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Old 2012-11-23, 09:46   Link #31221
Drifloon
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Okay guys, I've finally found the truth behind the whole series. Prepare yourselves, I have irrefutable evidence.

You see, at the end of the 6th game, we are told that even if Erika joins the group, there are only 17 people. Well, I have a perfect solution to this, that doesn't involve Shkanontrice at all. Behold.



You see, the answer was in the second game all along! This screen proves beyond any doubt that Erika is a split personality of Rosa. There's plenty of evidence for this in EP2; Battler repeatedly mentions how Rosa is acting differently than usual, clearly pointing to her having switched to her Erika personality as demonstrated so clearly by the above screenshot. So even if Erika joins the group, since she is just a split personality of Rosa, there are still only 17 people. There you go, everyone, you don't have to worry about Umineko's solution any more.
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Old 2012-11-23, 10:53   Link #31222
Meltyred
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Just because she used a similar phrase doesn't mean they are the same...
(unless that's a joke, then by which I will laugh)
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Old 2012-11-23, 12:01   Link #31223
Kiltias
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Meh.I'm not too fond of KNM but I gotta admit Rosa plays a large role in EP2.

You just need some knowledge about guns.


45 caliber long colt.
Handgun bullets that also work with the Winchester 1894.
Whether or nots is coincidence, I really don't know but, it's also capable to fire 410 shells.
Spoiler for Shells:

410 bore.

00 Buckshots.

I don't know if Ryukishi planned this though or as said, it just being a coincidence.

More importantly:
the existance of the 45 caliber long colt shows Kinzo might own some handguns.
Those cartridges are meant for revolvers.
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Old 2012-11-23, 12:58   Link #31224
Valkama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
You see, the answer was in the second game all along! This screen proves beyond any doubt that Erika is a split personality of Rosa. There's plenty of evidence for this in EP2; Battler repeatedly mentions how Rosa is acting differently than usual, clearly pointing to her having switched to her Erika personality as demonstrated so clearly by the above screenshot. So even if Erika joins the group, since she is just a split personality of Rosa, there are still only 17 people. There you go, everyone, you don't have to worry about Umineko's solution any more.
But if that's the case then Rosa is the Detective. Meaning the Chapel door was in fact locked meaning that the only way the people in the Chapel could die was through small bombs in their food meaning that Gohda is the culprit and controls an army of goats.

EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW!
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Old 2012-11-23, 12:59   Link #31225
Drifloon
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I'm kind of shocked that someone (possibly two people?) actually took me seriously. What is this place coming to?
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Old 2012-11-23, 14:38   Link #31226
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I'm kind of shocked that someone (possibly two people?) actually took me seriously. What is this place coming to?
Nah just one.And its not me.
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Old 2012-11-23, 15:59   Link #31227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Okay guys, I've finally found the truth behind the whole series. Prepare yourselves, I have irrefutable evidence.

You see, at the end of the 6th game, we are told that even if Erika joins the group, there are only 17 people. Well, I have a perfect solution to this, that doesn't involve Shkanontrice at all. Behold.



There you go, everyone, you don't have to worry about Umineko's solution any more.
This made my day.
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Old 2012-11-23, 16:02   Link #31228
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
I see.


Well I dunno if its important but just to go sure, originally there were not 7 but 8 sins, the 8th being Sorrow or Despair.
Ah, which list are you referencing? I know that Sloth certainly was split up into several different things, as you say ... ... ... ... ... y'know, I am SURE we could make that piece of information somehow fit with Rosa's husbands absence.

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
You see, isn't it that Battler is the one that never got staked yet still has a sin?
I just find it curious that despite his sin causing all this, he never gets staked by the stakes representing a sin.
Well, we've never seen Battler die mid-game, so he wouldn't be staked. Like, ACTUALLY die. If I were to try following the pattern, I'd probs stake with ... Asmodeus, or maaybe Belphegor, I guess.
Rosa and Maria are also never staked. Maria, probably because she's Beato's friend/apprentice or whatevs, but Rosa's really the odd adult out. Rosa's odd in general - out of all the humans, she spends by FAR the most time being dead except for Kinzo himself. I always thought Beato must have particularly disliked her, or something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
I think its because everytime he got staked it was with Beelzebub (Gluttony).

Personally I think Yasu did intend to stake everyone with a pattern.
Imma go by Illusions now as well.
EP 1:
Asmodeus - Eva
Beelzebub - Hideyoshi
Mammon - Kinzo
Satan - Kanon
Lucifer - Genji
Belphegor - Nanjo
Leviathan - Kumasawa

EP 2:
Asmodeus - Jessica
Satan - Kanon
Mammon - Shannon
Beelzebub - Gohda
Lucifer - George
Belphegor - Nanjo
Leviathan - Kumasawa

Compare this to EP 1.

