AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-04-29, 08:42   Link #32181
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Being that Yasu was likely initially male, I assumed that Yasu began roleplaying Kanon in real life as a way to deal with sexual urges for women that she didn't understand (or some such).

From reading stupid goats, it seems likely Shannon didn't really know her body was abnormal until she solved the epitaph (possible, this is someone who has never been intimate with someone, you can turn a boy into a girl pretty successfully and it wasn't even the age of internet porn yet). I can only assume that Yasu with her rich fantasy life began dressing like Kanon to explore a part of her she didn't understand, and then when she knew the truth A) developed a furniture complex and B) began living as Kanon a lot more. Sometimes children who learn about gender reassignment performed on them do begin living as the other sex, but Yasu obviously had a lot tied up in Shannon too.

Also as an aside, I think that the goat blog is a bit harsh on kyrie. At some point they mentioned how she told Rosa that you can't pick which kind of child is born "with a pained look on her face". They interpreted this to mean that she hates Ange, meanwhile I see it retrospectively as a woman reflecting on having a stillbirth (while her romantic rival also snagged her man). Without love hey?
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 09:52   Link #32182
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Also as an aside, I think that the goat blog is a bit harsh on kyrie. At some point they mentioned how she told Rosa that you can't pick which kind of child is born "with a pained look on her face". They interpreted this to mean that she hates Ange, meanwhile I see it retrospectively as a woman reflecting on having a stillbirth (while her romantic rival also snagged her man). Without love hey?
We noticed the same thing. I think they try very hard to read meaning into everything, but this one is especially bizarre because the only evidence we have ever for Kyrie not loving Ange is the things she says to Eva about her, and it's blatantly obvious what she's doing in that scene.

If anything, it's entirely obvious that Kyrie must love Ange, because Ange is the anchor that finally won Rudolf once and for all. Just because Asumu died doesn't necessarily mean Rudolf would've married Kyrie. But with Ange on the way, he pretty much had no choice. I can't imagine why she would resent Ange for that... nor does the text in any way suggest it.

Also... Ange was sick. Maybe Kyrie was just upset about Ange being so sickly? Ange does mention she was like that as a kid. Kyrie might've just been thinking about Ange, stuck at home with her father looking after her, worrying about her. You know, like a mother would. Thinking about her stillbirth would also explain her situation. How you get from that to "doesn't love Ange" is pretty crazy.

Basically, take their analysis very carefully and draw your own conclusions. The blog is very Yasu-centric, very apologetic of his/her behavior, and a bit rough on people who honestly could not have known better. It also seems to randomly dole out responsibility on people for things that they might not have even done or suggest "hints" at their mental state which are not terribly well-supported. This is a good example of it.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 11:19   Link #32183
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Yeah, that thing about Ange struck me too. They seem to have some weird ideas about the EP7 tea party, since they repeatedly talk about Kyrie as if she's confirmed to be the real culprit or something. It's pretty odd, I honestly don't know where they'd get that impression since EP8 goes out of its way to make it clear that the EP7 tea party wasn't the truth. Their analysis brings up a lot of interesting points in general, but yeah, it's far from perfect.

Quote:
Were I to be cynical, I'd say Ryukishi just assumed that Yasu had no friends and saw no reason to outright state as such, given that he doesn't seem to adequately understand the implications of Jessica and Shannon being friends for most of their lives but barely acting like it at any point ever in the actual story. I'd question how well he understands any relationships at all.
I'd have thought that was basically a given, really. If Yasu had had any meaningful relationship with anyone in school, it would have come up in EP7, right? It's made pretty clear that the only time she ever had a chance to socalize was when the cousins came to the island.

And could you elaborate on what exactly is unrealistic about Jessica and Shannon's relationship? It's never struck me as odd...Obviously they can't act like friends in the presence of the family because of the gap in status, but they seemed perfectly friendly at the times you'd expect them to be.
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 11:41   Link #32184
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I'd have thought that was basically a given, really. If Yasu had had any meaningful relationship with anyone in school, it would have come up in EP7, right? It's made pretty clear that the only time she ever had a chance to socalize was when the cousins came to the island.
But the same logic could be applied to her motive to commit the crime. The mere fact that she doesn't say anything about it doesn't mean we should just assume it's true. I think, however, that Ryukishi does assume that she wouldn't have any friends.

