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Old 2013-05-13, 15:40   Link #32261
Dormin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
The better question is, why wouldn't you consider that false truth? Bern pretty much stated in EP8 that that Fragment was just a way to prepare Ange for the worst, and openly admitted her red about it being the truth was just a wordplay trick. I don't see any reason to take EP7's tea party as having any truth in at all, to be honest - it's the worst kind of story, completely lacking in love. I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree with me on that.
It probably is, no doubt. Kyrie was unbelievable nasty, and the whole thing seemed like a "rule of cool" people throwing witty one liners and all that. As Drifloon stated above, ep 7 kyrie was ready to abandon rudolf that was pretty much her driving force. But the thing is, evidence of kyrie being the true culprit make sense. Like, lots of sense. And isn't it like confirmed by Ryu? I don't exactly remember what interview though, but didn't he say while being asked about "the single truth" something like "I thought it was pretty obvious, and the hints are in the relationship of eva and ange". If you want I can try to dig it up from somewhere.

That said I don't consider 7 tea party to be the "actual truth", but I believe things happened somewhat similar.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:42   Link #32262
Drifloon
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I remember that quote, and I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding it. He's never said anything about Kyrie being the culprit specifically; he said that it's "possible to reason" about the truth based on things like Eva and Ange's relationship, but he's also said repeatedly that he chose not to reveal the truth on purpose. It seems that he enjoys hearing people's reasoning and doesn't want to limit that by forcing an answer on them if at all possible.

(Also, it wasn't me who said that about Rudolf; that was Witch of Uncertainty's comment, though of course I agree with it~)
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:43   Link #32263
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I think of the EP7 Tea Party as an outline for Rokkenjima Prime. It didn't have to be Rudolf/Kyrie, it could have been Eva/Hideyoshi or even Krauss/Natsuhi who hijacked the game. SOME people just need to work together to solve the epitaph (maybe), find the gold and Beatrice, people die, the people who are not the culprit and reach the Golden Land are shot at, and everyone except Eva is blown up. It's just in that particular situation, Kyrie/Rudolf is more likely because they are the only ones with working knowledge of rifles. However, I really don't think Kyrie is as vindictive as she appears. THAT, I think, is Bernkastel's true "lie".

I like to think that Kyrie is the culprit of R-Prime because of the Eva/Ange dynamics, but if we're studying the EP7 Tea Party, we have an outline for a set of stories that deviates from Beatrice's stories. That outline is closer to R-Prime than EP1/2.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:50   Link #32264
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I like to think that Kyrie is the culprit of R-Prime because of the Eva/Ange dynamics, but if we're studying the EP7 Tea Party, we have an outline for a set of stories that deviates from Beatrice's stories. That outline is closer to R-Prime than EP1/2.
Pretty much this for me too. I think people misunderstood that I like kyrie-culprit because wanting to believe in tea party, not the evidence shown.

Also

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
He's never said anything about Kyrie being the culprit specifically; he said that it's "possible to reason" about the truth based on things like Eva and Ange's relationship, but he's also said repeatedly that he chose not to reveal the truth on purpose.
I understand Ryu likes people to make theories, but to me that is pretty much a statement on kyrie-culprit. Of course, I am interpretating it in a way that supports my theory, and I love hearing theories of others, but seriously now guys.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:55   Link #32265
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Well what I referred to a few pages back about arc 7 tea party is that while OC is concerned with the mystery, tea party isn't even doing that.

In a prime world, I sorta doubt murders happened slowly with "witch makeup" as we see in the first few arcs.

Also I've been thinking back about the references to Battler falling/fear of falling as soon as arc 1... don't they hint at Battler's final fate as we we told in arc 8 (and a few other things like how he really hates his name being told right away almost)?

