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Old 2012-12-20, 15:58   Link #31461
Drifloon
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Most people would believe that Rosa is an accomplice in EP2 rather than the culprit; Yasu presumably bribed her with the gold. This makes just as much sense of the scene with the butterfly landing on her back, in all honesty. Rosa culprit theory seems to be the 'red herring trap' in EP2 (Bernkastel mentions that there's a huge weak spot in EP2 and she wants to take advantage of it but doesn't like how obvious it is), like Eva culprit theory in EP3.

Ryukishi has confirmed in an interview that Shannon is the culprit for the murders in Natsuhi's room, at the very least (incidentally, this scenario is the only one in EP2 which seems to be completely impossible for Rosa; it plays a similar role to Nanjo's murder in EP3, suddenly casting doubt on the 'obvious culprit' at the very end of the episode by presenting a murder that's impossible for them).

The idea of the servants setting up the scenario with Nanjo and Kumasawa is pretty well accepted. I personally believe that Yasu manipulated them into suspecting Rosa and setting this up; then Yasu killed Nanjo and Kumasawa after they were out of sight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
In regards to Yasu's character in general, I've been following this recently. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UtKwtM754/edit
It's a liveblog/analysis / reread of EP 1 that heavily tries to focus on seeing things from Yasu's perspective, and while a bit unstructured, offers some really interesting insights on who she was as a person, as well as pointing out a lot of seemingly random bits in the narrative that take on a whole new meaning with hindsight.
Wow, this looks really interesting, though kinda overwhelmingly big. I'll definitely set aside some time to read through this.
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Old 2012-12-20, 16:18   Link #31462
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The current theory trending here seems to be along the lines of "Yasu intended that her Shkanontrice character be the culprit, but she herself may or may not have been the culprit in 'real life,' and if she wasn't it's either because somebody else was or nothing actually happened (i.e. an accident)."

With obvious variations on that theme. I don't think it's easily disputed that the author at least intended that we believe Shkanontrice to be the solution.
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Old 2012-12-20, 16:53   Link #31463
Dormin
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I also have read the interviews. Never actually concidered rosa in episode 2 to be a trap to lure readers in, but now i think it might be possible.

And back to Yasu, i guess it was at least semi-canonly (or in golden text of the creator, or something) at least heavily hinted to be answer to beatos boards. However, i can't just accept it:

1. It forgets the heart: umineko pictures love (expect kyrie, that chick is crazy) as a beautiful thing, not as something that forces you to kill.
2. Personally i find it hard to believe that Yasu would just flip, killing everyone in the progress. S/he was written more like a sad and tragic character
3. Episode 6: duel of lovers. Battler loses first. George wins. If we accept that the duel is "the heart" of yasu, wouldn't that mean Yasu truly loves george? Even more than battler? Doesn't that mean if we thin yasu to be culprit, he always kills the man he truly loves?
4. I always thought that yasu was more interested in the mystery-part in detective stories, rather than actual murders. He liked puzzles, not the blood.
5. When battler figures out "the truth" in episode 5, he immidiately forgives beatrice. Doesn't this kinda heavily imply that beatrice wasn't a mindless killer after all?
6. If we think about accomplices i find it hard to believe people like genji would actually go with mindless massacre. I guess nanjo is bribable as shown, but genji is heavily against incest, and imo murder is kinda worse. I think that at least genji would realize kinda quikly if yasu was going to flip, i think he was kinda watching over him since childhood

Sorry if numbering my thoughts looks bit cocky, but these are at least some of the points why i must disagree with the hints given us in the interviews.

What about if ruykishi is just a big troll and wants to confuse us?
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Old 2012-12-20, 17:18   Link #31464
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Yes, all of that is why people have a very hard time believing Yasu to be the culprit of what we refer to as Rokkenjima-Prime, that is, "reality" in the Umineko world (whatever it is, if it exists).

However, even if you never intend to hurt anybody you can write a fictional story in which the character who represents you kills everybody. The only evidence we have of Yasu expressing any intention to harm anybody comes from the first two stories, and that doesn't really prove an actual intent to harm anybody, and indeed I have a hard time believing that Yasu would succeed in causing everyone to die even if Yasu actually wanted to do so. The rest of the stories were written by somebody else, so if the Beatrice character does something we can't even relate that back to her original creator's intentions.

