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Old 2013-05-24, 15:21   Link #32381
Dormin
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I always found rosa-culprit incredibly far-fetched. Maybe it is because I never saw her as a culprit, but you are right on the notion that she is indeed very impulsive. So considering this, sort of insane-switch could be plausible. I don't think "violent insanity" acts as sufficient motive for a detective story, but the prime doesn't have to follow the structure of the detective story. However I would still find deus ex PTSD pretty stupid.

However naming George as culprit because he is willing to kill anyone who doesn't accept him and Shannon, I find that implausible. I understand it is implied that he is kind of a dickhead and because I never even liked the guy, I wish I could see him as the killer: but what motive would he have? Kill everyone because some people possible object the marriage? I don't remember chapter 6 closely, but wasn't the part in ep 4 where it was implied he was willing to kill everyone just a lie? Why would he kill? Wouldn't that make him just insane plus total douchebag? Wouldn't it be an total overkill? I don't see how things could develop so far that he decided that killing his family and friends is the only way of obtaining Shannon.

Besides I strongly believe the part about Eva covering things up was because she was involved in the happening somehow, or possibly saving Ange from her parentculprits

Last edited by Dormin; 2013-05-24 at 15:38.
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Old 2013-05-24, 16:29   Link #32382
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
I always found rosa-culprit incredibly far-fetched. Maybe it is because I never saw her as a culprit, but you are right on the notion that she is indeed very impulsive. So considering this, sort of insane-switch could be plausible. I don't think "violent insanity" acts as sufficient motive for a detective story, but the prime doesn't have to follow the structure of the detective story. However I would still find deus ex PTSD pretty stupid.

However naming George as culprit because he is willing to kill anyone who doesn't accept him and Shannon, I find that implausible. I understand it is implied that he is kind of a dickhead and because I never even liked the guy, I wish I could see him as the killer: but what motive would he have? Kill everyone because some people possible object the marriage? I don't remember chapter 6 closely, but wasn't the part in ep 4 where it was implied he was willing to kill everyone just a lie? Why would he kill? Wouldn't that make him just insane plus total douchebag? Wouldn't it be an total overkill? I don't see how things could develop so far that he decided that killing his family and friends is the only way of obtaining Shannon.

Besides I strongly believe the part about Eva covering things up was because she was involved in the happening somehow, or possibly saving Ange from her parentculprits
In regards to deus ex PTSD, I don't think it is the prime cause at all. PTSD is more of an enabler that makes people more unstable and amplifies other disorders than a pure culprit. Think of it (and my argument) more along the lines of a volatile, deadly powder keg scenario than a pure culprit. People with the disorder are capable of quickly becoming very violent if the right buttons are pushed, especially when under high stress (Rosa certainly counts as someone who experiences a lot of mental stress). Reminds me of a common theory that
Spoiler for spoilers for higurashi:
Also, the way she acts when she hears the word "Beatrice" is suspicious. To me, it seems the name screams "trigger".

In terms of insanity and its validity as a motive in a mystery novel, your point is certainly true if the novel is using Van Dyne's rules (Van Dyne's 19th IIRC). In a story that uses Knox's rules, insanity isn't forbidden. IIRC, Umineko is supposed to be a Knox mystery.

In ep6, I'm assuming you're talking about the love battle right? Just recently read the manga on that one. Not only did George have zero hesitation in his decision to kill, but also had zero hesitation over who his target would be. Contrast with
Spoiler for spoilers for 6th novel:
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Old 2013-05-24, 17:13   Link #32383
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So PTSD could work not as a motive but as a additional driving force. As long as we have some alternative motive for Rosa to do the killing, then I could see that happening. Problem here is that about the only motive for Rosa to kill in prime that I can think of would probably be the gold, and we have already spent time discussing whether killing for the gold is actually a reasonable motive. If you have any other motives for Rosa to be the culprit, then I'd gladly hear the theory. I know there is this guy that made, probably about rosaculprit, a video of multiple hours. Never got around watching it though, maybe because it is unbelievable long.

