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Old 2013-06-20, 18:37   Link #32441
Dormin
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I can see where you're coming from, but it's not worse than Beatrice's Ahahahahaha!s throughout EP2 (laughter is not a statement and cannot have a truth value).
I don't know if this is discussed to death, but the red truth and their truth values are very trivial in umineko. I feel like Ryu is trying to tell us lessons about subjectivity of "truth", but in concrete evidence things like pretty much every red truth concerning Yasu are absolutely subjective: most of the time they seem to play with the definition of what makes a human (for example Beatrice seems to think a person doesn't need a body), and therefore cannot be considered as absolute objective truths.

In this way the entire concept of "red truth" becomes very ridiculous: with twisted logic that umineko is trying to get us to follow while thinking the riddles, we can pretty much discard every red truth. Even things like claiming someone to be dead in red can be claimed to be false (maybe the subjective definition of "death" varies) or actually point towards the prime-world where the said character is dead, the bastardy options of bypassing the truths are limitless.

Maybe the purple statements could be seen also as some kind of subjective clusterfuck. I don't know if we should trust purple any more than red
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Old 2013-06-20, 21:37   Link #32442
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I don't know if this is discussed to death, but the red truth and their truth values are very trivial in umineko. I feel like Ryu is trying to tell us lessons about subjectivity of "truth", but in concrete evidence things like pretty much every red truth concerning Yasu are absolutely subjective: most of the time they seem to play with the definition of what makes a human (for example Beatrice seems to think a person doesn't need a body), and therefore cannot be considered as absolute objective truths.
In term of gameplay, if it is a game, I still considered that whole "personality death" to be blatant cheating.

But it's not like Umineko to be fair anyways.
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Old 2013-06-20, 21:44   Link #32443
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Maybe the purple statements could be seen also as some kind of subjective clusterfuck. I don't know if we should trust purple any more than red
But the point of the purple is that we can trust it... in the original context where it's used. Because there, it's just a game rule and is carefully and clearly defined, and nobody attempts to subvert its meaning (Erika exploits a definitional loophole, but she doesn't defy the actual rules). Unlike the red, those rules aren't violated in Bern's game. The solution conforms entirely with the rules established.

In the second context where it's used, it's not clear it has any rules to it at all, so it's not even a subjective thing so much as a kinda-pointless thing.
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Old 2013-06-21, 07:05   Link #32444
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I wouldn't call the red worthless, at all. We should know as early as "You are incompetent!" that we are working with some very relative truth values, and it's not like Battler never figured out (again, pretty early on) that there are points for particular phrasing, and intent.

I think most of what we need to know about the red is well summarized by Virgilia in EP5, when she's talking about "Why do dragons sleep in the day" and she wanted you to solve it and etc. etc. While I certainly had hoped the shenanigans would've been pulled off more elegantly (I''d agree in calling EP3 ... well, I wouldn't call it honest, but I wouldn't call it cheating), for us IRL readers of "When They Cry, by Ryukishi!", the red allowed us to come to a pretty precise solution by reasoning. Even if you throw away any kind of body-switching tricks because it's dumb / aren't we still getting over Shmion, you don't have very many reasonable choices besides Shannon with sprinklings of Kanon accomplice, by the end of EP4.

Regarding the purple at the end of EP8, I basically agree with Drifloon - it was a blatant flag for "there is almost certainly a dumb trick at work here", so when Ange / you makes the choice, it's more a choice of whether or not you choose to call it out as such. Like, not acknowledging magic, but acknowledging that this is what magic IS.


... ... ormaybe just lolRyukishi writing ala' "let's throw in a gold text! and never ever use it ever"
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Old 2013-06-21, 16:54   Link #32445
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On the Episode 5 gameboard why can Gertrude and Cornelia use red truth for things they haven't directly witnessed?

They are pieces employed by Bernkastel who isn't the game master, so where does this authority came from?
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Old 2013-06-21, 17:04   Link #32446
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
On the Episode 5 gameboard why can Gertrude and Cornelia use red truth for things they haven't directly witnessed?

They are pieces employed by Bernkastel who isn't the game master, so where does this authority came from?
I think it is because Lambda ALLOWED them to. At the same time she could negate these red truths if she wanted to, as she did with the "from the moment the rain started, the window was not opened even once".
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Old 2013-06-21, 17:55   Link #32447
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I think it is because Lambda ALLOWED them to. At the same time she could negate these red truths if she wanted to, as she did with the "from the moment the rain started, the window was not opened even once".
Allowed them to what? Lamba doesn't control Berns pieces to my understanding. And that red truth doesn't "negate" any other red truth.

So I'm not sure I understand your points.
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Old 2013-06-21, 18:16   Link #32448
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Allowed them to what? Lamba doesn't control Berns pieces to my understanding. And that red truth doesn't "negate" any other red truth.

