelter Yasu in plain sight, would he ever allow her to become close to Kinzo and potentially spend some time alone with him? If he was truly concerned about Kinzo "repeating his mistake" the way he supposedly claimed, he would never permit that to happen. Moreover, it would utterly fly in the face of the way Requiem seems to portray their relationship and Kinzo's recognition.

I'd say it's contradictory or meaningless and confined to Dawn, but it doesn't have to be... it just has to cast the Prime relationship between Yasu, Genji, Kumasawa, and Kinzo in a very different light than what is implied otherwise.

I find it very difficult to believe Kinzo could have a close - even foster-fatherly - relationship with Yasu and never once notice anything about him/her, even if it was done strictly in the guise of Kanon (although if it was, we have serious time issues because Kinzo shouldn't even be alive very long and certainly shouldn't be out and about). That leads me to wonder one of two things, both of which would make the entire "presentation" scene heavily metaphorical:
  • Yasu really was Beatrice's child, and Kinzo knew it all along but pretended he didn't, acting as a father figure to Yasu while trying to be actually fatherly. He chose to pass his legacy and fortune to Yasu either admitting to their relationship at long last or because Yasu really did solve the epitaph.
  • Yasu wasn't really Beatrice's child, so Kinzo never saw any resemblance; however, he grew close to Yasu and formed a strong bond. Yasu eventually was challenged to solve the epitaph and did so; Kinzo then symbolically proclaimed Yasu to be the heir he wished he had had, and divested everything to him/her. This may or may not have been part of Genji's plan all along, for whatever end Genji may have had.
Essentially, it wasn't really "some guy I barely know creeped on me while I was in a dress because I solved his dumb puzzle," but "Kinzo, with whom I have a very close relationship, chose to pass on everything to me as a symbolic act of atonement [because I am his lost child and he knew it and tried to make up for his sins / because I was able to help him through his regrets in a way his real children couldn't or wouldn't and he has taken me as his own in gratitude]."

It's at least a bit less weird and unsettling, and might redeem Genji a bit. It's also 100% speculative with nothing backing it up, but it would sort of explain Genji's seemingly robotic loyalty if the whole Yasu thing was an intentional ploy on his part to get at Kinzo's money and when Yasu was given control of everything he was forced to follow her instructions because otherwise there'd be no way for him to get at it.
It's an interesting theory even if I admit I've always viewed Kanon's memories as a counterweight to all the bad memories Yasu seemed to have and it's particularly meaningful they're told from Kanon's eyes as Kanon was the one always grumbling and complaining about everyone.

It's sort of: yes, they had some serious bad sides but they weren't completely bad. There was also something nice in them.

At the same time I don't think they were all that many happy memories.
It's sort of like when Natsuhi said that once, when she was in a good mood, she shared with Shannon which one was her fave season.
How many times Natsuhi was in a good mood and felt like being friendly with Shannon?
It's possible they weren't so many yet for Shannon they probably were meaningful.

The same can be applied to Kinzo. Maybe a bunch of times he felt in a good mood and felt like making pranks with Yasu's help. For Yasu surely those moments were important, especially after she discovered he was her father but... how many times it happened in reality?

To be honest it's not possible to say if they happened often or rarely.

As Umineko present a setting that, from Yasu's perspective, is more painful than pleasant I'll say few. It can be it was more often but Yasu was so depressed she was unable to notice it.

Genji is really poorly explained, isn't it?
In an ordinary story I would say since we learn little about him what we learn is to take at face value without doubting it... the problem is his behaviour makes so little sense than simply accepting it becomes pretty hard...
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Old 2012-09-24, 16:51   Link #30744
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See, I view it the opposite way: I don't think Shannon's memories of Natsuhi's good moods would be something she'd even have any recollection of if Natsuhi didn't have them with some degree of regularity. "When she's in a good mood" implies that Natsuhi was often not in a good mood, but given Natsuhi's tendency to swings in mood I have to imagine she was in one more often than "that one time she told me her favorite season."

It honestly doesn't even make sense any other way. I doubt Natsuhi would tell Shannon such an inconsequential detail if she weren't reasonably conversational with her when she's in a good mood, which probably happened semi-regularly. They'd have to steer the topic in that direction, and that necessitates that Shannon/Yasu and Natsuhi had actual conversations more often than any of the backstory otherwise implies.

Likewise, Kanon mentioning hanging out with Kinzo to me seems to suggest this was a more regular occurrence than "Kinzo hung out with me once." The entire phrasing of the memory scene strikes me as Kanon cherry-picking out fond memories that happen to come to mind, not single distinct happy events that were completely isolated from anything else that he ever experienced.