I don't see why she wouldn't, though. What was wrong with her at that age? Certainly it's an unusual situation but there's nothing to suggest she acts weird (like Maria) or is unusually sullen and disliked (like Ange) or a dorky creeper (like George). And apparently as Lion she's incredibly popular! It's a weird disconnect. It's making her unpopular and ignored largely because that's what you expect out of her character. At least the other servants have reasons to behave like huge bitches (it's competitive, Yasu's getting special treatment, etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon
And could you elaborate on what exactly is unrealistic about Jessica and Shannon's relationship? It's never struck me as odd...Obviously they can't act like friends in the presence of the family because of the gap in status, but they seemed perfectly friendly at the times you'd expect them to be.
Shannon is basically the only girl even close to her age that Jessica supposedly has known for a long period of time, and the one she would presumably spend the most time around. Ignore whether Yasu isn't social. Jessica is social, goes to school with Shannon/Yasu, and desperately wants to do stuff away from the island... but never suggests that the two of them hang out, or go to lunch, or even maybe try to con Natsuhi into letting them go anywhere (on the basis that hey, Shannon will be with me)? If this sort of thing ever happened, we never hear about it. I'd think Jessica would've at least tried this once, and I can't see any reason why Shannon would refuse.

Meeting Jessica as Kanon though, it's like Yasu has never even really thought much about Jessica's personality and positive traits before. Somehow, she has managed to live with this person for almost a decade and is only now seeing this side of her? It's not like Kanon is discovering some particularly deep side of Jessica either; he's falling for her earnestness and enthusiasm and outgoing interest in him. These are all things you'd think Yasu would already know about.

And Jessica freaks way more out over Kanon's deaths in the stories than she does about Shannon. I get she has a crush on Kanon, but Shannon is the closest thing Jessica has to a sister. A sister who apparently knows nothing about her.

Basically to me it makes Yasu come off as sort of a self-centered prick prior to "meeting" Jessica as Kanon. Which... I'm pretty sure is not at all what we're supposed to take away from that, so I think it's an oversight and not a personality flaw on Yasu's part.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 12:29   Link #32185
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
I don't see why she wouldn't, though. What was wrong with her at that age? Certainly it's an unusual situation but there's nothing to suggest she acts weird (like Maria) or is unusually sullen and disliked (like Ange) or a dorky creeper (like George). And apparently as Lion she's incredibly popular! It's a weird disconnect. It's making her unpopular and ignored largely because that's what you expect out of her character. At least the other servants have reasons to behave like huge bitches (it's competitive, Yasu's getting special treatment, etc.).
Since you mentioned the other servants; they went to the same school and seem more outgoing than she is. Maybe they got together and basically conspired to make Yasu unpopular at school? Shit like that happens homeslice.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 12:32   Link #32186
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
I don't see why she wouldn't, though. What was wrong with her at that age? Certainly it's an unusual situation but there's nothing to suggest she acts weird (like Maria) or is unusually sullen and disliked (like Ange) or a dorky creeper (like George). And apparently as Lion she's incredibly popular! It's a weird disconnect. It's making her unpopular and ignored largely because that's what you expect out of her character. At least the other servants have reasons to behave like huge bitches (it's competitive, Yasu's getting special treatment, etc.).
Well, remember that she spends her time on Rokkenjima being constantly mocked and insulted by the other servants (for understandable reasons, as you say) which would certainly damage her self-confidence. She's also constantly expected to perform jobs that the other servants are obviously much better at, which would make her feel inadequate and useless, leading to a significant inferiority complex. Given that, it seems reasonable that she'd turn in on herself and tend not to try and initiate social interaction due to fear of negative evaluation. In Lion's world she would never have had to go through any of that, and would even be looked up to as the successor to the headship, so it's no surprise that she'd be much more confident and outgoing in such a world.

