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Old 2009-11-12, 11:23   Link #3101
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
Yes, he locked the door from the inside and just died with a stake stuck in his chest...
Genji as the culprit doesn't explain Shannon's cause of death at all. She was found with a gaping wound in her head that was almost certainly caused by a gunshot, and the stake found by her body wasn't buried in the wound. If Genji was the culprit:
  • Why didn't Genji didn't shoot the other two victims?
  • How was Genji able to get inside the room to place Shannon's stake, if Gohda was still able to lock him out?
  • Why did Genji properly stake the other two victims, but not Shannon? Episode 4 showed that the staker is willing to put stakes in massive head trauma.
  • How did Genji manage the stakings without getting completely covered in blood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
BTW, does anyone have a translated version of the Extra TIPS "ある料理人の雑記" - the diary or memo of Gohda?

I could not read Japanese but it seems to suggest that Genji knew how to draw the magical circles.
If I remember correctly, it was said in Episode 1 that Shannon was a live-in worker, which I assume means she has her own room in the mansion somewhere. Even if she were off-duty the night the magic circle appeared, unless she was on vacation, presumably she'd still be on the island at night. Is it possible that at the time he wrote the notebook, Gohda didn't know that?

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-11-12 at 11:49.
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Old 2009-11-12, 11:49   Link #3102
ijriims
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Speculated dialogue according to my hypothesis (Kyrie=Beatrice):

EP1 (4th Oct, midnight):

Genji: Lady Kyrie, what do you plan to do now?

Kyrie: You are supposed to stay in the guest house, is it okay for you?

Genji: Kanon is staying there now, there is no problem.

Kyrie: Initially I planned to kill six adults in this night. According to the epigraph, 6 people have to be killed. I have already let Maria to say that this meething is their last chance to solve the epigraph. But they just focus on squeezing money from Krauss. Natsuhi, Eva and Hideyoshi have already retreated to their rooms. We had to choose six among the people in this mansion.

Genji: Is it okay to select the people from the guest house?

Kyrie: No... It would be too unsafe. Guest house is too small and there is a high risk we would be discovered by the children. I want to leave the children to the last moment. And I need Nanjo to verify my "death". Kumasawa is so lucky to stay in the guest house.

Genji: Now the people in the mansion are master Krauss, mistress Natsuhi, Lady Eva Mister Rudolf, Lady Rosa, and Gohda . If Lady Krass wanted to fake death in the 1st night, which 5 people would you like to choose?

Kyrie: Rosa, Gohda, Rudolf and Krauss are my choice. I do not want to kill Eva couples or that would leave no capable people to solve the epigraph. Natsuhi is not able to solve and will not try to solve it at all. Eva and Rosa has a good chance to solve the epigraph though. But if I just kill Hideyoshi then Eva probably would not be able to concentrate on the epigraph at all. Killing both will leave just me and that is meaningless. And I want to kill Rosa on the first twilight whatsoever. So Natsuhi will be my last choice. The master key can open the Natsuhi's door, can't it?

Genji: Yes.

Kyrie: Good. Then first we have to deal with the three people in the dining room, and then Gohda, and then Natsuhi. Drop some sleeping pills into the coffee and then let them drink.

Genji: Yes, my Lady.

Kyrie: Can you deal with Gohda alone?

Genji: Yes, he will not suspect me.

...After dosing them and deal with Godha.

Kyrie: Now the last one is Natsuhi. She had pills before sleep right?

Genji: Mistress Natsuhi has this habit.

Kyrie: Please open the door for me.

(Genji opened the door.)

Kyrie: Wait, something is behind the door. (Taking the amulet on the door knob). Isn't this Maria's amulet? (Close the door)

Genji: It seems that Milady Jessica gave it to Mistress Natsuhi.

Kyrie: Well, it fits her character. Caring for her parents even though acting the opposite. But this causes problem for me. Jessica knew that she gave the amulet to her mother and Maria believed the power in this amulet..... if I kill Natsuhi now, then it will destory Maria's belief in magic and Beatrice.

Genji: Lady Kyrie, you do care for Maria a lot.

Kyrie: But I must kill her in the end. To free her from this world and bring her to Golden Land. This is what I promised her.

Genji: You can choose me to be the sacrifice at the first twilight.

Kyrie: But I need you to execute the rest after I have "died"........ (some sound of footstep coming in).... who's it?

(They hid)

Genji: It is Shannon. Why is she here? She is supposed to be in the guest house.

Kyrie: I don't know. But it seems that the fate has chosen her to be a sacrifice at the first twilight. Even though I said to Kanon that I would try not to choose her.

(Kyrie and Genji appeared in front of Shannon)

Shannon: Lady Kyrie and Genji-san. Why are you here?... Oh... I have forgotten you are executing the epigraph (carried away by George's proposal)

Kyrie: Shannon, I need you to be sacrifice at the first twilight. Sorry about that.