In other words, I'm inclined to think that Yasu was pretty close to everybody who lived on the island full-time, and probably had more good memories of them than bad memories. Hell, Jessica seems to consider Shannon her best friend, but we know nothing about this in any appreciable sense. Did they hang out at school? Did they talk? What did they talk about? Did they ever hang out in Nijima together? When they were cut off from Rokkenjima by weather, did they wait it out at the same apartment or at least the same complex? There's a lot unsaid there, and yet I have to think the answer is "they probably did hang out a lot." Yet we hear very little about this. If the answer is the opposite, we hear remarkably little about that either.

Yet it seems like this stuff is pretty important. If Yasu does have a very close relationship with everyone in real life, I cannot even begin to imagine she'd ever desire harm to come to any of them no matter the reason. And if she doesn't have a close relationship, where are all these fond memories coming from?
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Old 2012-09-24, 19:08   Link #30745
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
See, I view it the opposite way: I don't think Shannon's memories of Natsuhi's good moods would be something she'd even have any recollection of if Natsuhi didn't have them with some degree of regularity. "When she's in a good mood" implies that Natsuhi was often not in a good mood, but given Natsuhi's tendency to swings in mood I have to imagine she was in one more often than "that one time she told me her favorite season."

It honestly doesn't even make sense any other way. I doubt Natsuhi would tell Shannon such an inconsequential detail if she weren't reasonably conversational with her when she's in a good mood, which probably happened semi-regularly. They'd have to steer the topic in that direction, and that necessitates that Shannon/Yasu and Natsuhi had actual conversations more often than any of the backstory otherwise implies.

Likewise, Kanon mentioning hanging out with Kinzo to me seems to suggest this was a more regular occurrence than "Kinzo hung out with me once." The entire phrasing of the memory scene strikes me as Kanon cherry-picking out fond memories that happen to come to mind, not single distinct happy events that were completely isolated from anything else that he ever experienced.

In other words, I'm inclined to think that Yasu was pretty close to everybody who lived on the island full-time, and probably had more good memories of them than bad memories. Hell, Jessica seems to consider Shannon her best friend, but we know nothing about this in any appreciable sense. Did they hang out at school? Did they talk? What did they talk about? Did they ever hang out in Nijima together? When they were cut off from Rokkenjima by weather, did they wait it out at the same apartment or at least the same complex? There's a lot unsaid there, and yet I have to think the answer is "they probably did hang out a lot." Yet we hear very little about this. If the answer is the opposite, we hear remarkably little about that either.

Yet it seems like this stuff is pretty important. If Yasu does have a very close relationship with everyone in real life, I cannot even begin to imagine she'd ever desire harm to come to any of them no matter the reason. And if she doesn't have a close relationship, where are all these fond memories coming from?
Actually I've experienced the opposite.
Exactly because I saw certain people rarely in a good mood, those moments impressed me strongly than the others of another person who was in a good mood more often.
For me it wasn't a big deal as I didn't have emotional dependance on those people, it was more like a 'how weird, she's in a good mood, well, it wouldn't be bad if it were to last' but for Yasu who's desperately seeking for affection those moments can have taken a way bigger importance.

'Oh, madam spoke to me today and she wasn't angry! maybe she's starting to like me! How nice we like the same season, doesn't this give us something in common? I wonder if she'll speak nicely with me tomorrow as well...' and so on.

I don't really find that topic too hard to come up as it could have been all very casual. When someone is in an expecially good mood he/she could end up saying 'he loves X' all by himself, without a really big prompting. Natsuhi liking fall isn't such personal information she has to keep it hidden.
After all Natsuhi said:

Quote:
On a Fall day long ago, I happened to be in a good mood, and I mentioned that Fall was my favorite of the four seasons.
which seems to imply if she wasn't in a good mood she wouldn't have mentioned it at all, and she said mentioned, which seems to imply more to a passing comment than to a real discussion.

But honestly I find all this very hypothetical as each person differs in why they would remember something. For example from your words I guess that for you it would be easy to remember something if it were to happen more often, while for me it worked in the opposte way so we can't really figure out if Yasu is more similar to you or to me.

Again it's entirely possible that Kanon had many good memories with Kinzo... or that he's giving giant size importance to tiny details that, for her, were meaningful (a little like how she obsessed over Battler's promise).

Without a reliable point of view it's impossible to tell how good Yasu's relations were with everyone and, after all, according to Yasu's perception whatever objective answer we were to give could be irrelevant.

