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Old 2009-11-15, 09:22   Link #3261
Jan-Poo
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The anime might not be a 100% reliable source, but if you look carefully you'll notice that the japanese text doesn't match with Beatrice's handwriting and instead matches with Virigilia's.

Can't be said for sure but it is either they are using a different pen or pencil or Beatrice has a heavier hand. In any case my point stands.

As for the stomach ripping, it was certainly done to make the people inside the island believe in the witch, but the sleeping pills have nothing to do with it. That's not the reason. The stomaches were opened for the purpose of giving absolute proof that they were 100% dead, and/or to give the survivors a good shock.

The sleeping pills theory doesn't work, because the people on the island would have no way to check inside the dead's stomaches.
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Old 2009-11-15, 09:31   Link #3262
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
... so she accidentally killed all adults in the dining room... They moved the bodies to the chapel (initally, adults were not supposed to go to chapel at all. Beatrice gave the key for Maria exclusively in order to kill her after cheering her up with the Halloween party things). She cut open the siblings' abdomens and put sweet into the body for she had to eliminate the evidence that they were killed by sleeping pills overdose. She basically removed everyone's stomach, I suppose.
There's a line said by lambda at the end of EP 4:
When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!
So they died in the chapel, with the culprit inside it. You can say they didn't really die by sleeping pills overdose, but only after getting their stomachs cut open/stuffed (alive when that was happening ).
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Old 2009-11-15, 10:38   Link #3263
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There's a line said by lambda at the end of EP 4:
When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!
So they died in the chapel, with the culprit inside it. You can say they didn't really die by sleeping pills overdose, but only after getting their stomachs cut open/stuffed (alive when that was happening ).
IC. I have overlooked it.

Then I have to rethink why the hell they were in the chapel.... it should be true that they were dosed before cutting open. So it could be the case that Rosa still overdosed them only in this time they were located in chapel. The Halloween decoration was present to create an atmosphere that the Suit-Beatrice was a witch BEFORE they arrived at the chapel. (In the TIPS of EP2, all the sixes were said to be cut open after they died)

After they ordered Genji to come and the children to go back to guesthouse, Suit-Beatrice should have showed up and invited them to the chapel. In this case, someone (I thought it was Rosa) should have dropped the pills to the food they were about to consume in the chapel. They were accidentially overdosed and killed in the chapel. But before that, Rosa confronted suit-Beatrice (and found that it was Shannon, in my hypothesis). Genji came out to explain everything. Genji tried to wake up the adults but found they were dead. Rosa panicked and were worried the police would have discovered she was the murderer.

I would admit stuffing the stomach with candies and mixing up intestine with jams had little chance to cover up they were killed by sleeping pills, but I could not think out why they were done otherwise. Cutting open the stomach would be enough to show they were dead but stuffing it with candies? And there were many less gruesome way to make sure someone was dead without destroying the faces. (For example, ripping their neck open as in EP5, if they could rip open the abdomen, surely they could rip open the neck). Why chose to rip open the stomach as normal murderers had little reason to do so? In panic, Rosa might have hoped for this could confuse the autopsy. Surely on the island there had been no tools to check their stomaches, but Rosa did not expect they would all die before the police came. This act was implemented since she believed she would survive all these and wanted to push all the crimes on the "19th guest" Suit-Beatrice. These all were done in the Rosa's belief that she and Maria would survive till the end. She and other servants don't know there was going to be a disaster killing them all.....

------------------------------------------

An opposition on Kumasawa writing "To my beloved Apprentice": Ange compared the words on the letter containing the bank card with the declaration written in Maria's textbook. I think the address was written in Japanese so she should be comparing the "to my beloved apprentice" with the address. I think you can't directly compare one's handwriting for Roman character and Japanese and concluded they were written by two people (I don't think my handwriting of Chinese and English are similar). And consider the context, the texts were directed by Beatrice to Maria, rather than Virgilia to Maria or Beatrice.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-15 at 11:23.
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Old 2009-11-15, 10:54   Link #3264
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Exactly. So if Beatrice wants Battler to solve the mystery, why would she wield such a twisted definition of body doubles that would definitely set one upon the wrong track? I generally argue that any red truths used by Beatrice and Lambda can be taken at face value (Lambda frankly because of her title and because we have never seen her lie. At all.) while those proposed by Bern and Erika have to be accepted with a grain of salt, particularly Erika.


