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Old 2013-08-18, 08:50   Link #32821
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
The knock was specified to 24:00 multiple times on the game board, yes. More specifically, it was specified to 24:00 according to the large clock in the hallway. Also, about an hour beforehand, Shannon and Kanon arrived to serve tea, and multiple characters confirmed that there was no letter in the hallway at that time. Of course, those statements are not in red.

What we do have in red is that It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.
See, I guess here I'm wondering what the word "influence" means. If someone slips a letter through a door shaft, and knocks on the door, both of these things are occurring from the outside.

In other words The letter is a foreign object. It can only come from the outside, if it exists at all. Because it's a foreign object, it doesn't necessarily "influence" anything inside, until it reaches inside the mansion.

In this riddle, the mansion is basically acting like Rokkenjima itself during the 2-days. The mansion is a barrier between the people on the inside and those on the outside. Or, it can be called a closed room.


The barrier only exists to prevent any influence on the inside, it cannot prevent outside influence.

I mean The knock itself confirms my thesis. As well as Lady Lambda's statements denying that anyone on the inside could have made it.

When a person's standing outside of the door, is person "X" not an outside influence? And the only way person "X" can influence the inside, is if he/she is allowed in.

Until then, person "X" is a disturbance, not an influence so it's effective.
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Old 2013-08-18, 09:30   Link #32822
GreyZone
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Read the red again. It clearly says outside the mansion. There is nothing that says "outside the room" or something.

Also, if I remember correctly, in the scene it was shown that they heard the knock a moment before the 24:00 clock signal. The time delay between the knock and the moment the clock hit 24:00 were a very few seconds of time. It stands to argue if a person would have enough time to knock the door and sprint out of the mansion, but WHO exactly could it be? Don't forget the following red truths:

Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games

at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion

At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.

at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive.

It is physically impossible to reach the guesthouse from the door of the dining hall in a few seconds.


So unless you argue that it was actually Erika who did the knock or some absurd theory like that, this is check mate.
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Old 2013-08-18, 09:45   Link #32823
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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
That claim would not be made as easily; its not in either of their character to roleplay with Beatrice at all, much less play a role like Gaap.
It's not in Jessica's character to do that, either, though. It's very contrary to what we're told about her many times in the text, and the implications become very strange. For example, you'd be suggesting that Jessica had a long-standing habit of pranking the servants by stealing their stuff.

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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
The purely conceptual personification makes sense with Knox and Willard, as they're both representatives for the human, mystery side and they were both introduced as pieces from outside the board.
I agree with this.


Spoiler for more Gaap stuff:


... ... why yes, my goat mask is probably in the mail as we speak. XD
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Old 2013-08-18, 10:04   Link #32824
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Yasu considered Gaap to be "Beatrice" at that time. She did NOT see any picture of Castelgoni or "KuwadorianTrice" at that time yet so she gave her some fantasy appearance and outfit. But the legend of "Beatrice" already existed at that time. Later on, of course, she didn't want to give up her second imaginary friend (the first one was Shannon).
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Old 2013-08-18, 10:13   Link #32825
ALPHA-Beatrice
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Read the red again. It clearly says outside the mansion. There is nothing that says "outside the room" or something.

Also, if I remember correctly, in the scene it was shown that they heard the knock a moment before the 24:00 clock signal. The time delay between the knock and the moment the clock hit 24:00 were a very few seconds of time. It stands to argue if a person would have enough time to knock the door and sprint out of the mansion, but WHO exactly could it be? Don't forget the following red truths:

Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games

at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion

At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.

at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive.

It is physically impossible to reach the guesthouse from the door of the dining hall in a few seconds.


So unless you argue that it was actually Erika who did the knock or some absurd theory like that, this is check mate.
Here I thought I presented a strong theory, but yours is clearly more plausible within the realm of the red truth.

I Resign.
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Old 2013-08-18, 11:45   Link #32826
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It's not in Jessica's character to do that, either, though. It's very contrary to what we're told about her many times in the text, and the implications become very strange. For example, you'd be suggesting that Jessica had a long-standing habit of pranking the servants by stealing their stuff.
It's not necessary that she pull the prank, Yasu is shown to be absent-minded enough to lose her own stuff, only that Jessica left the impression by continuing to tease her without denying it, or even knowing Yasu was blaming her. Whether Jessica would later prank someone who's disrespecting this girl she's starting to like isn't as likely as her encouraging Yasu to prank her.

Doing the prank herself would give Yasu her first taste of making someone believe in magic through misdirection and how, with sleight-of-hand and her repertoire of closed-room tricks, it would be possible for her to become a witch herself. And when she told her friend Gaap that she couldn't be Beatrice anymore, Jessica could cheerily reply, "Alright, if you say so!"

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[*]None of this is a problem if Yasu is Gaap's vessel, which she might be
Except for the inevitable speed-bump of comprehension in any interaction with Maria. Swapping characters mid-conversation would be more confusing for anyone, and less likely than for there to be consistent figures to concentrate on. Consider especially when Maria is naming people, identifying them as fantasy counterparts -- would she be able to accept Yasu as Beatrice and name her as Gaap at the same time?

