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Old 2013-05-30, 12:40   Link #32401
AuraTwilight
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I still like the idea of Genji and Nanjo bullshitting it with a replacement orphan though, if only because we know Nanjo is incapable of saving anybody's life.
Compromise solution: They brought the baby back to life Frankenweenie-style. Yasu is literally undead.
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Old 2013-05-30, 14:14   Link #32402
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by magnum12 View Post
That's what I'm implying. I actually have a theory explaining this. This may be controversial, but I think I may of solved Beatrice's heart and the inner workings of why she was doing everything she did...]
I disagree with your theory, but entertaining it for a moment, what do you think the clues are in favour of that theory?
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Old 2013-05-30, 14:36   Link #32403
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I disagree with your theory, but entertaining it for a moment, what do you think the clues are in favour of that theory?
Still working on the theory. Much of involves chessboard thinking in an attempt to solve the truth of the murders by understanding the mechanics of Beatrice's plot and her heart through it (which includes WHY she's doing it in the first place). Maybe even figure out the Meta World as well. I do leave this. Such an elaborate stunt is perfectly in character for someone like Beatrice to pull. Given the series nickname "Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls", I don't put it past the series to even use "meta-trolling" as part of the illusion.
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Old 2013-05-30, 14:54   Link #32404
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Still working on the theory. Much of involves chessboard thinking in an attempt to solve the truth of the murders by understanding the mechanics of Beatrice's plot and her heart through it (which includes WHY she's doing it in the first place). Maybe even figure out the Meta World as well. I do leave this. Such an elaborate stunt is perfectly in character for someone like Beatrice to pull. Given the series nickname "Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls", I don't put it past the series to even use "meta-trolling" as part of the illusion.
Heh, I like it. Not because I believe it to be true, but because it reminds me of myself and my thinking after I finished umineko. The part of the fun has always been to try and find additional culprits.

However there are couple of things: first of all, as I stated before, it is painfully clear that ryu meant yasu as culprit for boards. That doesn't mean that we should treat her as the prime-culprit and therefore the killer, but as I never liked describing her as a killer I also struggled with the boards before coming with the conclusion that boards can be taken totally metaphorically and they don't need to have any correlation with prime.

Second, if we believe that someone else than yasu is the board-culprit, we should have a motive for the culprit. Funny thing is that we TOTALLY CAN explain the boards with any twisted logic as long as it is in line with the red texts, but that doesn't mean it ultimately makes any sense: I find it hard to imagine that any other culprit would lead to the entire scenario of detective game and complicated closed rooms. If we take someone (like Kyrie or Rosa) to be a culprit and believe that yasu has no relation to any of the murders, why would they even bother to follow the epitah? I think we have discussed beforehand that the fact that most of the possible culprits are very intelligent makes it very hard to believe the murders could actually happen in the way described in the boards.

Third, there are some scenes that make it very hard to believe culprit to be anyone else than yasu committing the murders for any other motive. I just replayed ep 4 and realized that it could be basically explained with kyrie-culprit as it doesn't violate any red texts in the game. But there are parts like (if we take that battler is the "objective viewpoint" inside the boards) "beatrice" appearing on the balcony and talking to battler: if we believe it to be someone else than the culprit, what sense does it make? If we believe it to be anyone else than yasu, even if possible being explained with many different culprits, what would the motive to pull out that kind of show to be?

There are many other scenes like that, scenes that basically made it very hard to explain things logically with any other than yasu. Even if I strongly used to believe that the entire board structure is a big troll by ryu for us (very much like you), scenes like ep 2 and shannon clearly killing gohda and george and herself, and maybe even ep 3 and death of nanjo don't make any sense if we don't apply yasuculprit to the boards.
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Old 2013-05-31, 06:33   Link #32405
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I know they aren't canon, but does anyone have access to a description of the plots from Ōgon Musōkyoku?
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Old 2013-06-02, 15:22   Link #32406
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So, been awhile since I posted in here but has anyone taken the time to discuss the form in which the meta-world exists recently?

Last I checked it was basically in (somewhat) agreement that the meta-world is basically up for interpretation, yet some things are basically either set in stone or at bare minimum agreed on within some basic level of understanding.

Things such as -

1) Regardless of what it actually exists as, the meta-world likely (If not certainly) is not something written within the "Episodes" that make up the actual forgeries that exist in the "Reality"/Prime of Umineko.

2) At some level the meta-world is depicting the metaphorical struggle within Tohya/Ange and other characters (Like the theory that Will is the author of Lion and Bern is representing the fandom who doesn't want there to be a happy "fantasy" in the Umineko Saga).

So with that established what it basically comes down to (Or rather came down to) last time I came here was whether or not you believe the meta- is solely metaphor for Tohya/Ange/Etc.'s mental state and inner discussions/conflicts or whether it's that in addition to some sort of meta-physical plane of existence where ideas from Prime somehow take form as "people". People have brought up how a theory like this could be considered supported by Forgery No. XXX depending on how valid you want to consider it.