If I assume that's the case it seems to make certain that arc 1 dates from after "prime" and to me puts in question if the author is really whom we thought so far.
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Old 2013-05-13, 15:57   Link #32266
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Let's think about Yasu: when s/he fell off the cliff genji saved her without order from anyone. No one even knew the child was alive. The reason why genji hid the existence of Yasu was, I think clearly stated in the story, that he was afraid of possible incest occurring with kinzo. Doesn't this mean that he clearly had opinion that incest was bad and tried to prevent it? Even if he is described as loyal furniture, having this strong opinion about incest somehow feels like accepting murders would be out of the character for him. How could he accept murders but not incest?
And why would he go and reintroduce said person to Kinzo, in the same damn dress that got him so hot and bothered for his other daughter? Like... seriously dude? What was the point of protecting him/her again?
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Regarding the plausibility of the bomb threat...
First of all, wasn't Yasu said to be equipped with a rifle in OC when confronting Krauss/Natsuhi? I don't remember exactly, but it wouldn't be too hard to assume that they seriously thought their lives were in danger, and any negative response would be BLAM dead.
Yasu can't, by her own plans, be with them every waking moment. The instant she is out of sight and out of mind (and remember, they probably know about Shkanon if they're brought into the loop), they go "Oh by the way I've been coerced by Shannon, who it turns out is absolutely batshit insane. All of our lives are in danger, we need to get the hell out of here, run into the forest, and just don't stop running until we're out of island."
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I think the funniest thing in umineko is the fact while it tries to be a deconstruction of the detective genre, we can totally skip "real motives" by the causality: anyone that finds the gold has a motive to do the killings. Of course, there are exceptions, like the cousins that didn't seem to be so keen to grab money, but it is clearly written in a way people like kyrie, rudolf, rosa, eva, krauss and maybe even natsuhi with some shit about "preserving the family honor" could pass as a culprit.
He outright states multiple times that money is a lame and weak thing, and that there's much stronger magic. He also has the adults repeatedly demonstrate throughout the fantasy scenes that there are things more important to them than money or even pride.

The only time he suggests otherwise is a very insidious passage in the ep7 Tea Party where he compares the gold to magic... after outright contradicting this in everything that leads up to it. And the Tea Party is Bern-guided assholery. I mean, you do the math.
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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
Well, I'm not quite sure about that part.
Frankly, I want Kyrie to be a culprit, because I feel it would fit her, and it would make so much sense regarding Eva/Ange.
But taking the whole ep 7 tea party as fact is hard for me. Especially considering how Kyrie spent 18 years being jealous, and towards the end, willing to kill for Rudolf, and when her husband is killed, she's like "K lol".
That's the problem: Kyrie spent 12 years stewing in jealousy before even considering doing something regrettable. She is not a spontaneous killer. She is a cautious and vindicitive premeditator, and there's nothing to suggest she premeditated the crime as it appears to have happened (if nothing else, she could not have accounted for the explosion).
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I like to think that Kyrie is the culprit of R-Prime because of the Eva/Ange dynamics, but if we're studying the EP7 Tea Party, we have an outline for a set of stories that deviates from Beatrice's stories. That outline is closer to R-Prime than EP1/2.
  • Eva has some modest reason to cover for Kyrie.
  • Battler has little to no reason to cover for Kyrie.
  • Yasu has absolutely no reason to cover for Kyrie.
The only people for which this triangle works are probably Battler or George. Yasu wouldn't care that much about covering for the parents for Ange's sake. Battler and Eva probably wouldn't care about families outside their own or Ange's, but Battler probably would care about one of his cousins.

Likewise Battler and Yasu might cover for Yasu or another servant, but Eva has absolutely no reason to do so.

If there was a killer I'm 99% sure it was George, because it makes the absolute most sense of Eva's treatment of Ange after the fact. Mere responsibility to hide the truth from Ange would not lead their relationship to be that toxic. Constantly being reminded that she must choose between the honor of her murderer son or having the daughter she always wanted but can never get without telling her the truth, on the other hand, makes everything about Eva's 1998 psychology make sense to me.

Plus it would make more sense of why Ange could be accepting of it. If it was exactly what she was expecting out of it, why would she be able to get over it eventually?

That or it's an accident, but then I can't make sense of Eva.
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Old 2013-05-13, 16:06   Link #32267
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
  • Eva has some modest reason to cover for Kyrie.
  • Battler has little to no reason to cover for Kyrie.
  • Yasu has absolutely no reason to cover for Kyrie.
The only people for which this triangle works are probably Battler or George. Yasu wouldn't care that much about covering for the parents for Ange's sake. Battler and Eva probably wouldn't care about families outside their own or Ange's, but Battler probably would care about one of his cousins.

Likewise Battler and Yasu might cover for Yasu or another servant, but Eva has absolutely no reason to do so.
Do you mean "covering" as far as 1998 goes, or while the events are happening in 1986? Because nobody has to cover for anybody as long as Eva kills the culprit and she takes the survivors to Kuwadorian. Eva might have even told Battler "it was Kyrie" but hey, he forgets everything anyway.

