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Old 2013-08-14, 21:28   Link #32781
GreyZone
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Good point, the only (somewhat desperate) answer I have to that is that he was throwing a human side move into her theory. The way Erika treated it was basically that he was trying to force her detective skills to make a deduction, like showing her piece the corpse in-game and trying to force her to acknowledge it. The only reason he can't just throw the red at her (since he can now make them), is I suppose because he is still trying to force a human solution, even if he has reds now.

It is also just possible that Ryu needed a reason to wheel out the gold...
The "presentation of evidence" was probably just along the lines of: "If the game went on, this corpse would have been found by Erika sooner or later." She just didn't, because she stopped the game mid-way.

I think what you say about it being probably nothing more than an excuse to use gold seems very plausible. Renall also said multiple times that the rules were changed in the trial as R07 saw fit and I have to agree with that.
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Old 2013-08-14, 22:19   Link #32782
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You know, after rereading ep 4, I remember now how much I like the character development that Ange goes through. I hope Ryu had some thematically decent reason for taking so much of it back later that I just don't understand...

Maybe the fact of the matter is that it is easy for Ange to say she should have forgiven and loved Eva after she is gone, and hard to actually do it when faced with her as a living person.
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Old 2013-08-15, 16:29   Link #32783
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Well, they are just characters; that's why they can only be human in the Golden Land where there is no such distinction (although there's it's more that everyone is like them than that they are human).
I guess that works, it's just ... especially in light of "onlt the actor can kill the character" and themes of theatricality in EP7, but ...argh, you're convincing me.

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Honestly the Golden Land is kind of disturbing to me on many levels...
Well that's not just the Golden Land, is it? That's just a problem with fluffy-cloud-heaven, in general. I've always had much more of a problem with the idea that all 18 people would be entirely peachy-keen that they were just exploded in the face. All the humans are presented as sorta just "Oh, well, yeah I guess we might be deading up the place. WHAT OF IT."

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Couldn't we also argue that Kanon being there is just a giant boneheaded contrivance or mistake? Yes, the manga still also shows it, but that doesn't make it not a mistake, just a non-corrected mistake.
Possible, but it seems an awfully big mistake considering there are obvious, better alternatives.

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The other possibility is that Ryukishi earnestly believes that if there's no reliable/detective perspective, literally anything can be shown and it's not unfair to Erika, hence why she can have Kanon in the room in front of her piece's eyes and not complain about this later, or why she can separate everyone into two rooms in ep6 and somehow not notice Kanon isn't where she intended him to be.
I'm almost certain this isn't the case. Erika is apparently able to Red Truth verify people her piece witnessed by sight without the Detective's Authority, though it's that same lack that apparently allows the idea of someone being able to hide from her. But she has those Mary Sue abilities in EP5, so it implies that her sight can't be so easily tricked, and you're talking about putting a whole person out of sight for over an entire day of moving around and interviewing and miscellaneous CSI style analysis.

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In this case though, you should ask: Why can Dlanor refuse Battler's red about Kinzo being dead?.
Rule of Drama. It's just as arbitrary as Dlanor being able to seal arguments about the Guesthouse window in EP6.
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Old 2013-08-15, 16:55   Link #32784
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I'm almost certain this isn't the case. Erika is apparently able to Red Truth verify people her piece witnessed by sight without the Detective's Authority, though it's that same lack that apparently allows the idea of someone being able to hide from her. But she has those Mary Sue abilities in EP5, so it implies that her sight can't be so easily tricked, and you're talking about putting a whole person out of sight for over an entire day of moving around and interviewing and miscellaneous CSI style analysis.
I mentioned ep6 here for a reason though. Your argument turns on Kanon having a body in ep5 and you cite the parlor scene for evidence, but an ep6 Shkanon solution necessitates Kanon not have a body distinct from Shannon's, as otherwise it's impossible for him to get out of the cousins' room. Yet to Erika, these situations are fairly similar: Kanon would appear before her in a non-investigatory physical sense when this shouldn't be possible if Shannon is also present.