And yeah nobody gets Genji's deal, but it's easier to explain if you buy "Genji wouldn't have behaved like this IRL, but in stories he can because whatever, he's a butler robot."
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Old 2012-12-20, 18:45   Link #31465
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Though I think it is wrong to say that we do not see Yasu. Yasu is merely seperating everything about himself into 3 entities, but then again including 3 seperate narratives (that of Beatrice Castiglioni, Beatrice II and the ghost of Akujikijima) into one of the 3 entities, Beatrice.
They're not Yasu, but parts of her. To get Yasu you should mix them in the right recipe which we can try to guess but which we don't have.
The 3 identities in which Yasu is separating herself are pretty different. If we take Kanon he would react in a certain way, Shannon in another Beato in another one but whcih of the three would be the way Yasu would react? A mix of the three? Or one of the three would be the predominant?

Although Shannon wins Kanon in the love duel is it because Kanon loved Jessica less than Shannon loved George (and therefore Yasu loved Jessica less than George) or because Yasu believed there were more chances for her if she were to leave with George? Or it was solely because George asked her to marry while Jessica merely asked Kanon to try and get close?
Or because she felt more female than male?

Yasu's options differs from the ones Shannon, Kanon and Beato had. Kanon doesn't love George or Battler but Yasu likely had feelings for them. Are Kanon's, Shannon's and Beato's feeling of love the same as the ones of Yasu?
I wouldn't say that because for Kanon the most important person is Jessica, for Shannon is George, for Beato is Battler.

So yes, we see hints to how Yasu is/was as her characteristics were spit in 3 people but we don't see Yasu as a whole if not in 2 short instances.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
No, I would say that he actually splits himself into 4 entities, because the role of the family head, the master of the mansion, is played by him as well. I am still very sure that the Kinzo we see in Episode 4 is actually just another extension of Yasu.
If we consider what we learned in Our Confession, that Natsuhi and Krauss are made into accomplices, then look at EP4, we could assume that Kinzo's anger is actually Yasu's anger.
I've considered the... let's call him Kinzo-ghost of Ep 4 could be another representation of Yasu as well. After all it was likely Yasu who showed up at the family conference and that killed the ones who died there.

However for the full of Kinzo showed in Umineko there's a huge chance he's created by a bit of everyone. The one that praises Natsuhi in Ep 1-5for example is likely solely in Natsuhi's head. The one Rosa met in EP 2 is either a lie or in Rosa's head. The one of EP 3 is likely solely a fantasy scene insertion.

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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Just wanted to jump into this conversation and say I believe Yasu tried to, well, not outright tell him, but slowly try to hint at things which were important. George however, completely and consciously ignores whatever she tries to tell him, blowing off her furniture complex as 'cute', too wrapped up in his own shoujo romance fantasy to care about who she is as a person. Seen here in spectacular form.
Spoiler for George. >_<:
George is pretty self centered in his whole relationship with Shannon and, although he brushes away her furniture complex as unimportant he gives me the feeling he feels superior of her. Be it because he's older, a male, the grandson of her master or because that's how is character is, it's up to speculation but personally I'm not very fond of the way he handles her.

There's to say though it's not exactly easy to guess which message Shannon is trying to give him.

I mean... she can't have kids. Her breasts are completely fake. There's the chance she originally was a boy raised into the belief he was a girl. She's George's cousin as well as aunt/uncle. She ended up in ths predictment because George's grandad had sex with his illegittimate daughter no one knew about then said daughter died and she was entruested to Natsuhi who tried to kill her by making her fall from a cliff but she survived and Genji thought this was the perfect solution.