Looking at 1998...
If we look at Eva, Kyrie is one of the most likely suspects since she would be hiding everything to protect Ange.
Battler might have decided to turn Kyrie in, but he was amnesia'd. And I don't recall if Tohya actually remembers everything in scenes we are shown.
Yasu is probably dead if Ikuko != Yasu, otherwise she doesn't give a shit since all she wants to do is play a game with Battler... or something... ok yeah if Yasu's alive then it doesn't make sense, but if Yasu == Ikuko, well, Yasu's a total and complete dick, anyway so...

Unless I'm misunderstanding?
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Old 2013-05-13, 16:10   Link #32268
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Renall that was one hell of a long comment

George being the culprit could work out too, I guess. But about the toxicity of the relationship, I can totally see it happening with kyrie-culprit. For eva, ange was everything that george could not be after dying. She was a replacement. She was a child of the killer. She symbolized everything that eva hated: kyrie and the sadness of letting the title of "head" go to someone else than george. Add ange blaming eva to be the real culprit into equation and we pretty much have the toxic relationship described. Ange felt eva was a bitch as she never even wanted to consider the change that the attitude eva had towards her was the result of eva having her entire life crushed and forced to take care of the child of the killer.

Now someone is probably going to point out: "why eva never told the truth to ange/media" but what ever might have happened on the island it is possible that in order to survive eva had to do some really nasty shit that can't bare the daylight.

And about genji dressing yasu as beatrice, I literally didn't even remember this part and I must say that is some hard evidence against my view of genji. I guess we could try to explain that as genji knowing kinzo will die soon and wanting to introduce them, but right now that feels also very wrong
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Old 2013-05-13, 16:11   Link #32269
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Another thing:
Mostly everything related to Ange, Battler's ascension into "suddenly knowing everything" and GaapBeato playing the role of a witch for "And then there were none" with Yasu...

These seems to imply becoming a witch/a golden witch/a gamemaster isn't something that has "knowing the truth" as a requirement.


Probably a Battler culprit would fit most of Renall's requirements as much as a George one btw if not more.
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Old 2013-05-13, 16:12   Link #32270
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I disagree a bit with you, Renall.
I think both Eva and Battler would cover for Kyrie. Not for Kyrie's sake, perhaps, but for Ange's. I think their relationship would have gotten that toxic even if she was covering for Kyrie. I mean, Eva is pretty broken.

But you bring up very good points about George. He is also ranked high on my "probable culprits", mostly because of ep 4 and how much I dislike him, generally.
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Old 2013-05-13, 16:14   Link #32271
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You have to also look at the attitude of the meta-characters in ep8.
  • All of the adults, including Kyrie, want Eva to protect Ange in the future. The cousins are absent from this so we never find out their intentions as such. But it's a bit odd to have Kyrie being so nice in a scene that Ange doesn't even see.
  • Both Battler and Beatrice have a desire to tell Ange the truth but also a desire to conceal it. If their motive isn't selfish (and thus understandable, even if wrong), then they're just being patronizing assholes to Ange. If it is selfish (because telling the truth hurts them personally), then everyone is at fault and failing to understand what is important to the other side (Battler/Beatrice want to protect people's memory because they feel at fault for what happened, Ange wants closure).
  • Ange's reaction to the truth is ultimately not what I would've thought it would be were Battler, her parents, or Eva the culprit.
  • Eva is seriously a psychological wreck and I don't think she'd go that far just because of Kyrie. If Ange were a toxic bitch, why wouldn't she in a moment of Anger blurt out that her mom did everything? She took the truth to her grave, for crying out loud. You don't do that for an in-law who coincidentally murdered everyone, but you might do it for your own son.
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Old 2013-05-13, 16:39   Link #32272
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Few things.
1. Yeah, as everyone has stated, I think OC was the show us the construction of a game board, and need not have any bearing on reality, or Prime, or what have you. This is just in response to UsagiTenpura suggesting that EP7 TP was a naked scenario, which I agree with, though that still need not reflect the Truth.

2. Our Confessions showed Yasu lying to , like, all her accomplices. Only Nanjo is inexplicably loyal in that scenario (I mean, we have to assume he was checking bodies), and to be fair ... ... Kratsuhi is pretty dumb, and unlike the other adults, also have Kinzo's death and massive embezzlement hanging over their heads

3. For all that people have problems accepting a Yasu-culprit, I've never been fond of the "someone hijacked the game" train of thought, either. I mean, an inheritance plot is certainly IN THERE, but the way the ranking system seems to work (a theme that was NEVER developed beyond "our seating arrangements at dinner sure are convenient for conversation"), actual murder is pretty much to nobody's actual benefit, ever. Well, I can imagine a scenario where it could be, but they're all moot in face of the very high number of deaths actually following the epitaph would call for. I'unno, just me.