Quote:
Shannon is basically the only girl even close to her age that Jessica supposedly has known for a long period of time, and the one she would presumably spend the most time around. Ignore whether Yasu isn't social. Jessica is social, goes to school with Shannon/Yasu, and desperately wants to do stuff away from the island... but never suggests that the two of them hang out, or go to lunch, or even maybe try to con Natsuhi into letting them go anywhere (on the basis that hey, Shannon will be with me)? If this sort of thing ever happened, we never hear about it. I'd think Jessica would've at least tried this once, and I can't see any reason why Shannon would refuse.
Well, sure, it wouldn't be strange if Jessica tried something like that, but it's not exactly strange that she wouldn't either. It's hardly fair to criticise Ryukishi for not thinking of the exact same kind of interaction that you are. I'm pretty dubious as to whether Natsuhi would actually allow that in any case; she seems pretty protective of Jessica and I can't imagine her trusting Shannon to look after her.

Also...are you sure about that first line, that Shannon's the only girl Jessica's known for a long time? I got the impression that Jessica was pretty popular at school, so she probably has a lot of other friends besides Shannon.

Quote:
Meeting Jessica as Kanon though, it's like Yasu has never even really thought much about Jessica's personality and positive traits before. Somehow, she has managed to live with this person for almost a decade and is only now seeing this side of her? It's not like Kanon is discovering some particularly deep side of Jessica either; he's falling for her earnestness and enthusiasm and outgoing interest in him. These are all things you'd think Yasu would already know about.
Can we really take that stuff at face value though? Remember that he had to write all that while maintaining the illusion that Kanon is a separate person to Shannon, so it's not like he could explicitly take Shannon's knowledge of Jessica into account when describing Kanon's thoughts at that time. Also, while Yasu may well have been aware of said qualities, she might not have realised the depth of her admiration for them until the Kanon incident triggered her to start analysing her feelings from a romantic standpoint.

Quote:
And Jessica freaks way more out over Kanon's deaths in the stories than she does about Shannon. I get she has a crush on Kanon, but Shannon is the closest thing Jessica has to a sister. A sister who apparently knows nothing about her.
To be fair, people tend to react kind of weirdly to the deaths in general. Writing realistic reactions to stuff like that doesn't seem to be Ryukishi's strong point. But I can sort of see why he never really explored people's reactions to the deaths too much, because if you really went into all the complex emotions that would be triggered for each of the survivors facing the death of each of the six victims of the first twilight, you'd probably end up writing chapters' worth of text about it. Everyone would be a total mess for days afterwards if anything like that happened in real life; the way that they seem to quickly get over their mourning and get back to calmly discussing safety measures and locked rooms is just kind of something we have to accept for the sake of story pacing. There should probably have been a line or two about Jessica feeling sad about Shannon for her own sake and not just for George's in EP1 (pretty sure that's the only time she's even around for Shannon's death, right?) but hey, Ryukishi isn't perfect.
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 12:43   Link #32187
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Also...are you sure about that first line, that Shannon's the only girl Jessica's known for a long time? I got the impression that Jessica was pretty popular at school, so she probably has a lot of other friends besides Shannon.
I don't mean to exclude school friends, but she can only spend so much time around them. Shannon is the only one she sees at home, the one who has been around longest, and the one she's interacted with at family conferences. She'd by necessity be the closest person just by factor of time, and she's the only person who could have passing interactions with Jessica that escape Natsuhi's scrutiny, because the entire purpose of Shannon being there is to both do work (which necessitates being around) and hang out with Jessica (which necessitates being around).

I'm not aware of Jessica going and hanging out with friends on a regular basis, and it's implied Natsuhi would not allow it. But at times when Natsuhi couldn't stop it, such as when Jessica's stranded on Niijima by the rain, you'd think she'd call her friend if she happens to also be in town.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 14:16   Link #32188
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well, it depends a lot on whether she actually did fool Jessica and the family, doesn't it?

Besides, it would still strike me as extremely risky on Yasu's part. Kanon was already reluctant to go, but agreeing to do it just seems like a huge risk for no identifiable benefit. The last thing she needs is somebody who is a little too perceptive noticing her, and she has to assume the people who will be present at the school are going to be people who have seen her in the past.