In the ep6 instance, she sorts people into rooms. Shannon and Kanon are explicitly separated. Somehow, Erika doesn't notice that one of them isn't present, because it shouldn't be possible for both of them to be there at once (unless they both have bodies, and if they do, Beatrice can't use her maneuver later). Assume Shkanon is indeed the case here. How can we reconcile this?
  • Erika did not see Shannon and Kanon at the same time or in very close proximity of time to one another. Somehow, Shkanon maneuvered between rooms and between costumes prior to being sealed into the next room over as Shannon, and Erika never noticed this and not one other person commented on this, considered it odd, or felt inclined to mention it to Erika, and also there was no evidence of them doing so like being wet or part of the room being wet/cold.
  • As above but in such a short period of time that Shkanon has to be a Houdini-level escape and quick-change artist to defy Erika's senses in a matter of moments, all in contradiction of any common sense or natural laws.
  • Erika didn't see Kanon, but the narrative convinced her that she did. Obviously, this is exploitation of her lack of detective authority and would imply that her piece can be blatantly lied to in the narration as long as she lacks such a reliable perspective. In the "true" narrative, Erika simply didn't know Kanon existed or didn't care that he wasn't present, and Shannon was the only person she observed and sealed. Note that any "Kanon was retroactively Shkanoned" argument falls under this basic exception, where instead of being deceived that Kanon was present to sort, the entire narrative was deceived that Kanon existed to be sorted. Either way, Erika saw something that wasn't "true."
  • Erika didn't see Kanon, but thought she knew where he was anyway. Kanon was behind Gohda, again, and she just took somebody's word for it that he was in the cousins' room. She really needs to stop doing that.
  • Erika didn't see Kanon, but assumed his location was assured by the "everyone else" red. However we then have to ask why the narrative we saw (and that, we think, she saw) mentions Kanon being sorted into the cousins' room when in fact that never happened and Erika just retroactively "confirmed" that later with Battler's red. Why wouldn't she have objected to that ahead of time as something her piece did not witness? Unless she can't, then see above and the narrative can simply lie about events even in front of her.
  • Author error. Kanon should not have been described in that manner knowing he was going to be Shkanoned out of the room. Alternately, Beatrice is just hardline interpreting the reds in blatant disregard for the narrative since it's possible for Shkanon to be true under the reds as presented. At best this is incredibly unsporting, at worst this same logic can be applied to get literally anyone out of the cousins' room by simply claiming that in this story there's actually only 5 people using multiple names each. By this logic, Jessica can be Kanon, as long as she's also Kumasawa, and Eva can be Hideyoshi. "All people can only use their own names" doesn't apply if one person has multiple names, and if Beatrice is playing this kind of game there's no reason for this not to be possible for any character, not just Shkanon.
  • Some other explanation I can't think of offhand.
None of these are particularly good answers.
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Old 2013-08-15, 19:22   Link #32785
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I mentioned ep6 here for a reason though. Your argument turns on Kanon having a body in ep5 and you cite the parlor scene for evidence, but an ep6 Shkanon solution necessitates Kanon not have a body distinct from Shannon's, as otherwise it's impossible for him to get out of the cousins' room. Yet to Erika, these situations are fairly similar: Kanon would appear before her in a non-investigatory physical sense when this shouldn't be possible if Shannon is also present.
Yes, EP6 necessitates Shkanon, I wouldn't argue otherwise. However, when are you claiming both Shannon and Kanon appeared before Erika in EP6? The situation is entirely different from Lambda's explicit "everybody here is everybody there is" moment in the parlor in EP5.

And any argument claiming that it's improbably for regular Shkanon to be happening around Erika would be among the same arguments against regular Shkanon anyway, all the way back to EP1; it's not worth talking about for the problem at hand.

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In the ep6 instance, she sorts people into rooms. Shannon and Kanon are explicitly separated. Somehow, Erika doesn't notice that one of them isn't present, because it shouldn't be possible for both of them to be there at once (unless they both have bodies, and if they do, Beatrice can't use her maneuver later).
Erika sorts the people into rooms insomuch that she was the person who suggested it. It's said in the text that Hideyoshi did the actual seperating, while Erika spoke with Kradolf downstairs. Presumably, the husbands switched places even once more, since it's Rudolf who mentions "Jessica wants to stay in the same room as Krauss." At any rate, Erika herself does not personally split the people, according to both the text, and her assertion that she can only verify the people she saw in her own room, not both of them.