And for George, a big no no from me. Also no motive and questionable capability of killing (even though ep 6 implied it, I recall he fought against eva, and that scene could also be taken as a metaphor for his separation from the mothers care). I don't think we can find a motive from the gold or from the need of money for any of the cousins, actually.
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Old 2013-05-24, 17:59   Link #32384
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And for George, a big no no from me. Also no motive and questionable capability of killing (even though ep 6 implied it, I recall he fought against eva, and that scene could also be taken as a metaphor for his separation from the mothers care). I don't think we can find a motive from the gold or from the need of money for any of the cousins, actually.
George has the most motivation out of everyone on the island (If Yasu gets what she wants everyone benefits except George and Jessica, who lose Shannon and Kanon), and is trained in all kinds of martial arts. He and Eva have the greatest capacity for killing another person if you take guns out of the equation.
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Old 2013-05-24, 18:09   Link #32385
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Do you think it's possible that George found out about Yasu's "love duel" and took it into his own hands to see that "Shannon/George" was chosen by the roulette? And possibly removing naysayers to their love in the process? I could see that happening considering his characterization in the fantasy scenes.

But how would Hachijo Tohya know to characterize George this way? I don't think EP1/2 have any clues about George's devotion/insanity so it's likely that these are embellishments not known to Yasu at the time of the message bottle writings.

Hell, maybe George actually FOUND the message bottles and Yasu's manuscripts and took them seriously.
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Old 2013-05-24, 18:27   Link #32386
Dormin
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Hey hey wait a minute guys am I missing something now

George surely packs motivation, but would he seriously even consider killing everyone? If we want to address George as the culprit of the prime, what would his motive be? To get Shannon to himself?

Quote:
(If Yasu gets what she wants everyone benefits except George and Jessica, who lose Shannon and Kanon)
So if we take this as the motive for murder, George suddenly decides to kill everyone because his girlfriend is insane? The entire notion of "yasu getting what she wants" means you would accept yasu the way she is implied to be in the story (psychotic bomber with a scent of mass murder): we have no way of knowing whether she even intended to kill anyone during the prime. Also if George suddenly hits the violence switch wouldn't it mean he also kills the woman she kills/risks the woman that she is doing the killing for?

Quote:
He and Eva have the greatest capacity for killing another person if you take guns out of the equation.
So George kickboxed everyone to death because martial-arts power.

Also you must not forget that Krauss has the lever principle somehow helping him in boxing. Not many men can modify the laws of nature with their manly essence. I can't see George topping that any time soon.
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Old 2013-05-24, 19:08   Link #32387
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So PTSD could work not as a motive but as a additional driving force. As long as we have some alternative motive for Rosa to do the killing, then I could see that happening. Problem here is that about the only motive for Rosa to kill in prime that I can think of would probably be the gold, and we have already spent time discussing whether killing for the gold is actually a reasonable motive. If you have any other motives for Rosa to be the culprit, then I'd gladly hear the theory. I know there is this guy that made, probably about rosaculprit, a video of multiple hours. Never got around watching it though, maybe because it is unbelievable long.

And for George, a big no no from me. Also no motive and questionable capability of killing (even though ep 6 implied it, I recall he fought against eva, and that scene could also be taken as a metaphor for his separation from the mothers care). I don't think we can find a motive from the gold or from the need of money for any of the cousins, actually.
Upon further thought and analysis, I suspect that "The Chain of Hate" that's mentioned a lot (and of which EVA-Beatrice symbolizes) is a big part of Rosa's motive. In short: Volatile combo of "Chain Of Hate" + extensive mental instability + PTSD "enabler factor" + severe stress -> snaps from something at the conference -> mass murder. To boil it down further, one could also reduce the equation to a deadly combination of Revenge + Insanity which should qualify under the "personal motive" under Van Dyne's 19th. Disturbingly similar to
Spoiler for spoilers for Higurashi:
Also arguably foreshadowed by the 2nd novel Tea Party in a VERY disturbing fashion.

Who are the prime recipients of the "Chain of Hate" (the Ushiromiya punching bags)? Who has suffered the cruelest treatment from the "Chain of Hate"? Who has suffered the longest from the "Chain of Hate"? Arguably, Rosa is near the top of the list for many of those questions though one could argue Natsui suffers more under some of the questions.