Shannon: What? But...? Georg................I understand. It is probably fate urging me to come to the mansion. I will do what you want. Lady Kyrie. As Master Kinzo has told us to follow you.

Kyrie: Sorry. I have promised Kanon that I will not choose you unless I have no other choices.

Shannon: It's okay. I and Kanon are both orphans from the beginning. If not for Master Kinzo, we could not have lived to today at all. I should be grateful about it actaully.

Kyrie: Maybe I should use Kanon instead. I see that you are wearing a ring right now. Did George propose to you?

Shannon: ..............Yes. George-sama did propose to me. And I am so happy about it. I would want to live, but I don't want Kanon to die for me. If fate has urged me to come here, then let me bear it. And in fact, if not for Lady Kyrie you, I could never summoned up the courage to date with George-sama. I am very grateful.

Kyrie: I see...........Genji. Could you use some of the paint to mark something on the room of Natsuhi's room. I want her to know that she was initially chosen as a sacrifice actually.

Genji: As you wish, Lady Kyrie.

Kyrie: Shannon, so......

Tears ran down from Shannon's eyes.

---------------so far EP1 the first twilight, let's see if I could write on the rest as well--------

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-13 at 12:19.
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Old 2009-11-12, 11:50   Link #3103
ameskitty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
If I remember correctly, it was said in Episode 1 that Shannon was a live-in worker, which I assume means she has her own room in the mansion somewhere. Even if she were off-duty the night the magic circle appeared, unless she was on vacation, presumably she'd still be on the island at night. Is it possible that at the time he wrote the notebook, Gohda didn't know that?
Yup, there's a line where Battler says "When I asked, I heard she was a live-in worker."

I got the feeling that Genji and Kanon are also live-ins (especially since I think Kanon lives with his sister), but it's interesting that it was explicitly pointed out for Shannon. The anime also showed her in her room in the mansion looking at George's picture, meaning that it's a detail that wasn't entirely cut, either.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:06   Link #3104
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Concerning 'Kyrie is the mastermind' theories.. a friend and I came up with "Kyrie = Asumu", though it would be quiet difficult and you need a few conditions, such as they never seen in front of Rudolf together. The line of thought started with "Kyrie and Asumu had the same expectation date" (as if she couldn't decide which persona should keep the child lool /me runs)
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:15   Link #3105
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Jirmis why have you use quotation marks for Kyrie when she says "died"? I hardly see how she could have faked her death.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:20   Link #3106
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auria View Post
Concerning 'Kyrie is the mastermind' theories.. a friend and I came up with "Kyrie = Asumu", though it would be quiet difficult and you need a few conditions, such as they never seen in front of Rudolf together. The line of thought started with "Kyrie and Asumu had the same expectation date" (as if she couldn't decide which persona should keep the child lool /me runs)
That would be awkward to explain.

Rudolf: Kyrie is your mother who is Asumu
Battler: ffffff *flips a board into oblivion*

But in all seriousness I doubt it. Kyrie is suppose to bve a family friend as well and she probably knew Asumu before the entire mess with pregnancies and what not occurred.

If anything I think Asumu might have been working for Rudolf's company (since she isn't all that rich according to Battler) before anything occurred. We know for sure Kyrie was working with him as a business partner and a consultant (since she usually gave him advise before he went to meetings, IIRC)
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:24   Link #3107
ijriims
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After reading the additional tips, it suggested Beatrice was often on Rokkenjima and she was that playful all the time.

The tricks played on Kanon, Gohda seemed to be real. But all could have been done by Genji.

Suggesting Shannon as Beatrice, I admit (Jessica is still far-fetched). (Or Kinzo had raised another Beatrice again?)

But if Beatrice knew about the alternative port, then she could have arrived at Rokkenjima without Genji, Gohda and Kanon's doing.

Not impossible to put into my own hypothesis though. But it does supported Workworkwork's hypothesis:" Beatrice as a real person living on Rokkenjima and knew real magic" Following this logic, this additional Beatrice should have died before 4th Oct 1986 again.

Let me read other Extra TIPS as well. ^^
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:26   Link #3108
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Jirmis why have you use quotation marks for Kyrie when she says "died"? I hardly see how she could have faked her death.
Just like I hardly see how Shannon could fake her death in EP1. I could not understand why if Shannon could fake it, Kyrie could not.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:33   Link #3109
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Just like I hardly see how Shannon could fake her death in EP1. I could not understand why if Shannon could fake it, Kyrie could not.
Battler saw Kyrie's corpse up close. No corpses other than those of introduced people have appeared, and the identities of unidentified corpses are guaranteed. So Kyrie is absolutely dead. On the other hand, Battler didn't see Shannon's body at all, so the possibility of a misdiagnosis or a conspiracy exists.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:40   Link #3110
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As LyricalAura said, with Shannon you can still have some sort of justification, since she was in the shadow, she wasn't seen directly by Battler and the half portion of her face that was supposedly smashed can't be clearly seen (both in manga and the anime).

