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Old 2013-07-18, 14:31   Link #32521
Renall
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
This is actually a CONFIRMATION that Battler REALLY cared for Shannon back then and didn't just joke around when giving that promise. One could have dismissed the "first love" not meaning Shannon at all, but after that scene in the manga we can be quite sure about it now.
Were there people who thought otherwise? Who else would even have been his first love?
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Old 2013-07-18, 16:47   Link #32522
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Well, Battler has an entire life outside of Rokkenjima, and like Jessica, is said to have been a fairly popular kid.

Anyways, not doubting that Shannon was his first love, but I still don't think it was a very casual commitment, at best.

I am glad about the confirmation of future people' knowledge ... it's implied that the future is somehow aware of Battler's parentage back in EP4, when Gretel seems aware of how Beato's "Is that man even qualified to be my opponent?" argument.

Also, regarding Kyrie's 18 years, I only just noticed - her 18 years ENDED in 1980, when Asumu died, which is what the text literally says.... so I have to assume she's counting six years of Rudolf's man-whoring prior to his engagement to Asumu, and that Ryukishi chose that number of years specifically to add some resonance to the other instances of '18' being an important number.

Or ... just to make the "I'm defeating you with MATH!" bit easier.
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Old 2013-07-18, 17:33   Link #32523
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Well, Battler has an entire life outside of Rokkenjima, and like Jessica, is said to have been a fairly popular kid.

Anyways, not doubting that Shannon was his first love, but I still don't think it was a very casual commitment, at best.
Right, but none of those people are characters. None of them are named or even referenced. The only actual character Battler is shown to have any connection to is Shannon, so the laws of narrative efficiency mean it could only possibly be Shannon he's even talking about. I'm just baffled that somebody would attempt to argue around what was made so incredibly apparent by Ryukishi. It's not like it was a mystery after ep4 or so. Hell, it was barely a mystery in ep1, you were just supposed to casually overlook it.
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Old 2013-07-18, 18:05   Link #32524
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Right, but none of those people are characters. None of them are named or even referenced. The only actual character Battler is shown to have any connection to is Shannon, so the laws of narrative efficiency mean it could only possibly be Shannon he's even talking about. I'm just baffled that somebody would attempt to argue around what was made so incredibly apparent by Ryukishi. It's not like it was a mystery after ep4 or so. Hell, it was barely a mystery in ep1, you were just supposed to casually overlook it.
Yes, it "not" being Shannon could only be possible by using an argument like Erika did in EP8 where she said "George could have killed someone outside rokkenjima, thus he could be a 'culprit'!"

But with the manga now even that is not possible anymore.
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Old 2013-07-19, 04:33   Link #32525
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Right, but none of those people are characters. None of them are named or even referenced. The only actual character Battler is shown to have any connection to is Shannon, so the laws of narrative efficiency mean it could only possibly be Shannon he's even talking about. I'm just baffled that somebody would attempt to argue around what was made so incredibly apparent by Ryukishi. It's not like it was a mystery after ep4 or so. Hell, it was barely a mystery in ep1, you were just supposed to casually overlook it.
Doesn't Battler explicitly describe Shannon as his first love in Episode 3?
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Old 2013-07-19, 07:31   Link #32526
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On the one hand, the ep 8 manga is really touching (and the ep 5 where Battler remembered his promise to Yasu), and I think they are doing a great job of selling the emotional side of the story. Making me feel bad for Kyrie AND Rosa in such a short space of time is hard work.

On the other, it is always so creepy when you realise that all their talk of the golden land equates to Shannon and Kanon talking about AT LEAST killing themselves.

Plus I have to reread the scenes where Shkannon are found dead, because not breathing is hard work...
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Old 2013-07-19, 08:08   Link #32527
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Doesn't Battler explicitly describe Shannon as his first love in Episode 3?
He practically does so in Legend. It gets increasingly explicit as time goes by, but I guess people gloss over it because it's in the "boring" October 4th segments each time? But seriously, the fact that they had a closer relationship prior to Battler's departure is not hidden information. It's sitting right in the open the whole time. Of all the things Ryukishi might be accused of weaseling on, the Battler-Shannon connection most assuredly is not one of them.
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Old 2013-07-21, 19:05   Link #32528
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On the other, it is always so creepy when you realise that all their talk of the golden land equates to Shannon and Kanon talking about AT LEAST killing themselves.
Though Shannon and Kanon always talk about everyone being resurrected when reaching the golden land. This could be easily seen as a hint of Yasu not being the culprit and not intending to kill anyone.

I honestly was quite shocked to find out that large portion of people don't like chiru and consider Yasu terrible antagonist. The most negative thing about chiru was that it wasn't so much a mystery as it was a collection of hints and tools for solving the core of the mystery. I understand if someone considers Ryu a bad writer, but at this point it shouldn't be a surprise for anyone.

