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Old 2009-11-13, 20:31   Link #3221
Ttak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
OR maybe Kanon never appeared and they just lied to Rosa about the entire thing
Makes sense , there's no red truth regarding the appearance of Kanon to the servants at that time
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Old 2009-11-13, 20:33   Link #3222
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Really? I thought Matsuri's ending WAS somewhat canon. Learn something new etc.



Well, he did already do something similar with Ep5, so...
Exactly. Which is why he better reverse this.
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Old 2009-11-13, 20:44   Link #3223
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
Exactly. Which is why he better reverse this.
A recent interview suggested that he's going to, but... I've come to the realization that nothing Ryukishi says in those interviews is ever in red, so...
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Old 2009-11-13, 21:05   Link #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Bern was always untrustworthy. She clearly kept saying she was evil and cruel before the EP 4 troll.

Spoiler for EP 5:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Wouldn't this make her MORE trustworthy, if she's perfectly honest about how horrible she is?

Yeah, I already knew about her role in EP5. But like said above, she was always open and honest about it. In the EP1 Tea Party she claimed to be the cruelest witch... I don't think that we can't trust what she says. We just have to take what she says with a large grain of salt and think it through a bit.
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Old 2009-11-13, 23:54   Link #3225
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Bern and Lambda don't tell outright lies most of the time; Bern twists the truth constantly though, and is very untrustworthy. Lambda is just brutally honest, which is sort of funny; has she ever actually said something that isn't true? She hasn't been terribly HELPFUL, but she seems bizarrely frank.
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Old 2009-11-14, 00:21   Link #3226
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So I think I may be on to something

Ok, I was thinking about this while in AP Bio talking about genetics:

spoiler tags for huge theory, but warning, my ideas are not fully developed yet!

Spoiler for polydactyly,kinzo:
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Old 2009-11-14, 01:56   Link #3227
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Basically I posit Kumasawa as the one who has been taking care of cliff-falling Beatrice from her birth. She probably told her about different tales (the big-wolves in the forest) and educated her, since she was the only female servant to have been working from 1952-1968. As meta-Beatrice comprised cliff-falling Beatrice as well, that's why Kumasawa was someone like Virgilia to her.

Though Kumasawa did not know about Real-Beatrice (Maria's master) in my hypothesis.

What do you think?

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-14 at 02:12.
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Old 2009-11-14, 02:05   Link #3228
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Though, if that were the case...none of the family should have been surprised by that...since it is likely that half or more of the parents would also have that feature...genetically....unless of course...all his children have recessive genes, or the mother's dominate genes took over.


As for the other theory....who signed Maria's book? There are two signatures that aren't Maria's: Beatrice and Virgilia's (spelled incorrectly, but whatever).
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Old 2009-11-14, 02:18   Link #3229
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Though, if that were the case...none of the family should have been surprised by that...since it is likely that half or more of the parents would also have that feature...genetically....unless of course...all his children have recessive genes, or the mother's dominate genes took over.


As for the other theory....who signed Maria's book? There are two signatures that aren't Maria's: Beatrice and Virgilia's (spelled incorrectly, but whatever).
From the real world perspective, it has only been shown Beatrice's writing and Signature. Was there a Virgilia's one?

Afterall, Sakutarou was created by Maria. The magical scene showed that Beatrice and Virgilia made a human body for Sakutarou. In reality, a human body Sakutarou could not have existed at all. What was actually done in reality might be that Maria showing Sakutarou to real Beatrice and then real Beatrice urged Maria to imagine a human body for Sakutarou.
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Old 2009-11-14, 02:46   Link #3230
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
From the real world perspective, it has only been shown Beatrice's writing and Signature. Was there a Virgilia's one?

Afterall, Sakutarou was created by Maria. The magical scene showed that Beatrice and Virgilia made a human body for Sakutarou. In reality, a human body Sakutarou could not have existed at all. What was actually done in reality might be that Maria showing Sakutarou to real Beatrice and then real Beatrice urged Maria to imagine a human body for Sakutarou.
So are you saying that Virgilia was not really involved and Beatrice signed for her or are you saying that the person who represents Beatrice in the real world is the same person that represents Virgilia?

