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Old 2013-07-31, 07:57   Link #32621
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
It only makes sense for Nanjo to be Yasu's accomplice if Rosa is Yasu=Beatrice.
Why? Why not when Yasu = shkanontrice? hm?
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Old 2013-07-31, 08:11   Link #32622
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Rosa is about 35 years old. How can she be the baby from 19 years ago? Also, Maria is 9 years old. If Rosa is a 19 year old Yasu, then she would have given birth to Maria when she was 10 years old. She would have been younger than George, and he and the entire rest of the family would have known this. Yet we have never seen any indication of it in canon, and we have seen things which contradict it clearly.

Also, we do know who Rosa's mother is: Kinzo's wife, the same as the mother of Krauss, Eva, and Rudolf. Of course, we don't have it in red for any of them. Nonetheless...

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

Have you got any clues to support Rosa being 19 years old and not Mrs Ushiromiya's child? And when, exactly, would Rosa have been roleplaying with Kanon and Shannon?
Admittedly, there are no clues pertaining to Rosa being 19 years old nor Mrs.Ushiromiya's child.

But it's clear Rosa had often access to the mansion, and it's clear that Shannon had been serving there for a while. But I think this argument I've had with everyone has allowed me to reach the Truth of all Truths.

Yes, without love it can't be seen.

Shannon is the culprit of the Umineko games.

I'm not supporting "Shakanontrice", I'm saying Shannon and Shannon alone is the culprit.

I present the theory that Kanon, like Yasu is a figment of Shannon's imagination.


This is my list for working out the "17 people riddle."(Which implied there's only 16 people)

I'll order the lists in Red to Blue to "Gold"

Original List of people on the Island.

Kinzo 1
Krauss 2
Natsuhi 3
Hideyoshi 4
George 5
Rudolf 6
Kyrie 7
Rosa 8
Maria 9
Genji 10
Shannon 11
Kanon 12
Gohda 13
Kumasawa 14
Nanjo 15
Battler 16
Eva 17
Jessica 18]


Let's make a list that includes Yasu, takes out "Shannon" and "Kanon" and includes Erika.

Kinzo 1
Krauss 2
Natsuhi 3
Hideyoshi 4
George 5
Rudolf 6
Kyrie 7
Rosa 8
Maria 9
Genji 10
Yasu 11
Erika 12
Gohda 13
Kumasawa 14
Nanjo 15
Battler 16
Eva 17
Jessica 18


To accomplish this, we'd have to take Kinzo off the island.

New List:

Krauss 1
Natsuhi 2
Hideyoshi 3
George 4
Rudolf 5
Kyrie 6
Rosa 7
Maria 8
Genji 9
Yasu 10
Erika 11
Gohda 12
Kumasawa 13
Nanjo 14
Battler 15
Eva 16
Jessica 17


However, it says "if" you join us there's 17. Implying that originally, there was only 16 people.
The Shkanontrice solution would be to eliminate Erika.

Sorry, but you can't do that and claim Erika "exists".


This is the Answer:Real List of people who attended the family conference:


Krauss 1
Natsuhi 2
Hideyoshi 3
George 4
Rudolf 5
Kyrie 6
Rosa 7
Maria 8
Genji 9
Shannon 10
Gohda 11
Kumasawa 12
Nanjo 13
Battler 14
Eva 15
Jessica 16


I'll settle Knox's 8th and present evidence that Kanon never existed. Primarily, the 3rd game. In Jessica's room, Kanon's "corpse" disappeared. And in that same game, a "alien" Kanon appeared and only Shannon seemingly knew this alien's weakness or for that matter its existence.

It was also mentioned that Yasu had a conversation with Rosa, with Rosa having guaranteed "Yasu"(Shannon) that Battler would return. and that she was devastated when Battler in fact didn't return.


In concurrence with the "multiple personalities" theory, Beatrice was created to represent the fact that 6 years later, Shannon still hadn't let go of all her feelings for Battler.