So I'm not sure I understand your points.
Lambda, as the game master, has control over the red truth with everything that falls outside of the detective's authority, so everything beside what Erika actually could see with her own eyes and things that by using logic were 100% undeniable were in complete control of Lambda. Also that the human side cannot use red truth, is established from EP2 on. BUT as we saw in EP4, the game master may give the human side temporal permission to use the red truth. So the scene in Kinzo's room was such a case, where Lambda granted Dlanor and her assistants the right to use the red truth for things like the door and the window. They could "seal" the door, although not having CLEAR evidence that the door really was closed (e.g. Natsuhi accidently forgetting to close the door was never denied). But when it came to the window, Lambda intentionally "blocked" the red truth for the human side, making Battler's solution possible and crushing the closed room. But since at that point it is was just Lambda vs Bern, it was essentially a big troll from Lambda against Erika (and Bern). With her power over the red truth, she could have stopped Erika from the beginning, but she wanted to make it look more "dramatic" (and giving Piece-Battler a moment to shine finally) and troll Erika a bit.
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Old 2013-06-21, 18:25   Link #32449
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Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are on the same side and are just fucking around, so it's entirely a mute issue.
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Old 2013-06-21, 19:17   Link #32450
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Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are on the same side and are just fucking around, so it's entirely a mute issue.
I think at first they were really fighting though. Lambda wanted to troll Bern & Erika first and later on she plotted with Bern though (ALL of this happens before Battler even joined the game). I am actually quite confident, that they AT LEAST were fighting until Bern gave her blue truths regarding the first twilight. But I am not able to pinpoint the exact moment where they decided to start an alliance and humilate Piece-Beato.

And I personally think that the Kinzo's-study-incident was still in "wartime".
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Old 2013-06-21, 23:24   Link #32451
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You could also explain much of Lambadelta's actions as being a capricious amoral (as opposed to immoral) troll. However, I suspect things are a bit more complicated.

Lambdadelta is secretly on Battler's side helping him find the truth, albeit in her own twisted, capricious, trollish, morally ambiguous way. Lambdadelta knows the truth because she found out from Beato. This does NOT conflict with her relationship with Bernkastel as her objective is more about keeping Bernksatel "glued to the tube" than outright opposing her.
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Old 2013-06-22, 00:01   Link #32452
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Lambdadelta and Bernkastel are on the same side and are just fucking around, so it's entirely a mute issue.
It wasn't a mute issue; even being aware that they're trolling understanding semantics is still important.

Last edited by Ryuudou; 2013-06-22 at 07:21.
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Old 2013-06-22, 01:08   Link #32453
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Things we know about Lambda's objective in Game Mastering ep5:
  • ...
Things we know about Cornelia and Gertrude and what they do:
  • Uhhhh, Cornelia had that one TIP, I guess...
They have somewhere on the order of a dozen or so lines in the entire series between the two of them. Narrow it down to things that say anything about their character or abilities and you might get enough to count on one hand. They work for Dlanor, and Dlanor is like a personification of rules, so they're... helping the rules? I don't know man, they might as well not even be there.
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Old 2013-06-22, 07:05   Link #32454
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That's true. Starting a bit of (large) tangent here now: it's just confusing because it seems like Episode 5 in particular has a meta-world on a level that is below the meta-world that we're used to (where real life survivor Battler is "represented" I think) while still being above the meta-level of that particular game-board (Rokkenjima with the family and Erika). If Dlanor was arguing with piece-Battler in Kinzo's study (because Battler hadn't joined the game at that point) then it wasn't the usual level of meta-world we observe because our familiar meta-Battler was observing this from an even higher point of view (but not participating) when Episode 5 was re-winded back for him, however it still wasn't the game-board because it was a red/blue battle which obviously doesn't take place in the forgery-level narrative that our meta characters normally observe and debate over.

So in the scene about Kinzo's study Bern summons Dlanor to help assist Erika, who is Bern's double, argue with a piece-Battler that Bern herself also controls in a world that is below Bern's level and above Rokenjima's level while using red truth that Bern nor Dlanor nor Gertrude nor Corenila could have objectively known because Lamba "gave" it to them?

How does that even play out? Dlanor is on the same level Bern and co. are, so she is aware of them because she is aware of doll-Beatrice. Did she just suddenly become "aware" that she "knew something she didn't know a moment ago" and attribute to it Lamba? Is Dlanor controlling a piece-Dlanor of herself? In that case wouldn't it violate Knox's 2nd if she (Dlanor in Kinzo's study) was using red (red outside of the knox rules) that she could only have known through her higher-level self on the off-chance that Lamba told her? Also how can Dlanor have a game-board piece that doesn't exist on Rokkenjima but interacts with piece-Battler on some level (because our meta-Battler had no part in that particular debate) in Kinzo's study? Continuing on: Gertrude and Cornelia (to my knowledge) don't even exist at the same level Bern and Lamba do, but still conceptually exist above gameboard-level Rokkenjima; so what about them? Did they just suddenly become aware of new truths without knowing why? How can either of them use red that isn't common canon (like knox rules) without violating Knox's 2nd?

I understand at that point during Episode 5's gameboard progression it was basically just Bern and Lamba masturbating together, but it still needs to be somewhat coherent as it's still Beato's gameboard and futhermore even Bern and Lamba can't violate the rules (like who can use red) of the meta-level they themselves exist in.

