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Old 2009-11-12, 15:10   Link #3141
Marion
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
You fiends are trying to murder Beato just as heartlessly as Erika did!
fffffffffffffff

I lol'd.

Okay in EP 2 I understand she may not exist (Suit-Beato) because when she's introduced no one has died yet so her being an 18th person is impossible due to the red text. Maybe she was there at the end or a bit later, but then again Battler also saw golden butterflies and a living Kinzo so that scene alone is highly doubtful.

But in EP 4 nothing prevents a Beatrice separate from the 17 people, because when she's introduced it's implied people are already dead. The fact that Battler goes into the mansion then and sees the 6 twilight victims and Maria dead immediately after talking to the Suit-Beato means that they probably were dead for some time (at least the 6 people) thus letting a human Beato slip past the 17 people cut off.

It's not about shipping, it's about facts. There was no text saying Battler was clouded by darkness AND he even said that he didn't recognize Beato's voice on the other side when she talked with him.
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Old 2009-11-12, 15:10   Link #3142
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By the way, who the hell would Battler end up with, assuming Beato isn't real? An incestuous pedophile with two underaged fangirls, with one being his half-sister and the other his cousin?
.....
.....
I don't really care about who will Battler end up with you know...It's th last thing I would care about especially since I don't ship BxB at all and don't really handle it as canon anyway. Sorry. And even I am fine wiht ruining my ship in theories...Shipping is fun and stuff but if you want to argue and be objective than you cannot cling to yor ship so much.


Quote:
Battler saw her near the end of EP4, and I myself am surprised I am saying this, but I cannot wait for the anime's version to come out so people can stop saying "BUT IT WAS DARK AND FORGET ABOUT THE MOON AND THE LIGHTNING AND THAT PIECE-BATTLER SAW HER AND DESCRIBED SEEING HER CLEARLY, IT'S A SHAM!"
The peple will stay say that you know why? Because it will be like that in the anime version as well. Looking up to the third or second floor you are not able to see much details anyway and BAttler objectivity was badly influeced by Jessica's and kyrie's call so that he will be quick to assume "there is Beatrice live and in color!! It has to be Beatrice".

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Buuuut, that could simply mean killing her meta-self, aka the reason she made the game to begin with. Or by discovering the truth, by which point she was dead anyway.
Oh i think he means to kill her meta-self and with that the illusion of Beatrice
Quote:
So you don't think Beato is real simply because there's no proof that she exists?
Yeah, kinda. Something against that?
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Old 2009-11-12, 15:17   Link #3143
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Kaiba: Would Hideyoshi have kept playing along with the "fake bodies" scheme after there were several real corpses? (I think the fake murders would easily work in episode 4, and maybe episode 3.)

Any chance of a life double? (Example: X kills one of the residents Y before most of the people arrived on the island, and impersonates Y. After a little while, X lets Y's corpse be found and hides. Y is dead, and all corpses were identified correctly, and there were never more than 17 people on the island at a time, but there's still a free killer.)
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Old 2009-11-12, 15:22   Link #3144
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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
.....
.....
I don't really care about who will Battler end up with you know...It's th last thing I would care about especially since I don't ship BxB at all and don't really handle it as canon anyway. Sorry. And even I am fine wiht ruining my ship in theories...Shipping is fun and stuff but if you want to argue and be objective than you cannot cling to yor ship so much.




The peple will stay say that you know why? Because it will be like that in the anime version as well. Looking up to the third or second floor you are not able to see much details anyway and BAttler objectivity was badly influeced by Jessica's and kyrie's call so that he will be quick to assume "there is Beatrice live and in color!! It has to be Beatrice".



Oh i think he means to kill her meta-self and with that the illusion of Beatrice


Yeah, kinda. Something against that?
...So you're completely unwilling to even try to believe Beatrice exists? And you don't care about love, even though Battler himself said "Without love, the truth cannot be seen"? Romance is a factor in Umineko. Not as much as family bonds, but it's still an important factor.

Have you played EP5? Being objective does not mean rampaging about and crushing everything that isn't nailed down.
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Old 2009-11-12, 15:36   Link #3145
Jan-Poo
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Now now Work, I think maybe with some effort I can let pass most of your theory, but calling Battler a pedophile for loving someone who is 2 years younger (and 16 years old) is a total bullshit.

Anyway maybe I can think that Beatrice exists but I definitely won't accept that she is disguising as Kumasawa.

You'd have more chances if you tell me that she's disguising as Kanon.
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Old 2009-11-12, 15:40   Link #3146
Marion
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now now Work, I think maybe with some effort I can let pass most of your theory, but calling Battler a pedophile for loving someone who is 2 years younger (and 16 years old) is a total bullshit.

Anyway maybe I can think that Beatrice exists but I definitely won't accept that she is disguising as Kumasawa.

You'd have more chances if you tell me that she's disguising as Kanon.
If people were pedophiles for being in love with people a couple years younger than them then a LOT of people in the world would be considered pedophiles - especially people who are married but are sometimes decades apart.
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Old 2009-11-12, 15:45   Link #3147
Ithekro
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I think he meant Maria and Ange.
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Old 2009-11-12, 16:07   Link #3148
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Which is still preposterous, I've never seen anyone claiming that Beatrice is Ange or Maria
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Old 2009-11-12, 16:09   Link #3149
Marion
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Which is still preposterous, I've never seen anyone claiming that Beatrice is Ange or Maria
Especially since Ange isn't even on the island during the game and Maria is too young and short to look like what Suit-Beato has been described as.
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Old 2009-11-12, 16:17   Link #3150
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He wasn't talking about Beatrice with that pedo comment. He was talking about Battler and how he come off so far. First his comment to Maria about waiting ten years and then telling him to "eat her", and then Ange's bro-con thing.