And Jessica does this..... why?


The second one is.... possible, I guess, but the first one makes no sense as Episode 4 makes it pretty clear that Kyrie and the Sumadera family are not on good terms, to put it mildly.
1.I find it difficult to argue to what extent Beatrice want Battler to think hard on solving the mystery while not making it impossible to solve. My only response was that my interpretation was not something as far-fetched or mind-screwing as "Kanon "killed" himself by discarding his name" or "Shannon and Kanon was the same person during 4th and 5th Oct but still Battler, Jessica and George could not have discovered it".

2.I think Jessica did it because she found (or was shown that) that Krauss had been cooperating with Kyrie and killed Natsuhi as well as other people. She did not want Battler to find out this truth so she agreed to lie to Battler that everything was done through magic.

3.I agree that Kyrie and Kasumi were not on good terms, but don't jump to the conclusion between Kyrie and Sumadera family as a whole. Otherwise please explain to me why initally the senior members opposed Rudolf marrying Kyrie but somehow mysteriously they agreed to it after Kyrie's persuasion. Surely they must gain something from this marriage or they must desperately oppose to it since they had invested so much in Kyrie.

And really who enjoyed the most benefit if all people died like in the end of EP4? Sumadera family, wasn't it? Perfect motive for them to be involved.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-15 at 15:03.
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Old 2009-11-15, 11:08   Link #3265
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I think you are twisiting it to much. And the twisting of Kanon's death with the disgarding Kanons name might be too a little bit to much but maybe Beatrice wants to make a point with it. With saying "Kanon is dead" she means "The Kanon we now is dead and someonelse who is not restained and furniture anymore is running around"
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Last edited by Kitsu; 2009-11-15 at 11:19.
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Old 2009-11-15, 11:36   Link #3266
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1) It's a common theme in stories involving a single suicide OD on sleeping pills that the person will get them from a number of separate stores in order to get enough without raising suspicion. I find it difficult to believe that Rosa would have enough children's strength sedatives to kill six adults.

2) I think it takes a while for sleeping pills to kill; Rosa probably could have called for Nanjo.
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Old 2009-11-15, 11:44   Link #3267
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1) It's a common theme in stories involving a single suicide OD on sleeping pills that the person will get them from a number of separate stores in order to get enough without raising suspicion. I find it difficult to believe that Rosa would have enough children's strength sedatives to kill six adults.

2) I think it takes a while for sleeping pills to kill; Rosa probably could have called for Nanjo.
My idea is that: Rosa also thought it was not going to be enough, so she used up the whole bottle. And it screwed up. (or they had drinked alcohol inside the chapel? the two effect reinforced each other and killed all people)

Can Nanjo help poisoned people? I really don't know how to treat people overdosed with sedatives. She thought they were going to wake up soon but some time had passed before it was discovered they had already lost their breath. So even Genji had called Nanjo, it was already too late.

I think they must have called Nanjo in any case.
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Old 2009-11-15, 12:18   Link #3268
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1.I find it difficult to argue to what extent Beatrice want Battler to think hard on solving the mystery while not making it impossible to solve. My only response was that my interpretation was not something as far-fetched or mind-screwing as "Kanon "killed" himself by discarding his name" or "Shannon and Kanon was the same person during 4th and 5th Oct but still Battler, Jessica and George could not have discovered it".
Moot point. The fact that the above two attempt to twist the red (neither of which I believe anyways) does not make it somehow okay in order to twist the red, especially the ones said by Beatrice.

Quote:
2.I think Jessica did it because she found (or was shown that) that Krauss had been cooperating with Kyrie and killed Natsuhi as well as other people. She did not want Battler to find out this truth so she agreed to lie to Battler that everything was done through magic.
wut.
Wait, now you've got Krauss in this too? And he kills Natsuhi? Huh?
And the more I read about your theory, the more it seems ... haphazard, particularly with 4. What was Kyrie planning in 4? Was she planning anything (and given her personality she should)? And who was the Beatrice at the top?

