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Old 2012-11-10, 05:42   Link #31141
Drifloon
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Well, that second red is easy to get around; it's referring to the time when the bodies were discovered, so obviously the door was locked from the inside when the 'corpse' was found. That doesn't mean it was locked from the inside forever - heck, of course it doesn't, since the adults have to unlock the doors to find the corpses in the first place!

That first red is pretty odd, though. I'm guessing it just means that there's no device that can lock them without a key from the inside...Anyone have any idea what the Japanese says?
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Old 2012-11-10, 06:27   Link #31142
GuestSpeaker
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I could be wrong, but I thought when Beato did her definition of a closed room she said that red, but then made it clear the doors and windows could still be locked from the inside as a normal door or window could be. Sort of a

"you need a key to lock or unlock this door"
"oh, and of course you can just lock it too if you are inside"
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Old 2012-11-10, 10:30   Link #31143
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
No device exists which can lock them without a key.

Doesn't that contradict this red?


Also:
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal
All windows and doors leading to the outside were locked from the inside.
How'd she get out herself then?
Window is impossible and the door was locked from the inside.
All windows and doors leading to the outside were locked from the inside.

This red comes when they are discussing how George escaped from the guesthouse, in EP3. It has nothing to do with the chain of closed rooms.

EDIT: Forget this part, didn't read your context. Sorry!!!!


*オートロックのような、鍵を使用せず施錠できるような仕掛けは存在しない*。
No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.

My japanese is not perfect, but the expression 'such as an auto-lock' could be read as a restrictive expression, instead of as an 'example' expression.

In other words, you could read it as:

Auto-lock like mechanisms that can lock without the use of key, don't exist.

Instead of:

Any device that can lock without a key doesn't exist, for example, auto-lock.



Then all you have to do is say: auto-lock =/= turn lock



Someone with decent japanese knowledge can correct me
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Last edited by theacefrehley; 2012-11-10 at 10:49.
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Old 2012-11-10, 13:28   Link #31144
Kiltias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
All windows and doors leading to the outside were locked from the inside.

This red comes when they are discussing how George escaped from the guesthouse, in EP3. It has nothing to do with the chain of closed rooms.

EDIT: Forget this part, didn't read your context. Sorry!!!!


*オートロックのような、鍵を使用せず施錠できるような仕掛けは存在しない*。
No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.

My japanese is not perfect, but the expression 'such as an auto-lock' could be read as a restrictive expression, instead of as an 'example' expression.

In other words, you could read it as:

Auto-lock like mechanisms that can lock without the use of key, don't exist.

Instead of:

Any device that can lock without a key doesn't exist, for example, auto-lock.



Then all you have to do is say: auto-lock =/= turn lock



Someone with decent japanese knowledge can correct me
Allright then lets say it was a turn lock for arguments sake.
That means Yasu locked it from inside the room, as personally I've never seen a turn lock outside the room/outer door.
And if she locked it from the inside, she must have gotten out somehow and a Window is a no go seeing as it requires a massive device of sorts to leave from the second floor and managing to lock the window from the outisde to create an actual locked room.If the window would be open, the locked room wouldn't exist.
So in order to create the locked room scenario a locked/closed window is neccessary and as said, if the turn lock was inside the window is the sole way of exit unless there is a hidden passage.
And I am also sure, a open window would have been noticed,

And again, in order to lock the chapel, Yasu needs the chapel key and:
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!

Implies the chapel was indeed locked otherwise there wouldn't be a linked closed room cycle unless there is a way to lock the chapel from the inside.

Though then again we got in red that its impossible to unlock the chapel without the key for it and if a way to lock it from the inside would exist it would also mean its impossible to unlock it from the inside which seems more than just too weird.

Of course we can say:
Yasu locked it from the outside with her Master Key, however that doesn't work for the chapel seeing as the sole key for it was in room 5, and if the chapel wasn't locked, there are no linked closed rooms just:
Room 1: Locked
Room 2: Locked
Room 3: Locked
Room 4: locked
Room 5: Locked
Room 6: Not locked
See, that way, it can be in no way regarded as linked closed rooms which it is though in red that the closed rooms are linked.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-10 at 13:40.
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Old 2012-11-10, 13:41   Link #31145
Drifloon
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I'm not sure what your problem is...The chapel will remain locked from the inside for as long as Kanon stays in there. There's absolutely no reason why it should need to remain a closed room forever after the discoverers have left; why would they go back to the chapel to check?