From your list of options, I subscribe to :
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[*]Erika didn't see Kanon, but assumed his location was assured by the "everyone else" red. However we then have to ask why the narrative we saw (and that, we think, she saw) mentions Kanon being sorted into the cousins' room when in fact that never happened and Erika just retroactively "confirmed" that later with Battler's red. Why wouldn't she have objected to that ahead of time as something her piece did not witness? Unless she can't, then see above and the narrative can simply lie about events even in front of her.
Except none of the problems you mention are really extant.
  1. Erika herself didn't seperate the group into the rooms
  2. Erika's motives for doing so merely to let herself back to the mansion, and restrict the possible location of the survivor groupees, anyway
  3. She doesn't object to not witnessing the other room because she can reliably reason out that the people in the Guesthouse is X-6 FT victims, where X is the sum of everybody
  4. Erika has no reason to suspect that the number of names would be different from the number of people
  5. Erika's vision in EP6 isn't 100%, anyway, so it's easier for her to confirm certain facts with Red, regardless

So, the narrative lies to Erika when it says "the people were seperated into two rooms" no more than it lied to Battler when it said "Genji and Shannon rushed to alert Kinzo", as far as I see it.

Though my theory does maintain that BATTLER is taking advantage of Erika's mistaken assumptions from playing EP5, which makes him kind of a dick, but ... well, BATTLER IS kinda dickish. And Bern/Erika had many, many chances to seek a classic victory instead of a Logic Error.
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Old 2013-08-15, 19:25   Link #32786
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That is the odd thing about Ep 6, it wasn't a puzzle in one game and a solution in the other.

Ryu, with his own internal rules of how the game works, created the puzzle and the solution all in one episode, therefore surely must have thought about how this trick was going to work. Either we just don't quite understand how the whole narration thing works (probably involves reader theory in that case), he simply didn't care for how that would have to work in real life (which he was usually quite careful with in the first 4 games) or he didn't actually think it through.

I am inclined to go with something about reader theory, like how Erika's piece never did witness Kanon, but when reading that is how she interpreted it. We know it to be reasonably possible, like in ep 5 when Battler argued that though the narration showed him responding to Kinzo's pointing, he never spoke a word to Kinzo and didn't necessarily actually see him.
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Old 2013-08-15, 20:11   Link #32787
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Erika sorts the people into rooms insomuch that she was the person who suggested it. It's said in the text that Hideyoshi did the actual seperating, while Erika spoke with Kradolf downstairs. Presumably, the husbands switched places even once more, since it's Rudolf who mentions "Jessica wants to stay in the same room as Krauss." At any rate, Erika herself does not personally split the people, according to both the text, and her assertion that she can only verify the people she saw in her own room, not both of them.
The text is vague, but conceded. Erika definitely sees everyone in the next room over. I suppose it doesn't actually specify she ever saw who was in the cousins' room, so that accounts for the possibility that lying about Kanon's very existence was part of the deception (but the adults, at least Krauss and Hideyoshi, have to be in on it). The name argument still holds though; it's possible to argue that the cousins' room was empty!

Anyway, there's a bigger problem here that I just noticed: Erika is the one who suggests putting Kanon in the cousins' room. Specifically, she suggests putting Genji and Gohda in the cousins' room as they are biggest threat, and Kanon because he is also male. There doesn't appear to be any logic provided whatsoever for Shannon being separated from Kanon other than that.

So... was that just pure luck? Granted, there are potentially ways Battler could've gotten around it (George refuses to be separated from Shannon, forcing Erika to make him swap places with Kanon, etc.), but it doesn't appear that he had any specific hand in it. Unless he was just banking on Erika separating the men and women... and I'm not sure why. I'm not sure it's "Battler wrote Erika's piece to do this" as Meta-Erika seems to be implying it was her idea. It's not fatal to Genius Battler, but it means he'd have to have done something entirely different to set up the Logic Error solution because it wouldn't have worked without that particular separation.
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Old 2013-08-16, 04:51   Link #32788
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I just noticed something I had completely glossed over last time, in Ep 8's intro (manga), Ange says that she is "caught in this loop with my life at stake" and it shows pics from both ep 4 and 6 versions of her story. I wonder if this means something important (not in terms of her really being in a time loop, but how we are meant to interpret it all)
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Old 2013-08-16, 09:59   Link #32789
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Who would've played the part of Gaap in the 'real' world analogue? Maria interacted with her the same as Ronove (Genji) and Virgilia (Kumasawa); even Sakuturo was present as a stuffed toy. It would have to be someone who's been around as long since Yasu started working on the island, and it would have to be someone Beatrice would have some influence over in 1986.

