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Old 2013-08-02, 04:11   Link #32641
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
The fact that he was "controlled" by Bern at that point in the story is not helping that though.
Taken at face value, Piece Battler was fighting against Bern the whole time in EP5... so either she doesn't really "control" him in any way that we find meaningful, or she had some weird plan for him that we don't even understand (which could include anything- including him knowing the way to the gold).

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
We also already know that no one in the story managed to solve the epitaph completely by oneself. Even Eva needed multiple hints by others until she managed to do it.
I've never thought that Battler solving the epitaph beforehand was the most likely explanation for why he'd have known the way. More like he was shown or told the way beforehand.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Battler being helped by "Kinzo" could be indication that he was helped at that point by someone else, that means only in finding out that the statue looked different all of a sudden (which was hard to see because it was the middle of the night). Solving the actual epitaph is something he probably really did with Erika.
So the person got Battler to hide the fact he was being helped just with gestures? If such a person already knew the way and was helping Batter get there, why help him then only and not earlier as well?

My main questions are:

What was Battler actually thinking and doing during the span of time that he was not having a vision of Kinzo?

Why did Battler lie? Why are Battler's thoughts at that time hidden to us?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I'm well aware of that conversation, but one line doesn't suddenly prove that Bern was acting the whole time...
I wasn't trying to argue a slam dunk for haguruma or anything, just thought it was a relevant line. I doubt that Bern had some "not really evil" plan that was meant to actually be good.

More like... for Bern and Lambda, the issue of "good/evil" is subservient to "interesting/boring". They just fall into good or evil roles depending on the story they're involved in, and within the context of those roles they press the story forward.
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Old 2013-08-02, 04:37   Link #32642
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I think that thing in the EP8 tea party was just a bit of meta-meta-commentary, really. The fourth wall was already thoroughly broken by that point, and right after that line they say they'll meet again "when something else cries". So I think that they were just commenting on their roles in Umineko as a whole; Lambda is hoping that Bern will be on the side of good again in the next game, like she was in Higurashi, while Bern is saying that it was kind of fun to be cast as the villain for a change. So it is basically just a commentary on how Rika and Miyoko are reused from game to game, but appearing in different forms each time. I'm sure they'll be reinvented again for the next WTC.
Yes, that's how I read it as well. It's as if Bern was saying "well, this time, Ryukishi had me play the role of the villain..." I don't think it has any deep meaning.
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Old 2013-08-02, 15:20   Link #32643
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post

More like... for Bern and Lambda, the issue of "good/evil" is subservient to "interesting/boring". They just fall into good or evil roles depending on the story they're involved in, and within the context of those roles they press the story forward.
So if I'm reading it right, Bern and Lambda are aware of their respective roles across multiple R7 stories, treat it like a job that they really enjoy, and their true morality spectrum is interesting vs boring. That would make sense since Rika/Takano esque characters exist in Rose Gun Days as well, though in that case they're both on the same side.

On a side note, I've been hearing that according to R7, the next When They Cry will commence after RGD is finished. Probably will get first novel in summer 2014.
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Old 2013-08-03, 02:26   Link #32644
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Is it not possible Battler just ... solved the epitaph, normally? After all, due to Erika's presence it's the only time he considers it with the adults and their clues, as well
Spoiler for Question regarding the PS3 version of Chiru and I wasn't sure where or if I could ask about it:
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Old 2013-08-03, 02:47   Link #32645
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Is it not possible Battler just ... solved the epitaph, normally? After all, due to Erika's presence it's the only time he considers it with the adults and their clues, as well
Spoiler for Question regarding the PS3 version of Chiru and I wasn't sure where or if I could ask about it:
It would help immensely if there was a video of that, since I don't have a PS3 here with me.
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Old 2013-08-03, 04:02   Link #32646
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There is a PS3 patch that adds voices, I believe; could anyone who knows Japanese try out that scene with it?

Although I doubt that they actually say anything understandable.
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Old 2013-08-03, 09:03   Link #32647
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As I am currently posting a lot in the EP4 thread: How did the trick for the shed work in EP4? Was Beatrice forcing Gohda and Kumasawa to "act" as if they were strangled and then killed them through the window? Or did she put a fake key into the corpses' pocket?
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Old 2013-08-03, 10:55   Link #32648
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
As I am currently posting a lot in the EP4 thread: How did the trick for the shed work in EP4? Was Beatrice forcing Gohda and Kumasawa to "act" as if they were strangled and then killed them through the window? Or did she put a fake key into the corpses' pocket?
IIRC, they were both shot in the forehead in a way that would have been impossible to do from the window, so the key Battler found must have been a fake with the label from the real one attached. He never bothered to check it because he had already destroyed the door.