The hole in my revision might seem to be the fact that Kanon and Jessica had a connection, but what if Jessica acknowledged Kanon as an imaginary friend? Shannon created her "Kanon" persona for Jessica's sake, who is her best friend who also hasn't experienced love.
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Old 2013-07-31, 08:26   Link #32623
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Happy frickin' birthday...you are basically agreeing to the Yasu-theory and only changing it by saying that Yasu is imagined instead of Shannon.
So where exactly does your theory differ?
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Old 2013-07-31, 08:34   Link #32624
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
However, it says "if" you join us there's 17. Implying that originally, there was only 16 people.
The Shkanontrice solution would be to eliminate Erika.

Sorry, but you can't do that and claim Erika "exists".
The red about there being 17 people including Erika only applies for the 6th game. For EP1-4 it is no more than 17 humans and for EP5 it is the same amount as in EP1-4 plus Erika and claiming that "The Shkanontrice solution would be to eliminate Erika" is garbage, because the number of people in your "real" list is exactly the same as the one of Shkanontrice interpretation, because shannon/kanon/beatrice together are considered "1 person".


Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I'll settle Knox's 8th and present evidence that Kanon never existed. Primarily, the 3rd game. In Jessica's room, Kanon's "corpse" disappeared. And in that same game, a "alien" Kanon appeared and only Shannon seemingly knew this alien's weakness or for that matter its existence.
Wrong. The so-called "Alien Kanon" only appeard in EP2.
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Old 2013-07-31, 08:42   Link #32625
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Happy frickin' birthday...you are basically agreeing to the Yasu-theory and only changing it by saying that Yasu is imagined instead of Shannon.
So where exactly does your theory differ?
It differs in that Shannon is a "real" human being, with Yasu and Kanon being nothing more than figments of her imagination. Partially concocted with Rosa and her guilt of Kuwadorian Beatrice.

In short, this is a mystery. Whereas if there actually were "real", alternative peoples it would be a fantasy.
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Old 2013-07-31, 08:50   Link #32626
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By the way... Erika does exist. There was a person named Erika Furudo. What happened to her is as unknown as anyone else in that area on that weekend; hence, since it is not impossible to imagine Erika could be present in the catbox, it is possible to put her there as a valid living human. How she is characterized is probably an invention of Bernkastel. But her TIP assuredly suggests she did exist at some point. It's very unlikely she survived to even reach Rokkenjima in the "Prime" universe, but we really don't know. That aside, speculating on whether Erika exists IRL misses the entire point of Erika's introduction to the series. I don't much like her as a character, but there's a purpose to her existence that has nothing whatsoever to do with how plausible it is that she's real.

Also: "Shannon" was never a real human being. "Shannon" is a pseudonym for a human being who works for the family. It isn't her real name. None of the Fukuin servant names are real names. There has always been a person "behind" Shannon or Kanon, because that's the very definition of the role that they play. Whether you believe them to be separate or the same, their root identity isn't "Shannon the servant" or "Kanon the servant." There's a human being with a normal name in there. Bear in mind "Yasu" is also a nickname; we never actually learn her full name with absolute certainty... although you'd think people in the future would know. I mean, Ange should know.
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Old 2013-07-31, 08:54   Link #32627
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I'd say the name is "Ikuko".
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Old 2013-07-31, 13:37   Link #32628
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Quote:
According to Virgilia, Beatrice loses nothing whether the epitath is solved or not. In other words, we can make the proposition that the gold never belonged to Kanon, Shannon, Yasu, Beatrice in the first place.
You're misquoting things again, you incompetent excuse for a witch.

This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.
The gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.
Whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, this child stands nothing to gain at all.
Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.

That is all Virgilia has to say on the matter. She never uses the terms 'has nothing to lose.'


Quote:
If Yasu only exists as one body, then how can Kanon and Shannon exist in front of the cousins at the same time? As they are shown to do so in multiple occasions! How can they successfully change their clothing from male to female and vice versa seemingly within minutes, all without the cousins noticin a thing?

If Yasu exists, she does so outside of the mansion, never to be seen or acknowledged by the other 17 humans. In other words, she's the 18th human on Rokkenjima.

If she orders Genji and Kuwasawa, she does so strictly from Kuwadorian. It wouldn't be farfetched to imagine a private line that only connects the mansion and Kuwadorian that the three of them have access to.
What are you talking about? Shannon and Kanon are never witnessed at the same time by anyone in the story with a reliable viewpoint. There's more to magic scenes than if there's supernatural occurances going on.