Perhaps it was Jessica and she knew Beatrice was the real heir having solved the epitaph, which would be a relief to her since she didn't want the succession. Or, if you believe the original Shannon was just a figment, then Gaap may also have no analogue in existence, and was played by Gaap. Or maybe it's some object like Sakuturo that I've overlooked, a doll that stayed in Yasu's possession perhaps.
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Old 2013-08-16, 10:34   Link #32790
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Well, what were the Stakes? We know what their vessels are, but did Maria actually have them around or did she just imagine them? It's not exactly necessary that every magic character conform to an existing person, just that any new person who chooses to play with Maria and Beatrice may need a character to play as.

In other words, Virgilia and Ronove follow Kumasawa and Genji choosing to participate in playing with Maria, not the other way around where Maria or Beatrice has a preassigned role and needs to give it to someone. It would also be easier to make sense of Gaap shifting identities if she weren't based on an actual person; Beatrice could just mention a "friend of hers" and Maria could decide who that friend is.

Granted, Jessica doing it would certainly be interesting, but that raises more questions than it answers.
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Old 2013-08-16, 10:41   Link #32791
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Yeah, it's not strictly necessary, but having a physical analogue would fortify character integrity for Yasu, Beatrice and Maria. It could be Beatrice playing the role, since Gaap originally was Beatrice, but she's already multiple-personality overloaded, and that may be enough to shatter Maria's willing suspension of disbelief (not to mention mine.)

EDIT: Btw, what questions does this raise regarding Jessica? I think there are answers that make Jessica's behavior make more sense as someone who lives in daily proximity to Shannon and Kanon.
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Old 2013-08-16, 11:02   Link #32792
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If Maria can play Sakutarou I don't see why Beatrice can't play Gaap. Or at least talk about her like she's around.

The Jessica thing is mostly if she's aware that Yasu is Beatrice how the hell is she not aware that Yasu is also Kanon, and how does that entire relationship between the two of them color the way everything else would play out between them. If Jessica's palling around with Maria and Yasu and knows about the whole Beatrice thing it solves some issues like her apparent foreknowledge of Kinzo's death, but it makes her relationship with Kanon seem implausible at best and strictly a mutual fantasy at worst.
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Old 2013-08-16, 11:09   Link #32793
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Maria doesn't play Sakuturo -- I thought I already pointed out and you already noticed that there's a vessel for that. If you didn't notice -- Sakuturo only appeared in 1998 after Ange found an identical stuffed animal, and she was also in possession of the stakes.

And who said Jessica wouldn't be aware that Kanon is Beatrice and Shannon? She interacts with them every day, why wouldn't she be? She knows at the very least that some boy strongly resembling Shannon has arrived on the island. If she had some prior attraction to Shannon already, and found her boyish role even more attractive, she would compliment her for it more sincerely. Whether she knew she was the true heir would probably be less of a consideration to her, but she would still show deference to Beatrice for it.
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Old 2013-08-16, 13:07   Link #32794
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Maria doesn't play Sakuturo -- I thought I already pointed out and you already noticed that there's a vessel for that. If you didn't notice -- Sakuturo only appeared in 1998 after Ange found an identical stuffed animal, and she was also in possession of the stakes.

And who said Jessica wouldn't be aware that Kanon is Beatrice and Shannon? She interacts with them every day, why wouldn't she be? She knows at the very least that some boy strongly resembling Shannon has arrived on the island. If she had some prior attraction to Shannon already, and found her boyish role even more attractive, she would compliment her for it more sincerely. Whether she knew she was the true heir would probably be less of a consideration to her, but she would still show deference to Beatrice for it.
Indeed, Isn't it a little odd that Jessica knew about Shannon's relationship to George? George, would presumably be trying to hide the relationship from the family members, etc. So there already was that closeness between Jessica and Shannon.