It's a weird risk and is easier to explain if Kanon's actual existence is very judiciously utilized. But since we seem to have effective confirmation that someone appeared at the school festival with Jessica, it's hard to just handwave the scene away. If Kanon was living a regular, regulated existence, this just seems like a needless risk. If Kanon barely exists at all, it's easier to get away with... but then it becomes nearly impossible to believe Jessica wouldn't know.
Well, it surely fooled Battler and Erika. We can assume Erika never really looked at Kanon and Shannon but Battler apparently had the chance to talk with both and give them both a good look.

Honestly I find hard to think that Jessica would be fooled but here in the past they did rather funny joke programs in which a well known person would disguise as someone else and people would fall for it if the setting seemed reasonable enough. In short, if they had no reason to doubt that person's identity they would maybe notice some resemblance with someone else but not pay too much attention to it.

So maybe that's what what happened to Jessica. I think it'll be harder to fool Natsuhi due to her controlling schedules and servant work (and weren't they worried anymore about the whole issue of the person of X years ago?).
Even assuming Genji and Kumasawa would help her it would require them to do extra work and not be discovered by Natsuhi or another servant who might report it to Natsuhi.

On a sidenote I'll be interested to know how Yasu's life at school was. From the way things are presented it doesn't really seem like she made friends so... was she just being avoided by others or was she being bulllied when Jessica wasn't looking?
was this another common point she had with Maria?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Were I to be cynical, I'd say Ryukishi just assumed that Yasu had no friends and saw no reason to outright state as such, given that he doesn't seem to adequately understand the implications of Jessica and Shannon being friends for most of their lives but barely acting like it at any point ever in the actual story. I'd question how well he understands any relationships at all.
Ironically I said for all of his talking about understanding the heart Ryukishi paid to the fulness of Yasu's heart little regard.

We know about the HUGE drama in her life but next to nothing about her ordinary life. Incidentally it's the good in your ordinary life that helps you to deal with the dramas in your life.
It pushes people to think there was nothing good in her life but... wasn't Shannon respected more by the other young servants because she was the most experienced now? Okay for Gohda who's older and might not be respectful but what about the others? When Jessica called her and that other servant girl in her room they seemed to get along... was this not true?
Was what remained of Yasu's life out of her dramas completely unimportant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We noticed the same thing. I think they try very hard to read meaning into everything, but this one is especially bizarre because the only evidence we have ever for Kyrie not loving Ange is the things she says to Eva about her, and it's blatantly obvious what she's doing in that scene.
Yes, it's pretty hard to take that scene at face value. We've learnt how hard she pursued Rudolf, how she couldn't let him go and now that the guy's dead she was all: that's good I finally got back my freedom again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I don't see why she wouldn't, though. What was wrong with her at that age? Certainly it's an unusual situation but there's nothing to suggest she acts weird (like Maria) or is unusually sullen and disliked (like Ange) or a dorky creeper (like George). And apparently as Lion she's incredibly popular! It's a weird disconnect. It's making her unpopular and ignored largely because that's what you expect out of her character. At least the other servants have reasons to behave like huge bitches (it's competitive, Yasu's getting special treatment, etc.).
Well, I agree it's not developed well, even if you don't really need to have a specific reason in order not to be liked. In the orphanage she didn't have any friends and she still relies on imaginary friends so maybe she wasn't good at interacting with others. Maybe she wasn't that bad, not to the point they'll bully her but maybe... she was just someone who tagged along when she was free but didn't get any special attention. There's plenty of people that just... aren't shiny enough to be noticed so it's not that others avoid them on purpose it's just... they forgot about them because yes, you can stay with them but they aren't that interesting so you'll aim to be with someone else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Shannon is basically the only girl even close to her age that Jessica supposedly has known for a long period of time, and the one she would presumably spend the most time around. Ignore whether Yasu isn't social. Jessica is social, goes to school with Shannon/Yasu, and desperately wants to do stuff away from the island... but never suggests that the two of them hang out, or go to lunch, or even maybe try to con Natsuhi into letting them go anywhere (on the basis that hey, Shannon will be with me)? If this sort of thing ever happened, we never hear about it. I'd think Jessica would've at least tried this once, and I can't see any reason why Shannon would refuse.
Yes, Jessica's friendship for Shannon seems pretty meaningless. It's true sometimes she's dealing with the death of her relative also but you would think Shannon's death would have more of an impact on her.