If Yasu thinks Natsuhi... let's say hates her for her their relation is horrible, if she thinks the opposite their relation is good, regardless of how Natsuhi feels or how things look on the outside.
Think at little Maria who insisted on how good her relation was with her mother...
we go and say that Maria and Rosa probably had a relation with up and down but we can't really know how often it was up and how often it was down, we give a judgement based on our perception.

In the beginning even Ange let us believe that her relation with Eva was all screwed up but then in Ep 8 she said they also had some not so bad moments.

So, even with Jessica... I think Jessica honestly believed Shannon was her best friend, which probably meant that compared to all her other friends Shannon was special to her. This though can translate in tons of different things.

Maybe they never hang out that much for reason X but the few moments they spend together Jessica was willing to tell Shannon each of her secrets and thrusted her judgement.

This doesn't tell us though how Shannon perceived what Jessica did.
Was it nice for her to have Jessica as a friend or she found it more torubles than worth? Was she honest with her or she felt as if she had to act a part because, after all, Jessica was her boss' daughter? Did she have a time in which she genuintely felt friend with her then she discovered she was the real heir and not Jessica and resented her for having the life she should have had?

Most of this is left up to speculation.
To accept that PieceYasu could kill everyone I've to picture her in such an emotional state she believed no one could 'save' her, that she wouldn't regret the loss of those people, that everything was wrecked and so on.

Beato killing Kumasawa in Our Confession is a pretty horrible scene but, if you think at it, Yasu had no problems at stabbing in the back Jessica in Ep 2, shooting George in Ep 3, killing them both in Ep 4, causing them pain by faking her own death as well as the death of their own families.

PieceYasu has reached a point at which she doesn't care for anyone anymore. So really, even if she might have cared for Jessica at some point, those days, in Rokkenjima, it's unlikely she still did.

We wonder if PrimeYasu can reach the same level but, from the little said about her, I really don't know. If I take Ep 6 as a parallel I would say that PrimeYasu was stopped from reaching that level and, as Ep 8 said, she never killed anyone for real. However I can't prove she never had the intention of doing it or that she refused to do it because she cared.
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Old 2012-09-25, 00:18   Link #30746
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I'm just going to one up Renall's last two posts 100% and say I choose to believe Yasu was well loved on the island and had a strong relationship with those people, because she is demonstrated to have a very intense love for all of these people in return, and that needs some sort of foundation.

And anything to make Yasu not the culprit. <3
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Old 2012-09-25, 00:26   Link #30747
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It's such an old theory I didn't include it in my explanation but here it is
Seems nice.
What do you think of the furniture complex/Shkanon duel? And does Lion crossdress in his/her kakera or not? If yes, then why?
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Old 2012-09-25, 01:40   Link #30748
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I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I'm just going to post this shit. Maybe you've already seen it, but I just found it and had to put it somewhere.

Spoiler for PS3 sprite of young kinzo:


I can't say with words how glad I am that Young Kinzo wasn't made a Battler clone. There's resemblance, but it's less crazy than the original art XD
Also, Ange's dress is great.
In a completely unrelated pic... maybe it's like really old. Maybe I just found it awesome. Erika and Dlanor have such awesome cool faces...
Spoiler for Trolfaces:

And rosa. Gotta love rosa. She's not a fantasy char, but still it's scary as hell...
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Old 2012-09-25, 04:55   Link #30749
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I mean, the part about hanging out shooting guns off with Kinzo and pranking and whatnot portrays a level of relationship between Kanon/Yasu/Somebody(?) that isn't really touched on anywhere else.
Not true, in one of the earlier games (2 I think?) the Illusion of Kinzo offers Kanon a sweet from a bag on the dresser for being a good servant. Kanon goes all blah blah furniture on him, but it was still hinted. Moreover, it was so out of place in that scene/story and out of place for Kinzo it was either poor writing by Ryu or a hint.
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Old 2012-09-25, 05:00   Link #30750
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Or it could've just been an indication that, like Genji, the other One Winged Servants are special to him.

But it's not really comparable. There's a canyon of difference between rewarding a good child servant and shooting guns with him. There's also a difference between anything that goes on in Kinzo's study and what he apparently does in the front lawn.
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Old 2012-09-25, 07:03   Link #30751
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Due to Higurashi's paranoia syndrome connected to aliens through all the anime I was expecting Umineko's solution to be something weird as well and not mystery like as well.
Heh, I was just the opposite. As soon as Kanon's body disappeared into the floor, I knew something was up. I was... aware of Higurashi's answers, and kept telling myself "the syringe was just a marker ... the syringe was just a marker ... so where the hell did Kanon go? He just walked out the door and locked it, right?"