Quote:
3.I agree that Kyrie and Kasumi were not on good terms, but don't jump to the conclusion between Kyrie and Sumadera family as a whole. Otherwise please explain to me why initally the senior members opposed Rosa marrying Kyrie but somehow mysteriously they agreed to it after Kyrie's persuasion. Surely they must gain something from this marriage or they must desperately oppose to it since they had invested so much in Kyrie.
I hope to God you mean the marriage between Rudolf and Kyrie. As for that, I thought it was obvious. The Sumaderas were PISSED, caused an uproar, but than got bribed to keep their mouths shut. I mean, they disowned Kyrie, and you claim that they're on good terms? There is absolutely no evidence for this at all, especially since if Kyrie has to be on good terms with someone, it has to be a member of the Sumadera family that hasn't been introduced yet.

Quote:
My idea is that: Rosa also thought it was not going to be enough, so she used up the whole bottle.
She used a whole bottle of sleeping pills. To knock six people out. And this was accidental. And then she let Genji kill off the rest of the family.
Riiiiigggghhhhhhtttttt.
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Old 2009-11-15, 12:23   Link #3269
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My idea is that: Rosa also thought it was not going to be enough, so she used up the whole bottle.
A bit of sleeping pills goes unnoticed but a whole bottle will be noticed right away. I think you aren't willing to accept the flaws in your theory and try to change things so that they "would work" making more and more people accomplices without them having even the slightest motive and things get only more ridiculous. You should get back to the beginning and think of something new.
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Old 2009-11-15, 12:25   Link #3270
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I mean that adult-strength sedatives are rarely distributed in sufficient quantity to kill a single adult. I doubt that Rosa would carry sufficient children's-strength sedatives to kill six.

Nanjo would probably have the means to induce vomiting, possibly even a stomach pump.

Also, I think it's very likely Battler was drugged late on in Episode 2 (he had been sleeping when Genji knocked to announce the 4th-8th twilights). If so, Rosa couldn't have used the whole bottle on her siblings.
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Old 2009-11-15, 13:37   Link #3271
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I hope to God you mean the marriage between Rudolf and Kyrie. As for that, I thought it was obvious. The Sumaderas were PISSED, caused an uproar, but than got bribed to keep their mouths shut. I mean, they disowned Kyrie, and you claim that they're on good terms? There is absolutely no evidence for this at all, especially since if Kyrie has to be on good terms with someone, it has to be a member of the Sumadera family that hasn't been introduced yet.
I have to agree with this. Considering that she bore a 'bastard child' as the Sumadera family would call it, I doubt Kyrie would be friendly with them. The only member of the family Kyrie was stated to be on good terms with was her father, but he's completely ignored by the entire family, since he's just a man with no authority, according to Ange.
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Old 2009-11-15, 15:03   Link #3272
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The possibility of Kyrie being a mastermind/culprit/Beatrice is there...but this over convoluted theory doesn't work because it is making too many assumptions...especially about their being a connection between the Sumadera family, Kinzo, and Beatrice. Where is there any proof of that to even start making that theory?

For Kyrie, the farthest we know anything about her is her connection to Rudolf and Asumu back around 1967 when both women got pregnant. After that we only know her relations to her family via Ange in 1998. Though that is probably enough to make Kyrie=Beatrice a viable theory...it doesn't make a case for Kyrie being the murder. Other things, such as her shady business connections could lead to her being the murders, but not in all arcs, since she's dead the First Twilight in two of them. And dispite my being able to believe that Shannon might be faking her own death in Ep1 via makeup on her own body (she's an identified body and not a body double, plus she's not able to be seen by the "detective")...there is no way around the red for Kyrie in Ep1 (since she is an unidentifed body and no bodies doubles are allowed. All unidentifed bodies identities are confirmed...therefore the body of Kyrie is Kyrie. All the unidentified bodies are confirmed to be dead. Kyrie is dead).
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Old 2009-11-15, 15:27   Link #3273
Marion
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The possibility of Kyrie being a mastermind/culprit/Beatrice is there...but this over convoluted theory doesn't work because it is making too many assumptions...especially about their being a connection between the Sumadera family, Kinzo, and Beatrice. Where is there any proof of that to even start making that theory?