Do people hate Yasu because it was predicted beforehand or because of the motive clusterfuck? There are some points that are retarded (like people not noticing the crossdressing) but overall it was foreshadowed since the beginning so it's not like Ryu totally pulled Shkannontrice out of his ass.

In my opinion Yasu is a valid explanation for the boards, even though I strongly believe she is not the real culprit in prime (I guess that's also one point towards hating her, as this theory implies the main antagonist isn't actually the antagonist). If we consider the boards, I don't get why she is so hated as the solution.
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Old 2013-07-21, 22:34   Link #32529
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Do people hate Yasu because it was predicted beforehand or because of the motive clusterfuck? There are some points that are retarded (like people not noticing the crossdressing) but overall it was foreshadowed since the beginning so it's not like Ryu totally pulled Shkannontrice out of his ass.

In my opinion Yasu is a valid explanation for the boards, even though I strongly believe she is not the real culprit in prime (I guess that's also one point towards hating her, as this theory implies the main antagonist isn't actually the antagonist). If we consider the boards, I don't get why she is so hated as the solution.
I don't like her primarily because she doesn't stack up against the character she created. I think she had potential, but Ryukishi didn't realize what he had and didn't expand thematically on some of the critical issues with her character flaws. I'm not sure he even intended that she have some of those character flaws, so I'm basically just reading into the text. The character's existence was certainly properly foreshadowed... the result just wasn't very good, but I concede it could've been with better development.

And... that's the problem with Chiru. Well it's one of them. Here's the others:
  • It's longer than the first four episodes but arguably tells us less about many of its core themes and most central characters. This is a large part of my criticism of the presentation of the story's moral, which I'm starting to think just appears that way because certain concepts were not properly developed.
  • It's disorganized; characters appear and disappear for large gaps of time and development is sprinkled all over the place. Beatrice isn't really in 5, comes back in 6, is largely gone again in 7, and is back in 8; Battler disappears for 7; Ange has a brief role in 6 and a major role in 8 that seems to contradict her two previous appearances. Also characterization changes a lot without much reason for it; as much as people may like Erika, she can be a very inconsistent character. Seriously, compare her in ep5, ep6, and ep8, she acts differently in each in ways that cannot be explained entirely by character development (in no small part because she has none between her "death" in Dawn and reappearance in Twilight).
  • Chiru has a fair bit of filler. Most of it isn't bad and if more of it were like Requiem it would probably not feel like filler at all. This ties back to undeveloped themes; basically if some of that stuff had been fleshed out better the parts that contain it would all feel like they fit properly and have a necessary purpose. That said, I still think ep5 and ep6 could've been one episode.
  • Requiem, though an absolutely necessary episode in the sense that all its content matters, is at least in part out of place located where it is. I think parts of it could've been moved to other episodes as necessary to make certain bits more impactful without seriously damaging the coherency of the whole. Let's be honest, the connections between the three major sections - Will and Lion, Yasu, and the Tea Party - are tenuous at best. All are still good, important sections, but there's no reason they must all be contained n the same episode (and the penultimate one at that).
  • Twilight is blatantly unfinished; as the ep8 manga is demonstrating, there's a lot more content and clarification that was obviously intended for it that just isn't in the VN version. The ending will almost certainly seem better once we actually have the full, complete version of it, but even then it suffers from a lot of the problems Chiru has in general.
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Old 2013-07-22, 01:41   Link #32530
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Count me as amongst those who didn't like Chiru and hate the Yasu culprit theory. Admittedly, a good positive for the former is that Bernkastel is an excellent villain. Hate the Shkannon theory because it plays really loosely with red, feels like just a giant servant conspiracy (a rather boring and cliche solution in the genre), and what happens when you take time to deconstruct it (note that I'm going Evangelion/Watchmen/Puella Magi Madoka Magica grade in terms of deconstruction), what it boils down into.....is not pretty.

How I went about it was by boiling down the love battle into what I felt was the core component, which can be identified by the commonalities. The core commonality IMO, is "lies", some of which can be very cruel, especially the ones regarding Jessica, which ask the question "what did she do to deserve being the victim of the worst of all the lies?"