It wouldn't be odd, in fact very plausible to suggest she knew the truth about Yasu, Beatrice, etc.
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Old 2013-08-16, 13:13   Link #32795
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Maria doesn't play Sakuturo -- I thought I already pointed out and you already noticed that there's a vessel for that. If you didn't notice -- Sakuturo only appeared in 1998 after Ange found an identical stuffed animal, and she was also in possession of the stakes.
The vessel doesn't talk. Maria controls an inanimate object which she pretends is Sakutarou. There's a difference between an object vessel like him who all participants merely acknowledge is a separate character and a person vessel who everyone pretends is a different person, like Genji being the demon Ronove.

The argument is, does Gaap have a vessel, and if she does is it an object or a person? We've never seen any evidence to suggest that Gaap has an object vessel, but that doesn't automatically mean that we must conclude she has a person for a vessel. For example, Gaap could have a conceptual vessel; since she's essentially the notion of pranks and missing objects, it sounds to me more like a running joke among the fantasy participants that whenever something goes missing or some odd thing happens, that it's Beatrice's friend Gaap causing mischief. There's no reason to believe it's anything else unless we have some strong textual evidence that she's associated with a thing or a person specifically.
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And who said Jessica wouldn't be aware that Kanon is Beatrice and Shannon? She interacts with them every day, why wouldn't she be? She knows at the very least that some boy strongly resembling Shannon has arrived on the island. If she had some prior attraction to Shannon already, and found her boyish role even more attractive, she would compliment her for it more sincerely. Whether she knew she was the true heir would probably be less of a consideration to her, but she would still show deference to Beatrice for it.
Would she develop a sincere romantic attraction to her, and Kanon back toward her? Because the conflict between Jessica, Battler, and George is kind of rigged if two are semi-serious and one is just goofing around. It stretches credibility. It's also nonsensical and strange and surely it would concern her as Shannon's friend.

If your argument is "she did know Shannon is Beatrice, but didn't know Shannon is Kanon," it's workable, but it isn't terribly believable. In this situation Jessica would know that her friend is capable of pretending to be somebody else and maybe has even shown up now and then in a costume or disguise. If someone claiming to be close to Shannon (whom Shannon has never mentioned before) suddenly shows up, don't you think she'd be at least a little bit suspicious that it's her prank-playing magic-pretending friend playing a prank on her? Jessica's a bit dense, but she's not stupid.
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Old 2013-08-16, 14:16   Link #32796
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The vessel doesn't talk. Maria controls an inanimate object which she pretends is Sakutarou. There's a difference between an object vessel like him who all participants merely acknowledge is a separate character and a person vessel who everyone pretends is a different person, like Genji being the demon Ronove.
As far as we know, in one consistent history, the vessel is merely a sock puppet. If that were ever in doubt, the fact that some of the lines said by Sakurtaro would be less likely for his demonstrated character than for Maria's demonstrated character would cast it into question. It's still a fact that in any demonstrated consistent histories, the vessel exists.

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The argument is, does Gaap have a vessel, and if she does is it an object or a person? We've never seen any evidence to suggest that Gaap has an object vessel, but that doesn't automatically mean that we must conclude she has a person for a vessel. For example, Gaap could have a conceptual vessel; since she's essentially the notion of pranks and missing objects, it sounds to me more like a running joke among the fantasy participants that whenever something goes missing or some odd thing happens, that it's Beatrice's friend Gaap causing mischief. There's no reason to believe it's anything else unless we have some strong textual evidence that she's associated with a thing or a person specifically.
Maria's interaction with Gaap indicates there is a vessel that she and everyone playing along with her addresses as if it were animate and sapient.

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Would she develop a sincere romantic attraction to her, and Kanon back toward her? Because the conflict between Jessica, Battler, and George is kind of rigged if two are semi-serious and one is just goofing around. It stretches credibility. It's also nonsensical and strange and surely it would concern her as Shannon's friend.
Of course Jessica wasn't serious, she knew Shannon and Kanon were there every day, swapping personalities, saying what she wanted to hear when she wanted to hear it; occasionally saying what she needed to hear when she needed to hear it. Then she realized that George was serious, and that because of his serious intent, he could take SKanon away from her.