EP 3:
Asmodeus - Rudolf
Beelzebub - Hideyoshi
Mammon - Kyrie
Lucifer - Krauss
Satan - Natsuhi
I agree, I think he originally wanted to make a clear pattern (prooobably as a red herring, but a pattern nonetheless). It's too bad he didn't stick it out.

Also, Hideyoshi was killed by Lucifer in EP5, for whatever reason. What I mean is, we can definitely call, say, Rudolf rather lustful, but Hideyoshi doesn't really warrant "Gluttony" at all. At best, you might say it's 'cause he's all chubby and owns a restaurant chain, but man that kinda logic would be really reaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
But if that's the case then Rosa is the Detective. Meaning the Chapel door was in fact locked meaning that the only way the people in the Chapel could die was through small bombs in their food meaning that Gohda is the culprit and controls an army of goats.

EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE NOW!
Hey, SMALL BOMBS™ was never denied in reeeed! Just because Will's solution was right doesn't mean Battler's small bombs were wrong!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I'm kind of shocked that someone (possibly two people?) actually took me seriously. What is this place coming to?
Well, actually, I remember quite a bit of (presumably) serious discussion awhile ago about the theory that Erika was just a "role" that could be inhabited by any of the regular humans, or a group of them. It was called Erika!Ball, I think. I didn't pay much attention to those discussions, so I couldn't tell you how it ended.
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Old 2012-11-23, 16:47   Link #31229
AuraTwilight
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Yea, it was once speculated that Erika was either a manifestation of Yasu's disillusionment, a manifestation of the negative emotions of all the women on Rokkenjima, or otherwise had no physical piece and had to borrow one of the other characters, making "Erika" into a title. It was a pretty elegant theory, at the time.
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Old 2012-11-23, 17:03   Link #31230
Valkama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, we've never seen Battler die mid-game, so he wouldn't be staked. Like, ACTUALLY die. If I were to try following the pattern, I'd probs stake with ... Asmodeus, or maaybe Belphegor, I guess.
Rosa and Maria are also never staked. Maria, probably because she's Beato's friend/apprentice or whatevs, but Rosa's really the odd adult out. Rosa's odd in general - out of all the humans, she spends by FAR the most time being dead except for Kinzo himself. I always thought Beato must have particularly disliked her, or something.
Funnily enough in EP3 Beatrice said she doesn't hate Rosa which is really amusing considering Rosa's deaths:

Ep1: First Twilight
EP2: Ninth Twilight
EP3: Second Twilight
EP4: First Twilight
EP5: First Twilight
EP6: First Twilight
EP7: (If you count the 6 who died in the beginning) First Twilight
EP8: First Twilight

I'm thinking there was a grudge for killing her mom. It's funny how the only times she doesn't immediately die is when other people are more of a priority to kill (The servants) or she's an accomplice. And when she is an accomplice she ends up betraying her in the end.
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Old 2012-11-23, 18:09   Link #31231
AuraTwilight
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If Beatrice has any sort of grudge, it's probably for causing Maria pain. Beatrice never knew her mother and would probably empathize with the fact that Rosa was trying to save her.
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Old 2012-11-23, 19:16   Link #31232
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Meh.I'm not too fond of KNM but I gotta admit Rosa plays a large role in EP2.

You just need some knowledge about guns.


45 caliber long colt.
Handgun bullets that also work with the Winchester 1894.
Whether or nots is coincidence, I really don't know but, it's also capable to fire 410 shells.
Spoiler for Shells:

410 bore.

00 Buckshots.

I don't know if Ryukishi planned this though or as said, it just being a coincidence.

More importantly:
the existance of the 45 caliber long colt shows Kinzo might own some handguns.
Those cartridges are meant for revolvers.
The manga in EP 8 chap 8 in reference to the M1894 mentions, talking about the bullets, the number 45 & 410 (caliber and shell?) while talking about the M 1897 mentions the number 410 & 00.

Considering Ryukishi said he would supervise the manga there's a huge chance he is behind the plot change that added this dialogue and that therefore he planned everything.
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Old 2012-11-23, 22:04   Link #31233
Renall
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No one knows Rosa was there when Beatrice-2 died though. Rosa ran off. She never told anybody. How is anyone going to know?

...for that matter how did anyone find Beatrice-2's body? Did Genji trawl around the island in a boat until he saw the corpse? How long did that take?
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Old 2012-11-23, 23:31   Link #31234
LyricalAura
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No one knows Rosa was there when Beatrice-2 died though. Rosa ran off. She never told anybody. How is anyone going to know?

...for that matter how did anyone find Beatrice-2's body? Did Genji trawl around the island in a boat until he saw the corpse? How long did that take?
So, how about that forgery where Kawabata finds a beautiful amnesiac girl with a horrible head wound and takes her home with him?
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Old 2012-11-23, 23:51   Link #31235
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
No one knows Rosa was there when Beatrice-2 died though. Rosa ran off. She never told anybody. How is anyone going to know?