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... I can almost see it being represented by a meta-battle occurring with victims and Beato always winning. Kinda like Kyrie vs Leviathan in arc 3.
Well, let's not confuse the Meta narrative, and the fantasy narrative of the gameboards. Even in Our Confessions, there's only the skeleton of a plot, and the tricks that will be used ... it hasn't been fully adorned with themes, foreshadowing, and character development or anything. Considering what most likely happened in the mansion in EP3, it's pretty likely that Kyrie and Rudolf's kickass fight scenes were in there ... for some characterization, and to have a kickass fight scene.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Which are those bits however is hard as hell if not impossible to say for sure.
The forgeries are also written by Ryukishi, who presumably has SOME idea of "what really happened", so I prefer to think that all of the Gameboards we were shown (even the very strange EP5) have some elements of the truth in them.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It's such an old theory I didn't include it in my explanation but here it is:
As far as I recall, there were several other Fukuin servants employed in 1986, it's just that none of them were working those days. And while Kratsuhi's cooperation allows for a lot, as you say, based on Our Confessions, "the plan" works just as well if they are totally ignored and she chooses, say, Evayoshi for accomplices. I believe they were only approached after the typhoon had already started, so the opportunity to set things up long beforehand is lost...

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Or it could've just been an indication that, like Genji, the other One Winged Servants are special to him.
Man, I've always questioned the "trusted servant" bit. Mostly, it seems that Kumasawa would totally be one, since she's in everyone's business anyway and has worked there forever, aaaaand we're never given any details about how Shannon or Kanon earned that status. It just takes me back to when I first started, and theories abounded that Kinzo was ... doing weird things with the Fukuin servants, or whatever.
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:31   Link #30752
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My problem with the whole "let's go out shootin' kiddo" thing is that if it's true, surely somebody on the island must've heard it. If Kinzo was known to do that, wouldn't somebody at some point have said that? The adults go get the guns and talk a lot about Kinzo's collection but they're never like "Man, Dad used to shoot these things all day if Mom would let him." Natsuhi probably would gripe about it, I can't imagine noisy gunfire from sorta nearby wouldn't bother her on migraine days.

Which to me suggests that either it didn't happen (in which case what was the point of Kanon thinking it) or it was done out on the other side of the island, in which case it would seem to suggest Kanon, and therefore Yasu, was familiar with Kuwadorian prior to actually finding the way to the place (in which case it contradicts ep7). Either of these creates significant issues. It doesn't really seem to be an easily-reconciled memory with the rest of the data in the story, but if it's just there because it's there what the hell was the point of it?

EDIT: Also let's not forget Yasu wasn't "obsessing over Battler's promise" solely in the context of the promise itself. The promise followed a developed relationship founded on mutual interests. Would she have cared so much about the promise itself if she didn't care so much about Battler to begin with? And if that's true, I find it hard to believe her particular fixation on certain individual moments indicates that those were the only pleasant ones she actually ever had. If she didn't bear at least a little affection for Natsuhi I don't think she would even have remembered that Natsuhi once shared some of her favorite things with her.

I get the sense the Yasu/Shannon-Prime and Natsuhi relationship was more "She got mad a lot when she was in a bad mood or had a migraine and was often critical of everybody's work, but when she was feeling better and I was in her room cleaning while she was resting she could be very nice and we'd talk a bit and she'd be very open with me about her feelings." Remember, Natsuhi is the first parent given the heroic treatment in Legend and she's treated pretty favorably overall in that story. She also overreacts and is critical in that story. So I think "prone to mood swings but kind and apologetic when feeling better" is a pretty accurate description of how she probably acted to the servants, and a servant who has been around as long as Shannon would've had a decent chance to bond with her a bit.
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:54   Link #30753
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
Seems nice.
What do you think of the furniture complex/Shkanon duel? And does Lion crossdress in his/her kakera or not? If yes, then why?
The furniture complex is, apparently, due to Yasu having a body unable to love.

The ShKanon duel looks similar to the complex that some people who have to handle a double life would develop.

In the end Yasu can't keep up forever being 2 people, she's supposed to chose 1 identity and get rid of the other. Ergo a metaphorical duel in which the losing identity would die.
As Kanon always lose even when he makes an effort to win I'll say Yasu, in the end, either favoured George or believed her relation with George would have more chances to work.
On the other side George and Jessica, who are in love of Shannon and Kanon, likely prepared themselves to face some hardship if they were to pursue their loves.