It's important to note that this isn't saying "Prime is reality and the meta-world is just the metaphorical representation of ramblings of some insane amnesiac and his suicidal sister, along with characters from the fan-fiction a bunch of other dudes wrote about because why not" or "Prime is reality which is governed by the meta-world" but rather saying that both of these things can cause and influence one another at the same time.

Without prime/boards/forgeries the meta-world has no context for existing and no reason to even be there, but without the meta-world nothing in Umineko makes much sense or has any real emotional value.

Of course if you subscribe to the "meta is a reality somewhere" theory you still run into problems such as "Why do the rules and character focuses keep changing throughout each episode" which I'm not sure how to reconcile, but I'm sure someone has thought of it.
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Old 2013-06-02, 19:29   Link #32407
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I wanted to post it in the images thread, but this was clearly a spoiler, so I'll put it in here:

This was in the most recent Episode of Hayore Nyaruko-san W:

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Was this refering to Umineko or was it a reference to another anime? I don't know but it was just striking me.



@Prototype909:
Yes you summarized it well. This is more or less the consensus on the meta world. But once in a while someone suddenly says "maybe the meta-world-events were in the message bottles after all". That we get no new answers is leading us to move in circles and we start to doubt things that are already long established in the hope that "then we finally get the 'true' answer to all things".
While I only joined shortly before EP8-part2 was translated completly, many others here are creating theories ever since Novel EP2 was released. And now suddenly no new information is coming and... well as you see we make no progress.
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Old 2013-06-02, 20:56   Link #32408
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Well...

Spoiler for The name Yasu:
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Old 2013-06-03, 06:28   Link #32409
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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
Well...

Spoiler for The name Yasu:
Spoiler for Reference:
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Old 2013-06-08, 22:07   Link #32410
GreyZone
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So, just to check it:

Is there, aside from the EP7 and EP8 Manga, anything new that will help us "find the truth"? Or is it still most likely that we will never even get the necessary clues to find the truth that we call "R-Prime"?
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Old 2013-06-09, 15:33   Link #32411
Dormin
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So, just to check it:

Is there, aside from the EP7 and EP8 Manga, anything new that will help us "find the truth"? Or is it still most likely that we will never even get the necessary clues to find the truth that we call "R-Prime"?
I don't know anything true, but hell, I am very content with the situation right now. Ryu has showered us in the interviews with some statements that can be seen as evidence towards kyrie-culprit, so that is basically what I wanted all along. I know this can be caused by me wanting to reach a certain theory, but so far I am very pleased with the overall subtle approach towards the truth.

Besides if something "new" would turn up that would suddenly reveal the entire truth or make the truth easier to deduct would somehow seem like a cheap pull, just saying. The part of my love towards seacats is how many many things and details are left for complete subjective interpretation alone. I don't want someone telling me afterwards that shit, everything was actually wrong all along.

Anyway, there was one thing that I wanted to bring up: not relevant towards the truth and thus way out of current subject, but it concerns the entire interpretation of magic and the existence of witches.

The thing is that I feel very uncertain in what we should believe. At the same time I feel umineko has the "no magic" aspect, meaning that everything and everything can be explained metaphorically and no magic existing, but at the same time, I feel Ryu is trying to get us to accept
Spoiler for higurashi:
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Old 2013-06-09, 22:58   Link #32412
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
The thing is that I feel very uncertain in what we should believe. At the same time I feel umineko has the "no magic" aspect, meaning that everything and everything can be explained metaphorically and no magic existing, but at the same time, I feel Ryu is trying to get us to accept
Spoiler for higurashi:
What you describe doesn't necessarily derail the system of Umineko, it just calls for a certain perspective thinking. Umineko basically allows both, to explain everything without magic and to explain everything with magic.
Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2013-06-10, 08:28   Link #32413
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I'm not certain if this is a spoiler to anyone anymore, but if someone wants to have virgin eyes towards higurashi I thought it would be appropriate to spoiler

Spoiler for more higurashi related:
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Old 2013-06-10, 09:55   Link #32414
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I don't believe it... if R07 intended the line of Battler's "Higurashi is my favorite Novel" to be some kind of foreshadowing for the value of the meta-world (for example that Ikuko made Tohya remember his memories by telling him things that made some kind of impact, like his favorite music, his favorite movie AND his favorite novel), then I am speechless. actually it IS the only clue we actually have about the Higurashi look-alikes aside from the "fanservice" and "possibly same universe" excuses, but on the other hand people who don't know Higurashi would be in an unfair position.
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Old 2013-06-10, 18:46   Link #32415
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To me, the meta exists. There can be as many parallells and references to other characters as possible, but I find it much more interesting if they (bern, lambda, etc) do exist on a different plane. Therefore, I'll stop thinking beyond that. May Beatrice have mercy on my soul.
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Old 2013-06-11, 00:45   Link #32416
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Rereading the manga, Bern did promise to find 1998 Ange the happiest world possible for her (ie didn't promise to bring her family back). It is interesting that both Featherine and Bern made that promise, maybe they both really did come through for her.
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Old 2013-06-11, 06:07   Link #32417
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Rereading the EP7 Tea Party for some reason I actually got reminded why I found some of the criticism against the bomb story so weird, because it totally works in the confines of how Umineko is set up, even when proposing a real world of Prime.