It makes their friendship hollow and this is underlined by how Kanon always have no chances to win over Shannon. Actually it should be easier for him to have a deeper relation with Jessica as he knows her by longer time and spent with her more time than Shannon with George, who's not even the most caring boyfriend one can wish to have. Yet, Jessica will always lose to George.

But even Battler is... pretty cold toward Shannon's death even if in Ep 3 & 5 he'll point out she was his first love.

But well, the most weird part of all is when Battler seemed completely unprepared to a family loss when actually he just had 3 (his mother and his grandparents). He should have worked up a rationalization and yet that's not the case.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 14:50   Link #32189
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
We know about the HUGE drama in her life but next to nothing about her ordinary life. Incidentally it's the good in your ordinary life that helps you to deal with the dramas in your life.
It pushes people to think there was nothing good in her life but... wasn't Shannon respected more by the other young servants because she was the most experienced now? Okay for Gohda who's older and might not be respectful but what about the others? When Jessica called her and that other servant girl in her room they seemed to get along... was this not true?
Was what remained of Yasu's life out of her dramas completely unimportant?
Well there was that scene where Kanon went to "save Battler from the logic error" in EP6. There Kanon (and so by extension Yasu) gave some insight about the positive aspects of his life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
But even Battler is... pretty cold toward Shannon's death even if in Ep 3 & 5 he'll point out she was his first love.
In EP1 Battler listed the names of the dead people from the first twilight... guess who was the only one he did not mention by name?

The irony here was that he was technically right, after all there were only 5 corpses.
__________________
GreyZone is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 15:31   Link #32190
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well there was that scene where Kanon went to "save Battler from the logic error" in EP6. There Kanon (and so by extension Yasu) gave some insight about the positive aspects of his life.
Problem with that is a lot of those things seem a touch inconsistent. To whom did they apply? Did Yasu have a close relationship with Kinzo? Did Kanon? When did Kanon? There wasn't a whole lot of time between Kanon's creation and Kinzo's "death," though there's considerably more if it applied to Yasu.

But if it did, then uh... did Kinzo know what was going on? It's an unusually friendly gesture on his part. Actually, Kinzo's unusually nice to Kanon in general. When did that start? What part of that applies? What was it he suspected?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-29, 17:01   Link #32191
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
In EP1 Battler listed the names of the dead people from the first twilight... guess who was the only one he did not mention by name?

The irony here was that he was technically right, after all there were only 5 corpses.
Well, Battler couldn't say Shannon's name because he didn't see her and, in fact, she wasn't there. I guess he'd suspected she was a corpse in that corner but, like everyone else waited for Hideyoshi's confirmation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Problem with that is a lot of those things seem a touch inconsistent. To whom did they apply? Did Yasu have a close relationship with Kinzo? Did Kanon? When did Kanon? There wasn't a whole lot of time between Kanon's creation and Kinzo's "death," though there's considerably more if it applied to Yasu.

But if it did, then uh... did Kinzo know what was going on? It's an unusually friendly gesture on his part. Actually, Kinzo's unusually nice to Kanon in general. When did that start? What part of that applies? What was it he suspected?
There's also to add that Ep 8 pictures Kinzo as a lot more nice guy than the other episodes although all the episodes agree in saying he's moody.
So... was he alternatively nice and then a yelling jerk when things didn't go his way?
So had he been that nice with Yasu only or, provided you were to meet him in a good time, he was nice with everyone (maybe Natsuhi put aside)?
It's interesting how Battler's narrative seem to always focus on the good sides of the people (Rosa who's the type who keep her promises, Eva and Hideyoshi who're so friendly and funny and so on) and that in Ep 6 (which is technically written by him) we've Kanon, who's generally the one that complain about everyone, also saying nice stuffs about people.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 02:27   Link #32192
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Small notes, but

1. I'm almost certain that in the EP7 narrative, Yasu claimed to actually have several friends / was friendly with a few other kids at school, but implied that it wasn't something that extended outside of school, itself.