By the way, anyone who's worked multiple roles in a stage theatre can tell you that switching costumes is literally nothing. I was in Drama in high school and switched between elaborate male and female costumes in less than three minutes.

Your theory isn't logical. Genji and Kumasawa are known to be part of Yasu's secret and be in on her schemes; she doesn't need to command them by phone, just tell them something when they're alone in the halls, it's not complicated. Furthermore, Yasu wouldn't be an 18th human anymore than Beatrice would because she doesn't bring an extra body to the table

Quote:
According to the episodes, the mirror sealed the spirit that is Beatrice, the witch who rules over Rokkenjima in the night. It's entirely possible that it's a roleplay between Rosa and Shannon(as well as the other servants) and breaking the mirror is a precursor to the "spirit" that is Beatrice..

As I hypotheize for the first question, I believe Rosa may have been roleplaying with Shannon and Kanon. Keep in mind that Rosa lived on the mansion longer than any of the other siblings and was partially responsible for the death of Kuwadorian Beatrice.

She might believe in the epitath basically more than anybody.
Except Rosa and Maria aren't on Rokkenjima in like....any of those scenes.

Quote:
I postulate that Rosa is Yasu, IE: The child from 19 years ago. We know that Kinzo is Rosa's father, but we don't know who her mother is. She could be the result of incest from the Kuwadorian Beatrice.
Rosa was 12 years old when the Baby from 19 years ago was born, you idiot. She met her mother and has guilt over killing her.

Quote:
But you(or was it Aura) claimed that the man from 19 years ago couldn't have been the culprit! Now it's a 180? Fine, in that case doesn't that validate my theory that Eva knows the truth about Natsuhi and had George act out the part?
I SAID NO SUCH THING. I said 'the man from 19 years ago on the phone DOES NOT NECESSARILY have to be the culprit'. If you can't follow our basic words, you have no point taking part in an Umineko-styled debate.

Quote:
If Rosa is Beatrice, then everything still fits. Including her being Yasu.

When Battler solves the epitath, he becomes the ruler of Rokkenjima, no? So why does he feel obligated in any way to play along with Yasu's game? Knowing Battler's personality, he'd ask Yasu to play a game that doesn't involve framing Natsuhi.(or for that matter, any of the siblings/cousins).
Rosa can't be Yasu, she has none of Yasu's attributes. Battler could be going with Yasu's plan for literally any reason. He's not necessarily as innocent as you believe him to be. That's the entire point of Black Battler; to show the worst possible interpretation to demonstrate that Yasu (or whoever is writing the Gameboards, doesn't matter) is white-washing and idealizing Battler.

Quote:
In that case, Kinzo's corpse also counts as a Human. Even if he's dead and unable to participate, he's still a "human" on the "island". So if you argue that Erika raises the "counter" by 1, then there's 18 Humans on Rookenjima.


Which was later denied by both Beatrice and Battler in the meta world. Which means obviously Kinzo doesn't exist. Neither does Erika.

She didn't swim ashore from some tragic ship wreck and made it to the island. Or even if she did, she wouldn't have the strength to make it to the mansion on her own power.
In End and Dawn, Erika was alive and capable of taking actions and being a force of agency. She was human. Her actual fate in Rokkenjima Prime is utterly irrelevant because the Forgeries do not have to reflect the real world, just like Eva can be killed even though we know she survives in Ange's world. The Forgeries have the capability to depart from the truth and do not necessarily tell us anything factual. The Gameboards are self-contained narratives and you need to accept that.

Quote:
Dr. Nanjo wouldn't deliberately mistake a real corpse for a fake.

Unless of course if he was Yasu's accomplice. So it goes back to what you believe. Do you believe the entire Ushiromiya family is delusional and saw a body(either Shannon or Kanon's) that doesn't exist? Particularly in the 1st game we saw Shannon and Kanon together when the family first makes it there)


It only makes sense for Nanjo to be Yasu's accomplice if Rosa is Yasu=Beatrice.
FALSE. Nanjo has been lying for years about Kinzo being alive; you don't even need to invoke Yasu/Beatrice to get him to lie about medical facts. Yasu, whoever they are, can motivate Nanjo simply through money. He needs it, and he is willing to lie to people to get money. He did this as far back as when he first met Kinzo.