Assuming a Rosa Prime theory, I think I may have found a way to link Battler and Eva to the cover up, or at least in terms of not letting the world know. Eva was motivated by guilt over her rather heavy contribution to pushing Rosa's mental state over the edge via extensive and cruel abusive treatment as a child. I believe it is stated that Battler knows about Rosa's past since Rudolf has told him about it. IIRC, Rudolf said something about how Rosa as a child was a vastly different person than the Rosa of 1986. All of this of course assumes a "chain of hate" + "PTSD additive factor" + high stress scenario + the word "Beatrice" having all the characteristics of a "trigger"= toxic mental time bomb that got detonated scenario.
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Old 2013-07-22, 04:58   Link #32531
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Admittedly, a good positive for the former is that Bernkastel is an excellent villain.
Arguable. She's good at being EVIL, but she's not a very compelling character because she's being an asshole bitch for the sake of being an asshole bitch and she's motivated by pure malice out of fucking nowhere when she was neutral at worst in the earlier part of Umineko. From EP5 onwards she's so angry and spiteful that she can't really hold it back if she's pushed even slightly, which contradicts earlier characterization and implies that Ryukishi changed her mind about her midway through (which we technically know is true since he's admitted she was originally just gonna be a cameo callback to Higurashi).

And ontop of all that, she doesn't get any sort of comeuppance and her loss at the end of the story doesn't even cause her to learn anything or change as a character.

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Assuming a Rosa Prime theory
Rosa Prime theory is stupid. It's not thematically or symbolically supported in any way and your blue about Eva's motives don't work since Eva was specifically motivated in part by protecting Ange's feelings, which implicates Ange's immediate family. However, that Eva never cracked under pressure and used the truth to hurt Ange despite their extreme bitterness, and that Eva took the secret to her grave for all time, implies that the truth was more hurtful to Eva than it was for Ange. There's only one person on Rokkenjima that Eva would put over her own happiness and heartbreak...
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Old 2013-07-22, 06:08   Link #32532
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Though we can explain her silence with very simple logic

Eva never told the truth because it was harmful directly towards herself: she was somehow involved in the killings thus making her partly at fault

I believe every implication point towards Kyrie, however, her silence is extremely logical if she was involved herself in any way in anything that happened. Eva is smart, and not going to blurt out something harmful towards herself
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Old 2013-07-22, 07:31   Link #32533
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There's only one person on Rokkenjima that Eva would put over her own happiness and heartbreak...
I thought it is actually two people.
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Old 2013-07-22, 08:17   Link #32534
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And ontop of all that, she doesn't get any sort of comeuppance and her loss at the end of the story doesn't even cause her to learn anything or change as a character.
The strangest part of all of this is that we end up getting character growth out of Lambdadelta, the last person I would've expected to get any. Hell, she probably has the most change out of any meta-character short of Battler or Ange. I'm not complaining because I kinda liked it, but why her of all people? It just makes Bern's u-turn into Snidely Whiplash territory even more noticeable.

They sort of try to explain Bern's hatred for Battler in Lambda proclaiming him a Witch of Miracles too, except (1) she was already acting like an asshole before that, and (2) you'd think she'd be well past the point of rising to Lambda's provocations, which was exactly what she was doing there. While screwing with BatBeato to spite Lambda makes sense, being so emotionally invested in it really doesn't.

But hey, Ryukishi pulled out the "lol imma cat arbitrary yo" card, so she can do whatever she wants right?
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Old 2013-07-22, 11:55   Link #32535
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I'm not complaining because I kinda liked it, but why her of all people? It just makes Bern's u-turn into Snidely Whiplash territory even more noticeable.

While screwing with BatBeato to spite Lambda makes sense, being so emotionally invested in it really doesn't.

But hey, Ryukishi pulled out the "lol imma cat arbitrary yo" card, so she can do whatever she wants right?
I don't know, but I found Bern not that unbelievable the way she was written, but we already all know since long ago that my and your (and Aura's) opinion diverge at several points

Bern was clearly written as a very different character when she first appeared in Episode 1 and 2, but a slight change already happened in Episode 3, when she was present at Eva Beatrice's inauguration and seduced Ange at the very end.
Still I'd say, even in retroactive continuity thinking, it doesn't make her actions in the first 2 Episodes necessarily incoherent. You could see her as being still way less involved in Beato's game but loosing herself over the course of investing more and more into it. If we simply take her meta-board characterization, and not any larger implications of her being a symbol for certain thought-processes surrounding the meta-narrative, then her sudden break of composure in EP5 makes sense in terms of her not having to restrain herself by appearing impartial anymore. Beato has been removed from the game and as long as she keeps Battler in the loop she has endless potential for enjoyment. The problem comes when Battler is moving closer to a solution because it removes her from any possible enjoyment of the game.