George having to metaphorically 'kill' Eva is a given as she would never accept him marrying Shannon.
Jessica killing Kyrie seems more an excuse to learn Kyrie's past but it can symbolically represent how Jessica is slowly building up her determination. After all, compared to George, she looked less ready to do everything but that duel seems to represent how she was starting to become more determinate.

Funny enough in real life it can be it was the pressure of both George and Jessica that caused the love duel in Yasu as otherwise maybe she might have thought to keep up two identities for a longer time.

Of course problems come when Battler comes up again.
Yasu actually hadn't given up on him yet... but is Battler interested in her? In the beginning Beato fights alone and doesn't seem to have a chance to win alone, which represent pretty well how Yasu might have wanted to choose Battler all along but didn't believe she could make it work till Battler didn't come back and helped and accepted her... at least that's what the magical scene imply.

In Lion's kakera Kinzo seems a decent grandad so I don't think he would force Lion to crossdress but would let Lion free to be whatever Lion is.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Heh, I was just the opposite. As soon as Kanon's body disappeared into the floor, I knew something was up. I was... aware of Higurashi's answers, and kept telling myself "the syringe was just a marker ... the syringe was just a marker ... so where the hell did Kanon go? He just walked out the door and locked it, right?"
Oh, I also thought there was probably a rational explanation for Kanon's disappearence but I was all 'magic is probably an allucination caused by the Rokkenjima syndrome and the real culprit is Umineko version of the Yamainu. Oh, looks who's there, Okonogi. Okay, confess, in what crazy scheme about aliens are you involved this time?'

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The forgeries are also written by Ryukishi, who presumably has SOME idea of "what really happened", so I prefer to think that all of the Gameboards we were shown (even the very strange EP5) have some elements of the truth in them.
It's a theory I apply when I try to build up a Prime scenario but it's one Ryukishi doesn't necessarily have to follow.
In short I like it, I personally use it but I can't prove it's right.

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As far as I recall, there were several other Fukuin servants employed in 1986, it's just that none of them were working those days. And while Kratsuhi's cooperation allows for a lot, as you say, based on Our Confessions, "the plan" works just as well if they are totally ignored and she chooses, say, Evayoshi for accomplices. I believe they were only approached after the typhoon had already started, so the opportunity to set things up long beforehand is lost...
hum... maybe i explained myself poorly.
Kratsuhi's cooperation is necessary to allow Kanon and Shannon to exist as apparently two separate identities for 2 years otherwise it would be impossible for Shannon to play Kanon's role also without never being caught in the act by Kratsuhi and Genji and the servants.

Then, once Yasu had Kratsuhi's cooperation to allow 'Kanon' to 'live' alongside with Shannon she could pick up other accomplices for the murder game... or use again Kratsuhi.
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Old 2012-09-25, 12:51   Link #30754
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Quote:
I get the sense the Yasu/Shannon-Prime and Natsuhi relationship was more "She got mad a lot when she was in a bad mood or had a migraine and was often critical of everybody's work, but when she was feeling better and I was in her room cleaning while she was resting she could be very nice and we'd talk a bit and she'd be very open with me about her feelings." Remember, Natsuhi is the first parent given the heroic treatment in Legend and she's treated pretty favorably overall in that story. She also overreacts and is critical in that story. So I think "prone to mood swings but kind and apologetic when feeling better" is a pretty accurate description of how she probably acted to the servants, and a servant who has been around as long as Shannon would've had a decent chance to bond with her a bit.
You know, this is a good point. On the surface, Natsuhi and Rosa of all people seem like a couple of the people Yasu should resent the least, but in the two stories she does read, they're both the big damn heroes of their chapters, indicating that Yasu bears no grudges at all and is fond of them despite their faults.

Huh.
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Old 2012-09-25, 13:30   Link #30755
tempteste
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The furniture complex is, apparently, due to Yasu having a body unable to love.

The ShKanon duel looks similar to the complex that some people who have to handle a double life would develop.
If furniture complex is about Yasu's body being unable to love, then why it changes in the duel? The reason why Shannon and Kanon fight is because they want to stop being furniture. Or Yasu uses it different ways, depending on the situation?

Quote:
In the end Yasu can't keep up forever being 2 people, she's supposed to chose 1 identity and get rid of the other.
Why Beato doesn't get a chance? Or why Yasu doesn't give herself a choice to run away from all of this and become another person?