Quote:
It's crucial to note the baby in that story was strapped and had padding. We also don't know how far the baby fell.

We don't have that level of detail with Yasu, but a cliff is higher, the infant is probably younger and less developed. From the time you come out of your womb until maybe 5-6 years old, your bones are still forming and you're as soft as tissue.

So is it possible? I surrender to you that it's possible. Probable? Eh, that's a tougher sell.
You realize the baby was being shielded by the servant Natsuhi pushed, right?
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Old 2013-07-31, 16:34   Link #32629
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You're misquoting things again, you incompetent excuse for a witch.

This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.
The gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.
Whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, this child stands nothing to gain at all.
Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.

That is all Virgilia has to say on the matter. She never uses the terms 'has nothing to lose.'
But it also stands to reason that she has nothing to lose. It's argued that Beatrice(Yasu) was in possession of the gold, but what if she wasn't? Kinzo proclaimed that Beatrice the Elder gave him the gold.

It's also said that 'Beatrice' would reclaim the gold, does that mean that Kinzo recognizes Yasu as 'Beatrice' and handed her the gold?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
What are you talking about? Shannon and Kanon are never witnessed at the same time by anyone in the story with a reliable viewpoint. There's more to magic scenes than if there's supernatural occurances going on.
True as that may be, the fact that the disguises are different is a fact. If they were paying attention, they'd surely notice some differences right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
By the way, anyone who's worked multiple roles in a stage theatre can tell you that switching costumes is literally nothing. I was in Drama in high school and switched between elaborate male and female costumes in less than three minutes.
But this is a "real life" scenario in Umineko, where surely the characters are moving from one destination to another. It's not like Yasu can keep herself locked up in the servant's room to change whenever she wants to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
Your theory isn't logical. Genji and Kumasawa are known to be part of Yasu's secret and be in on her schemes; she doesn't need to command them by phone, just tell them something when they're alone in the halls, it's not complicated. Furthermore, Yasu wouldn't be an 18th human anymore than Beatrice would because she doesn't bring an extra body to the table
But if Yasu is a different being than Shannon, Kanon or Beatrice then it becomes a probability. After all, the character 'Yasu' isn't defined in the red text and we usually concur her to be Clair right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
Except Rosa and Maria aren't on Rokkenjima in like....any of those scenes.
But it was shown that Yasu had that conversation with Rosa right? If Rosa wasn't on Rokkenjima then I present the possibility that they conversed through mail. Yasu then played this out from a fantasical perspective as if she were talking to a character.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
Rosa was 12 years old when the Baby from 19 years ago was born, you idiot. She met her mother and has guilt over killing her.
When Rosa met the Kuwadorian Beatrice, it was clear that she had no idea of the outside world whatsoever. It was then that Rosa led her away from Kuwadorian unfortunately to her death.

Isn't it kind of interesting that both the Kuwadorian Beatrice and the baby from 19 years ago fell off a cliff? I purpose that the Kuwadorian Beatrice was Yasu! 19 years ago, Yasu died.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
I SAID NO SUCH THING. I said 'the man from 19 years ago on the phone DOES NOT NECESSARILY have to be the culprit'. If you can't follow our basic words, you have no point taking part in an Umineko-styled debate.
But what motive does the 'man' from 19 years ago have for making the call? A frame of revenge on Natushi? Wouldn't he want to see Natsuhi's reaction? The drama play itself out? Logic suggests that the man from 19 years ago was on Rokkenjima that day, and that he was an active participant.I used George-Eva as a possible connection.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
Rosa can't be Yasu, she has none of Yasu's attributes. Battler could be going with Yasu's plan for literally any reason. He's not necessarily as innocent as you believe him to be. That's the entire point of Black Battler; to show the worst possible interpretation to demonstrate that Yasu (or whoever is writing the Gameboards, doesn't matter) is white-washing and idealizing Battler.
I honestly believe that any person can commit a crime in real life. The only difference between the innocent and the guilty, is that the innocent haven't committed a crime.


