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Old 2013-05-13, 06:36   Link #32241
Drifloon
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Well, I don't think anyone thinks OC is an accurate account of what actually happened, given the lack of any survivors and that the whole structure of it makes it pretty clear it's a work of fiction-within-fiction.

The way I see OC is that it was meant to clarify some specifics about the how-dunnit for the gameboards, while also making the point that the how-dunnit isn't really what matters. Hence why it's said that reading OC will bring you to an understanding of two of the three layers of Beatrice's story, but the third is something you have to reach yourself.
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Old 2013-05-13, 06:45   Link #32242
Witch of Uncertainty
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, I don't think anyone thinks OC is an accurate account of what actually happened, given the lack of any survivors and that the whole structure of it makes it pretty clear it's a work of fiction-within-fiction.

The way I see OC is that it was meant to clarify some specifics about the how-dunnit for the gameboards, while also making the point that the how-dunnit isn't really what matters. Hence why it's said that reading OC will bring you to an understanding of two of the three layers of Beatrice's story, but the third is something you have to reach yourself.
This is my understanding as well. I think it just clears up how she wrote her stories, so we could understand how she got her accomplices, how she managed to create most if not all of her bizzare locked rooms, etc (Though ep 6 hints how this is done).

What is interesting is how Yasu actually kills them in Our Confession, while in ep 6, someone (Erika) Interrupted it and became the culprit herself. I take this as an additional hint - That someone actually did hijack her "Gameboard" in prime.
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Old 2013-05-13, 08:44   Link #32243
Renall
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What is interesting is how Yasu actually kills them in Our Confession, while in ep 6, someone (Erika) Interrupted it and became the culprit herself. I take this as an additional hint - That someone actually did hijack her "Gameboard" in prime.
That's actually something of an interesting point. It seems clear that OC is something akin to an "orthodox" story like in ep1-4, where it's pretty clear who the "intended" killer is (although we could perhaps question it for ep4) and the story solution reflects that. Yet in Chiru we get all these clear faked FTs and murder hijackings (by Erika in ep6, by Kyrie in ep7).

I still laugh at the toilet thing though. Would've liked to have seen Battler's reaction to that.
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Old 2013-05-13, 09:08   Link #32244
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That's actually something of an interesting point. It seems clear that OC is something akin to an "orthodox" story like in ep1-4, where it's pretty clear who the "intended" killer is (although we could perhaps question it for ep4) and the story solution reflects that. Yet in Chiru we get all these clear faked FTs and murder hijackings (by Erika in ep6, by Kyrie in ep7).

I still laugh at the toilet thing though. Would've liked to have seen Battler's reaction to that.
I always thought that OC kind of hinted at the thought process by Yasu or rather "Beatrice" regarding several stages of what happened in her scenario. It is on the one hand a story, but it also reveals her thoughts on several people in a much rawer form than what she wrote over her stories.
Technically it really is just another game like Legend or Turn, we could just call it Inferno of the Golden Witch (regarding the clear allusion to fire and explosions due to the new demon) and continue it. Actually I'd kinda like to do that...anybody willing to help?

Regarding that I'd even divide the first 4 Episodes into two sections. The first 2, Legend and Turn, are clearly geared towards being orthodox mysteries with a very clear-cut culprit in mind.
Banquet and Alliance on the other hand play a lot more with the element of chaos and the game being taken over by an outside force. In Banquet the game being handed to EVA and her taking over in a fashion that is to the distaste of even Beatrice, because she fears this will alienate Battler. In Alliance it is Kyrie's group breaking out/Jessica and George fighting back, which actually creates a large amount of chaos.

So the idea of the game being hijacked, or at least not proceeding to "Beatrice's" liking is not unlikely.
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Old 2013-05-13, 10:20   Link #32245
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Well, I've discussed at length how improbable it is that such scenarios would go as intended. Even OC makes me question things, given how she sort of just explains the situation to her chosen accomplices and invites them to participate and they're like "Yeah, that sounds totally reasonable." I get that they're desperate, but I'm not sure they're that desperate, and I find it hard to believe they'd say and do nothing to try to stab her in the back once they're out of her sight and hearing (and the nature of her accomplice system basically requires this; she cannot be present with them most of the time).

Consequently, I have to think that if she tried an actual series of murders, it would be hijacked and not to her benefit (because let's face it, she's too naive); if she tried fake murders, it could also potentially be hijacked or misinterpreted. I also think it's a very strong possibility that Battler, George, and Jessica would all be disgusted by the very idea of murdering anyone for any reason... unless one of them was the sort who would actually claim to be okay with that (George).