The more one goes on the less likely all this seem possible. George knew Shannon by a lifetime as a normal, shy servant girl.
It's more likely to expect she calls herself furniture because Genji does so and she feels inferior in status to him (a thing that some adults like to underline) than due to all this mess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
In regards to Yasu's character in general, I've been following this recently. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UtKwtM754/edit
It's a liveblog/analysis / reread of EP 1 that heavily tries to focus on seeing things from Yasu's perspective, and while a bit unstructured, offers some really interesting insights on who she was as a person, as well as pointing out a lot of seemingly random bits in the narrative that take on a whole new meaning with hindsight.
I'm going to give it a look, thanks for pointing it out!

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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
For instance, the very first time we see Yasu is as Kanon, and when Battler walks up greeting him as his usual exuberant self, Kanon just stands there, mouth hanging open and blushing. While the narrative just brushes it off as "Kanon being shy", I think it's more likely one of the few moments when Yasu legitimately breaks character.
Spoiler for Yasu as Kanon:


Anyway, just wanted to share. >_>
I've found pretty interesting the first meeting between Kanon and Battler. In the manga this seems to be even more underlined when Kanon thinks again at his meeting with Battler... The first time I saw it I got the feeling Kanon was crushing on him...

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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
3. Episode 6: duel of lovers. Battler loses first. George wins. If we accept that the duel is "the heart" of yasu, wouldn't that mean Yasu truly loves george? Even more than battler? Doesn't that mean if we thin yasu to be culprit, he always kills the man he truly loves?
Battler doesn't lose, he's forced to leave the game because trapped in a logic error, or, if you want to apply it to Rokkenjima and not to the fantasy narrative, because he was away from the island for 6 years. This gave George the time to declare himself a thing that pushed Yasu to chose him over Jessica.
However, although Beato and therefore Yasu's feelings for Battler were supposed to disappear with that choice, in the end they survived and Beato/Yasu tried to get Battler back.

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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
6. If we think about accomplices i find it hard to believe people like genji would actually go with mindless massacre. I guess nanjo is bribable as shown, but genji is heavily against incest, and imo murder is kinda worse. I think that at least genji would realize kinda quikly if yasu was going to flip, i think he was kinda watching over him since childhood
Well, we don't really know which scale of values Genji have. Some people can be strongly against a crime but have no problem with another.
However I think that in Prime no one was so easy to bribe as in the gameboard.

It's a common theory that Yasu was the killer in the games but that's highly unlikely she wanted to kill people in Prime. Even the meta narrative supports the idea all Beato wanted to do was to kill the characters/pieces of a story, not real people.
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Old 2012-12-20, 19:41   Link #31466
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Quote:
Episode 6: duel of lovers. Battler loses first. George wins. If we accept that the duel is "the heart" of yasu, wouldn't that mean Yasu truly loves george? Even more than battler? Doesn't that mean if we thin yasu to be culprit, he always kills the man he truly loves?

Taken from a later interview, meta Yasu at least (and possibly real Yasu if you subscribe to Yasu = Ikuko) loved all three of them enough to want to keep the lid on the catbox by killing off Beato so all romances could survive (maybe that is where Ikuko came from. Don't forget, according to Ryu Battler is apparently found by Ikuko years later. Suicide attempt I wonder?). In Ryu's mind, she loved eached of them too much to even consider letting one of the romances go, to the point she would kill herself. He must really have laughed when people kept asking him if the romances were real (or been sad no-one got it).


As for the first meeting, on my first re-read of ep 1 after getting Shkannontrice, I read that scene as Kanon saying "even I (have some feelings for Battler....)" due to Battler's white knight carrying of fertiliser. I mean, sure, Yasu says she transferred the seed of love from Shannon to Beato, but she clearly wasn't as in control of love as she liked (It seems to me she assumed this had turned off all ability to love for the other two, at least from what i read in ep 2). Maybe she also isn't completely good at keeping her feelings confined to one personality. Leading a double life isn't easy after all...
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Old 2012-12-20, 20:38   Link #31467
Oroboro
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As Kanon's character is defined, there should be no reason to him to have any reaction to Battler at all, other than the basic indifference he treats everyone else with. Just some kid he doesn't know and has absolutely no prior history or interaction with Battler whatsoever. But Kanon still couldn't keep it together.