However, Battler was the detective and the only exception is the 5th game. The detective can't be the culprit

And I don't see how Battler's character is white-washed. He's a pervert, and to be honest he's nowhere near Kyrie's intellect. But, he truly has compassion for his family members and would never murder them so horribly like in the games!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
In End and Dawn, Erika was alive and capable of taking actions and being a force of agency. She was human. Her actual fate in Rokkenjima Prime is utterly irrelevant because the Forgeries do not have to reflect the real world, just like Eva can be killed even though we know she survives in Ange's world. The Forgeries have the capability to depart from the truth and do not necessarily tell us anything factual. The Gameboards are self-contained narratives and you need to accept that.
Even if I accept that, they must have some meaning right? Is there a prequel to the games that I'm unaware of?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
FALSE. Nanjo has been lying for years about Kinzo being alive; you don't even need to invoke Yasu/Beatrice to get him to lie about medical facts. Yasu, whoever they are, can motivate Nanjo simply through money. He needs it, and he is willing to lie to people to get money. He did this as far back as when he first met Kinzo.
True as that may be, every time he makes a misdiagnosis as a practicing physician, he's committing medical malpractice. It literally costs him millions. He had better be certain his ass is covered.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Auratwilight
You realize the baby was being shielded by the servant Natsuhi pushed, right?
No, I didn't know that and I'll accept it, since I've no doubt you speak the truth.
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Old 2013-07-31, 16:46   Link #32630
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If all of this is a troll attempt, then you are a genius.

But if not...
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Old 2013-07-31, 16:50   Link #32631
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But it also stands to reason that she has nothing to lose. It's argued that Beatrice(Yasu) was in possession of the gold, but what if she wasn't? Kinzo proclaimed that Beatrice the Elder gave him the gold.

It's also said that 'Beatrice' would reclaim the gold, does that mean that Kinzo recognizes Yasu as 'Beatrice' and handed her the gold?
According to EP7, yes.

But remember, Beatrice is spinning a yarn. She doesn't need to reclaim the gold anymore than she needs to revive. She has nothing to gain after all.

Quote:
True as that may be, the fact that the disguises are different is a fact. If they were paying attention, they'd surely notice some differences right?
Looking different is the whole point of a disguise.

Quote:
But this is a "real life" scenario in Umineko, where surely the characters are moving from one destination to another. It's not like Yasu can keep herself locked up in the servant's room to change whenever she wants to.
Why not? There are very few instances where Yasu needs to switch identities quickly, especially with her tendency to kill off either Shannon or Kanon very early. Shannon dies in the 1st Twilight of EP1, Kanon dies in the 2nd Twilight of EP2, both die in the First Twilight of EP3, they're never really seen by the children much in EP4 and the adults are clearly in on it since they're lying, etc.

Quote:
But if Yasu is a different being than Shannon, Kanon or Beatrice then it becomes a probability. After all, the character 'Yasu' isn't defined in the red text and we usually concur her to be Clair right?
I define Yasu to be the sum of her parts, not a distinct entity. Clair is, according to the TIPS, just a doll that Yasu is speaking through.

Quote:
But it was shown that Yasu had that conversation with Rosa right? If Rosa wasn't on Rokkenjima then I present the possibility that they conversed through mail. Yasu then played this out from a fantasical perspective as if she were talking to a character.
Provide some evidence that this is the case. It's completely unsubstantiated.

Also, Beatrice the Witch is restrained to Rokkenjima. Shannon and Kanon have the same sort of issue. Rosa does not.

Quote:
When Rosa met the Kuwadorian Beatrice, it was clear that she had no idea of the outside world whatsoever. It was then that Rosa led her away from Kuwadorian unfortunately to her death.

Isn't it kind of interesting that both the Kuwadorian Beatrice and the baby from 19 years ago fell off a cliff? I purpose that the Kuwadorian Beatrice was Yasu! 19 years ago, Yasu died.
No.

Yasu was raised as a servant. Both of them falling off a cliff is just one of those instances of synchronicity that lead to Kinzo's insanity. He even laments over the Baby from 19 Years Ago falling off of the baby just like Beatrice did, like the fates are toying with him.

Also, the fact of the matter is that Natsuhi was handed a baby 19 years ago that fell off a cliff. No matter how you splice it, too cliff falls happened. Your argument doesn't even help your case.