The chapel is certainly locked during the time that the red is referring to.
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Old 2012-11-10, 14:06   Link #31146
Valkama
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If I remember the theory on that correctly it goes like this:

The Chapel was never locked until Yasu hid in it and then locked it from the inside with the turn lock. A turn lock has been used to lock and unlock doors in Umineko before so this shouldn't be out of the question. The adults never checked the chapel until after Yasu hid inside it so this is possible.

They first check the parlor where they find Shannon dead then they confiscate the keys and follow the closed room trail. Yasu then leaves the room and goes to the chapel disguising as Kanon on the way. Yasu then locks the chapel with the turn lock and fakes dead. The adults find the chapel locked and use the chapel key to unlock it. They then confiscate the Parlor key and the closed room chain is complete. No Keys are needed at all for this process.

The problem that seems to be happening is the Truth about impossible to lock without a key. But this truth is referring to tools like auto locks not turn locks. EP8's mystery uses turn locks so if you interpret it like it's only possible to lock them with a key then a lot more logic errors are form.
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Old 2012-11-10, 14:31   Link #31147
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Allright then lets say it was a turn lock for arguments sake.
That means Yasu locked it from inside the room, as personally I've never seen a turn lock outside the room/outer door.
And if she locked it from the inside, she must have gotten out somehow and a Window is a no go seeing as it requires a massive device of sorts to leave from the second floor and managing to lock the window from the outisde to create an actual locked room.If the window would be open, the locked room wouldn't exist.
So in order to create the locked room scenario a locked/closed window is neccessary and as said, if the turn lock was inside the window is the sole way of exit unless there is a hidden passage.
And I am also sure, a open window would have been noticed,

And again, in order to lock the chapel, Yasu needs the chapel key and:
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!

Implies the chapel was indeed locked otherwise there wouldn't be a linked closed room cycle unless there is a way to lock the chapel from the inside.

Though then again we got in red that its impossible to unlock the chapel without the key for it and if a way to lock it from the inside would exist it would also mean its impossible to unlock it from the inside which seems more than just too weird.

Of course we can say:
Yasu locked it from the outside with her Master Key, however that doesn't work for the chapel seeing as the sole key for it was in room 5, and if the chapel wasn't locked, there are no linked closed rooms just:
Room 1: Locked
Room 2: Locked
Room 3: Locked
Room 4: locked
Room 5: Locked
Room 6: Not locked
See, that way, it can be in no way regarded as linked closed rooms which it is though in red that the closed rooms are linked.

I don't get what is the problem.
The chapel only became a locked room when 'Kanon' entered it and locked himself.
By the time they find Shannon it was not.

And when they leave the parlour, it doesn't need to stay a closed room anymore, and Shannon can use 'Kanon's masterkey to leave, as well.

The trick is that the chain doesn't actually exist, and that's why Yasu needs to control the starting point, so she has time to move from one point to the other.

And what is this red about linked closed rooms?
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Old 2012-11-10, 16:14   Link #31148
Kiltias
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Are yu people playing stupid?

Quote:
There's absolutely no reason why it should need to remain a closed room forever after the discoverers have left; why would they go back to the chapel to check?
Nowhere did I say that.
Quote:
The chapel is certainly locked during the time that the red is referring to.
I never said anything different.


Quote:
I don't get what is the problem.
The chapel only became a locked room when 'Kanon' entered it and locked himself.
By the time they find Shannon it was not.
Said nothing different.

I'm questioning HOW Yasu locked the rooms 2-5 and got out as a turn lock means the rooms are locked from the inside resulting in locking herself in, the only way out being the window but that would destroy the concept of a locked room and the linked closed room, as Yasu can hardly exit through the 2nd Floor and manage to close/lock the window to the point that the discoverers don't notice it when they arrive later.



Regarding the chapel:
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key


It's impossible to unlock it by other means.
For the red to be true and having a turn lock it would mean:
It's impossible to unlock it by anything except the key.
It is possible to lock it with the turn lock however its impossible to unlock it with it.

Which is why I question that:
Yasu locked herself in the chapel with a turn lock as it would mean its a turn lock that only locksbut doesn't unlock which is just stupid.

Quote:
And what is this red about linked closed rooms?
Merely comfirming that they were all actually locked in combination with doubting the turn lock in the chapel.
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Old 2012-11-10, 16:30   Link #31149
Valkama
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The other room could have been locked via master key. If not she could have just went backwards with the keys through the closed rooms although that's a bit silly.

Actually that red statement that you bring up I did notice. It's a bit of a logic error if you take it at face value as it was shown the Chapel can but unlocked via a turn lock and battler even tries that theory so why would he make a theory that goes against an already stated red truth if that is what the Red was intended to mean? What Ryukishi probably meant was can't be unlocked from the outside.
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Old 2012-11-10, 16:54   Link #31150
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Are yu people playing stupid?