Likely, Yasu went out with Kanon first to test the waters for herself and others, to meet the cousins using the persona with no history or baggage attached to it. And all things considered, it helped her re-prepare herself to deal with him as Shannon afterwords. (And even then was still pretty flustered.)

Quote:
There's to say though it's not exactly easy to guess which message Shannon is trying to give him.

I mean... she can't have kids. Her breasts are completely fake. There's the chance she originally was a boy raised into the belief he was a girl. She's George's cousin as well as aunt/uncle. She ended up in ths predictment because George's grandad had sex with his illegittimate daughter no one knew about then said daughter died and she was entruested to Natsuhi who tried to kill her by making her fall from a cliff but she survived and Genji thought this was the perfect solution.

The more one goes on the less likely all this seem possible. George knew Shannon by a lifetime as a normal, shy servant girl.
It's more likely to expect she calls herself furniture because Genji does so and she feels inferior in status to him (a thing that some adults like to underline) than due to all this mess.
I think the message Shannon wants to pass to George is sort of an aggregate of all of that. Basically "I have serious problems that are tearing me apart on the inside. And even if you knew, you would probably hate me for it. " But George just totally ignores it all.
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Old 2012-12-20, 21:14   Link #31468
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I think the message Shannon wants to pass to George is sort of an aggregate of all of that. Basically "I have serious problems that are tearing me apart on the inside. And even if you knew, you would probably hate me for it. " But George just totally ignores it all.
Yes, the problem is that apparently she has no serious problems at all apart from a maid complex. She seems an ordinary orphan girl who's living an ordinary life as a servant.

Apart from maybe her witch obsession she doesn't seem out of the ordinary, especially to George who's not exactly experienced.

So, although he's a self centered idiot, it's not that surprising he completely fail to guess that she has such huge problems.
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Old 2012-12-20, 22:10   Link #31469
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Yes, I thought about this a lot, but it would really fit, wouldn't it?
In EP2 Rosa is up in the study and claims to have met Kinzo. At the end of this same Episode, after Yasu has supposedly died, the Kinzo in the study is a silent, unmoving puppet.
In EP4 Kinzo is angry with Krauss for him being unable to keep the siblings occupied and steps into the game himself. In the dining room he summons the Chiesters (which we know are the Winchester guns that Yasu is in possession of) and a "violent storm" is raging through the room. This could also be seen as Yasu supplying the adults with weapons and them shooting at each other, couldn't it?

When we see not Kinzo, but the "master of the island fulfilling his pact with the witch and sacrificing all his possession for the return to the Golden Land", this would fit Yasu much more, wouldn't it?
Whenever the servants talk about the piece Kinzo in terms of his actions on the board it is always "the master of the mansion". But in 1986 this is not Kinzo anymore...it is Yasu, isn't it?

Actually, because of things like that, I was convinced that what we were seeing as Kinzo (the guy in the study with Nanjo, the one who gave Rosa the guns, the one who committed the first twilight murders in EP4) was Shannon.

I couldn't figure out the Shkanonigans, and I decided the one going around pretending to be the blonde witch that we saw in EP2 was Kanon. I wonder if I still have those notes scattered around somewhere.

Quote:
As for the first meeting, on my first re-read of ep 1 after getting Shkannontrice, I read that scene as Kanon saying "even I (have some feelings for Battler....)" due to Battler's white knight carrying of fertiliser.
I've not read the VNs until after watching the anime twice, and that particular line was not in it. I remember it always struck me as a little strange, and seemed almost... suspicious.

Reading it now not just as in a Shkanontrice culprit theory but as a Yasu Author Theory, it seems even stranger.
Is she presenting Shkanon as an idealized version of her personalities where they all fulfill their roles perfectly. It's interesting that she would even present that "leak" for lack of a better work right now.

Also, I just saw more Shkanontrice deniers talking about the I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

Erika can be the 18th human on Rokkenjima but there will still be 17 people because if Erika ended up on the shores of Rokkenjima, she was probably already dead. Just like Kinzo

Hey, it's pretty fitting for a piece who got Bern upset. No miraculous life jacket to save her.
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Old 2012-12-21, 07:22   Link #31470
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I like the theory that erika is already dead. Sad end to somehow sad character.