Quote:
In Lion's kakera Kinzo seems a decent grandad so I don't think he would force Lion to crossdress but would let Lion free to be whatever Lion is.
But why Lion's gender is not seen as a first siblings excuse to take away the headship? To hide Lion's gender?
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Old 2012-09-25, 13:33   Link #30756
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I think more telling is that while Natsuhi is the big hero of Legend and Rosa of Turn, neither is excused of their flaws and indeed rather prominently displays them and, arguably, are undone by them (Natsuhi rushes out without telling anyone when she sees the letter, Rosa kicks Battler out even though she ought to know he can be trusted).

It's a balanced, but ultimately favorable opinion of them. Natsuhi and especially Rosa were extremely popular after Turn. This despite Rosa's considerable turn for the nasty that only got worse into Alliance... and in Alliance, we still get Maria basically loving her unconditionally and accepting her even though she's taken a number of actions that any fair person would say would give Maria every reason to despise her.

But then, even Maria gets a dark side by then... but overall, everybody's portrayal is largely kept at "has a darker part to them, but is overall kind and even heroic when they must be." This seems to fly in the face of the statements made by the narrator in the Requiem Tea Party. I'm not really sure whether Ryukishi made that contradiction intentional to lead us to doubt the narrator's words (and thus the EP7 TP scenario itself), or if he changed his mind or forgot somehow.
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Old 2012-09-25, 17:53   Link #30757
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Oh, I also thought there was probably a rational explanation for Kanon's disappearence but I was all 'magic is probably an allucination caused by the Rokkenjima syndrome and the real culprit is Umineko version of the Yamainu. Oh, looks who's there, Okonogi. Okay, confess, in what crazy scheme about aliens are you involved this time?'
Ah, well, I guess that's fair. I'll admit that I also expected something somewhat wilder than what we got, in the end.
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hum... maybe i explained myself poorly.
Kratsuhi's cooperation is necessary to allow Kanon and Shannon to exist as apparently two separate identities for 2 years otherwise it would be impossible for Shannon to play Kanon's role also without never being caught in the act by Kratsuhi and Genji and the servants.

Then, once Yasu had Kratsuhi's cooperation to allow 'Kanon' to 'live' alongside with Shannon she could pick up other accomplices for the murder game... or use again Kratsuhi.
Well, not necessarily. Assuming Kanon ever existed in Prime at all (the only thing we have is "My friends saw me with some dude at the culture festival, that one time!") it's very possible he only works, maybe, a single day a week or something (since even Shannon only does 3?), and besides, Genji is the middleman between Fukuin and Rokkenjima. It's said that Natsuhi made the servant schedule, true, but she has no specific reason to make Shannon and Kanon work at the same time, especially if Genji says "I feel that's unnecessary" or something.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You know, this is a good point. On the surface, Natsuhi and Rosa of all people seem like a couple of the people Yasu should resent the least, but in the two stories she does read, they're both the big damn heroes of their chapters, indicating that Yasu bears no grudges at all and is fond of them despite their faults.

Huh.
It does? I figure Yasu-as-writer just likes layered characterization, and people being randomly badass because DRAMA. I mean, even Godha (who she seems to genuinely kinda dislike) is portrayed like a big, pitiable puppy. And Battler, or Ryukishi, or SOMEONE still owes us a scene of Godha using his Aikido skills to blow away a storm of goats using kitchen utensils..!! It was promised..!!

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But why Lion's gender is not seen as a first siblings excuse to take away the headship? To hide Lion's gender?
At least on this I can say that Lion's gender doesn't really matter, as far as the headship is concerned. After all, Jessica's usually the next in line and nobody gives her any guff about her female-ness in the meantime. Heck, outside of maybe Krauss (who'd prob be happy with either of his kids being the head), the Ushiromiya Family, as of 1986, isn't even anywhere nearly as chauvinistic as the narration implied.
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Old 2012-09-25, 17:57   Link #30758
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Originally Posted by tempteste View Post
If furniture complex is about Yasu's body being unable to love, then why it changes in the duel? The reason why Shannon and Kanon fight is because they want to stop being furniture. Or Yasu uses it different ways, depending on the situation?
The magic side present the duel as a way to magically fix either Shannon or Kanon. Likely Yasu's body won't be fixed by her deciding if to be Shannon or Kanon.
However I guess she thought if she were to make a choice and manage to love and be loved and accepted by another person she would manage to accept herself and overcome her complex.

Shannon says in one of the first episodes her love stops her from being a furniture any longer so I guess Yasu might have thought love could 'fix things', make her feel better.

