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Old 2013-08-04, 12:06   Link #32661
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Perhaps they were indeed planning the "mystery murder game" to frame Natsuhi already, I mean his counsins must have been informed about it at some point and that was probably before Battler and Erika went out for the epitaph. Maybe him doing that act for some reason gave him some unusual motivation to solve the epitaph. We do not know for sure what may have happened behind the scenes.
If one wants to interpret the scene in a 'gentle way' Battler didn't see Kinzo in person but that in his mind he saw Kinzo saying or doing something or, anyway though of him and this pushed him to go forward.

Let's assume Battler doesn't aim to harm anyone but he'd been involved in 'Beatrice/the adults' game' as he's been asked to play the role of who solves the epitaph and he was told Krauss might be hiding Kinzo's death for his own purpose and letting his siblings in troubles.

He might think he's doing the righteous thing in 'playing the role of the one who solves the epitaph against Natsuhi & Krauss'. Maybe he thinks just this will push them to confess, they'll split the gold and then he'll return the title to Krauss.

After all, if Battler solves the epitaph:

Quote:
"You're now a real successor to the head! You've got to have an audience with Father and have him acknowledge you right away...!"
... and he could meet Kinzo only if Kinzo is alive, which will force Krauss to either show Kinzo is alive or admit his lie.

Then Erika with her words makes him think things might not go so smoothly and this isn't really a game and he'd been tricked into taking part to it.

He has second thoughts then... he remembers Kinzo saying something and takes his decision. And in his mind is as if Kinzo told him the way, same way as in Maria's mind Sakutarou is dead or alive but basically he really saw no one and Kinzo told him nothing right then.

Or he actually saw someone else (Shannon or even Genji) who helped him but he thought they were doing it because it would have been Kinzo's will so, thought this person, Kinzo 'told' him.

We know Battler must know Shannon & Kanon are involved as they're 'present' when he receives the ring. If he was handed the solution by someone, let's say Kyrie, who told him: "Grandfather is death but we can prove it. However before dying he understood Krauss might try to hide it for his own gain so he handed to one of his servants the solutions with instructions saying if he were to die and Krauss would try to hide it, they should pass the solution to you. This is what we have about the solution, it's sadly incomplete but grandfather though you would figure out how to continue so Battler-kun please help us reveal that grandfather die so we can give him a proper burial and make him rest in peace?"

Maybe he didn't take it seriously at first, he thought it was a joke, how could Krauss do something like this but then things start to get clearer and seeing a servant in the rain pointing to a direction surprised him and confirmed him the fact this might be not a random treasure hunting game but that he's following grandfather's wills.

In the manga we see he was surprised enough by what he saw he dropped his umbrella so I'll say he saw something that surprised him. Just not Kinzo.
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Old 2013-08-05, 08:17   Link #32662
ALPHA-Beatrice
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There's an interesting riddle in the 6th game(especially if you consider Erika to be an actual existence in the world of the Game Boards).

Namely, the closed room scenario.

Lady Beatrice suggests that Kanon is neither in the closet, bedroom or the bathroom.
The commonly accepted theory is that Erika Shot and killed Kanon

But Knox's 7th prevents the detective from being the Culprit

So, how exactly did Kanon escape from the closed room? Battler most certainly isn't coming back, Erika has refused to open the chain lock "for all eternity". And the windows can't be opened.

Here's my theory:

The winds from the typhoons broke the windows, during that time Erika was still inspecting the bathroom. So she couldn't have noticed Kanon escape.

It's true that the windows can't be "opened", but there's no red or blue text against them being "broken".
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Old 2013-08-05, 09:37   Link #32663
Renall
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Erika isn't a detective. That was... kind of the whole point of everything she does in ep6.

Also if you believe in character Shkanonigans then you can just say Kanon stopped being Kanon and Erika never has to have actually undertaken any action. I don't know why you would argue Kanon stopped being Kanon, but it's apparently valid under the red.
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Old 2013-08-05, 10:09   Link #32664
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Erika isn't a detective. That was... kind of the whole point of everything she does in ep6.

Also if you believe in character Shkanonigans then you can just say Kanon stopped being Kanon and Erika never has to have actually undertaken any action. I don't know why you would argue Kanon stopped being Kanon, but it's apparently valid under the red.
But didn't Lady Beatrice acknowledge that Erika was the detective when Erika asked to confirm she didn't want to save Battler/Kanon.
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Old 2013-08-05, 10:10   Link #32665
GreyZone
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Erika killed at least 5 people in EP6, therefore she isn't the detective.