...for that matter how did anyone find Beatrice-2's body? Did Genji trawl around the island in a boat until he saw the corpse? How long did that take?
You've forgotten Episode 7. Rosa ran home, and at first she didn't tell anyone, but late that night when she couldn't sleep from the guilt, she called Genji on the phone and told him what happened. And Genji told her "to let him handle everything, and to speak of this to no one".
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Old 2012-11-24, 02:40   Link #31236
Renall
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You've forgotten Episode 7. Rosa ran home, and at first she didn't tell anyone, but late that night when she couldn't sleep from the guilt, she called Genji on the phone and told him what happened. And Genji told her "to let him handle everything, and to speak of this to no one".
Why would Genji have told Yasu that part though? And if he did, wouldn't he have explicitly mentioned it was an accident? Rosa only thinks she killed her in the sense that it was irresponsible to go out with her... which is true, but she was young and didn't intend to do anything harmful.

Unless, you know, he was deliberately lying about that to make Rosa look culpable. Which would be interesting, but other than Rosa's lack of survival and the stuff in Alliance (which we don't know that Yasu knows about anyway, to say nothing of Tohya who continues the Rosa trend despite Turn being her longest run), there's nothing that would support that.

Plus the story in itself seems somewhat contradictory to the existence of a Beatrice-3 at all, so it wouldn't be a good point to make to someone you're trying to convince is that person.

Also, it doesn't explicitly make clear what happened to the body. Genji would've still had to go find it and then... do what with it?
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Old 2012-11-24, 04:01   Link #31237
GoldenLand
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Who knows. I was only commenting to say that it wasn't correct that Rosa didn't tell anyone about Beatrice 2. (And by extension, that I suppose Genji would have had a vague idea of where the body was.)

It does remain a mystery what exactly happened to the body, though. It seems clear that she was deader than dead, but if the body was recovered (and they probably would at least have tried to find her on the tiny chance she was still alive and Rosa was mistaken), it would make sense for her to be buried on the island.

But Kinzo never mentioned her grave or anything like that ("Oooooh Beatrice, I want to take you from this grave and see you smile again! Why did you leave me again, cruel witch?"). Come to think of it, he never mentioned Beatrice the first's grave either. As far as I remember. Presumably, then, both of them are buried somewhere on the island. Probably not Kuwadorian, as I don't remember anyone seeing graves while looking around that place in the series.

Perhaps some of those times when Kinzo would disappear, he was visiting the graves? It's as good an explanation as any.
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Old 2012-11-24, 05:06   Link #31238
Drifloon
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Actually, it's interesting because Alliance can definitely be taken to show Rosa as one of the main catalysts for the murders. So it sort of makes sense that Yasu always kills Rosa so early.

Rosa killing Sakutaro is presented as the point at which Mariage Sorciere stops being all happy and fluffy and starts being about sinister magic designed to hurt others. So you could say that if Rosa hadn't done that, Mariage Sorciere would never have gotten to the point where Yasu would actually come up with the idea of the murder ceremony to begin with.
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Old 2012-11-24, 10:17   Link #31239
Renall
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Yeah but bearing a grudge like that seems out of character for Yasu. Worse, Turn is the episode that redeems Rosa the most and keeps her around as long as possible. So it honestly doesn't appear that there is a grudge. It's Tohya who continues the "let's bag on Rosa and kill her off all the time" theme, and he has no known reason to bear a grudge against Rosa particularly. It's questionable if he even knows anything about her relationship with Maria.

If we took just the first two stories to determine who gets treated worse, it's Rudolf and Kyrie, both of whom die in the First Twilight both times. Neither is portrayed in a particularly negative light in Legend or Turn. Indeed, Kyrie is treated very well.
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Old 2012-11-24, 13:40   Link #31240
jjblue1
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No one knows Rosa was there when Beatrice-2 died though. Rosa ran off. She never told anybody. How is anyone going to know?

...for that matter how did anyone find Beatrice-2's body? Did Genji trawl around the island in a boat until he saw the corpse? How long did that take?
Well, Rosa told Genji. Genji might have told Kumasawa. Kumasawa might have tattled out inadvertitely as she likes to chat.
We see the story from Rosa's perspective so she definitely look innocent.
From Kawabata's perspective she might have been an irresponsible child who lead on a dangerous path the girl she had raised form when she was a baby or something like that or worse.
We know Rosa's temper tends to flare up violently and she was annoyed by Beato's behaviour. Kawabata might have thought Rosa had done what in truth Natsuhi did to the servant, causing Beato to fall.
After all, unless is pure speculation how Rosa was involved in Beato 2's death, someone knew about it and let Toya know.
Rosa's reaction in Ep 2 seems to point out who wrote Ep 2 knew as well but this might be just speculation.

Despite all this I think if Rosa's life is cut short in the tales is because she's a horrible mother to Maria though an interesting theory might be that in the first episode Rosa's early death is a casuality while in Toya's work is a reference to something that happened in Rokkenjima.
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