Ence her attempt to pursue a love and let the others go, finally making a decision about her life. All this is likely metaphorically represented in a love duel between Shannon and Kanon for George and Jessica.

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Why Beato doesn't get a chance? Or why Yasu doesn't give herself a choice to run away from all of this and become another person?
Well, you should ask Yasu.
Anyway what Umineko tells us is that first Yasu decided to wait for Battler's return without doing nothing (phoning him, writing him, searching for him in any other way) then the pain of waiting for him fearing he would never come back was too big she tried to get rid of those feelings which are metaphorically pushed on Beato.

In short Beato loses because Yasu had officially given up.

According to Ep 7 it can be guessed that, even if Ep 6 depict the love duel as appening in Rokkenjima whose fateful days it's more likely it took place earlier and that Yasu had already taken a decision (likely escaping with George considering it's always Shannon that wins, though it can also be to accept George's ring and then disappear on her own) when Battler's return scrambles her plans.
Even if she tried to erase her feeling for Battler evidently she didn't do a good job and, even if she has feelings for George evidently she's not so sure about them and so this metaphorically translate into Beato having a chance to win the love duel as soon as Battler shows up.
Her killing Natsuhi might represent her overcoming the problems she had and that were caused by Natsuhi throwing her off the cliff and she kills Natsuhi only with Battler's help. In short this can represent she can get over her troubles only if she has Battler supporting her.

Interesting enough in the trial Kanon and Shannon kill Rosa and Maria. Rosa is just presented like the person who was left being to wait endlessly for a love that won't return, which is close to how Yasu was, a status she pushed on Beato while Maria is Beato's best friend.

In a fashion, to make her love win, Kanon and Shannon somehow kill something that symbolically represent all that Yasu put into Beato, the love for Battler and the love for magic.

Many had wondered about WHY Yasu didn't simply chase after Battler. Umineko said she was too shy and afraid of rejection. That's all we're allowed to know.

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But why Lion's gender is not seen as a first siblings excuse to take away the headship? To hide Lion's gender?
Lion's gender is unknown and Ryukishi wants it to stay unknown.
So no discussion about Lion's gender can be done.
Plus there's the problem that the siblings aren't really that prone to discuss Kinzo's wishes or so they're represented, Eva being the only one that here and there tried to talk back when younger.
Also Lion was chosen as the heir way sooner than 1986. If they wanted to discuss the gender (assuming Lion is a girl and there's something to discuss and they've the gut to discuss it) they probably did it back then and Kinzo likely made clear his own opinion about their opinion.

All in all, not only Ryukishi wouldn't let them discuss about Lion's gender but if a discussion needed to be done and they wanted to do it, it would have been done earlier.
in short, no matter what, we won't get it.

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Well, not necessarily. Assuming Kanon ever existed in Prime at all (the only thing we have is "My friends saw me with some dude at the culture festival, that one time!") it's very possible he only works, maybe, a single day a week or something (since even Shannon only does 3?), and besides, Genji is the middleman between Fukuin and Rokkenjima. It's said that Natsuhi made the servant schedule, true, but she has no specific reason to make Shannon and Kanon work at the same time, especially if Genji says "I feel that's unnecessary" or something.
Shannon is supposed to be at school when not working and Jessica and the boat captain would notice if she were to do differently. This would make difficult for Yasu to work as Kanon is Shannon's free days as Yasu is supposed to be in another island.
While Natsuhi has no reason to make Shannon and Kanon work at the same time she also has no reason to stop them from working at the same time.
Note that in Umineko she let them work at the same time and apparently she isn't always an accomplice. What would have stopped her from doing it sooner?
Genji would cover up for Kanon only if he were Yasu's accomplice but Yasu can count on Genji being an accomplice in this only after she learnt who she really was.
Previously I doubt she would dare asking Genji to hire her a second time as a boy and cover up for her with Natsuhi as, as far as she knows, Genji has no reason to trick his boss to let her do something that insane.
Nor Yasu has a reason to do all this.

And there are many other reasons for which it would be imposible for Yasu to keep up the illusion of Kanon without accomplices, accomplices she could get only after Kinzo died.

Ergo is more likely that Kanon first had birth as an immaginary friend, like Shannon was, and only later Yasu took upon herself to give a physical body to him, same as she did with Shannon and as she tried to do with Beato.