I see you still try to prove Rosatrice... or at least you try to disprove shkanon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
But didn't Lady Beatrice acknowledge that Erika was the detective when Erika asked to confirm she didn't want to save Battler/Kanon.
No, she did not do that. At least not in red.
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Old 2013-08-05, 10:27   Link #32666
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Erika killed at least 5 people in EP6, therefore she isn't the detective.

I see you still try to prove Rosatrice... or at least you try to disprove shkanon.



No, she did not do that. At least not in red.
**Sips tea** The point wasn't to prove Rosatrice or to disprove Shkanontrice.

The point was to discuss Umineko Theorem, and to enjoy ourselves.
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Old 2013-08-05, 10:27   Link #32667
Renall
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
But didn't Lady Beatrice acknowledge that Erika was the detective when Erika asked to confirm she didn't want to save Battler/Kanon.
Nobody declares Erika to be a detective of any sort until the very end where Erika introduces herself as "a detective" in red. They very much explicitly disclaim Erika having any detective authority in that episode, on multiple occasions. Battler leaves open the option of taking it, but Erika never does so.

There's no real way she could retroactively reclaim detective authority after committing murders anyway. Unless you're going to argue that she killed people and then declared herself a detective from that point on... and if you argue that, then all one would have to do is state that she didn't kill Kanon, which is an easy fix (suicide and/or personality suppression, either way Erika didn't cause it).
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Old 2013-08-05, 10:57   Link #32668
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Nobody declares Erika to be a detective of any sort until the very end where Erika introduces herself as "a detective" in red. They very much explicitly disclaim Erika having any detective authority in that episode, on multiple occasions. Battler leaves open the option of taking it, but Erika never does so.

There's no real way she could retroactively reclaim detective authority after committing murders anyway. Unless you're going to argue that she killed people and then declared herself a detective from that point on... and if you argue that, then all one would have to do is state that she didn't kill Kanon, which is an easy fix (suicide and/or personality suppression, either way Erika didn't cause it).
Okay, so Knox's 7th can't disprove that Erika shot Kanon. But similarly, my theory about the storm breaking the window can't be disproven right?
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Old 2013-08-05, 11:04   Link #32669
qno2
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[Request: 'From the time I entered the room to the time of the logic error, Battler, Kanon, and I were the only ones who entered or exited the room.'] I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.
[Request: 'This refers to three people.'] I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.
[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

Therefore, Kanon never left. "Shannon", if you to bother with all those reds regarding identity, can't leave either, since only Battler left.


Additionally, with your idea Battler could've left on his own without needing a "sacrifice".

Oh just imagine it, after all that trouble Battler left in actuality through the broken window after opening up the chain... and Kanon comes in with no Battler in sight. Oh being Shkanon is suffering. None of her sacrifices mean anything to anyone. In fact, those dearest to her trap her in a room with a homicidial maniac.

edit: Ah, thanks GoldenLand. Must've missed that one... not even "TrollBattler" is possible.

Last edited by qno2; 2013-08-05 at 11:42.
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Old 2013-08-05, 11:32   Link #32670
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
It's true that the windows can't be "opened", but there's no red or blue text against them being "broken".
Impossible. It is not possible to escape via the windows of that room.

Quote:
Red text from Ep6:
this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.
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Old 2013-08-05, 11:36   Link #32671
Renall
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Even if the windows were to break, the seals shouldn't (the seals probably don't even physically exist), so if someone left via a window it should be possible for Erika to say a seal was broken.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2013-08-05, 11:40   Link #32672
ALPHA-Beatrice
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The seals on the Windows were in tact when the Red Statement was made. That doesn't deny that they could've been broken later.

There was the Red Statement that "This was a closed room until the end.".That implies that something occurred that no longer made it a closed room scenario.
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Old 2013-08-05, 11:41   Link #32673
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Even if the windows were to break, the seals shouldn't (the seals probably don't even physically exist), so if someone left via a window it should be possible for Erika to say a seal was broken.
Yep. Heck, we even have that in red.

Quote:
Know that an unbroken seal proves that there are still none who have entered or exited.
Quote:
It needs no second telling, but know that entry or exit without breaking the seal is impossible!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
The seals on the Windows were in tact when the Red Statement was made. That doesn't deny that they could've been broken later.
Even if they were, Kanon could not have left through them, because...

Quote:
(Likewise from ep 6)

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?]
Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.
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Old 2013-08-05, 11:56   Link #32674
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Yep. Heck, we even have that in red.







Even if they were, Kanon could not have left through them, because...
(Likewise from ep 6)

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?]
Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.