For Kyrie, the farthest we know anything about her is her connection to Rudolf and Asumu back around 1967 when both women got pregnant. After that we only know her relations to her family via Ange in 1998. Though that is probably enough to make Kyrie=Beatrice a viable theory...it doesn't make a case for Kyrie being the murder. Other things, such as her shady business connections could lead to her being the murders, but not in all arcs, since she's dead the First Twilight in two of them. And dispite my being able to believe that Shannon might be faking her own death in Ep1 via makeup on her own body (she's an identified body and not a body double, plus she's not able to be seen by the "detective")...there is no way around the red for Kyrie in Ep1 (since she is an unidentifed body and no bodies doubles are allowed. All unidentifed bodies identities are confirmed...therefore the body of Kyrie is Kyrie. All the unidentified bodies are confirmed to be dead. Kyrie is dead).
Again, Kyrie doesn't HAVE to kill someone to be the mastermind. The mastermind is the one who thinks everything up, but masterminds rarely do any dirty work themselves. I personally think she set up the closed rooms and someone might have betrayed her the first couple times.

Besides, after EP 2 she consistently survives longer (EP 3 up until the 6th twilight and there's a good chance she didn't even die for a while, EP 4 was for a while - like a couple minutes before Battler got a call from Beato supposedly and in EP 5 she didn't die either)

I don't think Kyrie herself is Beatrice, but I think there are two of them.

1) A fake Beato, who gives Maria the letter (this is probably Shannon).
2) A real Beato, who Battler meets in EP 4 when discussing his sin.

The Beato in EP 2 has to be a fake, because when we see her greeting Maria the 17 limit is in place and no one has died up to that point - it would be impossible for that Beato to exist as a separate entity for that reason and I doubt anyone was dressing up as her because everyone who could of was away (Shannon was with the cousins so).
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Old 2009-11-15, 17:17   Link #3274
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Again, Kyrie doesn't HAVE to kill someone to be the mastermind. The mastermind is the one who thinks everything up, but masterminds rarely do any dirty work themselves. I personally think she set up the closed rooms and someone might have betrayed her the first couple times.
Off the current topic, but...

I say this a lot, but any real mastermind would be smart enough to stay far, far away from an island filled with volatile people where he/she knows a mass murder is going to be taking place.

Furthermore, even if they are on the island, given how brilliant the closed rooms are, they'd be smart enough to avoid dying, ever. You don't hire subordinates that would stab you in the back, after all.

Hmm. All those red definitions involving the word "culprit"... what's the definition of "culprit" in the first place?

Is the culprit the person who plans the murders or the person who carries them out?

Does the mastermind count as the culprit, in other words? Could, say, Battler, the detective, also be the mastermind without violating red text?

These are the sort of questions Battler should be asking.

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The Beato in EP 2 has to be a fake, because when we see her greeting Maria the 17 limit is in place and no one has died up to that point - it would be impossible for that Beato to exist as a separate entity for that reason and I doubt anyone was dressing up as her because everyone who could of was away (Shannon was with the cousins so).
I also say this a lot, but I don't think people are magically arriving on the island after the family starts dying. That's far, far too easy.

A large note is made of it every time the number of people changes, for one thing, and for another, it opens up the Unknown Person X thing again, which I think is completely contradictory to what Beato has been trying to tell Battler all along.
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Old 2009-11-15, 17:19   Link #3275
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The Beato in EP 2 has to be a fake, because when we see her greeting Maria the 17 limit is in place and no one has died up to that point - it would be impossible for that Beato to exist as a separate entity for that reason and I doubt anyone was dressing up as her because everyone who could of was away (Shannon was with the cousins so).
Uh? Can you elaborate? You think you can be 100% sure that Shannon and Jessica couldn't be the Beatrice who gave Maria the letter?

Personally I don't think it was a fake Beatrice, because the Beatrice in the metaworld claimed in red that she gave the letter to Maria.
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Old 2009-11-15, 17:44   Link #3276
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...

