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Old 2013-08-11, 05:41   Link #32721
GuestSpeaker
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Hey, as a random thought, do you guys know where Eva gets that whole "You are just a rented womb to bare the next heir etc etc" stuff from? Did Kinzo ever say it? Because we know that he didn't feel that way about Bice, so if he did, I am guessing he said it to that unnamed legitimate wife of his. Oh her.

Hmm, actually in terms of that Kinzo parallels George sort of nice, maybe George was destined to the lead the Ushiromiya family, secret mistress and all.
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Old 2013-08-11, 06:09   Link #32722
Dormin
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Uhh, interestingly gay-genji theory makes kinda sense and is somewhat backed by meta as renall said. I just don't know if this was kind of theory we were ever supposed to arrive in.

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Hey, as a random thought, do you guys know where Eva gets that whole "You are just a rented womb to bare the next heir etc etc" stuff from? Did Kinzo ever say it? Because we know that he didn't feel that way about Bice, so if he did, I am guessing he said it to that unnamed legitimate wife of his. Oh her.
I don't remember the exact wordings and facts but I believe it was pretty much kinzo being a geezer. We also have to remember the time it was set in (though eighties-nineties already somewhat had a sense of growing gender equality) and how japanese culture affects the view on women.

I think it's relatively logical that Eva, grown among rich assholes, has adopted the attitude of rented wombs. Or maybe saying that (ep1, I guess?) she just wanted to hit natsuhi where it hurt the most
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Old 2013-08-11, 09:28   Link #32723
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Oh Eva, you are definitely not a feminist.

Actually, after reading the seacats rereadings they mentioned something else interesting. One of them stated that Bice felt trapped and killed herself on purpose, which is not something I had ever considered. This is likely Yasu's interpretation of it, but I like to believe Bice did love Kinzo. If for nothing else, than if she truly hated him choosing to die in childbirth (as they put it) and leaving her daughter with him is a pretty poor move.

I also realised that in Ep 4, Maria basically spells out reader theory for us: "Oh Ange, did I ever say I was unhappy? Why are you interpreting it that way? Where is it written?" Cut to Ange reading diary, then us seeing her twist on it presented to us as fact.

Though Maria WAS totes unhappy.
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Old 2013-08-11, 09:41   Link #32724
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Well. it's possible that Eva is just a misogynist beyotch, like her dad and brothers, who considers herself an exceptional case. I mean, it's suggested that she looks down on Rosa, too, for her seeming lack of ambition and timidity.

Also, I'm so so glad we're finally discussing Kinzo-lusting Genji - it's been my headcanon for Genji's "furniture" status since forever. XD

Which reminds me.
Dunno if you guys have read the extra TIP, "Angel of 17 Years", but ... ah ...

Spoiler for I DIED XD:
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Old 2013-08-11, 09:43   Link #32725
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Or maybe Yasu just ships them?
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You say that like there's really a difference. :P
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Renall-san, what would you say to making a Forgery based on it? I'm sure it'd be quite popular
Pretty sure there's already an official TIP that has this sort of thing nicely covered.
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Well. it's possible that Eva is just a misogynist beyotch, like her dad and brothers, who considers herself an exceptional case. I mean, it's suggested that she looks down on Rosa, too, for her seeming lack of ambition and timidity.
Yes, Eva is a gigantic hypocrite. She is a powerful, independent, liberated woman who looks down on other women for asserting themselves when asserting themselves would be inconvenient for her or her family. Her belief that George is "more appropriate" as family head is probably at least somewhat rooted in the fact that Jessica is a woman as much as she might try to claim it's because Jessica is unsuitable.

She hates Natsuhi because Natsuhi gets in her way, stands up to her, and is fully supportive of Krauss. Remember, Natsuhi's always going on about duty and Krauss's position and whatnot, things Eva thinks Krauss never deserved in the first place. So she tells Natsuhi to remember her place and shut up, exactly what she was once told and what motivated her as a young woman.
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Old 2013-08-11, 12:57   Link #32726
DokEnkephalin
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I think I have an explanation for the mysterious letter in Ep5, unless I've overlooked something.

LambdaDelta categorically asserted that Somebody knocked on the door -- without going into minutae, she insisted that a knucklebone connected to the doorbone. She then excluded the entire set of individuals observed and unobserved. This leaves a set of Nobody, which equates with Somebody -- a contradiction.

In the rules of the game, this is called a Logic Error, but as long as it wasn't acknowledged and challenged by someone aware of it, the game would continue. Even if LambdaDelta hadn't done this deliberately, it wasn't in Bernkastel's best interest to overturn the game, or the worse alternative, interrupt it until the error was repaired. Erika would've been insufferable genius enough to point it out, but at that moment she was too emotionally badgered by the women she was desperate to please to have any presence of mind, and driving her to a nervous wreck ensured she would have no wish to revisit the puzzle later.