I may not know what the solution is, but I submit that Beatrice's puzzle to Kanon's disappearance can be found with a truth of Humans!
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Old 2013-08-05, 12:24   Link #32675
Renall
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
The seals on the Windows were in tact when the Red Statement was made. That doesn't deny that they could've been broken later.
This is what people don't get about the seals: They do not prohibit anyone from entering or leaving. They just give notice to the person who set them that somebody did leave. In other words, if one of her seals were broken Erika has essentially the right to red-truth-level knowledge that the seal was broken. Had that happened, the Logic Error would not even exist, because Battler could just shrug, say, "alright, you got me on that one," and they'd move on to the next puzzle because that by itself doesn't prove anything.

The Logic Error is contingent upon Erika's seals not being broken and Battler's refusal to break them (he could've taken the tape off the chain or not reset the chain and just left, but he chose to agree that those were set). If anyone else broke the seals, it would defeat the purpose of both of their efforts. Kanon's body entered the room and didn't leave it, but Kanon did. There's only two ways a body can enter a room and the person not still be present there, really: if a person can count as something other than a body, or if presence requires being physically alive. Neither of these requires that Erika commit any sort of act on her part, although as has been noted she is perfectly capable of killing in this game if she wishes to, whether intentionally or accidentally.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2013-08-05, 12:32   Link #32676
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I may not know what the solution is, but I submit that Beatrice's puzzle to Kanon's disappearance can be found with a truth of Humans!
That's the spirit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
There was the Red Statement that "This was a closed room until the end.".That implies that something occurred that no longer made it a closed room scenario.
I've got to pick you up on a detail from earlier, though. I disagree that the red you're referring to here implies that the room was no longer a closed room, but more importantly...this is the red you're talking about there:

Quote:
The cousins' room is guaranteed to be a perfect closed room until the end.
That red wasn't for the guest room that Battler had been in, as you had been presenting it, but for the cousins' room. That's a really disingenuous way to present your argument, because if you knew enough of that red to quote it (even if you misquoted it slightly), you must have known that it didn't apply to the guest room. Are you arguing seriously here?
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Old 2013-08-05, 13:53   Link #32677
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
That's the spirit!



I've got to pick you up on a detail from earlier, though. I disagree that the red you're referring to here implies that the room was no longer a closed room, but more importantly...this is the red you're talking about there:



That red wasn't for the guest room that Battler had been in, as you had been presenting it, but for the cousins' room. That's a really disingenuous way to present your argument, because if you knew enough of that red to quote it (even if you misquoted it slightly), you must have known that it didn't apply to the guest room. Are you arguing seriously here?
I'm arguing seriously. And I did misquote it. But I could also contend that it could also refer to the Cousins room. Because the seals are pretty much the same right?
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Old 2013-08-05, 15:14   Link #32678
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
But I could also contend that it could also refer to the Cousins room. Because the seals are pretty much the same right?
No. That's not even what you were arguing when you tried to use that red as evidence. You were attempting to make an argument about the status of a specific room, the guest room, as a closed room...using a red which made a guarantee about the closed room status of a specific, different room, the cousins' room. And presenting the red as if it had been about the guest room.

The reds are still not interchangeable in that manner. To pretend that they are would be both intellectually dishonest and absurd. I might as well argue that a hypothetical red saying Battler is dead also applies to Maria. They're both human beings, so they're pretty much the same, right? No, they're not.

Anyway, have you got any ideas which can explain how Kanon could have entered the room, but did not leave it, and yet he did not exist in the room?
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Old 2013-08-05, 15:41   Link #32679
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
No. That's not even what you were arguing when you tried to use that red as evidence. You were attempting to make an argument about the status of a specific room, the guest room, as a closed room...using a red which made a guarantee about the closed room status of a specific, different room, the cousins' room. And presenting the red as if it had been about the guest room.

The reds are still not interchangeable in that manner. To pretend that they are would be both intellectually dishonest and absurd. I might as well argue that a hypothetical red saying Battler is dead also applies to Maria. They're both human beings, so they're pretty much the same, right? No, they're not.

Anyway, have you got any ideas which can explain how Kanon could have entered the room, but did not leave it, and yet he did not exist in the room?
I suggest the possibility that Lady Erika never did check that one Specific Area that she mentioned. Perhaps there's a fourth area in addition to the bedroom, bathroom and closet(like a living room for example). Kanon could have hidden in the living room.

I furthermore theorize that Knox's rules don't negate this, since Lady Erika herself acknowledged the existence of the room she didn't check.
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Old 2013-08-05, 15:48   Link #32680
Drifloon
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This is all kind of silly, really, because obviously the intention is that the solution reveals something vital about Beatrice's heart, so it would be quite pointless for it to just be some random wordplay trick. But I suppose that this sort of thing can be an amusing intellectual exercise.

Either way, Beatrice responded to "Confirming definition. The inside of the guest room is divided into three sections: the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet" with "I also recognize it as such".
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