Quote:
And I don't see how Battler's character is white-washed. He's a pervert, and to be honest he's nowhere near Kyrie's intellect. But, he truly has compassion for his family members and would never murder them so horribly like in the games!
It is strongly implied that the initial message bottles were written before the incident. Within the message bottles, it is remarked how Battler is the same as he always was, but If the Message Bottles are written by Yasu pre-Family Conference, SHE HAS NO IDEA WHAT 18 YEAR OLD BATTLER IS LIKE. She just aged up 12 year old Battler and idealized him to be her white prince, right down to the outfit. It's the Battler of her dreams, not the Battler that necessarily exists.

Quote:
Even if I accept that, they must have some meaning right? Is there a prequel to the games that I'm unaware of?
What are you talking about? The gameboards don't need to be TRUE to have MEANING. The same goes for each of the Fantasy scenes WITHIN the gameboards. You're being tasked to find the truth via symbolic storytelling.

Quote:
True as that may be, every time he makes a misdiagnosis as a practicing physician, he's committing medical malpractice. It literally costs him millions. He had better be certain his ass is covered.
Who's going to sue him? No one outside of Rokkenjima's gonna hear about it and anyone who can call him on it is probably responsible for buying him off in the first place.
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Old 2013-07-31, 17:57   Link #32632
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It has been a long time since I posted here. I reread the first episode of Umineko and something about the credits made me wonder about something.

The credits states that the only thing that could be found was a piece of Maria's jaw but nothing else. As well makes no mention of any of the other ushiromiya family's corpses(if there are any).

While I understand that it is a hint on the nature of the explosives that created the catbox. When I read episode 7 the first time which basically confirmed that there is a bomb, I assumed that the bomb destroyed most of Maria's body but left the piece of jaw since another interpretation didn't occur to me at the time.

I wonder instead, if it is more likely that the culprit killed Maria via severe head trauma which resulted in a piece of her jaw being broken off at a location not within the radius of the bomb? Severe head trauma seems like common MO within the stories, not far fetched to think even the corpses in shed had pieces of their jaw broken off. Also a common MO in the story that Maria is always treated the most kindly in terms of deaths by the culprit in the stories. Even in the final scene that Maria was getting along with Beatrice before the bomb went off.

Furthermore that there seems to be intact piece of jaw that can be found but the rest of her body cannot indicate that someone tried to cover up her death by putting her body in the vicinity of the explosion while where Maria died she left behind a piece of her jaw? The questionable tea party in episode 7 seems to indicate that the bomb was used for a cover up and the whole incident was a huge cover up.


Or am I putting too much thought into that minor detail and an explosion of the magnitude that was described can really destroy that much of a body but still keep a small piece of it left. Just wondering on what others thought on the topic.
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Old 2013-07-31, 21:08   Link #32633
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**Sips tea** I resign Clearly, I've lost.
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Old 2013-08-01, 00:12   Link #32634
Witch of Uncertainty
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post

Or am I putting too much thought into that minor detail and an explosion of the magnitude that was described can really destroy that much of a body but still keep a small piece of it left. Just wondering on what others thought on the topic.
Well, I have no idea, but I personally doubt that it's any hint of what happened to Maria, rather than just a plot device to explain how everything was utterly destroyed.
Let's all hope it wasn't Erika who went on a rampage a la Episode 6 that caused the only-recoverable jaw.

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Old 2013-08-01, 07:53   Link #32635
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"The life that is denied by its mother cannot exist"

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Old 2013-08-01, 10:34   Link #32636
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Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Or she did, and Battler is the one who screwed up somehow... but he'd have to have screwed up really badly.
Personally, I think it's just about the best justification for Tohya's amnesia that there could be.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Looking back, if it hadn't been for her playing the role of the "evil witch" people would have given up at several points.
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That would be nice if it were true, but I'm not sure there's enough in Chiru to really prove it.
Does no one remember this part from the EP8 Tea Party?

Bernkastel: "......I hope we can find another charming tale like this one."
Lambdadelta: "Next time, I hope you aren't playing the villain again, Bern."
Bernkastel: "You think so? Being the bad guy was pretty fun."