But what it comes to episodes 5 and 6, i always had hard time to consider them as parts of the main mystery. I understand that in the universe they are "written" by different person, but are they really serious adds to the story? I always thought that they are just boards constructed in order to give us hints about the "real" core of the story, episodes 1-4. Willard doesn't even touch the games when "slicing the illusions" in the episode 7.

Even though i love erika as one of the badassest antagonists, i find the episodes 5 and 6 somehow separated from the rest of the story. I actually haven't even tried to solve the mysteries behind these episodes and concentrated only on 1-4, treating 5 and 6 only as clues. That's why shkanontrice hate based on red text on extra clue chapters always felt like missing the point to me.
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Old 2012-12-21, 07:58   Link #31471
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[QUOTE=Dormin;4484148]I like the theory that erika is already dead. Sad end to somehow sad character.[q/uote]

I wonder if Erika even arrived on Rokkenjima. Wasn't her presence there merely speculated by the people in Prime s she fell from the boat and her fate ended up in a catbox the same as what happened on Rokkenjima?

It allowed her to be placed on the island in the tales but I can't remember any confirmation about her reaching for real the island.

Also, although I like the theory of Erika being dead it's a bit unlikely that the detective (Ep 5) and more important the killer (ep 6) are dead.
The detective should have a reliable perspective and Erika is shown being able to interact with people, a thing a corpse usually don't do (unless we suppose she's a ghost and then really, if we can have ghost why not to have witches?). A dead killer should be able to... kill nothing really, unless someone else was doing the killing and Erika's theory is again WRONG and she had no idea what her piece was doing on Rokkenjima.

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But what it comes to episodes 5 and 6, i always had hard time to consider them as parts of the main mystery. I understand that in the universe they are "written" by different person, but are they really serious adds to the story? I always thought that they are just boards constructed in order to give us hints about the "real" core of the story, episodes 1-4. Willard doesn't even touch the games when "slicing the illusions" in the episode 7.

Even though i love erika as one of the badassest antagonists, i find the episodes 5 and 6 somehow separated from the rest of the story. I actually haven't even tried to solve the mysteries behind these episodes and concentrated only on 1-4, treating 5 and 6 only as clues. That's why shkanontrice hate based on red text on extra clue chapters always felt like missing the point to me.
Honestly I thought Will didn't touch them because Will is a meta figure called to investigate on Beato and give a requiem to Clair. Although he knows of the other 2 boards (he said Ep 5 introduced the MF19YA and also commented something about Battler's story) to give Clair her requiem he has to deal with the boards that belonged to Beato. Funny enough in Prime 2 of them weren't written by Yasu but by Battler.
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Old 2012-12-21, 08:41   Link #31472
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No, no confirmation on Erika's arrival was ever given. It was merely stated in EP6's tips that those who knew about her would often write her into the story because apparently her ship went down in that area or something.

I think then, that if you think about the red being a statement about Erika's status, it becomes not a red of the gameboard, but a red about Prime. Although not a very helpful or useful one.
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Old 2012-12-21, 13:04   Link #31473
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Honestly I thought Will didn't touch them because Will is a meta figure called to investigate on Beato and give a requiem to Clair. Although he knows of the other 2 boards (he said Ep 5 introduced the MF19YA and also commented something about Battler's story) to give Clair her requiem he has to deal with the boards that belonged to Beato. Funny enough in Prime 2 of them weren't written by Yasu but by Battler.
Also, he didn't even really address the fourth one. He kinda stops 2/3 of the way through Banquet.
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Old 2012-12-21, 15:02   Link #31474
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Also, he didn't even really address the fourth one. He kinda stops 2/3 of the way through Banquet.
Well, he address Ep 4 but only to tell everything about the tale is a lie. It doesn't really help to figure out how it had happened, it just tells us that nearly whatever we heard about the murders was an illusion.

First he says:
Illusions to illusions. ......Tales woven by the gold truth return to illusions.