Last edited by Ryuudou; 2013-06-22 at 07:27.
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Old 2013-06-22, 11:44   Link #32455
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I understand at that point during Episode 5's gameboard progression it was basically just Bern and Lamba masturbating together
I laughed too much.
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Old 2013-06-22, 14:03   Link #32456
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I think you are seeing EP 5 in an overly complex way.

To start with, it's very strongly suggested that as the Game Master, all red statements regarding the EP5 gameboard are by Lambda's authority. I've always imagined, given their introduction and roles, that Cornelia and Gertrude are the fantasy (kinda) counterparts of the seals used by Erika. You can see them, then, as the natural extension of Dlanor being allowed to participate in the first place, and what you get when you're allowed to apply Decalogue knowledge.

They also heighten the tension by giving Bern's side a higher headcount, and let Ryukishi design yet another squadron of girls in skimpy regalia, so there's that.

As far as I can tell, the Meta space, with red/blue battles, is the same space, on the same level as all the Meta we'd seen prior to that point, with the only difference being that BATTLER had opted out of participating at that point. It is more or less confirmed in the following scene that Battler's piece was being controlled by Lambda during the battle in the study.

Bern controls Erika. They want to destroy the illusion of the Witch, and use reds based on Erika's own investigations and Dlanor's 10 wedges, all of which Lambda allows.

Lambda controls the piece-Beato, and wants to not let either side take the advantage, and be entertained. She accomplishes this by using piece-Battler to propose a ridiculous, but possible, escape plan for Kinzo. It's said that piece-Battler could be variously controlled by Bern or Lambda, but let's not forget that in EP5 Battler is an accomplice almost for certain, Bern considers the fight in the study as a loss, and I don't think we see any moment where Bern directly compels his piece to do anything that's not more or less pushing things along using Erika.

In summary, I'd argue that that there's no real fantasy narrative happening at all in that scene. Hell, Lambda barely tells a fantasy narrative at all, in EP5, opting for something much more like Legend. What I mean by this, for instance, is that she had a mysterious letter appear outside the family conference int he middle of the night, for instance, but did NOT tell an elaborate scene where Beato appears from butterflies, poofs the letter into existence, knocks, cackles maniacally, and poofs away. She just has the letter be there, and is all "ooooh look at that, how'd that get there?! How mysterious!" about it.
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Old 2013-06-22, 20:35   Link #32457
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The wiki implies that Bern is controlling Battler. Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but thank you that all makes a lot of sense.

The thing is though if Gertrude and Cornelia are personifications of Erika's seals (which really does make sense) why can they use red like "Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall" which they can't possibly know even with "authority" over seals on the game-board?
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Old 2013-06-22, 21:26   Link #32458
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The wiki implies that Bern is controlling Battler. Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but thank you that all makes a lot of sense.

The thing is though if Gertrude and Cornelia are personifications of Erika's seals (which really does make sense) why can they use red like "Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall" which they can't possibly know even with "authority" over seals on the game-board?
As I understood it, Bern was in control of Piece-Battler ONLY for the duration of the "Epitaph solving". Aside from that, Piece-Battler was controlled by Lambda, until Battler took over (Battler was in control only for the "No good. no good at all" at the very end of the Episode before the first TP. maybe there was more but it would have been offscreen).
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Old 2013-06-23, 07:08   Link #32459
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The wiki implies that Bern is controlling Battler. Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but thank you that all makes a lot of sense.

The thing is though if Gertrude and Cornelia are personifications of Erika's seals (which really does make sense) why can they use red like "Of those who remain, only Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were in the second floor corridor, while all others were in the dining hall" which they can't possibly know even with "authority" over seals on the game-board?
I like the wiki, but it has occasionally presented uncertain elements as though they were facts. I believe there was a time when Kyrie's page said she was eventually shown to be the culprit of the murders in prime / antagonist of the series.

This is still just my own opinion, and how things make sense to me, but if I had to explain what you're asking about, I'd say that Eiserne Jungfrau are furniture, and Lambda probably allowed them to clarify certain facts about the scene in question to help temper Erika / Bern's reasoning. They obviously can't know everything there is to tell, or they could just provide Erika the answer (because they are HER furniture, after all), but they must be getting their reds from somewhere (remember that even Bern is apparently only able to use Blue at that point), and again, I'd attribute it to Lambda. Cornelia and Gertrude may represent the seals used on the gameboard, but similar to the Siesta's being fantasy counterparts of firearms, their role in the overall, Umineko narrative need not be strictly limited to such.

I'm not sure if it was the best way to write it, but Lambda did provide MOST of the red during that particular argument, and it still serves Ryukishi's narrative wiles to not have the piece-Beato using any red.
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Old 2013-06-23, 08:56   Link #32460
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I like the wiki, but it has occasionally presented uncertain elements as though they were facts.
Heh, you are right. As umineko is very much of a personal interpretation, having a wiki might be bit hard.

As for Lambda and Bern, I had difficult time thinking about their matters as I generally like the theory that meta is completely metaphorical and no magic exists in any form, so it becomes very fast a question of what factors Lambda and Bern symbolize.

How canon is the theory that they were playing the game just to have a giggle? I personally like to think this way.
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