The way the scene probably played out was:
1. Yasu goes to the shed and has Kumasawa and Gohda, who still think they're playing a game, pass her the key.
2. She helps them set up fake nooses.
3. Under the guise of checking how the scene looks from the door, she fetches a gun she had stashed outside and shoots both of them.
4. She puts the real key's tag on a fake key and plants the fake in Gohda's pocket.
5. She relocks the door from the outside with the real key and leaves.

Depending on George's level of accompliceness, if she had George palm the real key after he locked the shed, she could have gotten it from him instead, but that's just an unnecessary extra level of complexity.
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Old 2013-08-03, 13:24   Link #32649
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
IIRC, they were both shot in the forehead in a way that would have been impossible to do from the window, so the key Battler found must have been a fake with the label from the real one attached. He never bothered to check it because he had already destroyed the door.

The way the scene probably played out was:
1. Yasu goes to the shed and has Kumasawa and Gohda, who still think they're playing a game, pass her the key.
2. She helps them set up fake nooses.
3. Under the guise of checking how the scene looks from the door, she fetches a gun she had stashed outside and shoots both of them.
4. She puts the real key's tag on a fake key and plants the fake in Gohda's pocket.
5. She relocks the door from the outside with the real key and leaves.

Depending on George's level of accompliceness, if she had George palm the real key after he locked the shed, she could have gotten it from him instead, but that's just an unnecessary extra level of complexity.
There was, in an Agatha Christie's book if I'm not wrong, a trick that involved using a thin, long thread, of the type used for sewing. With a neddle you have it pass through the poket, then put both sides of the thread out of the window. Close everything with the key, go to the window, tie the key in a certain way to the thread then pull one head of the thread, causing the key to be pulled by the other at which it's attached. The key will end up in the poket then you'll pull the thread harder and it'll break. Since it's tied to the key in a certain way, no part of it will remain unlatched to the key but they both will be retrieved.

Sorry if I explained it poorly, I lack the English ability to make it clearer but in the book the trick worked and wasn't Yasu an Agatha Christie's reader?

This way she could have said in red the key was the right one.
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Old 2013-08-03, 13:50   Link #32650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
There was, in an Agatha Christie's book if I'm not wrong, a trick that involved using a thin, long thread, of the type used for sewing. With a neddle you have it pass through the poket, then put both sides of the thread out of the window. Close everything with the key, go to the window, tie the key in a certain way to the thread then pull one head of the thread, causing the key to be pulled by the other at which it's attached. The key will end up in the poket then you'll pull the thread harder and it'll break. Since it's tied to the key in a certain way, no part of it will remain unlatched to the key but they both will be retrieved.

Sorry if I explained it poorly, I lack the English ability to make it clearer but in the book the trick worked and wasn't Yasu an Agatha Christie's reader?

This way she could have said in red the key was the right one.
That's actually exactly how I imagined the whole trick worked.
I still wonder whether anybody was actually dead at all (except George) at the point when Battler met Beatrice at the mansion. Going by the way he was lead around the island there was enough time for Yasu to actually go around an kill people for real.
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Old 2013-08-03, 14:26   Link #32651
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
There was, in an Agatha Christie's book if I'm not wrong, a trick that involved using a thin, long thread, of the type used for sewing. With a neddle you have it pass through the poket, then put both sides of the thread out of the window. Close everything with the key, go to the window, tie the key in a certain way to the thread then pull one head of the thread, causing the key to be pulled by the other at which it's attached. The key will end up in the poket then you'll pull the thread harder and it'll break. Since it's tied to the key in a certain way, no part of it will remain unlatched to the key but they both will be retrieved.

Sorry if I explained it poorly, I lack the English ability to make it clearer but in the book the trick worked and wasn't Yasu an Agatha Christie's reader?

This way she could have said in red the key was the right one.
That works too, but given multiple options, I tend to think she would go for the one that lets her totally seal off any means of returning the key from outside, since according to Our Confession she likes that kind of closed room.
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Old 2013-08-03, 17:02   Link #32652
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
That works too, but given multiple options, I tend to think she would go for the one that lets her totally seal off any means of returning the key from outside, since according to Our Confession she likes that kind of closed room.
LOL actually I think that, depending to what Battler had proposed, she would have used an 'EP6 solution' and switched from a trick to the other. If he were to suspect the key had been changed she would use the thread trick and if he were to suspect a thread had been used she would go for the key switching (though to be honest the key switching could be the intended one as it was hinted in EP 7).
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Old 2013-08-03, 17:37   Link #32653
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I don't remember the exact red truths but wouldn't it be possible if Yasu pointed them from the window with a gun and threatened them to tie a noose around their heads? After placing the head on the noose she'd only have to shoot them the construct the scenario.