I don't like that theory because Bernkastel said that Beatrice is a personification of the rules of that world. Virgilia is more like helping Battler understand those rules.
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Old 2009-11-14, 05:13   Link #3231
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Bern and Lambda don't tell outright lies most of the time; Bern twists the truth constantly though, and is very untrustworthy. Lambda is just brutally honest, which is sort of funny; has she ever actually said something that isn't true? She hasn't been terribly HELPFUL, but she seems bizarrely frank.
It might be part of the Certainty thing... she talks in absolutes, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I don't like that theory because Bernkastel said that Beatrice is a personification of the rules of that world. Virgilia is more like helping Battler understand those rules.
What always intrigued me about Virgilia is that she has a vessel... like, you know, furniture.

What that means I don't know.
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Old 2009-11-14, 06:06   Link #3232
ijriims
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My hypothesis is:

Kumasawa served the cliff-falling Beatrice in Kuadorian until she died in 1968. And therefore she was that Beatrice' s teacher or her guardian. Virgilia was the personification of Kumasawa towards cliff-falling Beatrice.

But that cliff-falling Beatrice is not the Beatrice as mastermind of the murders. Mastermind Beatrice was the one who taught Maria.

Meta-Beatrice was consisted of ALL Beatrices and thus she said Virgilia as her teacher. But Kumasawa was not related to Mastermind Beatrice.

Virgilia extended the gentle personification to meta-Battler but Kumasawa would not normally do so unless towards small kids.
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Old 2009-11-14, 07:49   Link #3233
Neofio3
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What always intrigued me about Virgilia is that she has a vessel... like, you know, furniture.

What that means I don't know.
That doesn't exactly preclude Beatrice not having a vessel (i.e. the culprit/s), that we just don't know of.

And Beatrice is supposed to be furniture in Ep 5, right? (No, this is not a question. Don't tell me. Haven't yet played Ep5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
My hypothesis is:

Kumasawa served the cliff-falling Beatrice in Kuadorian until she died in 1968. And therefore she was that Beatrice' s teacher or her guardian. Virgilia was the personification of Kumasawa towards cliff-falling Beatrice.

But that cliff-falling Beatrice is not the Beatrice as mastermind of the murders. Mastermind Beatrice was the one who taught Maria.

Meta-Beatrice was consisted of ALL Beatrices and thus she said Virgilia as her teacher. But Kumasawa was not related to Mastermind Beatrice.

Virgilia extended the gentle personification to meta-Battler but Kumasawa would not normally do so unless towards small kids.
Alternatively, here's a short tale from a guy in another forum:

Quote:
I only know one story, truthfully. It's a sad story and I'm not sure it would be right for you to hear it.

You insist? The story is about a girl called Ms. Beatrice— Oh! Yes, the name should sound familiar to you, though this Ms. Beatrice is not a witch... or at least, not yet, and not in the important ways. Beatrice wasn't even her real name. It was a name she chose for herself, because all the famous alchemists had pretend names for themselves, and an alchemist — a person who makes miracles real — was exactly what she longed to be. She was a very foolish and young girl. But one day she met a Mr. Goldsmith. Oh! He was young, then, and beautiful, and he thought the world belonged to him. Every girl only had to look at him to fall in love — you'll understand, too, when you're a little older. And Ms. Beatrice and Mr. Goldsmith both wanted to see a miracle, and they didn't believe that anything was impossible, and they were in love. And they made it happen. They made a true miracle. They studied secrets others scoffed at, and they learned things that had never before been learned, and they transmuted ten tons of lead into pure gold before their eyes.

Mr. Goldsmith was delighted! Now he could redeem the honour of his family, which other had laughed at, and he could live as he pleased and do as he liked. And Ms. Beatrice was delighted because she had exceeded all the famous alchemists of the past. So they made a contract. A foolish contract: that Mr. Goldsmith would have all the gold to redeem his family, and when he died everything that he made with the gold would pass to Ms. Beatrice. And they laughed as they signed it, because they were young and beautiful and thought the world was endless.