It has always been more about the weird sexual tension between the two witches (you could even count the things said in EP1 and 2 technically) and every other participant merely exists as a plaything or a hindrance to their pleasure. It's also hinted that Lambda finds it somehow easier to move on, which can be constructed from several ideas about what they represent (miracles vs. certainty) or any possible background of Higurashi as well, but becomes virtually unimportant in the grander scheme.
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Old 2013-07-22, 13:54   Link #32536
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Arguable. She's good at being EVIL, but she's not a very compelling character because she's being an asshole bitch for the sake of being an asshole bitch and she's motivated by pure malice out of fucking nowhere when she was neutral at worst in the earlier part of Umineko. From EP5 onwards she's so angry and spiteful that she can't really hold it back if she's pushed even slightly, which contradicts earlier characterization and implies that Ryukishi changed her mind about her midway through (which we technically know is true since he's admitted she was originally just gonna be a cameo callback to Higurashi).
While true, she did state in episode one that she was the cruelest witch in the entire universe back in EP1. I think her malice could be explained with her being bored with how slow Battler was and as stated in the tips, she hates people that never learn.
I actually really liked Bernkastel up until ep 8. She was too predictable in that one, but up to and including ep 7, I found her amazing.
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Old 2013-07-22, 14:05   Link #32537
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While true, she did state in episode one that she was the cruelest witch in the entire universe back in EP1.
Yea, but her cruelty was pretty much chalked up to her utter apathy, which dissolvesin Chiru.

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Eva never told the truth because it was harmful directly towards herself: she was somehow involved in the killings thus making her partly at fault
That kinda directly contradicts EP4's entire message.
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Old 2013-07-22, 14:25   Link #32538
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I thought it is actually two people.
Even if we discount a lot of his own words that makes George suspicous; Hideyoshi's basically a paperweight, aside from a somewhat jarring scene from Ep5. Eva likely has nothing to cover for him beside the fact he was shortsighted enough to let his company be swept from him underfoot, and that's public knowledge. Her son's engagement to a servant would be more embarassing, especially when he could fall into suspicion for it. I agree she'd cover for those two for herself, but there is very little to suggest Hideyoshi wasn't the most innocent(or uninvolved) person on the island.
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Old 2013-07-25, 09:38   Link #32539
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Yea, but her cruelty was pretty much chalked up to her utter apathy, which dissolvesin Chiru.
Was it really? I don't know I always read the "the world's most cruel witch" pretty literally towards what we later got to see and her demeanor in EP1-3 as simply holding back. It's not for nothing that she does not title herself as 一番無惨 (most cruel = emotionless) or 冷酷 (=coldhearted) but 一番残酷 (most cruel = gruesome, brutal). This isn't even going that far away if we connect her to Higurashi, as in that case she was raised out of bloodshed and carnage.

Though I still see her as a multi-layered and at least dai seems to agree with that portrayal if you look at the image-song they created for Bernkastel.

Spoiler for Human Nature is Fundamentally Good lyrics:


And in a way it is true, at least when looking at Umineko from the perspective of performance and theater again, which is a lens that the series itself uses often enough (most exhaustively in EP7 and 8).
Bernkastel fundamentally plays a role that is important to the central working of the whole series, if she wasn't present people would not pursue the truth any further. Exactly by showing things that are more gruesome, more cruel and more heartless do people carry on.
Looking back, if it hadn't been for her playing the role of the "evil witch" people would have given up at several points. If she hadn't torn Ange apart Battler would have not regained his fighting spirit; if she hadn't put that curse on Ange she might have just eternally stayed in the illusion of fighting at the side her brother; if she hadn't played the most vile and despicable cards in EP5 through Erika, Battler might have given up on the game; EP6 posed a happy end, yet she pushed further towards the truth by forcing people to look at an explanation that lacked any heart sparking the wish to create one with a heart; in EP8 people were ready to just give into illusion but she pushed further, maybe too far, but she forced people to confront their doubts.
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Old 2013-07-25, 09:54   Link #32540
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That would be nice if it were true, but I'm not sure there's enough in Chiru to really prove it. I think that was the idea in the first four episodes; the way she screws with Ange's head to motivate her seems clearly motivated specifically to achieve an end and she's very reserved in her emotional state while doing so. I really only take issue with her in ep6 on, where she starts appearing to nurse a serious grudge that both clouds her judgment and makes her less a manipulative aspect of the meta-world and more of a bully who is tired of not getting her way and wants to show the people who have upset her just how much she can screw them over.

Saying "well if she hadn't done x, people wouldn't have kept going" isn't a particularly strong argument, even when it's true. If her point is "I have to play the villain to seek truth because nobody else is willing to do it, because I'm the only one with the experience and ethical flexibility to be willing to push it that far," then the story just doesn't give her enough face time and justification to spin her that way. She comes across in Chiru as an increasingly petty dick who wants to ruin people for upstaging her. I'm not sure I'd be fond of that portrayal regardless (even though I would find it better) because it implies that you have to abandon decorum and compassion to seek Truth. If Battler's counterpoint to that had been "No, you can seek Truth without going that far," then fine, that's a pretty good conflict to set up for the end. But it... wasn't that.
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