2. Jessica and Battler were both consistently described as outgoing, friendly kids who got on well with both boys and girls. Jessica in particular seems insanely popular at school (she apparently got elected Student Council Head just off that, right?), and is ALSO friends enough with all the Fukuin servants that she knows their birthdays and gets them personalized gifts each year. EP7 shows her hanging out with, was it the Asmodeus and Beelzebub maids? Talking about boys and stuff, even though they were probably a couple years older than her at that point.

What I'm getting at is that while Jessica was probs Yasu's best friend, I kinda have my doubts about Yasu being Jessica's best friend, in turn.

3. While I agree that Kanon, if he was played at all, was probably used very very sparsely, the fact still remains that nobody overtly tries to deny him, post-86. For what these arguments are worth, the surviving Fukuin kids raise no red flags about him, Ange doesn't find him a strange element, and Tohya does have the flash memory of Kanon is that "who are these people, calling me by a strange name in the past?!" segment.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 06:00   Link #32193
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
3. While I agree that Kanon, if he was played at all, was probably used very very sparsely, the fact still remains that nobody overtly tries to deny him, post-86.
The goats in EP8 represent ideas in the future, no?

Quote:
Goat:「......Kanon is an illusion...... An illusion created by a lonely Jessica......」

Jessica: "At the school festival, I introduced Kanon-kun to everyone!! Saku, and Hina, and everyone else!! All of my friends can testify to that!! Don't make assumptions about our relationship based on your own imagination!!"
Jessica's defense is paper-thin. The other maids would make for much better witnesses, but they aren't brought up.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 08:10   Link #32194
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Ange's memories are explicitly unreliable. Battler brings this up in ep8 and I think it's a fair point; the last time she'd have probably even been there, she was five.

So the fact that Ange doesn't question Kanon doesn't mean much. It's everybody else, and especially people in the future, that raises a problem here. At best, we would have to assume Genji faked records for Kanon to suggest he was a Fukuin orphan... but then why didn't anybody who was a Fukuin graduate say "Wait, I never heard of anybody like that while I was there, and I grew up there around the same time?" Kanon simply did not exist until Yasu created him, and if Genji faked an identity for him, it couldn't also be Yasu's identity without throwing up enormous red flags to any Witch Hunter who isn't an idiot.

Which appears to be none of them.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 11:17   Link #32195
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Ange's memories are explicitly unreliable. Battler brings this up in ep8 and I think it's a fair point; the last time she'd have probably even been there, she was five.

So the fact that Ange doesn't question Kanon doesn't mean much. It's everybody else, and especially people in the future, that raises a problem here. At best, we would have to assume Genji faked records for Kanon to suggest he was a Fukuin orphan... but then why didn't anybody who was a Fukuin graduate say "Wait, I never heard of anybody like that while I was there, and I grew up there around the same time?" Kanon simply did not exist until Yasu created him, and if Genji faked an identity for him, it couldn't also be Yasu's identity without throwing up enormous red flags to any Witch Hunter who isn't an idiot.

Which appears to be none of them.
Yes, there are apparently some huge weak points in the investigations done in the future. Nobody questioned Kanon's existence for example but also nobody compared the writing in the message bottles with Shannon's.

They should have samples of it, if not at school then there are the letters George had. And, funny enough, the goats questioned Shannon's existence as well, for which proof wasn't given. The letters come in to testify Shannon's pure love for George.

The whole questioning of those characters existence though, is weird. The goats should know they existed because the police should have already checked on this. The best they could do would be to question if they were on the island that day, not if they existed.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 11:35   Link #32196
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Also, if Shannon was Yasu's servant name or servant identity in some capacity, they shouldn't have been able to question her existence because there was, in fact, such a person.

They might question her potrayal or appearance... but... the message bottles don't exactly have pictures. There are descriptions I suppose (at least of her chest), but the goats weren't attacking whether story-Shannon is wish-fulfillment, they were attacking her existence.