But even though they loved one another, Mr. Goldsmith married another woman. He said it was necessary somehow for his family. And Ms. Beatrice had to pretend not to be a lover or an alchemist but just an ordinary person. But they still laughed about their joke in secret. Then one day Ms. Beatrice bore a child... a child who Mr. Goldsmith said would shame the family name, and had to live in a secret house nobody knew of, like a bird a in a cage. And they laughed a bit less after that. And one day — oh, sorry, my dear, it's nothing, just a speck in my eye — but one day, the poor child escaped from her cage and dived from a cliff and broke her body on the rocks. Nobody knows why she did... you can't ever know another person. Not really. After that they stopped talking very much to one another. And Ms. Beatrice actually came to secretly resent Mr. Goldsmith a little, because she was old now, and she would never be able to enjoy the gold the way she could if she were young. And Mr. Goldsmith came to secretly fear Ms. Beatrice a little, because he thought she was doing nothing but wait for him to die. It was a funny situation, but neither of them were laughing any more.

Oh...
That's it. That's the end of the story.
I told you it was a sad story.
I don't think you should be telling this story to anybody else. It's just a silly, sad story, right?
Look, Maria, there's your cousins coming back from the beach. Go and play with them for a while. I've been sitting for too long and -ohhhhhhhhhh- my knees aren't what they used to be. I'll play with you again the next time you visit, okay?
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Last edited by Neofio3; 2009-11-14 at 08:17.
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Old 2009-11-14, 09:23   Link #3234
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
My hypothesis is:

Kumasawa served the cliff-falling Beatrice in Kuadorian until she died in 1968. And therefore she was that Beatrice' s teacher or her guardian. Virgilia was the personification of Kumasawa towards cliff-falling Beatrice.

But that cliff-falling Beatrice is not the Beatrice as mastermind of the murders. Mastermind Beatrice was the one who taught Maria.

Meta-Beatrice was consisted of ALL Beatrices and thus she said Virgilia as her teacher. But Kumasawa was not related to Mastermind Beatrice.

Virgilia extended the gentle personification to meta-Battler but Kumasawa would not normally do so unless towards small kids.
It was 1967. Also why can't Kumasawa be both the teacher of 1967 Beatrice and the current Beatrice? I see no reason to think otherwise.
If magic scenes were to be completely dismissed as total lies, this story would be pretty lame. It is almost certain that Kumasawa = Virgilia, and we know that Virgilia is Beatrice's teacher. We have seen a scene were both Virgilia and Beatrice sign a declaration in Maria's diary. Ange knows that story and she never says "where the hell is Virigilia's signature?", also in the anime we clearly see two different handwritings and both of them are different from Maria's handwriting.

Beatrice exists, Virgilia exists. We already know who Virgilia is, we only need to find out who is Beatrice.
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Old 2009-11-14, 10:01   Link #3235
Neofio3
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It was 1967. Also why can't Kumasawa be both the teacher of 1967 Beatrice and the current Beatrice? I see no reason to think otherwise.
If we take the name "Beatrice" as a title, then Kumasawa as the previous Beatrice makes sense, in the fact that she was Beatrice and gave up that title and became nameless (becoming "Virgilia"). In any case, Kumasawa as the person who is "Beatrice" to Maria just doesn't work, thematically. The "meta" representations differentiate the current Beatrice from the old one (Virgilia), if meta events are somehow symbolic to real-world events.

The order of Beatrice's would then go:

Beatrice I: Kumasawa. She abdicates the role and becomes titleless, soon to become "Virgilia" as a meta representation.
Beatrice II: The one in Kuwadorian, killed by Rosa. Has no meta representation.
Beatrice III: Present Beatrice. May or may not be the culprit, but almost certainly related to Maria.
Beatrice III ver. a-x: Beatrice III may also refer to multiple individuals taking the title Beatrice in the present, as in the case of Eva-Beatrice, who's almost certainly a different real-world person than the original Beatrice III.