Nowhere did I say that.


I never said anything different.




Said nothing different.

I'm questioning HOW Yasu locked the rooms 2-5 and got out as a turn lock means the rooms are locked from the inside resulting in locking herself in, the only way out being the window but that would destroy the concept of a locked room and the linked closed room, as Yasu can hardly exit through the 2nd Floor and manage to close/lock the window to the point that the discoverers don't notice it when they arrive later.



Regarding the chapel:
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key


It's impossible to unlock it by other means.
For the red to be true and having a turn lock it would mean:
It's impossible to unlock it by anything except the key.
It is possible to lock it with the turn lock however its impossible to unlock it with it.

Which is why I question that:
Yasu locked herself in the chapel with a turn lock as it would mean its a turn lock that only locksbut doesn't unlock which is just stupid.


Merely comfirming that they were all actually locked in combination with doubting the turn lock in the chapel.
Duh
Yasu has 2 masterkeys (Kanon's and Shannon's)
She can lock rooms 2-5 from outside with the masterkeys.

She doesn't even need turn-lock here, only in the chapel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
The other room could have been locked via master key. If not she could have just went backwards with the keys through the closed rooms although that's a bit silly.

Actually that red statement that you bring up I did notice. It's a bit of a logic error if you take it at face value as it was shown the Chapel can but unlocked via a turn lock and battler even tries that theory so why would he make a theory that goes against an already stated red truth if that is what the Red was intended to mean? What Ryukishi probably meant was can't be unlocked from the outside.
Regarding that red, I agree, it's problematic if you take it isolatedly
We can even use the context, though


「それではもう一度再開するぞ? 
" Then, will you restart it once more?
6人は確かに扉から入った。
6 people certainly entered through the door.
妾が魔法で鍵を開けた。
I opened the lock with magic.
……この魔法を、密室をどうかわす?!」
...... How will you dodge this magic, the secret room?!"
「……か、鍵だ! 
" ......It's, it's the key!
源次さんたちは鍵が一つしかないと言っているが、そんなのは証明不能だ! 
Genji-san and the others are saying there's only one key but, that is impossible to prove!
犯人はこっそり合鍵を作っていた…!」
The criminal secretly created a duplicate key...!"
「くっくくくくくく! 
" Kuukukukukukuku!
*礼拝堂の鍵は一本しか存在しない!*」
*Only one key of the sanctuary does exist!*"
「っぐ……。
" Hgu.......
じゃ、じゃあこうだ。
Then, then how about this.
犯人は正規の鍵以外のものを使って開けたんだ! 
The criminal opened it using something different from a regular key!
何かはわからないが、例えば針金とか! 
I don't know what is it but, it could be a wire for example!
キーピックの道具だ!!」
Or a key pick tool!!"
「何だ何だ、その甘い指し手はァ。
" What, what, that's a naive move.
*礼拝堂の施錠は礼拝堂の鍵以外では開錠不可能!!* 
* Unlocking the lock of the sanctuary is possible only with the key of the sanctuary!!*


They are talking about entering the chapel, so we could say the red refers to outside unlocking.
But, yeah. It's a derp by Ryuukishi.

And in EP4, Battler even tries a theory that uses turn-lock.

「#扉は犠牲者たちが内側から閉めたんだ。@/ (the victims shut the door from inside)
#6人の中に犯人がいて、5人を殺し、死んだふりをしていた!!#」\ (the criminal was among the 6, and pretended to be dead)
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Last edited by theacefrehley; 2012-11-10 at 17:04.
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Old 2012-11-10, 17:31   Link #31151
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Duh
Yasu has 2 masterkeys (Kanon's and Shannon's)
She can lock rooms 2-5 from outside with the masterkeys.

She doesn't even need turn-lock here, only in the chapel.
The order of the corpses being discovered was:

Shannon (Rudolf broke window to get in)
Kumasawa (they reached her through the key Shannon had)
Gohda (they reached him through the key Kumasawa had)
Genji (they reached him through the key Gohda had)
Kinzo (they reached him through the key Genji had)
Kanon (they reached him through the key Shannon had)


What if Yasu:
Closed the chapel door with the key but left open one window then
Left the key to Kinzo, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Genji, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Gohda, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Kumasawa, closed the door of the room he was in then
keep the key with herself, closed the room she was in with the other key (the one she planned to leave with Kanon) and hid said key... let's say under the couch, then killed herself.

Once Rudolf and Co who got in from the window they've broken have left the room she will retrieve the key she had hidden, leave from said window and reach the chapel (as the glass of the window is now broken she can even close the window behind her), will enter in the chapel through a window, close it and kill Kanon.