Did you forget it was said in red there was no more than 17 people on the island?
yep i forgot ^^;; *mentally slaps myself*
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Old 2009-11-15, 18:37   Link #3277
Marion
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Uh? Can you elaborate? You think you can be 100% sure that Shannon and Jessica couldn't be the Beatrice who gave Maria the letter?

Personally I don't think it was a fake Beatrice, because the Beatrice in the metaworld claimed in red that she gave the letter to Maria.
Let me be more specific: Shannon or Jessica (although Shannon more likely imo) can be the one to give Maria the letter, just not in EP 2. They were with everyone else when Suit-Beato entered the mansion (since this was after lunch time).

That isn't to say someone that might be working with the fake Beato couldn't have done it. It could explain the alternative outfit as well - they couldn't find the dress and so decided to use something else.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Off the current topic, but...

I say this a lot, but any real mastermind would be smart enough to stay far, far away from an island filled with volatile people where he/she knows a mass murder is going to be taking place.

Furthermore, even if they are on the island, given how brilliant the closed rooms are, they'd be smart enough to avoid dying, ever. You don't hire subordinates that would stab you in the back, after all.

Hmm. All those red definitions involving the word "culprit"... what's the definition of "culprit" in the first place?

Is the culprit the person who plans the murders or the person who carries them out?

Does the mastermind count as the culprit, in other words? Could, say, Battler, the detective, also be the mastermind without violating red text?

These are the sort of questions Battler should be asking.
Knox Rules - one of the people we were introduced HAS to be a culprit. Culprit probably means: a person somehow involved in the murders - including accomplices. Masterminds count as Culprits, but they aren't necessarily murderers (if they don't kill anyone).

And honestly the mastermind being off the island the entire time...that's a really lame twist. Especially since that mastermind wouldn't even be able to communicate with the people working for them, since lines are pretty much all cut off.

Also just because you're smart doesn't mean you might not be caught off guard or even betrayed. You don't know who might stab you in the back ever - even the most loyal of subordinates can be willing to backstab for a particular reason.
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Old 2009-11-15, 19:05   Link #3278
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Knox Rules - one of the people we were introduced HAS to be a culprit. Culprit probably means: a person somehow involved in the murders - including accomplices. Masterminds count as Culprits, but they aren't necessarily murderers (if they don't kill anyone).
Thank you.

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And honestly the mastermind being off the island the entire time...that's a really lame twist. Especially since that mastermind wouldn't even be able to communicate with the people working for them, since lines are pretty much all cut off.
Not if a) Everything is planned out beforehand and b) It's someone personally connected to Battler. Say, Asumu, for example?

The best murder mysteries are the ones that hit really close to home for the protagonist...

I dunno. It's more likely that the mastermind is on the island, and gets killed with all the rest, yeah, but I just don't like the idea that they're dumb enough to get caught in their own plan. Unless they're suicidal.

...The problem, as always, is motive.
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Old 2009-11-15, 19:24   Link #3279
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Again I don't see why we need to doubt Asumu being dead right now. Why would Rudolf and Battler lie about this, especially considering everything that happens after she dies (Rudolf remarries, Battler leaves the family, etc).

Quote:
The best murder mysteries are the ones that hit really close to home for the protagonist...
Which is why Kyrie being the culprit is the best end :|b

Quote:
I dunno. It's more likely that the mastermind is on the island, and gets killed with all the rest, yeah, but I just don't like the idea that they're dumb enough to get caught in their own plan. Unless they're suicidal.
Maybe it is on purpose? Remember the entire sending out the code keys for safes to related family members of various people.

Kyrie mentioned in EP 3 when discussing the letter that the person who sent out the letter is taking a degree of purposeful risk and is acting haughty about it. Maybe the mastermind is on the island and is putting themselves in danger, with the idea of gaining a greater reward.

Besides, as far as motive goes we don't know everything about the family yet.

Spoiler for Higurashi major:
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Old 2009-11-15, 20:29   Link #3280
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Mini-skirt Beato makes sense if she's planning on staking anyone. I, for one, wouldn't find trying to move around quickly in a fancy western dress easy. Hell, anyone ever think the cane might count as a "Spear-like object" if it's got a hidden point?
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