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If your argument is "she did know Shannon is Beatrice, but didn't know Shannon is Kanon," it's workable, but it isn't terribly believable. In this situation Jessica would know that her friend is capable of pretending to be somebody else and maybe has even shown up now and then in a costume or disguise. If someone claiming to be close to Shannon (whom Shannon has never mentioned before) suddenly shows up, don't you think she'd be at least a little bit suspicious that it's her prank-playing magic-pretending friend playing a prank on her? Jessica's a bit dense, but she's not stupid.
No, my argument is that she knew Shannon is Kanon, and whether she also knew they were Beatrice is only marginally pertinent. She fell in love with Yasu from the beginning, and played with her. She just didn't seriously realize that until George was there to challenge her for Shannon.

EDIT: Let me retract that a bit; Jessica liked Yasu from the beginning. I don't know when Jessica fell in love with her, but she didn't realize it until George made it a competition for her affection.
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Old 2013-08-16, 14:36   Link #32797
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This is one of those things that "without love, it can't be seen" but put it in perspective:

Jessica was in love with Shannon around the time Jessica needed a guy, and Jessica's council to Shannon on how to get one just made Jessica want one even more.

Yasu is very good at being all things to all people, even herself. She was so irresistible to Jessica that Jessica was as fooled as Jessica wanted to be.

Last edited by DokEnkephalin; 2013-08-16 at 14:39. Reason: let's specify
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Old 2013-08-16, 15:08   Link #32798
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Maria's interaction with Gaap indicates there is a vessel that she and everyone playing along with her addresses as if it were animate and sapient.
The stakes are addressed as if they were sapient, but they demonstrably aren't. There is exhaustive evidence that they are merely objects. That Maria (and Ange) can converse with them doesn't seem to be any sort of problem.

Nevermind that Gaap and Jessica are almost nothing alike: Gaap is sexual and forward, Jessica is nervous and inexperienced; Gaap is fashionable, Jessica actually wants to move out so she can start dressing like a slob; Gaap kicks, Jessica punches. I mean, come on now. Gaap doesn't even make sense as an ideal that Jessica aspires to, because Jessica doesn't aspire to those things. She wants to be independent and act like she wants and maybe have a boyfriend, not be some flashy promiscuous type.

It doesn't seem like a role that would fit her too well.
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Old 2013-08-16, 16:15   Link #32799
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The stakes are addressed as if they were sapient, but they demonstrably aren't. There is exhaustive evidence that they are merely objects. That Maria (and Ange) can converse with them doesn't seem to be any sort of problem.
There is so much exhaustive evidence that stakes and stuffed lions are objects and the one-winged servants are just people that to point it out belabors some points and misses others entirely. You may reject the fantasy characters that they're analogues of; but that fails to dismiss the questions their archetypes ask.

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Nevermind that Gaap and Jessica are almost nothing alike: Gaap is sexual and forward, Jessica is nervous and inexperienced; Gaap is fashionable, Jessica actually wants to move out so she can start dressing like a slob; Gaap kicks, Jessica punches.
Sounds reasonable. So would you insist that they're less alike than Gengi and Ronove?
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Old 2013-08-16, 16:54   Link #32800
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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
There is so much exhaustive evidence that stakes and stuffed lions are objects and the one-winged servants are just people that to point it out belabors some points and misses others entirely. You may reject the fantasy characters that they're analogues of; but that fails to dismiss the questions their archetypes ask.
What the hell does any of that even mean and how does it relate to my refutation of your argument that Gaap must have a human vessel? Because you've presented no actual evidence that demonstrates it, just interpretations or vague hints. The actual evidence of Gaap's origins and nature suggest that she is based on neither a person nor an object. And since Maria and Beatrice are playing pretend, this is not really an obstacle to her ability to participate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
Sounds reasonable. So would you insist that they're less alike than Gengi and Ronove?
There is information in ep6 and some of the manga to suggest that Ronove is closer to the way Genji acts when he's not being serious than you'd think.
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