Like this she doesn't even need to use a masterkey nor to use a lock to close the door of the chapel.
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Old 2012-11-10, 19:11   Link #31152
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The order of the corpses being discovered was:

Shannon (Rudolf broke window to get in)
Kumasawa (they reached her through the key Shannon had)
Gohda (they reached him through the key Kumasawa had)
Genji (they reached him through the key Gohda had)
Kinzo (they reached him through the key Genji had)
Kanon (they reached him through the key Shannon had)


What if Yasu:
Closed the chapel door with the key but left open one window then
Left the key to Kinzo, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Genji, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Gohda, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Kumasawa, closed the door of the room he was in then
keep the key with herself, closed the room she was in with the other key (the one she planned to leave with Kanon) and hid said key... let's say under the couch, then killed herself.

Once Rudolf and Co who got in from the window they've broken have left the room she will retrieve the key she had hidden, leave from said window and reach the chapel (as the glass of the window is now broken she can even close the window behind her), will enter in the chapel through a window, close it and kill Kanon.

Like this she doesn't even need to use a masterkey nor to use a lock to close the door of the chapel.

Yeah, that works better
But Yasu has a master key in hand, she could use it, too
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Old 2012-11-10, 19:31   Link #31153
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Yeah, that works better
But Yasu has a master key in hand, she could use it, too
I'm not sure the master key works for the chapel too... actually I seem to remember it doesn't.
And leaving the room through the window would make hard for the adults inside the house to notice her as well possible to use a red that would say that the door were all closed with the respective keys... not that those things will happen because... well, it's Ryukishi who controls the story so, if he doesn't want Battler to ask this, Battler won't ask...
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Old 2012-11-10, 19:45   Link #31154
Ryuudou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Duh
「それではもう一度再開するぞ? 
" Then, will you restart it once more?
6人は確かに扉から入った。
6 people certainly entered through the door.
妾が魔法で鍵を開けた。
I opened the lock with magic.
……この魔法を、密室をどうかわす?!」
...... How will you dodge this magic, the secret room?!"
「……か、鍵だ! 
" ......It's, it's the key!
源次さんたちは鍵が一つしかないと言っているが、そんなのは証明不能だ! 
Genji-san and the others are saying there's only one key but, that is impossible to prove!
犯人はこっそり合鍵を作っていた…!」
The criminal secretly created a duplicate key...!"
「くっくくくくくく! 
" Kuukukukukukuku!
*礼拝堂の鍵は一本しか存在しない!*」
*Only one key of the sanctuary does exist!*"
「っぐ……。
" Hgu.......
じゃ、じゃあこうだ。
Then, then how about this.
犯人は正規の鍵以外のものを使って開けたんだ! 
The criminal opened it using something different from a regular key!
何かはわからないが、例えば針金とか! 
I don't know what is it but, it could be a wire for example!
キーピックの道具だ!!」
Or a key pick tool!!"
「何だ何だ、その甘い指し手はァ。
" What, what, that's a naive move.
*礼拝堂の施錠は礼拝堂の鍵以外では開錠不可能!!* 
* Unlocking the lock of the sanctuary is possible only with the key of the sanctuary!!*
Curious where do you pull the original Japanese lines + translations from like that?
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Old 2012-11-10, 21:15   Link #31155
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'm not sure the master key works for the chapel too... actually I seem to remember it doesn't.
And leaving the room through the window would make hard for the adults inside the house to notice her as well possible to use a red that would say that the door were all closed with the respective keys... not that those things will happen because... well, it's Ryukishi who controls the story so, if he doesn't want Battler to ask this, Battler won't ask...
It doesn't
I'm talking about the mansion rooms


Quote:
Curious where do you pull the original Japanese lines + translations from like that?
Before Witch Hunt came around, I translated EP1 and EP2, so I have the scripts.

You can also extract the original text file from the game (or from witch hunt files, that comes with translation).
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Old 2012-11-11, 00:00   Link #31156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.

My japanese is not perfect, but the expression 'such as an auto-lock' could be read as a restrictive expression, instead of as an 'example' expression.

In other words, you could read it as:

Auto-lock like mechanisms that can lock without the use of key, don't exist.

Instead of:

Any device that can lock without a key doesn't exist, for example, auto-lock.



Then all you have to do is say: auto-lock =/= turn lock



Someone with decent japanese knowledge can correct me
I am 95% certain you are correct.