George actually has the highest capacity for killing (along with Eva and Krauss) once you remove the guns from the equation. Why this is so is actually quite interesting from a scientific perspective. Take the ratio X/Y. X represents "at will" strength that someone has access to at any time. Y represents maximum potential strength (reserve strength in crisis situations). The human body has mental "limiters" that suppress access to full strength potential since the usage of that full potential is potentially self-destructive depending on circumstances. When a person does strength training, they raise X and Y at the same time. Martial arts training effects the human body by removing some of the "limiters", which increases control over how much strength one has access to, thus increasing X but not Y. It should be noted that the "limiters" removed this way are completely safe to remove without risk of self-destructive effects. Combine this with George is a yandere and there is potential for a culprit.

In regards to the "rosa culprit video" you asked about, that's the KYM video that's rather depending on who you ask famous or infamous. It basically says that Rosa and George are the culprits while Dr. Nanjo is the sole accomplice on the boards IN ADDITION to "Prime".
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Old 2013-05-24, 22:16   Link #32388
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My main problem with George-as-culprit is that, following from the obvious motive, the two people he'd have the greatest interest in killing are the two that make it off the island in the end. I don't see him as a save-the-best-for-last type, and I don't see him collaborating easily with another killer (when he does it, it's for a higher purpose, so it's ok). Also, the person most likely to cut down his passive-aggressive rampage would be his own mother, which I don't see happening at all.

As far as Rosa, she could be the killer, she could not be the killer, and unlike, say, Eva or Kyrie, there's nothing in the story that really gives either side any weight. She's had a shit life, but she's also the most weak-willed of the siblings, and mass murder may be a tad out of her reach. There's also the problem of who kills Maria in that scenario; Rosa almost certainly can't, and as annoying as the brat is, wasting her to get back at her mom seems like a dick move for anyone else.
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Old 2013-05-25, 03:11   Link #32389
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Huh - never thought of Rosa as being impulsive. Even when she gets violent with Maria, it's after several gentler attempts had already failed. In EP2, she plays Yasu's accomplice very well, in EP3, she's very sensible in how she talks to Eva, and in EP7, her idea was VERY SOLID regarding how to cover up Kratsuhi's deaths. She's also mentioned several times that she takes the idea of taking a life very seriously, and consider herself better off avoiding it. When she's allowed to live past the First Twilight (admittedly not very often), she's one cool customer, IMO.

I also take this time to mention that literally the ONLY naysayers to GeorgexShannon are Eva and, like, Kanon. The other adults have no reason to care, and Hideyoshi, even if he dislikes it, seems to respect George's decisions as an adult, and the other kids encourage it. I am amused that he presents it as "I'll stand up against the whole Ushiromiya for my chosen partner!" as if Krauss or Rosa would make an uproar and call for his disinheritance or something. I guess you might say Kinzo MIGHT care, but he'd probabvly just be impressed with George's sudden burst of manly moxy, forreals.
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Old 2013-05-25, 07:07   Link #32390
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The fighting game showed a possible scenario where Rosa was being manipulated from the shadows to hurt the rest of the family members by "Beatrice" who she believed was the Beatrice she accidentally got killed as a child. She's pretty much driven insane by the end of it when she's pleading for Beatrice to let her and Maria go when she figures out she's been used. You could argue she was insane from the start but it certainly didn't look like that.

I think you could make EP2 work like this by having the servants be the "willing" accomplices and have Rosa be the "unwitting/coerced" accomplice. She follows what Beatrice is saying without knowing who Beatrice really is and is kept in the dark from a lot of the details more so than the other servants. It would explain why Rosa didnt just hijack the entire thing, she thought there was still someone around that could press the button.