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Battler's involvement is highly likely due to (A) his carefree behavior shortly after the victims were discovered and (B) it being an explanation to his sudden change in character at the end when Natsuhi has her nervous breakdown.
I still contend that it was hinted he already knew the way to the gold before "searching" for it with Erika.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
His 駄目だ。全然駄目だ would not be the usual "it's useless. it's all useless" but rather a "this is wrong. this is completely wrong,"
Wow, yeah that makes perfect sense.
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Old 2013-08-01, 10:56   Link #32637
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I still contend that it was hinted he already knew the way to the gold before "searching" for it with Erika.
The fact that he was "controlled" by Bern at that point in the story is not helping that though.


We also already know that no one in the story managed to solve the epitaph completely by oneself. Even Eva needed multiple hints by others until she managed to do it.

Battler being helped by "Kinzo" could be indication that he was helped at that point by someone else, that means only in finding out that the statue looked different all of a sudden (which was hard to see because it was the middle of the night). Solving the actual epitaph is something he probably really did with Erika.
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Old 2013-08-01, 11:15   Link #32638
Renall
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Does no one remember this part from the EP8 Tea Party?

Bernkastel: "......I hope we can find another charming tale like this one."
Lambdadelta: "Next time, I hope you aren't playing the villain again, Bern."
Bernkastel: "You think so? Being the bad guy was pretty fun."
I'm well aware of that conversation, but one line doesn't suddenly prove that Bern was acting the whole time. There's absolutely no evidence of that for the majority of Chiru, and she acts like a petty self-invested asshole for no reason from Dawn straight through to Twilight. Having somebody announce out of the blue what their real motivation was is not a justifiable twist.

I do think this is probably what Bern should have been doing, and it's supported by her initial trajectory in the first four episodes. But it's a crock of shit for Ryukishi to suggest she was just playing along otherwise when she's given almost no rational reason to do so. There's also nothing to suggest when she started "playing the villain" or why. Arguably her only purpose for doing so is to shape the path of the narrative with Lambda in such a fashion as to bring the story to its close. Except:
  • We're told repeatedly in ep1-4 that this is the exact opposite of what Lambda wants out of this; and
  • Even assuming Lambda did change her mind, why would Bern cooperate with her on this? What's Bern getting out of this? Why would Bern do anything in concert with Lambda instead of trying to piss her off? Isn't that their entire relationship? Hell, in this very scene she's intentionally inflicting harm on Lambda while "helping" her.
So yes, she said that, but there's no reason for her to have lost her cool so many times or exposed herself to so many defeats if all she really wanted to do is fake being the bad guy so that Battler and Beatrice could win and Ange could do whatever Ange does.

I mean for Genius Battler at least there's repeated hints in ep6 and one in ep8. I've tried looking for something to suggest Bern isn't serious about her various efforts in Chiru and I can't really find anything. For example, I don't see why she'd be so aggressive about hurting Clair and Lion, then trying to outright kill Lion, then happily trying to kill Lion and Will, to the point that Lambda had to rescue the two of them. Or why she's deliberately trolling Ange to death in the ep7 Tea Party when she has a much more subtle and creative way of trolling Ange into agreeing with her (and Erika) in ep8.

It just doesn't really add up, and one line can't patch that. Unless it's for comedy, like that one ending of Clue. Plus, it's possible to read that line as Bern reflecting on the role she did end up playing (and all the fun she had sincerely doing it) rather than saying "oh yeah that whole time I was just fuckin' with ya." The text would support this second interpretation.
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Old 2013-08-02, 00:07   Link #32639
Ryuudou
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Edit: nvm.
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Old 2013-08-02, 04:07   Link #32640
Drifloon
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I think that thing in the EP8 tea party was just a bit of meta-meta-commentary, really. The fourth wall was already thoroughly broken by that point, and right after that line they say they'll meet again "when something else cries". So I think that they were just commenting on their roles in Umineko as a whole; Lambda is hoping that Bern will be on the side of good again in the next game, like she was in Higurashi, while Bern is saying that it was kind of fun to be cast as the villain for a change. So it is basically just a commentary on how Rika and Miyoko are reused from game to game, but appearing in different forms each time. I'm sure they'll be reinvented again for the next WTC.
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