So like... how? And shouldn't it have been common knowledge that there was at least one servant who is unaccounted for and was probably on duty that weekend? If it wasn't "Shannon" or "Kanon," the people of the future should still be aware of it. The other servants should still be aware of it. If Yasu's name wasn't one of those two names, someone still would've pointed out that she should've been on the island at that point and that it's weird she isn't in the message bottle stories and is instead replaced by two servants none of them have ever heard of (or in Shannon's case, that retired years ago if there was a "model" Shannon servant).
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 12:58   Link #32197
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Also, if Shannon was Yasu's servant name or servant identity in some capacity, they shouldn't have been able to question her existence because there was, in fact, such a person.

They might question her potrayal or appearance... but... the message bottles don't exactly have pictures. There are descriptions I suppose (at least of her chest), but the goats weren't attacking whether story-Shannon is wish-fulfillment, they were attacking her existence.

So like... how? And shouldn't it have been common knowledge that there was at least one servant who is unaccounted for and was probably on duty that weekend? If it wasn't "Shannon" or "Kanon," the people of the future should still be aware of it. The other servants should still be aware of it. If Yasu's name wasn't one of those two names, someone still would've pointed out that she should've been on the island at that point and that it's weird she isn't in the message bottle stories and is instead replaced by two servants none of them have ever heard of (or in Shannon's case, that retired years ago if there was a "model" Shannon servant).
Exactly. It's all rather messy.
When Ange reports the police's investigations and general discoveries, she never says anything about the servants as if everything was perfectly normal.

As the police investigated on the message in the bottle there was no need to keep secret it was written by one of the servants.

As for Kanon's not-existence it should be even easier to realize he doesn't exist. Even assuming Genji bribed the Fukuin house to confirm his existence he probably didn't bribe any single orphan there. And since the whole incident became popular facts about him being a Fukuin servant should have been known to them. Why none of them ever showed up saying "Fukuin servant? we never heard of him."
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 13:13   Link #32198
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
At the very least, there should be suspicion on Shannon and/or Kanon in the future, for multiple reasons:
  • They have very sketchy backstories which would be hard to confirm in reality.
  • The handwriting of the message bottles would not match the family's, but might match someone's (and did nobody bother to check?).
  • They were around other people, and appeared at discrete times, so even if people who worked in 1986 admitted they knew of a Kanon there should be people who went to Fukuin House in 1982 who would say they'd never heard of him.
  • Their off-island presence would be suspiciously minimal.
  • Both die under fairly mysterious circumstances in Legend and Turn, including Shannon dying in a true locked room mystery in ep2.
  • Shannon and Kanon are both special servants, which would seem to draw some attention. I mean, Genji is somewhat suspicious, why not focus on those two as well?
  • Shannon has been working for about ten years, meaning she's quite well-entrenched in the setting and might be aware of family politics the way another servant wouldn't. She was also close to the cousins. Doesn't that make her role at least worthy of looking into?
  • They seem to be reasonably important characters to ep2's narrative, depending upon how much of that (if any) actually existed in the story. If it did, their prominence and relationship to Beatrice should be giant red flags.
  • One of them will basically always be unaccounted-for, except when the two are conveniently together. In front of the narrator (assuming Battler's narration matches the stories'), one always is. Even if you don't believe they're the same person as a reader of the future, isn't that a bit suspicious?
  • They are the freaking obvious, wholly viable culprits of Legend and Turn if you actually try to solve them as mystery novels.
How do we resolve this? Were the message bottle stories entirely different from every single game board we saw? If so, what are ep1 and ep2?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 14:46   Link #32199
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Perhaps most of Kanon's identifying documentation was believed to be on Rokkenjima and was blown up by the Explosion Accident? I agree that the Fukuin House circumstances are odd, but it wouldn't be too far-fetched for "Kanon's information" to be thought to be held in Kinzo's study or under Genji's possession:
"Oh, well we have some documentation that Kanon was in fact learning at Fukuin House, but most of those documents were taken by Kinzo and Genji..." ...and was then blown up, or maybe it didn't actually exist in the first place. Regardless, people think it was blown up so it might not arouse suspicion for "why these documents aren't there."

That said, that opens up a new question of why Kanon's information was treated specially...

Grasping at straws here, but it might be that since being a servant at Rokkenjima mansion was considered an "internship-like opportunity", Fukuin House would give all relevant papers to Genji.