The island was first planned as a submarine base connected to the Kaiten project, but the plan was quickly scrapped and these parts are often left out of discussions I feel.
  1. The new plan was for Rokkenjima to become one of the starting points of a pincer attack in case the Americans started landing in Tokyo bay (which could have happened). It was only then that the 900 tons of explosives were installed on Rokkenjima.
  2. As soon as the war appeared to be lost they panicked what would happen if the Americans would find the explosives, so they set up the self destruct system around the island.
  3. Kinzo knew about the system and left it in place (he did not install it himself)
  4. This whole plan was top secret and would be a plan that was never found out by the Americans. So this would actually be a threat to world safety, as Japan would have knowingly violated protocol of the postwar period.

I know it could be questioned why they didn't at least force Kinzo to deinstall the self-destruct mechanism, but on the other hand, his knowledge about those explosives was likely what got him in good favor with the Japanese part of the government so nobody opposed him.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:14   Link #32418
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The problem there is just why they wouldn't have said something at the end of the war as part of the surrender. The government wouldn't have been in any more trouble for it than they would for any of the other stuff they built to conduct the war, so why worry about it? Now a scenario I could maybe see is this: Kinzo knows about the base and blackmails/bribes the military officials who know about it into silence. They never tell the American occupation force, which would be a pretty serious breach of protocol... although I highly doubt it's any threat to world security by 1996. It would be a scandal of sorts, but by 1986 the government in place in Japan has no significant connection to the government of 1945, and the Americans aren't going to care anymore (especially since it just blew up Japanese citizens, oh well!).

It's not like it's a war crime to stockpile munitions during a war, and while it would be a breach of disarmament to keep them, it isn't the government that had control over the weapons; it's a private citizen who more or less stole them. Bear in mind that Kinzo is in illegal possession of a defunct military base, a huge stash of government ordnance, and gold from a foreign government that, being WW2 Axis gold, was probably itself stolen. Pretty much nothing he owns is legally his, so all the government has to do is say "Welp, Kinzo Ushiromiya was a criminal dickhead, whaddayagonnado?"

The problem as I see it is there's a very specific area that appears to be outside the blast radius, and that's the submarine dock itself and the house built over it. In the 40s, there would've been nothing in the area where Kinzo eventually built the mansion and chapel. There do appear to be at least a couple entrances/exits from the tunnels on that side of the island, though. To me that fits more with the notion of a distant storage vault than a deliberate after-the-fact self-destruct system. I'm not sure if it's normal to store torpedos 1km away from your actual docking area though; seems like you'd end up wheeling things a long-ass way. However, maybe that makes sense as a safety precaution if you have an awful lot of them, I'm not an ordnance expert.

The other problem with "Kinzo left the system in place" is I doubt the gold room and the trigger clock were set up at the time the base was built. It makes more sense to me that, if we're going to accept that the explosives exist (which is absurd after 40 years but whatever, it's a story), it's probably just someone rigging them all to go off. No need to explain a complication in the form of even more explosives when the 900t of torpedos have to go off at some point anyway to create a blast that big.

Finally, if it was a top secret plan, why did an Italian military submarine get routed there at any point? Top secret tends to mean top secret; it's something you wouldn't even trust to your allies. They don't seem to have found it by mistake (if they had, "silencing" them would at least make sense), and I don't know what purpose they'd have in going there intentionally if it wasn't something someone was supposed to see or know about.
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Old 2013-06-11, 12:52   Link #32419
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"And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, saying Genji never left the mansion after 24:00"

Guys, when did Erika get the time to go into Kinzo's study and do this scientific examinations? At this point, shouldn't she be in the guesthouse + she does not have the keys to the study.
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Old 2013-06-11, 13:16   Link #32420
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
"And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, saying Genji never left the mansion after 24:00"

Guys, when did Erika get the time to go into Kinzo's study and do this scientific examinations? At this point, shouldn't she be in the guesthouse + she does not have the keys to the study.
This red was used during the Court of Illusions. I'm not sure exactly when Erika performed her elite CSI skills, but since Bern is speaking retroactively, it's most likely that she did it later, on the second day, at some point in confirming Genji's movement. The whole thing is very vaguely described in terms of fingerprinting and mud on people's shoes and etc.

It has to have happened before she cornered Natsuhi in the parlor, though, since that's when she presented her super detailed evidence and reasoning to everybody.

Also, it's said that Kinzo's study was made openly available to her to rummage through - it's not like the survivor group can't access the room - even without a key, they can wedge the door open from when they enterred via the window.
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