Why would it benefit LambdaDelta and Bernkastel to establish a Logic Error? Continuing with it gave the ability to exploit the logical rule that "anything follows from a contradiction", all propositions are logically correct no matter how impossible, absurd or mutually exclusive, and therefore anything that suited them could be rendered into Red Truth. And now only LambdaDelta and Bern were aware of this advantage.

When Battler seized back control of the game at the end, Bernkastel had four options: press victory with her hidden advantage, cancel the game, demand a repair from LambdaDelta, or concede. But Bern didn't care about winning, that was just a means to her real goal; destroying Beatrice and her game completely.

* Cancelling the entire game might also repeal Beatrice's death, which she was unwilling to do if she was unsure she could repeat the feat.
* Repairing the game wouldn't achieve anything, but would take many more years than she was willing to tolerate.
* Winning the game after Battler issued Golden Truth wouldn't revoke his eligibility as Gamemaster to restart the game and possibly revive Beatrice, bringing her back to square one; and worse, that could make her exploit transparent enough to Battler that he could use it as a weapon later.

Conceding a draw and facing a tie-breaker was Bernkastel's best possible conclusion to Episode 5.
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Old 2013-08-11, 13:31   Link #32727
GreyZone
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^It was NEVER said that there was a knocking sound at all. Lambda insisting that a knocking sound happened is as credible as Beatrice saying that magic exists. So no, there would NOT be a logic error, because there was no error. The only possible error could be Shannon and Kanon appearing before Erika at the same time (unless you use Renall's "Kanon apparently hid behind Gohda"-excuse)
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Old 2013-08-11, 15:03   Link #32728
Kealym
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At this point I'm willing to argue that the manga supports my "Kanon has a body just this once" idea. One of the boons of the manga has been visual clarification, and Kanon is in very plain sight during the scenes in question.i
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Old 2013-08-11, 15:08   Link #32729
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Ah, I'd made the connection before and after that Battler wasn't the detective, but missed it for that scene. Erika wasn't there to witness it, and it wasn't even validated contextually in Red.
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Old 2013-08-11, 15:35   Link #32730
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Regarding the knock: Lambda always speaks in negatives when using red about the letter and knock. "Soandso didn't touch the letter" or "soandso didn't make the knocking sound by doing this or that." Negative statements remain true even if the thing they're discussing is a non-event. I can say "I wasn't at the store on Main Street today," even if I was on Main Street, if there isn't any store on Main Street.

If you reach from the reds the conclusion that no one could have placed the letter, it isn't a contradiction; it's a contraindication that the condition described could have been true in the first place.

The problem, I think, is in the translation. Lambda uses "the" as an article for the letter/knock in a few places, but I think it's clearly intended that she should be using "a" in all such instances. This is probably something that isn't like that in the original script, at least not as we'd understand it linguistically.
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At this point I'm willing to argue that the manga supports my "Kanon has a body just this once" idea. One of the boons of the manga has been visual clarification, and Kanon is in very plain sight during the scenes in question.i
Here's the issue I have with that:
  • Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
  • Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
  • In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.
The only way around this is to say Kanon was always a "person" but never an existent independent body. But that gets dangerously close to letting us say Kinzo is a "person" or "character" even though he's dead, because doesn't exist == doesn't exist. Someone else trying to perpetrate the appearance of his existence is philosophically indistinct from Yasu posing as Kanon to validate the appearance of his existence.

Plus, per the end of ep6, Kanon and Shannon aren't two people. And we can't give him a body but not personhood, because that's impossible (or at least cheating).
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Old 2013-08-11, 15:44   Link #32731
DokEnkephalin
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Negative statements remain true even if the thing they're discussing is a non-event. I can say "I wasn't at the store on Main Street today," even if I was on Main Street, if there isn't any store on Main Street.
Sort of; if there was a qualified witness to the knock, then LambdaDelta's negation of the qualifiers of that knock would still be a contextual verification of a knock. If you said you weren't at the store on Main Street today and then added that there is no Main Street store, that would affirm that Main Street exists today.
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Old 2013-08-11, 15:49   Link #32732
Cao Ni Ma
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The problem, I think, is in the translation. Lambda uses "the" as an article for the letter/knock in a few places, but I think it's clearly intended that she should be using "a" in all such instances. This is probably something that isn't like that in the original script, at least not as we'd understand it linguistically.Here's the issue I have with that:
  • Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
  • Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
  • In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.
The only way around this is to say Kanon was always a "person" but never an existent independent body. But that gets dangerously close to letting us say Kinzo is a "person" or "character" even though he's dead, because doesn't exist == doesn't exist. Someone else trying to perpetrate the appearance of his existence is philosophically indistinct from Yasu posing as Kanon to validate the appearance of his existence.