4. Pretty sure Genji was more concerned with possible sexual assault than the idea of possible incest.
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Old 2013-05-13, 16:46   Link #32273
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From my point of view the entire ep 8 was the lesson of umineko: it really doesn't matter who the culprit is as the fact is that people did die. Therefore searching for the vicious sides of people is terrible and "forgets the heart". Everyone is described as grade-A nice guy in ep 8. Even goddamn kinzo. Saying it is strange for kyrie to act nice in an episode that makes a point of being nice is not even an argument. The reason the truth is never revealed is because Ryu, and in universe because searching for a culprit means searching for the negative sides of people aka going against the lesson of umineko.

Eva took the truth to her grave. That is totally understandable even if we happen think kyrie as a culprit:

First, eva is not very nice person. While we have many indicators that she in fact had some understandment and love towards ange, keeping the truth hidden was a weapon when the relationship went toxic. While I agree with you about the part "eva might accidentally reveal the truth while being angered", you must understand what the truth meant for eva: "Your mother was the culprit hahaha I also probably did some of the killings and detonated the entire island to conceal my part in everything hahaha I am also a murderer."

No way eva is going to jail for ange and her wanting to know the truth. Eva is not stupid. She is clever and sometimes selfish bitch. She knows that if she had ANY part in the whole mess revealing ANYTHING is a shitty call. If I were her in those circumstances I'd take the truth into grave with me
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Old 2013-05-13, 17:02   Link #32274
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From my point of view the entire ep 8 was the lesson of umineko: it really doesn't matter who the culprit is as the fact is that people did die. Therefore searching for the vicious sides of people is terrible and "forgets the heart". Everyone is described as grade-A nice guy in ep 8. Even goddamn kinzo. Saying it is strange for kyrie to act nice in an episode that makes a point of being nice is not even an argument. The reason the truth is never revealed is because Ryu, and in universe because searching for a culprit means searching for the negative sides of people aka going against the lesson of umineko.
There's two problems with that:
  • If there was indeed a crime, it's not fair to the innocent to say "you should look at the good sides of everybody!" when one of those people is a mass murderer. There's a big difference between "set aside that he was a bit of a sleazeball, he was kind and loyal to his children" and "ignore that he killed all the other characters, he wasn't so bad!"
  • Ange does not see the scene I am talking about. So there's no reason for it to be there unless it's a lie being told to nobody. Why would Ryukishi do this?
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Old 2013-05-13, 17:15   Link #32275
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Oh, it has been so long since I actually discussed umineko. This is the best part of the entire game, sharing theories and arguing with people. So let's go renall.

I agree murder is bad. But thinking back the game, the point of ep 7 tea party is to show even if we achieve good ending, everyone will still die. To me, that is one of the biggest lessons of umineko and an example of the causality: no matter what happens, people die. No matter who the culprit is, people die. Therefore searching for the culprit is a waste of time. It really doesn't matter what happened on the island, people died. Using this method of thinking and the principle of quantum physical worldview, there are countless of fragments/realities where everyone was the culprit. That's what ep 8 is all about. It is a story orchestrated by battler, that has reached the same conclusion: there is no need to name a single culprit and carry hatred, because things happen the way they happen. Umineko is about love. Love towards people. It is about understanding the goodness in humanity. That is the lesson. That is what the story is all about.

Even if we say that Kyrie probably was the true culprit, for the people inside the catbox it really doesn't matter. People died. Someone was the culprit. There are scenarios where culprit was someone else. Battler forgave everyone. Even yasu, that if we listen to Ryu even for a little bit, is supposed to be the canon explanation.

Maybe ange doesn't see people being happy all the time. Does that mean kyrie should act like a culprit when nobody is looking? Episode 8 is about love. It is built in the way ange/reader gets the lesson: the scenes where people are nice do not even include any kind of attempt to search for the culprit. They just are, with the attempt to show that every character in the story is indeed human.
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Old 2013-05-13, 19:18   Link #32276
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I interpreted it a little differently.