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At least on this I can say that Lion's gender doesn't really matter, as far as the headship is concerned. After all, Jessica's usually the next in line and nobody gives her any guff about her female-ness in the meantime. Heck, outside of maybe Krauss (who'd prob be happy with either of his kids being the head), the Ushiromiya Family, as of 1986, isn't even anywhere nearly as chauvinistic as the narration implied.
Exactly. And in Lion's case they would have even less reasons to complain about this.
If Krauss complains Jessica loses the headship as well.
If Eva complains she looks an hypocrite as she spent most of her time complaining about how she was discriminated. In fact she tries to push forward George but she never directly attack Jessica, at best she makes subtle remarks about how a woman's joy might not necessary be in being the head.
I doubt Rosa would complain over Kinzo's decision openly, especially when Krauss and Rosa wouldn't do it.
This would leave Rudolf, whose kids are too low in the line to become head, not mentioning that Battler left the family and Ep 7 doesn't make clear if he came back or not. Not that there would be a point in Rudolf complaining if he'll be alone in doing it.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-09-25 at 18:19.
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Old 2012-09-25, 18:38   Link #30759
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I think more telling is that while Natsuhi is the big hero of Legend and Rosa of Turn, neither is excused of their flaws and indeed rather prominently displays them and, arguably, are undone by them (Natsuhi rushes out without telling anyone when she sees the letter, Rosa kicks Battler out even though she ought to know he can be trusted).

It's a balanced, but ultimately favorable opinion of them. Natsuhi and especially Rosa were extremely popular after Turn. This despite Rosa's considerable turn for the nasty that only got worse into Alliance... and in Alliance, we still get Maria basically loving her unconditionally and accepting her even though she's taken a number of actions that any fair person would say would give Maria every reason to despise her.

But then, even Maria gets a dark side by then... but overall, everybody's portrayal is largely kept at "has a darker part to them, but is overall kind and even heroic when they must be." This seems to fly in the face of the statements made by the narrator in the Requiem Tea Party. I'm not really sure whether Ryukishi made that contradiction intentional to lead us to doubt the narrator's words (and thus the EP7 TP scenario itself), or if he changed his mind or forgot somehow.
That seems to be the main point as addressed in arc 7 tea party. All of them could be murderers (except maybe Maria who'd have a harder time, but give her a few years...). I guess that's be arguable (strickly speaking) but it does seem to be the message Ryuukishi gives us.

If he tells us any of them could've been a murderer, in the end it means what Erika did with Natsuhi wasn't entirely wrong. We picked up Yasu or some George and built their why dunnit from scratch. Because in the end no matter what I don't think many have been seriously convinced either or anyone on the island has a really good excuse to murder everyone - we might see some glimpses of motives but the jump at "murders everyone" is really random. I'm not going to say these doesn't happen in non-fiction as it sadly does but that's sorta it. The umineko culprit as it stands is much closer to a school crazy shooter or a kamikaze terrorists with bombs (heh how fitting). So we have to build the missing "links" from almost out of nowhere. The mistake Ryuukishi seems to have wanted to point out is that her "why dunnit" as imagined by Erika made her a totally pathetic despicable culprit (or that such a thing would be inevitable should the truth be revealed... there's no noble reasons to massacre the whole family).

There's no more ways out of this then there is about Battler's letter to Yasu or about Lion's gender. You pick your preferences and make a coherent story around it. Mine has been that in prime nothing happened (either Ange's world is only another story, the follow up of arc 7 tea party it seems, and is no more real or fake then Lion, or something like a short-circuit due to the thunderstorm ended up making the explosives blow up - criminal negligence on the part of an already dead old man).
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Old 2012-09-25, 19:43   Link #30760
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Shannon is supposed to be at school when not working and Jessica and the boat captain would notice if she were to do differently. This would make difficult for Yasu to work as Kanon is Shannon's free days as Yasu is supposed to be in another island.
And there are many other reasons for which it would be imposible for Yasu to keep up the illusion of Kanon without accomplices, accomplices she could get only after Kinzo died.
I'm not saying Kanon doesn't need accomplices, just that Krauss and Natsuhi don't NEED to be accomplices, and it goes beyond them, anyway. We're told that Kanon started working in 1983, and neither Kawabata or the other Fukuin servants said anything to the contrary, as far as we know. This is why everything about Kanon is the sore point in Umineko's answer sheet - everything about him raises FAR more questions than it answers.

I'd also say that "Yasu had no need to do that" is ... like ... pretty much a summary of her entire character.
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This would leave Rudolf, whose kids are too low in the line to become head, not mentioning that Battler left the family and Ep 7 doesn't make clear if he came back or not. Not that there would be a point in Rudolf complaining if he'll be alone in doing it.
Agreed. Only Kratsuhi and Eva seem to even care about the position - everyone else just wants a fair share of money.
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