Still, I cant think of any reason why you'd consider any of the characters more or less likely to have committed the murders in Prime. We just know far too little of it to actually make solid theories of it. The stories are ultimately works of fiction and we can really be 100% certain of the characterization of the cast since they are often at odds with each other.
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Old 2013-05-25, 13:28   Link #32391
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Hey hey wait a minute guys am I missing something now

George surely packs motivation, but would he seriously even consider killing everyone? If we want to address George as the culprit of the prime, what would his motive be? To get Shannon to himself?
He is literally the only character who is portrayed as being willing to kill everyone to get what he wants in more than one story.

Quote:
So if we take this as the motive for murder, George suddenly decides to kill everyone because his girlfriend is insane? The entire notion of "yasu getting what she wants" means you would accept yasu the way she is implied to be in the story (psychotic bomber with a scent of mass murder): we have no way of knowing whether she even intended to kill anyone during the prime. Also if George suddenly hits the violence switch wouldn't it mean he also kills the woman she kills/risks the woman that she is doing the killing for?
You're not getting it. The idea is that Goerge would be an impulsive killer where things escalate. Maybe he only meant to kill Battler initially, or perhaps he's trying to pressure Yasu into staying as "Shannon" and give up on the roulette game by sabotaging it. Maybe once he kills people and opens pandora's box, things spiral out of control from there.

It doesn't change the fact that George has the most motivation, killing capability, and is the only person that Yasu, Battler, and Eva would all cover up the blame for.

Quote:
So George kickboxed everyone to death because martial-arts power.

Also you must not forget that Krauss has the lever principle somehow helping him in boxing. Not many men can modify the laws of nature with their manly essence. I can't see George topping that any time soon.
If you're going to mock me, you can just leave. George's training in martial arts isn't comparable to Krauss' fantasy superpowers, it's a trait he ACTUALLY has that can be used to SERIOUSLY HURT PEOPLE in the real world.

Quote:
My main problem with George-as-culprit is that, following from the obvious motive, the two people he'd have the greatest interest in killing are the two that make it off the island in the end. I don't see him as a save-the-best-for-last type, and I don't see him collaborating easily with another killer (when he does it, it's for a higher purpose, so it's ok). Also, the person most likely to cut down his passive-aggressive rampage would be his own mother, which I don't see happening at all.
Given how George has displayed backhanded, passive-aggressive means of getting what he wants as a main personality trait (especially if you think he stole that letter), then this is actually perfectly consistent with his character.

If, say, the first Twilight was of nothing but the servants and Battler's parents, or something, he could kill them and reveal to Yasu "Hey, I just ruined your roulette game. Knock this shit off and be my Shannon or I target Battler next," and then things escalate from there, which would probably revolve in chaos, more deaths, and probably either Battler killing George in self defense or, for the sake of narrative poeticness, Yasu shooting George to save Battler. Cue the survivors escaping, Yasu turning on the bomb to cover everything and then killing herself because everything was indirectly her fault.
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Old 2013-05-25, 14:52   Link #32392
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He is literally the only character who is portrayed as being willing to kill everyone to get what he wants in more than one story.
It's funny how I saw this matter completely differently. I never thought that he was actually willing to kill anyone, just fight the family, basically meaning that he would stand against anyone that was objecting him and shannon. As Kealym pointed out, the number of people actually giving a shit about marriage are a minority. Even if he chose in ep 4 "kill everyone" he never proceeded with the plan and used it as a trick to get to gaap, same with ep 6, his aggression and "willpower to kill" were directed towards Eva, and can easily be seen as symbolistic move to be freed from the grasps of his mother. This way I don't think besides being implied to steal the letter and other general douchebaggery George was never implied to actually will or intending or being even prepared to actually kill anyone.

Quote:
You're not getting it. The idea is that Goerge would be an impulsive killer where things escalate. Maybe he only meant to kill Battler initially, or perhaps he's trying to pressure Yasu into staying as "Shannon" and give up on the roulette game by sabotaging it. Maybe once he kills people and opens pandora's box, things spiral out of control from there.

It doesn't change the fact that George has the most motivation, killing capability, and is the only person that Yasu, Battler, and Eva would all cover up the blame for.
Again, I believe impulsive killing so be the thing in prime. This way George, as any other character, could have been the true culprit. But we have to define first are we talking about the prime or the boards.