Here's the whole line in English:
  • Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal.
  • No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.
And in Japanese:
  • ちなみに、6つの部屋の扉や窓はいずれも普通。オートロックのような鍵を使用せず施錠できるような仕掛けは 存在しない。
By the way, the variation in the bullet structure isn't just me being lazy or inconsistent. The English site always places separate sentences under separate bullets, but the Japanese site sometimes puts sentences in the same bullet.

I'm quite certain the second sentence refers to the first. In other words, the second sentence about "no autolocks" was an explanation of what she meant by "normal" in the first sentence. So I think the clause could easily be taken as a restrictive clause and, strictly speaking, could mean that "no autolock-like device exists" rather than "no device exists at all". I don't think it matters, though, unless you want to argue that there could be some non-autolock device that could lock the rooms... which would also seem to be at odds with Knox's 4th/8th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
They are talking about entering the chapel, so we could say the red refers to outside unlocking.
Yeah, it's perfectly fine if you don't take it as a general statement. In other words: It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key (in the scenario being currently discussed). I'd go as far as to say all red statements are context-based. Otherwise we wouldn't generally need statements like: "This applies to all games."

Red is fluid.
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Old 2012-11-11, 00:13   Link #31157
chronotrig
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Well, even though it's a fantasy scene, when we see George, Shannon, and Gohda leaving the chapel near the end of EP2, they have a lot of trouble getting the door unlocked from the inside (because the chapel is old).

Since it's a magical scene, maybe it didn't happen that way at all (the only reason they tried the door was because they were in too much of a hurry to use the window, and they were only in a hurry because magical butterflies appeared).

Also, since they had to force the lock on the inside, it's possible that they left some sort of trace in doing so, cracking some rust or whatever. Since that trace didn't exist during the FT, maybe we can still safely say that nothing could have unlocked the chapel from inside or out when that red was made.

So it's definitely possible that, at least during most of EP2, it was impossible to unlock the chapel's door from the inside.


Still, I think the main reason for the red is to show that no one actually did X, not whether X was physically possible or not. After all, it would probably be physically possible to pick the lock of some of the doors.
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Old 2012-11-11, 07:45   Link #31158
GuestSpeaker
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Quote:
And leaving the room through the window would make hard for the adults inside the house to notice her as well possible to use a red that would say that the door were all closed
I don't think she did use the windows, If I remember correctly some suspicious adult suspiciously closed the shutters to keep out the rain or the culprit or something (and also ensure that no-one could later look inside the parlour and check on old Shannon)

As for the quote about picking the lock, I am sure I read either Beato or Ryu state somewhere that of course there are ways to lock a door from the outside, but that they are not in play in this game.
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Old 2012-11-11, 08:47   Link #31159
theacefrehley
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The order of the corpses being discovered was:

Shannon (Rudolf broke window to get in)
Kumasawa (they reached her through the key Shannon had)
Gohda (they reached him through the key Kumasawa had)
Genji (they reached him through the key Gohda had)
Kinzo (they reached him through the key Genji had)
Kanon (they reached him through the key Shannon had)


What if Yasu:
Closed the chapel door with the key but left open one window then
Left the key to Kinzo, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Genji, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Gohda, closed the door of the room he was in then
Left the key to Kumasawa, closed the door of the room he was in then
keep the key with herself, closed the room she was in with the other key (the one she planned to leave with Kanon) and hid said key... let's say under the couch, then killed herself.

Once Rudolf and Co who got in from the window they've broken have left the room she will retrieve the key she had hidden, leave from said window and reach the chapel (as the glass of the window is now broken she can even close the window behind her), will enter in the chapel through a window, close it and kill Kanon.

Like this she doesn't even need to use a masterkey nor to use a lock to close the door of the chapel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I don't think she did use the windows, If I remember correctly some suspicious adult suspiciously closed the shutters to keep out the rain or the culprit or something (and also ensure that no-one could later look inside the parlour and check on old Shannon)

As for the quote about picking the lock, I am sure I read either Beato or Ryu state somewhere that of course there are ways to lock a door from the outside, but that they are not in play in this game.
You can get around that with Yasu using Kanon's masterkey and leaving through the front door (or the individual key of the room, that was hidden, and supposed to be found by later)
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Old 2012-11-11, 16:21   Link #31160
Wegenbarth
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Sorry if I blend in, but something bothers me.
It's regarding the 5th ep.
Spoiler:


The whole battle was the dead cousins in the guest-house,
and the part about Genji's death was somehow only mentioned and debated for a short moment.

Does this mean that Rosa (inb4 flame) could as well have killed Genji, after she left and before Eva sealed theservant room off?

Or was Genji also NOT DEAD when he got discovered in the morning after the seal was broken?
Since that part wasn't mentioned at all anymore when Battler pwned Erika with his golden truth...
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