And then:
Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. ......Silent corpses, adorned by fiction.
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Old 2012-12-21, 15:50   Link #31475
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But what it comes to episodes 5 and 6, i always had hard time to consider them as parts of the main mystery. I understand that in the universe they are "written" by different person, but are they really serious adds to the story?
I think in terms of EP5 we have to consider what Ronove and Virgilia said about the gameboard. Ronove said it lacks love and Virgilia likened it to misusing parts of the gameboard to win an argument (throwing pieces at your oponent or scribbling on the board).
I think it was intended to be impossible to actually play a totally different game on the board without it becoming clear. You can create events on a magical level, but you can't force events that would be impossible in that context on the reality-level.

In that way the stories are warped but still in the realm of likelihood. That Battler actually made mistakes when constructing his story in a way to conceal the 'culprit' is shown through the logic error.
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Old 2012-12-21, 16:51   Link #31476
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think in terms of EP5 we have to consider what Ronove and Virgilia said about the gameboard. Ronove said it lacks love and Virgilia likened it to misusing parts of the gameboard to win an argument (throwing pieces at your oponent or scribbling on the board).
I think it was intended to be impossible to actually play a totally different game on the board without it becoming clear. You can create events on a magical level, but you can't force events that would be impossible in that context on the reality-level.

In that way the stories are warped but still in the realm of likelihood. That Battler actually made mistakes when constructing his story in a way to conceal the 'culprit' is shown through the logic error.
Not to mention said mistakes stem from retroactive moves (prime example of piece-throwing). And I would go beyond saying they are 'warped' and totally question the realm of likelihood you mention. This issue is my biggest reproach to episode 5, 6 and Our Confession. What was 'the metaworld' in When They Cry 3 was only acceptable within a mystery novel because it didn't influence 'the natural world'. And I don't think these gameboards could be explained without a supernatural (i.e. meta) influence.

The solution to the logic error only works because Erika generously let the closet untouched before examining the bathroom. In other words, it only works because of meta-considerations. I don't think it is possible to plausibly account for Battler's escape without factoring in the meta-world. One could argue that the prank Battler set incited her to see it beforehand, but that directly contradicts the fact that she thoroughly checked the bedroom first.

I will say more. I don't think one can plausibly explain Kanon's disappearance without factoring in meta-motives. What method made possible for Kanon—and not Battler—to disappear? I see two, but feel free to add more to the count: 1) dying (because Battler couldn't die or else the letter given to Erika would have been false) 2) turning into Shannon. Dying can be accounted for by suicide or Erika shooting through the door (unproven, but plausible if one takes in account that she burgled Kinzo's study and killed the fake corpses before beheading them). Turning into Shannon is self-explanatory.

But none of these explanations are credible in the natural world. Being shot? It only works because Erika didn't have the chance to open the closet, or she would immediately find out the truth. Therefore, only works because the game stopped, something impossible in the natural world. Committing suicide? Not only would it make Erika realise the truth, it would be extremely difficult to account for, motive-wise. Turning into Shannon doesn't even begin to make sense in the natural world. Why would she flee from the cousins' room, turn into Kanon, save Battler and then go back to being Shannon while in the closet?

No wonder Will didn't bother with the fifth and sixth games; they are not even close to have the heart.
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Old 2012-12-21, 17:26   Link #31477
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Hey i just wanted to join in the wild speculation thread, just finished umineko.
Congrats! Welcome to the land of us chattering goats, etc. etc. !!

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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
Spoiler for stuff:
Well, to be very frank about most of that,
1. I think you have problems with Ryukishi's writing / plotting, more than "Shkanon"
2. The gameboards don't need to match up with "what actually happened that day". Lots of things are possible in the catbox, after all. When you're ready, I'd recommend reading through Our Confessions, which is pretty much a walkthrough of Beato making the outlines for another gameboard, and confirms the tricks from a lot of the other Episodes. Wanderer rather graciously provided a translation not too long ago, and I guess someone copy+pasta's it to the wiki.

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Our_Confession


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Yes, the problem is that apparently she has no serious problems at all apart from a maid complex. She seems an ordinary orphan girl who's living an ordinary life as a servant.