With the internal logic the boards can be practically explained with any culprit as long as it doesn't collide with the red truths. This way explaining boards with George can be true. However I believe we should remember that even though trying to find alternative culprits for the boards is extremely fun, they are ultimately alternative explanations as ryu made painfully clear who the board-culprit is.

In prime, well, we don't know even the involvement of yasu. We don't know if she meant to kill anyone. We don't know if George ever knew even about "true" intentions of yasu, even if there was any true intentions. I personally believe the implications about yasu not willing to murder the shit out of everyone, which practically drops the bottom of the magic roulette. I'd still say pretty much any other prime-culprit makes more sense than George. Even Rosa, even though I clearly pointed out before that even if it would be theoretically possible with sort of insane-switch, I'm not very fond of insane-switch theories.

But as for prime, I literally can't say "you are wrong", because we have no way of knowing what happened in the prime. Therefore I believe certain factors (like hiding the truth that you mentioned) should be used as indicators of what happened in the prime: I don't believe hiding the truth even makes most sense in the case of George.

First of all Battler is sick with plotdeviceamnesia, Yasu could have easily died on prime (or drowned as implied in the story), Eva covering the truth literally MAKES SENSE in pretty much any scenario, as long as she had some role in the happenings of the prime. If she was involved in any way, telling the truth could only backfire against her. Even if she wasn't involved in killings or accidents any way, hiding the truth because angeparentculprits is far more heavily implied than georgeculprit. I think there was even portions of ep 8 dedicated for this interpretation, part about eva-beatrice being always ange's personal guardian angel and her side, which could be logically seen as protective actions with the truth.

Quote:
If you're going to mock me, you can just leave. George's training in martial arts isn't comparable to Krauss' fantasy superpowers, it's a trait he ACTUALLY has that can be used to SERIOUSLY HURT PEOPLE in the real world.
Heh, I wasn't mocking you. You could probably see about things like "krauss and manly essence" that I was trying to set up fancy joke, but if you took it as ridiculing you, then I apologize.

But to certain degree I think what I said was true. It wasn't as much about George being the ultimate fighter, but about using martial arts as a way to resolve conflicts and do the killings. First of all, this is on bit shaky ground, but I don't really remember did George actually receive any proper training, aside from Evatraining?

Second, martial arts are really not about killing people. Most of martial arts available for public are combat sports, as in sports. Some other martial arts are about hurting people, for example, Krav Maga is basically about self-defense, but at the same time, about hurting the shit out of people with nice methods like groin-shots and digging the eyes out. Speaking of the combat capabilities George's high heel kicks can be used as attacks, but as actual points to back up the theory of George killing people? He could probably beat the shit out of people like Battler on one on one, but any kind of scenario where martial arts could actually be applied to any murders happening on the island is so far fetch it shot out of the orbit or something.

In the story we have guns, and this way it becomes quite clear that the murders were done using guns (with maybe additional details like knifes/stakes/strangling). Only scenario where I can think of George and his skills actually being useful or important for the story is him trying to disarm other person using a gun, and no, I don't believe any disarmament technique is about kicking the assailant. Only scenario where I could find any kind of martial arts useful for the sake of the story would be someone disarming the culprit, and I didn't read any implications of this being even remotely realistic scenario, and considering the high level technique, I don't think we have any Solid Snakes on the island
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Old 2013-05-25, 15:02   Link #32393
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I think we're returning to an old topic.
Each Ushiromiya might have a motive or an excuse or the way to kill someone but a single one of them doesn't seem to have the power or the reason to kill everyone else.
However I think Umineko, starting from Ep 3 which was written by Tohya who might have vague memories of what really happened, implied more than one there could be more than one culprit in Prime and that things didn't actually follow the planned course and that some dead could have been due to an incident.

I don't see George as willing to go on a killing rampage but I can see George discovering the truth about Shannon, losing it and attacking someone, incidentally killing that person.

Same for Rosa who seems to be the most paranoid one and, if things turn dangerous or scary or if Beatrice is involved, could have had an insanity moment and end up pushing the trigger.