Ange spent most of her conscious life searching for an explanation. She was miserable and obsessive; hell, she even said that "her life ended when she found the truth." After Eva dies, there is no living person who could have committed the murders (barring Battler... probably?). Yet, she still slaves over finding this "truth" like it means something, but it really doesn't: will it make her feel better? Will it put somebody into custody? No and no.

Ange needs to accept that the truth will NOT make her happy, and will NOT serve any practical purpose besides to satisfy her curiosity and maybe give her a scapegoat. In fact, it's doing the exact opposite: it's turning her into a hateful person. The point of EP8 was for Ange to stop looking into the past and search for this "culprit" because to be honest, it doesn't really matter when everybody is dead. She can't turn anybody in to the authorities ("Oh Gohda did it, great, let's arrest- oh wait"). All she MIGHT get is "satisfaction" but look how THAT turned out (Eva's diary). This search is tearing her apart. She needs to move on before it kills her.

That was my take on it.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying that speculation is useless: it's not. The Witch Hunters have a large gathering of people that are interested in the truth. But it's a hobby to them, something they enjoy doing. It's not hurting them. Ange, on the other hand, is very clearly negatively affected by her quest, and since it won't DO anything (on the contrary, it might "end her life") she should stop and try to look forward.
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Old 2013-05-13, 19:26   Link #32277
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But it's other people concealing the truth that is hurting her. The search only exists because people are hiding things. That argument, while sentimental, is simply stupid; the entire reason Ange is in pain is because of the actions of other people to prevent her from knowing. The truth in this equation is an entirely emotionally-neutral issue; what's actually killing her is the pursuit of something that other people have conspired to hide. She is entirely justified in being upset by this.
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Old 2013-05-13, 19:35   Link #32278
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But it's other people concealing the truth that is hurting her. The search only exists because people are hiding things. That argument, while sentimental, is simply stupid; the entire reason Ange is in pain is because of the actions of other people to prevent her from knowing. The truth in this equation is an entirely emotionally-neutral issue; what's actually killing her is the pursuit of something that other people have conspired to hide. She is entirely justified in being upset by this.
Who's hiding the truth from her? Eva? She's dead. The point is that AFTER Eva dies, there is nothing Ange can do to arrive at a solution with reasonable confidence and despite this, she makes it her life's goal to find the "answer" and searches anyway. There is no way to verify her answer and nothing GOOD actually comes from it.
I mean yeah, she can still be mad at Eva, but she reads her diary and completely rejects its contents. There's something else at work besides the fact that she's angry that people are lying to her. She WANTS a reason to hate Eva or whatever. But what's the point, really?

Look at the Trick Ending versus the Magic Ending. The "Bad End" has her murdering people in an outrageous plot to uncover the truth no matter what, if I remember (okay, I guess Amakusa had it coming). What happens in the Magic Ending? She moves on and writes children's literature. She DOESN'T jump off the skyscraper. She resigns from the Ushiromiya Group and 'disappears'. She's moved on.

Looking at these two conclusions, I'm inclined to believe that this is one of the central conflicts in Ange's story: linger on the past and die, or move on and live?
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Old 2013-05-13, 19:44   Link #32279
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It's other people that put her in that situation. If your argument is that giving up is the only way out of that, it doesn't change that it wasn't right for her to be put in that situation and it's perfectly acceptable for her to be angry about it. Eva might as well have murdered her family for all the good she did for her in hiding what actually did happen. That message is equally as viable as the false dichotomy that ep8 sets up, and it's vastly more insidious.
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Old 2013-05-13, 19:51   Link #32280
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It's other people that put her in that situation. If your argument is that giving up is the only way out of that, it doesn't change that it wasn't right for her to be put in that situation and it's perfectly acceptable for her to be angry about it. Eva might as well have murdered her family for all the good she did for her in hiding what actually did happen. That message is equally as viable as the false dichotomy that ep8 sets up, and it's vastly more insidious.
Ange has a right to be angry about the situation others put her in, yes. That's not the point I'm addressing: it's about her future. What is Ange going to do after Eva dies? She'll search and search and search for something that cannot be verified or proven and possibly drive herself mad, or, as shown in the VN, she'll die.

Under most other circumstances, what I'm saying isn't correct: for instance, if the culprit still poses a threat to other human beings then yes you need to make sure that no further incidents will happen. But that can't happen here.

What is the point of searching for the answer for Ange? Is it really worth DYING over? She doesn't need to abandon the search entirely, I guess, but she's become so fixated on it that she's lost sight of the important things, namely living.
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