Apart from maybe her witch obsession she doesn't seem out of the ordinary, especially to George who's not exactly experienced.

So, although he's a self centered idiot, it's not that surprising he completely fail to guess that she has such huge problems.
Yeah, people are being really hard on George here, I think.
He may seem to consider himself her intellectual superior, but ... I mean, it never seemed, to me, that she was trying to communicate her problems to George. At best, her rather romantic view of the world. And, to boot, both Jessica and Battler have much more openly expressed a disdain for that kind of thing, while George just sort of accepted it as a step in her way to adulthood.

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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
I like the theory that erika is already dead. Sad end to somehow sad character.

But what it comes to episodes 5 and 6, i always had hard time to consider them as parts of the main mystery. I understand that in the universe they are "written" by different person, but are they really serious adds to the story? I always thought that they are just boards constructed in order to give us hints about the "real" core of the story, episodes 1-4. Willard doesn't even touch the games when "slicing the illusions" in the episode 7.
Erika's body was never found, but she fell overboard in the area. I was thinking today, actually, about how she can be so detached about destroying Rokkenjima in EP8 - after all, if the Ushiromiya's were "ghosts of 1986", then surely she was, too?

That's when I realized - Erika has the ability to take part on Rokkenjima gameboards, but she can also take part in other mysteries, too, if you're willing to make the improbable assumption that she survived and drifted away and never wanted to go home again.

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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
Even though i love erika as one of the badassest antagonists, i find the episodes 5 and 6 somehow separated from the rest of the story. I actually haven't even tried to solve the mysteries behind these episodes and concentrated only on 1-4, treating 5 and 6 only as clues. That's why shkanontrice hate based on red text on extra clue chapters always felt like missing the point to me.
I think you're correct, that Chiru was moreso supposed to be additional clues for us. Neither of those gameboards even goes past the 2nd Twilight. In Dawn, in particular, there's barely anything there to SOLVE, except maybe "who placed the letter outside the Guesthouse".

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also, he didn't even really address the fourth one. He kinda stops 2/3 of the way through Banquet.
Hey, this is "Nah, we don't need to hear about the last two years" Will, here.
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Old 2012-12-21, 21:12   Link #31478
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yeah, people are being really hard on George here, I think.
He may seem to consider himself her intellectual superior, but ... I mean, it never seemed, to me, that she was trying to communicate her problems to George. At best, her rather romantic view of the world. And, to boot, both Jessica and Battler have much more openly expressed a disdain for that kind of thing, while George just sort of accepted it as a step in her way to adulthood.
Well, Shannon tried to comunicate a certain distress, there's a lack of self worth and a sense of imprisonement in her words to him but the problem it's more than although George could have tried to care more about those issues instead than finding them 'endearing' and, sometimes, using them at his advantage, the situation doesn't seem so terrible.

After all Shannon spent nearly all her life on Rokkenjima and she is an orphan and a servant and therefore below him. He probably finds natural for her to feel unworthy of him, the rich and beloved son of her master's daughter, who had the chance to study and travel much more than her.

He could have been more sensible to her feelings, yes, but really he likely didn't expect them to be nothing more than the result of the way Shannon lived till then.

Maybe he even thought once being married with him she would overcome them naturally or, it's also possible, being as self centered as he is, he wouldn't care if she were to continue to consider him superior to him. After all he lives in a family were male supremacy is pretty predominant so what if Shannon feels inferior as his grandfather thinks is okay for a woman to feel?

He'll be nice to her anyway.

So yes, clearly he wasn't the potential, perfect husband he wanted to be, he's still immature and too self centered but even if he were a way better person it's unlikely he would have figured out what was bugging Shannon without more help from her part.

In a fashion Yasu expects too much from others starting from the promise Battler made her.
Maybe, if Battler had been older and Yasu had made absolutely sure she loved him and wanted him to take her away it would be fair to demand from him to remember that promise and come take her away but Battler was just a kid who had lost his mother and had left his family, likely while in an emotional turmoil.

And as years went by and she never contacted him nor let him know her feelings even if he maybe had thought at her, it's likely he thought she forgot him or that she didn't take him seriously.