Meta Beatrice may have nothing to do with these real-world Beatrice's and only acts as a representation of relationships and events. Her behavior however would most likely correspond to Beatrice III.
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Old 2009-11-14, 10:06   Link #3236
Jan-Poo
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wait wait you misunderstood me ^^:

Quote:
Also why can't Kumasawa be both the teacher of 1967 Beatrice and the (teacher of the) current Beatrice? I see no reason to think otherwise.
I hope it's clear now.
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Old 2009-11-14, 10:46   Link #3237
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It was 1967. Also why can't Kumasawa be both the teacher of 1967 Beatrice and the current Beatrice? I see no reason to think otherwise.
If magic scenes were to be completely dismissed as total lies, this story would be pretty lame. It is almost certain that Kumasawa = Virgilia, and we know that Virgilia is Beatrice's teacher. We have seen a scene were both Virgilia and Beatrice sign a declaration in Maria's diary. Ange knows that story and she never says "where the hell is Virigilia's signature?", also in the anime we clearly see two different handwritings and both of them are different from Maria's handwriting.

Beatrice exists, Virgilia exists. We already know who Virgilia is, we only need to find out who is Beatrice.
Ic. You were talking about EP20? I just checked it.

The whole declaration was written by Beatrice, I suppose (the handwriting was done by one person). Only there were two signatures. Let me modify my hypothesis a bit: the first case was that Kumasawa in the past taught magic to both cliff-falling Beatrice and current Beatrice as mastermind in Kwadorian. Certainly initially the secret-lover Beatrice was the one who taught the cliff-falling Beatrice about magic. Considering the personality of Kumasawa, it was likely that she also conjured some sort of "magic" (probably related to mackerel.....).

Or the case might simply be that Kumasawa discovered that mastermind Beatrice was having fun with Maria and Sakutarou, our Beatrice invited her to sign her name as a witness that Sakutarou was a living being while saying that Kumasawa was her master and was once a powerful witch (which was just a lie from our Beatrice's perspective, since she did not know Kumasawa did teach "magic" to cliff-falling Beatrice in the past in Kuadorian). In this case, my initial hypthesis does not need to be modified at all.

Kumasawa was the kind of person to go along with this kind of playing and she probably did want to appease Maria as well. That may be the truth.

But one thing piques me: The cursive signature "Warugirai" shown in the anime was quite neat. It should be written by someone well educated with English. So why she had to write down the translated sentence for the embossment on the chapel door?

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-14 at 12:02.
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Old 2009-11-14, 13:00   Link #3238
Jan-Poo
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Uhm doesn't "Warugiria" actually shows that Kumasawa doesn't really have a vast knowledge?

If she had then she should have signed "Virgilia". The handwriting is also a lot less elegant than Beatrice's, and while Beatrice writes in italian, Kumasawa does it in japanese.

I think everything is consistent with Kumasawa's character. Also the fact that she translated the inscription means that while she doesn't know english that well she isn't completely clueless about it. With the help of a dictionary she can translate it and, I must say, she didn't make any mistake.
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Old 2009-11-14, 15:53   Link #3239
Dlanor A. Knox
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
about all your Erika theories:


-Furudo Erika has not influenced the game up to this point.
-She did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it.


I suppose it could still work if she fell from the boat and lost her memory or something and then made up the personality "Furudo Erika" after that.
just some more theories:


1:she didnt exist in the GAME world, so if she died before she made it to rokijama than she indeed didnt exist there.
2: maybe she changed her name and thats why she didnt excist before the other games.
3:the reason why she didnt had any influence is (maybe) because the killing would happen no matter what happens, in that phrase she wouldnt have any influence in it.
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Old 2009-11-14, 16:10   Link #3240
Dlanor A. Knox
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btw I got 1 thing that troubles me, in almost every game there where 18 people on the island, but Kinzo was dead in the beginning of every game
so that means there should be another unknown person on the island, but he isnt the culprit because thats against Knox rule 1: The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow. that means that whatever Battler does, the murderer is one of the other 16 people...
somehow that sounds screwed up ne? ^^;;

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