I admit it still strange for such a thing to be true, but at least in this case we have some possible leeway. In the case of Kyrie 'though her face was totally smashed and you can have a perfectly clear sight of it.

Body doubles are forbidden. So the only thing that is possible is for someone to fake her own death.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:45   Link #3111
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ijrims: Only Kanon and Hideyoshi saw Shannon's corpse in episode 1. Everyone but Maria saw Kyrie.

And no matter how many times I look over that script, it reminds of the underpants gnomes.

the_rogue: As for why Shannon was absent, perhaps she was helping Krauss and Natsuhi.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:50   Link #3112
Geekodot
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As LyricalAura said, with Shannon you can still have some sort of justification, since she was in the shadow, she wasn't seen directly by Battler and the half portion of her face that was supposedly smashed can't be clearly seen (both in manga and the anime).

I admit it still strange for such a thing to be true, but at least in this case we have some possible leeway. In the case of Kyrie 'though her face was totally smashed and you can have a perfectly clear sight of it.

Body doubles are forbidden. So the only thing that is possible is for someone to fake her own death.
But that requires Hideyoshi and Kanon to be in on it too and while I can easily accept Kanon as an accomplice, having Hideyoshi in the "murderer" faction would just be way too strange... Epecially when he dies at the next twilight.
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Old 2009-11-12, 12:58   Link #3113
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It depends on how closely they have checked Shannon. If what they have seen is exactly what we can see in the manga and the anime, honestly... I can't say that from such images we can be 100% sure that Shannon has half face smashed. It would be different if we had a direct sight of the smashed part.
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Old 2009-11-12, 13:06   Link #3114
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It depends on how closely they have checked Shannon. If what they have seen is exactly what we can see in the manga and the anime, honestly... I can't say that from such images we can be 100% sure that Shannon has half face smashed. It would be different if we had a direct sight of the smashed part.
Oh, so "they saw it wrong"... then did everyone else just "see it wrong" too and really, everyone was faking their death and just walking about afterwards? When it comes to something like this, Battlers PoV is as believable as everyones elses because he could've also "seen it wrong". If you reject that, then you destroy almost all explanations for the "Beatrice" in the 4th arc too, unless you claim that Battler's PoV is not objective at all.
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Old 2009-11-12, 13:11   Link #3115
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As it was said several times, the only persons who saw Shannon are Hideyoshi and Kanon, not everyone.
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Old 2009-11-12, 13:15   Link #3116
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And we don't now how closely Hideyoshi looked he seemed really grossed out and shocked. There is a high chance tat after looking at the otehrs he didn't look closely at her. Only Kanon stared down at her for a long time without showing any emotions means that if she faked her death he noticed that. If he is on the "murder fraction" is another story.
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Old 2009-11-12, 13:20   Link #3117
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rather than Hideyoshi, it is Kanon the one that bothers me in case he knows that Shannon is faking her death.

That's because in the kitchen scene he was really upset about Shannon being chosen as a sacrifice. I don't think he knew Battler was eavesdropping the conversation, so there was no need for him to make that act, unless he was trying to fool Kumasawa and Genji, but why? Those two probably knows a lot about what's really happening.

Another option is that they were talking about something in a code language they know. maybe "sacrifice" has another meaning for them.
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Old 2009-11-12, 13:24   Link #3118
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rather than Hideyoshi, it is Kanon the one that bothers me in case he knows that Shannon is faking her death.

That's because in the kitchen scene he was really upset about Shannon being chosen as a sacrifice. I don't think he knew Battler was eavesdropping the conversation, so there was no need for him to make that act, unless he was trying to fool Kumasawa and Genji, but why? Those two probably knows a lot about what's really happening.

Another option is that they were talking about something in a code language they know. maybe "sacrifice" has another meaning for them.
I thought about this problem as well and then I noticed...I think Kanon never said sacrifice but that Shannon was choosen by Beatrice and if we assume in this scenario that Shannon is the culprit (and therefore Beatrice) what he says could be metaphorically. Choosen by Beatrice means in this case beoming Beatrice becoming the culprit (he is upset about her being the culprit and blames "Beatrice" who isn't Shannon in his opinion).

Just my two cents

Edit: Also I thin k if this scenario is true than Shannon didn't kill Hideyoshi or Eva but it was the remaining servants to protect Shannon. If hideyoshi looked at Shannon he might be too shocked to notice her fake death in the first moment but may later realize it. Therefore he is killed by Kanon and co. to protect Shannon
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Old 2009-11-12, 13:27   Link #3119
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But if Hideyoshi saw something wrong, the same chance exists for every other character including Battler to see something wrong. There is nothing wrong with my claim that they were all so grossed out that they all saw it wrong and just assumed everyone to be dead when they all were just faking...

And that argument works for all the murders where the death hasn't been declared in red...

Im just trying to point to how a wrong observation sounds really far fetched... at least to me.
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Old 2009-11-12, 13:30   Link #3120
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No it doesn't work...Battler looked at them in detail and described us some nice details means that there is no room for fakes.
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