This, from what I can tell, is what Work is worked up about, because if anything other than Beatrice being real is true, his view is that from a shipping angle...only Maria and Ange are left for Battler.

That's not entirely true. Rosa is free.
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Old 2009-11-12, 16:36   Link #3151
Kaiba
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Beatrice IS one of the 17. She's just... in disguise as somebody for an unknown reason. Perhaps to do with Battler's sin. I'm talking about Piece-Beatrice. AKA Meta-Beatrices' piece. AKA the Blonde and Bouncy witch we know and love. Is that specific enough?

You fiends are trying to murder Beato just as heartlessly as Erika did!
But if Piece-Beatrice exists, than there are more than 17 people on the island, so that' s impossible.
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Old 2009-11-12, 16:40   Link #3152
Marion
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But if Piece-Beatrice exists, than there are more than 17 people on the island, so that' s impossible.
This. Piece-Beato is only ever seen on a meta-level in some form. Now a real Beatrice outside of the 17 is a completely different thing.
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Old 2009-11-12, 17:37   Link #3153
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What about Shannon? He even had a crush on her.

Plus there is absolutely no reason to think Battler will end up with someone. We know Keiichi didn't, nor any of his friends for what matters.
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Old 2009-11-12, 17:54   Link #3154
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Ship defense would keep Shannon with George, Kanon with Jessica...the wives with their husbands, and then try to keep Beatrice with Battler. That's just how it works...which is also why it doesn't...since there should be no real world Beatrice via the red text, that doesn't damage one of these ships...aside from Rosa, Maria, or old lady Chiyo. And Rosa or Maria returns to incest taboo in some countries and Chiyo is rather too old for Battler since she's old enough to be his grandmother.

Thus, shipping clouds one's perceptions. While without love one cannot see, love alone will not find it.
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Old 2009-11-12, 18:08   Link #3155
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Also, I haven't read EP 5 yet.

I'm finally gonna throw this out there. I've had this theory for a really long time, maybe even since EP 1 or 2 and it seems to have made the most sense to me on the relation of magic to the story and how it can be explained. I guess this was an obvious theory but I just wanted to be heard.

Not sure if anyone else has had this same theory but it's what I've been going with. It's long, so I'll keep it in spoiler tags.

Spoiler for Magic Theory:


Well, that's it for now. My theory supporting anti-fantasy. It mainly concerns Episodes 3 and 4. Maybe I'll add to it later on.

Last edited by Shamisen; 2009-11-12 at 18:26.
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Old 2009-11-12, 18:29   Link #3156
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Thus, shipping clouds one's perceptions. While without love one cannot see, love alone will not find it.
I don't think this is the correct way to interpret "love" in umineko. It has nothing to do with romance. This is where english fails for having only one word to define a vast spectrum of affective relationships. In japanese a couple relationship would be called more properly "koi" while "ai" is a lot more generic.
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Old 2009-11-12, 18:42   Link #3157
Marion
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Spoiler for But Romance is a greater mystery:


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Old 2009-11-12, 19:26   Link #3158
Workworkwork
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think this is the correct way to interpret "love" in umineko. It has nothing to do with romance. This is where english fails for having only one word to define a vast spectrum of affective relationships. In japanese a couple relationship would be called more properly "koi" while "ai" is a lot more generic.
Like I said, romance is secondary to family, but it's still an important factor.

Spoiler for But I guess if you want to SINK SHIPS, here's the REAL Beatrice:
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Old 2009-11-12, 22:06   Link #3159
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By the way, who the hell would Battler end up with, assuming Beato isn't real? An incestuous pedophile with two underaged fangirls, with one being his half-sister and the other his cousin?
The only pairing happening so far with Battler is meta-Battler, with meta-Beatrice. And both aren't real people so much as abstract concepts (especially with meta-Beatrice).

There's absolutely nothing icky about real-world Beatrice being related to Battler, if the shipping is occurring with meta-Battler and Beatrice. They're not the same people.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Ship defense would keep Shannon with George, Kanon with Jessica...the wives with their husbands, and then try to keep Beatrice with Battler. That's just how it works...which is also why it doesn't...since there should be no real world Beatrice via the red text, that doesn't damage one of these ships...aside from Rosa, Maria, or old lady Chiyo. And Rosa or Maria returns to incest taboo in some countries and Chiyo is rather too old for Battler since she's old enough to be his grandmother.

Thus, shipping clouds one's perceptions. While without love one cannot see, love alone will not find it.
If anything, you can be sure a shipping arrangement is going to be destroyed at some point. Everything ending happily for all couples is extremely unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What about Shannon? He even had a crush on her.

Plus there is absolutely no reason to think Battler will end up with someone. We know Keiichi didn't, nor any of his friends for what matters.
What strikes me though with the difference in Umineko and Higurashi are the age of their players. It would make sense that no pairings would take place in Higurashi - the players are children, all too young, emotionally inexperienced. Even if one of them paired up, there's no guarantee its not teenaged hormones or whatever. Who ever bets on the couple in a high school romance ever ending up for good in the future?

In Umineko, its different. The players are old enough to deal with love in a mature manner. George can propose to Shannon, and have it seen as an adult act. Battler is a "man" much more than a boy (as are just about all the cousins really, save Maria). The parents are adults and have consummated romance already. So romance is definitely a factor in Umineko, much moreso than in Higurashi.
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Old 2009-11-12, 22:54   Link #3160
Jan-Poo
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Are you really sure they are children? I always thought Mion/Shion were 18 and Keiichi and Rena 17.
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