And when he's back and find her in love with George... well, it looks like she hadn't wasted her time waiting for him so why should he feel guilty for not going to get her?

All in all Yasu isn't really good in understanding others and comunicating with them. It's not all her fault as she wasn't raised in an environment that made easy for her to learn it but it's surely part of the problem.

Likely, if she had tried contacting Battler or had chosen a different approach once he came on Rokkenjima, things would have gone differently.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Erika's body was never found, but she fell overboard in the area. I was thinking today, actually, about how she can be so detached about destroying Rokkenjima in EP8 - after all, if the Ushiromiya's were "ghosts of 1986", then surely she was, too?
That's pretty likely, yes.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
That's when I realized - Erika has the ability to take part on Rokkenjima gameboards, but she can also take part in other mysteries, too, if you're willing to make the improbable assumption that she survived and drifted away and never wanted to go home again.
She's an interesting theory that seems to match the one in the bad ending when we see her on the boat with Ange...

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Hey, this is "Nah, we don't need to hear about the last two years" Will, here.
The problem with that particular quote is that even if Will comes out nice toward Yasu as he doesn't force her to tell him something that's painful for her to talk about, readers honestly could care less about the nonexistant feelings of the character of a story, in the sense we want to know and we know that, since Yasu isn't real, her pain in telling her story would be fictional as well.

So, personally, I would have preferred if, when Will told her we didn't need to hear about this, she had told him: 'no, I want to talk about it' and spoke it up. In exchange Ryukishi might have cut the story of how Rosa met Beato as it's exactly the same as the one we already heard in Ep 3 and even he admitted it didn't add anything new.

And really, instead than having some Battler bashing in form of complaining about how Battler was quite a disagreeable man because he never realized that the outbreak of the crime was his fault, I would have liked to hear Battler's side instead of him being randomly absent.
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Old 2012-12-21, 21:53   Link #31479
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The problem with that particular quote is that even if Will comes out nice toward Yasu as he doesn't force her to tell him something that's painful for her to talk about, readers honestly could care less about the nonexistant feelings of the character of a story, in the sense we want to know and we know that, since Yasu isn't real, her pain in telling her story would be fictional as well.
It's less that, and more that I can't empathize with his/her supposed pain if I don't understand where it's coming from. All the pieces were supposedly in place by the time where we stop, yet Yasu's attitude in no way portrays him/her the way he/she apparently wants us to see him/her two years later. So either Yasu experienced some profoundly life-altering pain that we get barely any elaboration on (enough to, maybe, sort of, make a guess), or didn't and then we're left wondering what the hell the motive was for writing what he/she wrote.

It doesn't help that the justifications we do have are pretty much the most pathetically petty things, or things which seriously don't matter that much and seem odd to flip out over. Yet the story has gone to such length to try to discount petty motivation, but refuses to provide something more substantial.

It leaves Yasu a flimsy character... not that he/she wasn't to begin with, but at least some effort is being put in to try to sync up the person we're seeing with the person whose writings we're already familiar with. And then that effort sort of trails off right when it was getting good. If Ryukishi wanted the character to be fully relatable, he failed by being too vague right at the point where he was bringing everything toward a single conception of the character as a full person.

Now, maybe that's the point, designed to make us question whether they could really become that kind of person... but it's kind of a weak point and it causes some retroactive damage to the story that he could've repaired had he continued along with his elaboration. Essentially, if the goal was to make me buy this character as a culprit it was a miserable failure because it didn't push far enough to the genesis of whatever murderous instinct arose; and if the goal was to get me to believe this character is scapegoating themselves, I'm not clear on who they're scapegoating for, why, or when they decided to go forward with that.

Pretty much the worst-realized character in the VN when he/she needed to be the best, or at least one of the best. Quite honestly, every other character in ep7 came across better, which is a travesty considered we supposedly have six episodes of indirect development for this person. Like a half-complete jigsaw puzzle, and half the pieces are from the wrong one.
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Old 2012-12-22, 08:36   Link #31480
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I enjoy the theory that Battler was randomly absent from 7 because Will = amnesic Battler. There is even some proof for it.
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