Plus, per the end of ep6, Kanon and Shannon aren't two people. And we can't give him a body but not personhood, because that's impossible (or at least cheating).
You can get by this by having "The number of people" be a variable (x) thats not been entirely defined. Its in a state of quantum superposition until its finally observed with an absolute red in part 6. This red causes a ripple that affects the previous episodes so that Kanon, as an individual person, could no longer be used in any of intended solutions. (Retrocausality)

Its one of the possible solutions if we try to apply quantum physics theories to umineko.
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Old 2013-08-11, 16:01   Link #32733
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Counterpoint: That's stupid.

Elaboration: "X" and "X+1" aren't numbers. if Erika alters X in a meaningful sense that causes the Red to comment on it, but X is undefined and can change through different games without changing X, than Erika doesn't change X either, making the relevant red in question utterly meaningless.

Also, Reds are descriptive, not proscriptive. Your solution of retroactively negating Kanon-body as a solution means that Red statements can change reality. This simply is not the case.
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Old 2013-08-11, 16:30   Link #32734
Cao Ni Ma
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Its not an issue of red changing reality, more like forcing it to take a shape. As long as you dont violate something and cause a logic error you can force reality to behave as what you are saying. Thats the whole point of EP6s scene with Battler and Erika in the room. As well as their confrontation in EP8. Saying a red is basically showing a part of the catbox for that particular episode.

Hell, I think you can attribute Erika's wild mood changes between episodes because of it. A world where she's the detective requires there to be 18 people in rokkenjima, by denying the possibility of such a word existing she's essentially wiped out of existence.

e-Double hell, it explains RK07s sudden change from Higurashi to Umineko when it comes to actually revealing everything in a story. It is thematically consistent with the story he was trying to tell us.

RK07 could have done a better job with the whole quantum physics element in the story if he tried to further expand on it. Anyone interested in story that does use it to greater effect should read Murasaki no Qualia. I have a feeling that lots of people that like Umineko would like reading something like this.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2013-08-11 at 16:50.
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Old 2013-08-11, 16:59   Link #32735
GreyZone
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We could also assume that Shkanon was there only as 1 person but at some points used the "voice" of the other servant and by that creating the illusion that both are there. Also note how Shkanon ONLY appeard as two before Erika, when there was a larger crowd. The dining hall had 18 people and later on at the door to the study there were some other people as well.

That means in the end it would be the direction of "Kanon hid behind Gohda" after all... But this could be what Lambdadelta ment, when she told Battler that Beato was going "too easy on him". Such tricks were possible in Beatrice's games as well, but they would make the games a lot harder to solve.
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Old 2013-08-11, 17:00   Link #32736
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Counterpoint: That's stupid.

Elaboration: "X" and "X+1" aren't numbers. if Erika alters X in a meaningful sense that causes the Red to comment on it, but X is undefined and can change through different games without changing X, than Erika doesn't change X either, making the relevant red in question utterly meaningless.

Also, Reds are descriptive, not proscriptive. Your solution of retroactively negating Kanon-body as a solution means that Red statements can change reality. This simply is not the case.
A 19th person was denied in Red, thereby Furudo Erika can never be 18+1. Indeed, the red statement that Erika "increases it by 1" pretty much spells out that the true number wasn't 18 but 17

Erika represents a "fictional" 17th person. Whom I argue to be Kanon. Kanon never existed, at any point, at any one of the games. I'll argue that indeed, the Ushiromiya's recognized Kanon as a "person", but in reality Kanon never existed.
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Old 2013-08-11, 17:05   Link #32737
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Furudo Erika existed. She was onboard a ship during the storm. It was in a TIP as far as I remember.
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Old 2013-08-11, 17:12   Link #32738
Cao Ni Ma
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Furudo Erika existed. She was onboard a ship during the storm. It was in a TIP as far as I remember.
Not as the detective or a visitor in Rokkenjima.
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Old 2013-08-11, 17:16   Link #32739
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Furudo Erika existed. She was onboard a ship during the storm. It was in a TIP as far as I remember.
Furudo Erika existed in the world of Humans at one point, before the fatal crash of her boat.

Supposing the Ushiromiya's were to find her, the only time any of the family members are depicted outside is during EP. 3 when the Cousins were on the beach(pre-storm). In all games, the family's depicted inside of either the mansion or the guest house during the storm.
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Old 2013-08-11, 17:16   Link #32740
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I take it the Red Truth can only assert things that are true in decohered consistent histories, not any of the values of the superposed state itself. So if the use of magic is reliant on an unknown quantity X from the fundamental level, then the presence of that quantity would appear in one of those superposed states. The Red Truth can't assert the value of either, mystery or fantasy, but only the constants of their effects.

I wouldn't call this a quantum physics element, it relies pretty much on a misunderstanding of how quantum physics works. But it is interesting as a plot and logical premise, makes a far more complex thought experiment than Schroedinger's Cat.
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