If we could find someone with appropriate motive (George) and imagine them handed the opportunity Erika is handed in ep6, it's possible to imagine them turning a harmless mystery game into an actual series of murders with the intention of scapegoating Yasu. After everything goes awry, she decides she's okay with being scapegoated, and Battler and Eva are both in their own way also okay with it.

Her plans only work because they're a story. The whole "nobody gets wet in the rain" thing. Even implementing a fake murder mystery game would be hard to swallow in reality; assuming only Battler wasn't in on it, I still have trouble believing people could be convincing enough that he'd never catch on.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:05   Link #32246
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To be honest umineko is filled with people I have hard time believing to be accomplice or to say "okay, murder is fine". That way OC and the take on fake-game has probably more potential than actually telling accomplice that they are involved in murder. But the thing is I don't believe any of the gameboards could have been achieved with accomplice thinking he/she is not part of a murder scenario.

Let's think about episode 2 and fake kanon. If we believe Yasu to be culprit and do the killings, I find it pretty unbelievable to even consider guy like Gohda going with the murders. Imo Gohda is one of the guys that seemed always pretty honest and straightforward despite being a dickhead. And if we believe even any part of meta and killings happening with people in the same room, it would be pretty hard to hide the fact that people in fact got killed. I don't see how scenarios like this could be achieved with joyous co-operation.

But then we can always say that Yasu had a bomb and forced people to co-operate. But still... Even if OC is very close to the truth of the gameboards and intended as a type of a deconstruction, there are factors included that don't fully convince
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:20   Link #32247
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And btw while on the topic of game being hijacked I thought I'd share my own take

Even though I like to believe even the gameboards could be explained with other culprits instead of Yasu, after OC and Ryu spreading his golden truth I must painfully agree that Yasu was at least intended to be the real culprit.

I don't know if you have discussed this here up to what point, but I surely believe that in the Rokkenjima-prime (or what you want to call it) Yasu wasn't a culprit and game was hijacked by probably Kyrie/Rudolf as we have some evidence (like the relationship of Ange and Eva). Wouldn't this mean that Yasu never was culprit and the entire umineko would be a meta-story about heart of Yasu? So should the gameboards be treated as metaphorical pieces, maybe explaining them as hints towards the causality behind the killings and gold, or even as fantasies made by Yasu as a way to release anger like Maria in episode 4? So basically it would mean that gameboards could be explained with pretty much any culprit without changing the truth and thus making even searching a true culprit a waste of time?

I know I am probably taking this too far, but wouldn't this mean that instead of discussing the killer we should discuss whether Yasu in real world is twisted psycho or a pure maiden seeking a way to escape from the island?
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:32   Link #32248
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The problem I always had with "well she can threaten people with the bomb" is like... really? Who is going to even believe that story? It's an empty threat and any sane person is going to call her bluff and force her to prove it. And if she does prove it, she has to take people down into the tunnels... at which point you tackle her, bind her hands, and force her to lead you as far away from the explosives as possible (or just show you how to disarm it, but even then you run the hell away just in case).

And as you said, even if the goal is "I'll pay off your debts," you gotta think long and hard about this whole "murder my whole family" thing before you decide that (1) she's telling you the truth and won't murder you as well (which she will do, at least in story form), and (2) you won't get caught afterward, because it's not completely suspicious as hell if your family and your family alone just happens to survive a giant explosion or anything.

Basically for this to have been her plan and for the plan to have actually even come close to working out in reality, everyone would have to be incredibly stupid. Given how clever the adults are repeatedly shown to be, I'm not buying that. Of course in her stories she can make people believe anything she wants by just boiling them down to their character traits ("Natsuhi is proud, so she'll go along with it to preserve her family's honor"). But in reality, Yasu's got a dislocated shoulder and a messed up wig after Krauss body checks her and Kyrie forces her to disarm the bomb at gunpoint.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:41   Link #32249
Witch of Uncertainty
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
Let's think about episode 2 and fake kanon. If we believe Yasu to be culprit and do the killings, I find it pretty unbelievable to even consider guy like Gohda going with the murders. Imo Gohda is one of the guys that seemed always pretty honest and straightforward despite being a dickhead. And if we believe even any part of meta and killings happening with people in the same room, it would be pretty hard to hide the fact that people in fact got killed. I don't see how scenarios like this could be achieved with joyous co-operation.
What if he believed it to be fake until the very end? Stupid goats (mentioned earlier here) explains really well how some/many/all of the murders (could have) happened.
I actually believe that most of them believed it was a fake murder game in the story.
I mean, it's clear the the twilights with Kumasawa and Nanjo were fake during the "fake Kanon" scene, but they were eventually killed. Probably by Genji while Yasu was with George and the Magical Chef.