Krauss is shown to lose it if his wife were to be harmed, same for Eva if her husband or kid are touched.

Kirye, faced with a potential threat, might chose what Ange chose in the trick ending (I don't know if I can trust you so I'll kill you just to play safe).

Krauss also seemed to plan to take responsibility for covering up his father's death, so I've been wondering if, should the siblings pressure him, he would end up committing suicide.

The problem would be to create a paranoia button. Honestly, although the gold can cause an argument, I've hard time thinking they'll grab the guns and do what they did in Ep 7 teaparty.

I prefer the old theory of the mystery game which got messed up and ended up creating an incident that created paranoia.
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Old 2013-05-25, 16:12   Link #32394
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post

With the internal logic the boards can be practically explained with any culprit as long as it doesn't collide with the red truths. This way explaining boards with George can be true. However I believe we should remember that even though trying to find alternative culprits for the boards is extremely fun, they are ultimately alternative explanations as ryu made painfully clear who the board-culprit is.
I just thought of something interesting regarding that. What if Beato placing herself as the culprit on the boards was part of the plan to help reveal the truth?

Beato INTENTIONALLY built the boards in such a way so that despite placing herself as the "apparent culprit", those who could see through her "mask of villany" and uncover the truth about her would know the truth of the murders, which includes the true culprits. In short, her cover-up works via an elaborate multi-layered illusion that can be boiled down to "a bloodthirsty witch and her demon servants killed everyone" --> "I so totally did it" --> "Here's the truth". Only a select few would ever be able to pierce through all the illusions, but the truth of the murders was intended by her to be found on the boards. A ploy reminescent of
Spoiler for spoilers for Metal Gear Solid 3:
That would say that her being the culprit is still truth, since after all she's the one who built the board like that in the first place. "Just as Planned".
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Old 2013-05-25, 16:31   Link #32395
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I just thought of something interesting regarding that. What if Beato placing herself as the culprit on the boards was part of the plan to help reveal the truth?
I don't know if I understood you correctly, but if you are saying that you suspect board and prime culprits are different, then yes, I very much agree with you. Boards and prime don't necessarily have to have any correlation.

If you are saying that the board culprit might not be yasu but a work of some clever ruse hiding the real culprit, then I'd say I really much want to believe that (and quite a while after playing chiru was desperately searching for an additional possible board culprit because I didn't want to believe in murderous Yasu) but I think there are some instances where explaining things with anyone else than Yasu is impossible or at least very hard
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Old 2013-05-25, 19:57   Link #32396
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I just realized (probably super obvious to most peopl) that Featherine got injured and lost all of her memories once, and now contains them all, including her name, in a disc. It's a nice parallell to Battler and the forgeries.
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Old 2013-05-29, 18:12   Link #32397
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
If you are saying that the board culprit might not be yasu but a work of some clever ruse hiding the real culprit, then I'd say I really much want to believe that (and quite a while after playing chiru was desperately searching for an additional possible board culprit because I didn't want to believe in murderous Yasu) but I think there are some instances where explaining things with anyone else than Yasu is impossible or at least very hard
That's what I'm implying. I actually have a theory explaining this. This may be controversial, but I think I may of solved Beatrice's heart and the inner workings of why she was doing everything she did.

Yasu is a legacy character.

What I mean by "legacy character" I mean something like this: Robin I= Dick Grayson. Robin II= Jason Todd. Robin III= Tim Drake. Yasu I is the child who was tossed. Dead since an infant surviving that is medically impossible. Shannon likely found out about the story and after the tragedy, she used that story as an integral part of her plot to protect the family's honor and at the same time help Battler. Thus did she become "Yasu II".

Meta-Beatrice is indeed a real witch. She comes from Shannon and her form is based on the legend.

Meta-Beatrice's plan is built upon a multi-layered illusion in which she paints herself as the villain. The first layer of the illusion is the psychotic demon summoning witch. The second layer of the illusion is Shkannon which again paints herself as the villain. The only way to kill the second illusion is to understand Beatrice's heart. For those who can do so, she left the truth of the murders encased in her boards. That truth is still balls to the wall hard to deduce. The truth of the culprits of Prime were deliberately meant to be identified based on the boards, providing you cann pierce all of Beatrice's illusions.