EDIT: Here's a thought... What if everyone in 1998 has figured out that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, but that information is not relevant to the investigation of 'whodunnit'? I mean, everyone was dodging the fact that the fucking island blew up, maybe Shkanon was another thing that never really came up in Ange's investigations. I don't think any of the message bottles mentions anything about multiple personalities, so there's no direct relationship between the murders and Shkanon.
"Well, there was this fucking batshit crazy servant who pretended to be like three different people, but oh HEY Eva said that she didn't do it, today is the third Wednesday of the month on a prime-numbered month of a leap year and it's raining in Kansas so that means she's lying" or some shit

For us, we're concerned with that information only because the Metaworld's Red Truth requires Shkanon as a solution. In R-Prime, and from a "whodunnit" perspective even IN the Forgery 1998s, that stuff doesn't really matter unless they can tie it back to observable evidence.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2013-04-30 at 15:06.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-30, 15:16   Link #32200
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Perhaps most of Kanon's identifying documentation was believed to be on Rokkenjima and was blown up by the Explosion Accident? I agree that the Fukuin House circumstances are odd, but it wouldn't be too far-fetched for "Kanon's information" to be thought to be held in Kinzo's study or under Genji's possession:
"Oh, well we have some documentation that Kanon was in fact learning at Fukuin House, but most of those documents were taken by Kinzo and Genji..." ...and was then blown up, or maybe it didn't actually exist in the first place. Regardless, people think it was blown up so it might not arouse suspicion for "why these documents aren't there."

That said, that opens up a new question of why Kanon's information was treated specially...
It's implausible to believe copies of government documents would not exist somewhere else. Fukuin is not some fly-by-night organization; it is apparently a well-known charity orphanage and its graduates are considered to have a degree of prestige, especially if they get the opportunity to work for the founder's family as a servant. Any orphan they take in is gonna be documented with the government, which means stuff like their birth records or at least their legal identity are going to be on file in places Genji cannot easily check. If Genji somehow faked Kanon's existence even so, he would not have done so in a manner that can only be verified by documentation that would've only been kept on Rokkenjima. That's exactly the opposite of what he'd be trying to accomplish in creating a public persona for Kanon.
Quote:
EDIT: Here's a thought... What if everyone in 1998 has figured out that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, but that information is not relevant to the investigation of 'whodunnit'? I mean, everyone was dodging the fact that the fucking island blew up, maybe Shkanon was another thing that never really came up in Ange's investigations. I don't think any of the message bottles mentions anything about multiple personalities, so there's no direct relationship between the murders and Shkanon.
"Well, there was this fucking batshit crazy servant who pretended to be like three different people, but oh HEY Eva said that she didn't do it, today is the third Wednesday of the month on a prime-numbered month of a leap year and it's raining in Kansas so that means she's lying" or some shit

For us, we're concerned with that information only because the Metaworld's Red Truth requires Shkanon as a solution. In R-Prime, and from a "whodunnit" perspective even IN the Forgery 1998s, that stuff doesn't really matter unless they can tie it back to observable evidence.
What kind of idiot would think that's irrelevant information? It's bizarre. Why would anybody do that? If that was happening, is the person doing it mentally ill? Wouldn't a mentally ill person be a good suspect? Sure, some people would still argue Eva did it because there's a very plausible set of circumstantial points that suggest Eva as a suspect; but people will apparently reach for other things, such as Rudolf/Kyrie/Battler, yet won't consider Shkanon? Bear in mind that Rudolf and Kyrie both get their asses FT'd in both Legend and Turn. They barely have enough screentime in those stories to even be considered as suspects taking only the stories themselves into account. Meanwhile you have some weird servant thing going down, and one of them each has the easy opportunity to fake his or her death in each tale.

Remember that the lack of red in real life cuts both ways. If red does not exist in Turn, neither does Kanon died in this room, meaning the most obvious answer to the entire episode is "Kanon murdered the adults, killed Jessica when he was alone with her, then disappeared and returned to kill the others one by one." Without the red to make us doubt Kanon, he immediately jumps to the top of the suspect list... and nobody is even investigating this obvious culprit who might not even exist?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.