The only ones who knew what was going on was Yasu, Genji (Who is stupid loyal and doesn't care what happens with him, it seems) and Nanjo, who inspects the bodies. Nanjo is a coward.

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I know I am probably taking this too far, but wouldn't this mean that instead of discussing the killer we should discuss whether Yasu in real world is twisted psycho or a pure maiden seeking a way to escape from the island?
I think Yasu is a Twisted Maiden.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:42   Link #32250
Dormin
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Pretty much what renall said

I think it would be possible to force a person to do something at gunpoint. I myself believe still that ep 4 and most of the stunning magical phone-calls could be explained with straightforward gunpoint and a order from the culprit.

But in OC Yasu showed Natsuhi and Krauss the bomb before any actual murders happened. I don't know how much time passed between this moment and the actual killings, but I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be any kind of protest against one person and one gun that might have a bomb under the mansion. For culprit to succeed in committing the murders with guarantees of a play-scenario or a threat of detonating the bomb we would need a mansion full of braindead people.

Of course we have people like nanjo, that iirc was shown to accept bribes in the flashbacks, but then again there are many people that I couldn't see as accomplices even if threatened in a way Ryu want's us to believe
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:49   Link #32251
Witch of Uncertainty
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Well, to be honest, Kyrie/Rudolf, and probably Eva were never "invited" down there, and they are the only real fighters (well, maybe not rudolf, but..). If she invited them down (Krauss and Natsuhi), they would probably first be amazed by all the gold, and then realizing that Yasu is pointing a gun at them, explaining how things will work out.
She could also threaten with the fact that she has "more people" on her side. We know for a fact that Genji would do anything for her.

But then again, this is the Story by Yasu. I very much doubt that she threatened them with the bomb in reality. No, In prime, I think she offered the gold, and asked them for their cooperation for a fake-murder game. And the something went wrong.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:53   Link #32252
Renall
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The only ones who knew what was going on was Yasu, Genji (Who is stupid loyal and doesn't care what happens with him, it seems) and Nanjo, who inspects the bodies. Nanjo is a coward.
Genji's loyalty is completely implausible though, especially in ep1-2. He's literally rewritten into a robot and I cannot possibly believe that his "loyalty" was so extreme that the idea of "blow up the island when the entire family is there, including us" is what Kinzo would've wanted for his children... any of his children.

But it's a story, so whatever, and he doesn't exactly behave that way after that point.
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Of course we have people like nanjo, that iirc was shown to accept bribes in the flashbacks, but then again there are many people that I couldn't see as accomplices even if threatened in a way Ryu want's us to believe
The thing is, if you do trust the way people are portrayed and "have love," it's impossible to believe in a scenario like the ep7 Tea Party. Yet if you "have love" for Yasu, it's hard for me to believe that she'd do something either (because I honestly do think she couldn't bring herself to do "in reality" what she may have thought she could do in stories, even if she planned it initially). So if I don't buy the adults and I don't buy her, who is left exactly?
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:57   Link #32253
Witch of Uncertainty
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Well, very few people have love for George.
He did it. Someone (Can't remember who, but it was here) even proved that he stole candy from Hideyoshi.
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Old 2013-05-13, 14:59   Link #32254
Dormin
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On the topic of brainless genji, I understand there are heavy implications claiming him to be very loyal towards the master, but there has always been one hole that I thought could be not avoided while discussing genji as a character.

We know that his relationship with kinzo was very loyal. But nowhere I saw genji as mere servant or "furniture". When discussing kinzo with others, genji (maybe in chapter 1 or something) genji openly admits that kinzo was bit crazy. In chapter 3 genji disobeys beatrice and offers shannon and kanon "death" out of mercy. Genji was never blind or a machine.

Let's think about Yasu: when s/he fell off the cliff genji saved her without order from anyone. No one even knew the child was alive. The reason why genji hid the existence of Yasu was, I think clearly stated in the story, that he was afraid of possible incest occurring with kinzo. Doesn't this mean that he clearly had opinion that incest was bad and tried to prevent it? Even if he is described as loyal furniture, having this strong opinion about incest somehow feels like accepting murders would be out of the character for him. How could he accept murders but not incest?
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:04   Link #32255
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The thing is, if you do trust the way people are portrayed and "have love," it's impossible to believe in a scenario like the ep7 Tea Party. Yet if you "have love" for Yasu, it's hard for me to believe that she'd do something either (because I honestly do think she couldn't bring herself to do "in reality" what she may have thought she could do in stories, even if she planned it initially). So if I don't buy the adults and I don't buy her, who is left exactly?
You can buy Kyrie. Always buy Kyrie.