This is where the story of Yasu I kicks in.

Shannon and Kanon were not the same person in Prime. However, "Beatrice" WANTS the reader to believe they are the same person as part of her multi-layered illusion. Shannon truly loved Kanon as a best friend/younger brother so metaphorically speaking their hearts were one. As part of her plan, their hearts would become one literately. R7 is indeed telling a truth of the boards. One from Beatrice's perspective.

Shannon's motive for paring Kanon with Jessica becomes pretty clear in the 6th novel. She knew her departure would likely break Kanon's heart, so she tried to put them together as a move to fill any potential holes said departure would make.

The self loathing language in the early novels is reflective of how Shannon partially blames herself for the tragedy.

The last stand and tea party in the 2nd novel were warnings to Battler.

The reason Beatrice acted like such a troll was a combination of her plan to help Battler AND how she was still angry with Battler over his sin.

Beatrice's "Mask of the Villain" was placing an enormous strain upon her heart that was eating at her. This burden eventually led to a mental breakdown in the 4th novel.

The first warning sign was in how she started putting her own personal feelings into the game. Eventually she was unable to tell her "stage self" from her "true self anymore as evident in the Golden Land Scene. I can understand her pain since having to push away the very people you care about in order to help them really hurts. Very much like the scenario with
Spoiler for Puella spoilers:


Lambadelta knows the truth and is possibly an accomplice in the plot. This explains some of her behaviour such as the "Golden Sorceror Incident". Her objective is more about keeping Bernkastel "glued to the tube" more than anything else.

Chick Beato is an imperfect ressurection that is missing some VERY important memories. It is these specific memories being missing that comes around to bite Battler in the rear in the 8th novel when it comes to a
Spoiler for higurashi spoilers:


Battler had the right idea in the 6th novel. His inexperience as GM is what triggers a certain scenario. What Beatrice handed to Lambadelta is just an alternate but workable solution designed to troll Erika. She accepted it becaue it works AND she might be "on the take".

The 7th novel and Our Confessions functions as a explanation of Beatrice's plot and multilayered illusion. Wills solutions are INTENTIONALLY designed to have a double meaning, which is perfectly in character with what Beatrice is trying to do. The take home message of the 7th novel Tea Party is that there were two culprits in the original incident.

EVA-Beatrice's third piece of symbolism is Beatrice trying to warn Battler that there are multiple culprits.

Last edited by magnum12; 2013-05-29 at 18:44.
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Old 2013-05-30, 00:23   Link #32398
Kealym
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Originally Posted by magnum12 View Post
Yasu I is the child who was tossed. Dead since an infant surviving that is medically impossible. Shannon likely found out about the story and after the tragedy, she used that story as an integral part of her plot to protect the family's honor and at the same time help Battler. Thus did she become "Yasu II".
Putting aside the more detailed elements of this theory that one could argue with, "medically impossible"? Surely you're kidding?
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Old 2013-05-30, 01:04   Link #32399
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Dead since an infant surviving that is medically impossible.
Infants have survived bigger falls without another human body as shielding before in real life. You are incorrect.
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Old 2013-05-30, 08:10   Link #32400
Renall
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That said, I've always been fond of the idea that Lion and Yasu could be different people. I mean, the only proof Yasu ever had that she was who she ends up thinking she was is because people told her, except Genji and Nanjo are about as honest as the day is dark and Kinzo wouldn't have any goddamn idea because he's nuts.

However, the story certainly seems to want us to think that she has some independent physical reason to believe them. Whatever that injury, deformity, or condition is, it lends support to the information that she's been given and has convinced her that it's true.

Plus it sort of thematically would make less sense that way. Lion's supposed to be another side of her, not another person entirely (Yasu would still exist in a Lion world if Lion != Yasu, after all, just probably not as Shannon/Kanon). I still like the idea of Genji and Nanjo bullshitting it with a replacement orphan though, if only because we know Nanjo is incapable of saving anybody's life.
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