I don't remember if it was stated that shooting them trough the window was impossible, but if we believe Gohda & co believed to be playing, even the tying the noose around the neck could be justified by them believing to play death by hanging before being shot trough the window
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Old 2013-08-03, 17:46   Link #32654
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I don't remember the exact red truths but wouldn't it be possible if Yasu pointed them from the window with a gun and threatened them to tie a noose around their heads? After placing the head on the noose she'd only have to shoot them the construct the scenario.

I don't remember if it was stated that shooting them trough the window was impossible, but if we believe Gohda & co believed to be playing, even the tying the noose around the neck could be justified by them believing to play death by hanging before being shot trough the window
Specifically, I think they were facing away from the window and had been shot directly in the forehead.
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Old 2013-08-03, 17:51   Link #32655
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Specifically, I think they were facing away from the window and had been shot directly in the forehead.
Though was it directly said that way? I really don't remember. If it were, that pretty much destroys my theory.

Only thing I specifically remember was thinking that shooting a hanged person is a total overkill
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Old 2013-08-03, 18:08   Link #32656
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Specifically, I think they were facing away from the window and had been shot directly in the forehead.
This is what the VN says

Spoiler for EP 4 Battler's investigation on Gohda and Kumasawa:


So according to Battler they could have been shoot through the windows. So if they set the loops around their neck and waited like that there was no need to remove the key from Gohda's poket.

Also, yes, they weren't facing the window when Battler found them but, if they had just turned their head and then had been shoot the head might have ended up returning to face forward once they were dead because the muscles wouldn't be able to keep it turned anymore.
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Old 2013-08-03, 21:21   Link #32657
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
There was, in an Agatha Christie's book if I'm not wrong, a trick that involved using a thin, long thread, of the type used for sewing. With a neddle you have it pass through the poket, then put both sides of the thread out of the window. Close everything with the key, go to the window, tie the key in a certain way to the thread then pull one head of the thread, causing the key to be pulled by the other at which it's attached. The key will end up in the poket then you'll pull the thread harder and it'll break. Since it's tied to the key in a certain way, no part of it will remain unlatched to the key but they both will be retrieved.

Sorry if I explained it poorly, I lack the English ability to make it clearer but in the book the trick worked and wasn't Yasu an Agatha Christie's reader?

This way she could have said in red the key was the right one.
I'm pretty sure Agatha Christie never used any such device. It was used in an episode of Famous Detective Conan / Case Closed. Somebody posted a link to a snipped way back.
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Old 2013-08-03, 21:31   Link #32658
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I'm pretty sure Agatha Christie never used any such device. It was used in an episode of Famous Detective Conan / Case Closed. Somebody posted a link to a snipped way back.
It might be I'm confusing the two, though I seem to remember Agatha Christie using a closed rom and a trick similar to it. But it's been so long from the last time I get the chance to read my collection of Agatha Christie's book I might remember wrong.
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Old 2013-08-04, 02:40   Link #32659
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Is it not possible Battler just ... solved the epitaph, normally? After all, due to Erika's presence it's the only time he considers it with the adults and their clues, as well
It's possible, sure. We just don't know, because Battler's thoughts in EP5 are unreliable.

On the other hand, it's very strange for Battler to attribute his alleged discovery of the turned statue to Kinzo... when he did not actually see Kinzo and supposedly doesn't even know that Kinzo is dead.

I can maybe imagine a motive for Battler's lie under the assumption that he is actually aware that Kinzo is dead. But under the assumption that Battler thinks Kinzo is alive I can't make any sense of it.

At the very least, it suggests that Battler was aware that Kinzo was dead, which leads to the question of how he would know that.
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Old 2013-08-04, 08:29   Link #32660
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's possible, sure. We just don't know, because Battler's thoughts in EP5 are unreliable.

On the other hand, it's very strange for Battler to attribute his alleged discovery of the turned statue to Kinzo... when he did not actually see Kinzo and supposedly doesn't even know that Kinzo is dead.

I can maybe imagine a motive for Battler's lie under the assumption that he is actually aware that Kinzo is dead. But under the assumption that Battler thinks Kinzo is alive I can't make any sense of it.

At the very least, it suggests that Battler was aware that Kinzo was dead, which leads to the question of how he would know that.
Perhaps they were indeed planning the "mystery murder game" to frame Natsuhi already, I mean his counsins must have been informed about it at some point and that was probably before Battler and Erika went out for the epitaph. Maybe him doing that act for some reason gave him some unusual motivation to solve the epitaph. We do not know for sure what may have happened behind the scenes.
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