No no, I am serious here. I don't know if any of you have played higurashi and try not to spoil, but the antagonist is written very similar to kyrie. As when they cries have pretty tender lessons about humanity, the higurashi take on things is "friendship is very good thing and people are nice", to put it bluntly. To get the story working there still needs to be an antagonist force, and in umineko kyrie was pretty much wrote as a cold bitch, even though she was a pure maiden at heart at some point of her twisted life, and capable of murder. I think this kind of character writing is close to Ryu's heart

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Well, very few people have love for George.
He did it. Someone (Can't remember who, but it was here) even proved that he stole candy from Hideyoshi.
George is fat. I like your logic
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:13   Link #32256
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The problem with it being Kyrie is that she's way too intelligent for it. She has no verification for the cash card being worth anything, she has no means of converting the gold into spendable cash, and there's no way she can kill everyone and get away with it.

Also EP7 Tea Party is bullshit, Kyrie spoiled Ange rotten, there's no way she didn't love her.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:26   Link #32257
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Regarding the plausibility of the bomb threat...
First of all, wasn't Yasu said to be equipped with a rifle in OC when confronting Krauss/Natsuhi? I don't remember exactly, but it wouldn't be too hard to assume that they seriously thought their lives were in danger, and any negative response would be BLAM dead.

Secondly, I agree that they should have been smarter about the actual existence of the bomb, but just imagine bomb threats in general: if somebody said there was a bomb in a school, they would take it seriously. If there was believed to be a bomb in an airport, people would lose their shit. A lot of the time these are false positives, but you just can't risk that. Natsuhi and Krauss very well could have asked her to prove it, but they might feel that anything that could upset her might blow up the island. Furthermore, WE know how the bomb mechanism works, but they don't: for all Krauss and Natsuhi know, Yasu could have a trigger in her pocket which could detonate the entire island. Negotiating with terrorists is way harder than it seems, due to panic/lack of composure and vagueness of the situation.

They have the immediate threat to them (the gun) and the likely threat to Jessica (the bomb) so they don't really have much room to argue. Sure, they could fight with her, but is it worth risking the "detonator in her pocket" going off?
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:27   Link #32258
Dormin
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The problem with it being Kyrie is that she's way too intelligent for it. She has no verification for the cash card being worth anything, she has no means of converting the gold into spendable cash, and there's no way she can kill everyone and get away with it.

Also EP7 Tea Party is bullshit, Kyrie spoiled Ange rotten, there's no way she didn't love her.
I think the funniest thing in umineko is the fact while it tries to be a deconstruction of the detective genre, we can totally skip "real motives" by the causality: anyone that finds the gold has a motive to do the killings. Of course, there are exceptions, like the cousins that didn't seem to be so keen to grab money, but it is clearly written in a way people like kyrie, rudolf, rosa, eva, krauss and maybe even natsuhi with some shit about "preserving the family honor" could pass as a culprit.

Therefore I don't know if Ryu even considered kyrie to be "too smart" to do the killings. The prime world is about loath and hate and DESIRE. For me the killing for gold at least seems plausible motive, totally making more sense than "muh sad life and eternal love catbox". I don't think many people would even consider the problem of converting the gold while handed the opportunity and the loaded gun. Kyrie is emotional woman, up to some degree. Cold and calculative yes, but I wouldn't find it too far-fetched to think she was willing to kill only to get rid of battler.

And about positive view towards kyrie, she said ange was just a tool. If you consider that to be false truth and want to believe in lovable kyrie, then, I guess you have more love than I do.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:33   Link #32259
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And about positive view towards kyrie, she said ange was just a tool. If you consider that to be false truth and want to believe in lovable kyrie, then, I guess you have more love than I do.
The better question is, why wouldn't you consider that false truth? Bern pretty much stated in EP8 that that Fragment was just a way to prepare Ange for the worst, and openly admitted her red about it being the truth was just a wordplay trick. I don't see any reason to take EP7's tea party as having any truth in at all, to be honest - it's the worst kind of story, completely lacking in love. I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree with me on that.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:34   Link #32260
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Well, I'm not quite sure about that part.
Frankly, I want Kyrie to be a culprit, because I feel it would fit her, and it would make so much sense regarding Eva/Ange.
But taking the whole ep 7 tea party as fact is hard for me. Especially considering how Kyrie spent 18 years being jealous, and towards the end, willing to kill for Rudolf, and when her husband is killed, she's like "K lol".
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