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[*]Gaap was already characterized in Yasu's imagination by the time we first see her in EP7
Her abilities, but not as a personality or presence; those developed through interaction.
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[*]Gaap possesses Yasu's body at one point, and it's a big deal apparently, as opposed to literally all the other times when Gaap apparently doesn't need to possess anybody to snatch away objects
Addressed above. It wouldn't be necessary for Jessica to be present, but also wouldn't be impossible/implausible.
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[*]Like I said also, Beatrice creates Flauros in Our Confessions literally out of a name, brief description, and hot air, even though all of Flauros' actions would have just been Yasu's actions, or narrative shiggles.
I've never read this. It sounds like omake materials; are you sure it's canon?
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Old 2013-08-18, 12:16   Link #32827
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I don't understand why it just can't be as simple as Beatrice telling Maria "Remember to keep track of you toys or Gaap will play pranks and hide them from you" If Gaap's vessel is the concept of things sometimes go missing then as long as someone has the idea they have the vessel.

Also Jessica would never play with Maria with occult things. She describes several times throughout the series that she finds Maria's occult interest creepy.
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Old 2013-08-18, 12:31   Link #32828
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Quote:
I've never read this. It sounds like omake materials; are you sure it's canon?
Yes, it's in Our Confession. Go read it.
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Old 2013-08-19, 08:47   Link #32829
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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
Except for the inevitable speed-bump of comprehension in any interaction with Maria. Swapping characters mid-conversation would be more confusing for anyone, and less likely than for there to be consistent figures to concentrate on. Consider especially when Maria is naming people, identifying them as fantasy counterparts -- would she be able to accept Yasu as Beatrice and name her as Gaap at the same time?
Will outright confirms in ep7 that Maria's recognition of people, at least in the sense of her own fantasy landscape, is based upon action and not appearance. Acting like Beatrice == being Beatrice. By the same logic, if someone acting like Beatrice suddenly starts acting like something else, Maria would associate that as a change to a different character. So to Maria at least it would be trivial to switch from Beatrice to somebody else and back. Everyone else wouldn't care if they're playing along.
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Also going back to that older discussion over stealing the gold, I wouldn't say there is NO evidence that Bice and Kinzo conspired together. It is often talked about how Kinzo and Beatrice had a "contract" together for the gold, and we know from ep 4 that kinzo once chose to kill everyone else to save himself and his beloved. Knowing Bice's characterisation, I feel she wouldn't just be a passive flower awaiting rescue by Kinzo and believing whatever lie he told her about why all her escorts were dead. In fact, we are constantly told that Beatrice offered Kinzo all the gold in exchange for his soul...
Also interesting as an interpretation, yes. Although I'd wonder why Beatrice wanted to do that, unless she just didn't like or didn't trust her countrymen. The other possibility is that she realized nobody knew or expected their submarine to have even survived the journey to Japan, so if it "disappeared" everyone would just take the sub to have been sunk and write off the gold. Knowing this, and finding herself taken with Kinzo, I suppose I could see the idea germinating.

Honestly it makes more sense to be Bice-initiated than Kinzo-initiated. Kinzo describes himself as a man waiting to die and he's obviously captivated by this woman who has suddenly appeared. I don't see why he'd suddenly come up with an idea on his own, but if someone floated the idea he might go along with it on "Well, I have nothing to lose" logic. Success would've reinvigorated his desire, as he now had Beatrice and all the gold.

The problem here is there's no clear evidence of Bice's angle and what she'd get out of all of this if the gold remains in Kinzo's custody. It seems like kind of a shitty situation for her: She's stuck in a foreign country and has to live as the secret mistress of a married man. It doesn't exactly give her much opportunity to spend any of that money.
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Old 2013-08-19, 09:07   Link #32830
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I don't see it being Beatrices idea at all to steal all the gold. If she really did have such a desire for money why didn't she do anything with it? All Beatrice did after the sub is live as Kinzo's mistress for a few years, have a child and die.
Or was it as the fantasy version - she was instantly captured by Kinzo? As in double-crossed by Kinzo and basicly made a slave?
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Old 2013-08-19, 09:10   Link #32831
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The Jessica/Gaap is starting to get stale, so I'm just going to wrap it up here. It would be more interesting to discuss how much Jessica knew about Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice before the conference began.
Spoiler:


I can't give up my suspicion that Rudolph and Kyrie were playing dead in the 1st ep.
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-08-19, 09:13   Link #32832
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@ALPHA: It was a good game.




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The problem here is there's no clear evidence of Bice's angle and what she'd get out of all of this if the gold remains in Kinzo's custody. It seems like kind of a shitty situation for her: She's stuck in a foreign country and has to live as the secret mistress of a married man. It doesn't exactly give her much opportunity to spend any of that money.
It certainly seemed like the allied powers were winning the war. So if they were found on Rokkenjima by the Americans, Fascist-trice would probably be taken into custody and maybe not really treated in the best way, considering her fathers position. Maybe she was afraid of her "escorts" selling her off to the Americans to save their own skins, and/or the Japanease, because they may get the order to follow the Americans' instructions after the capitulation.
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Old 2013-08-19, 10:44   Link #32833
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It certainly seemed like the allied powers were winning the war. So if they were found on Rokkenjima by the Americans, Fascist-trice would probably be taken into custody and maybe not really treated in the best way, considering her fathers position. Maybe she was afraid of her "escorts" selling her off to the Americans to save their own skins, and/or the Japanease, because they may get the order to follow the Americans' instructions after the capitulation.
She's a civilian. They would've just sent her home. Granted, they would also have taken the gold for sure, so maybe she wanted to keep a hold on that... it's just that from what we know of their subsequent relationship, she didn't end up having much control over the gold, so if that was her plan it didn't work.

Unless the plan was that she'd be able to live in the hidden mansion and just never managed to get around to it on account of dying. It'd kind of be the ballsiest thing ever for Kinzo to try to maintain two distinct families on the same island, but whatever. The money would still basically be at Kinzo's discretion as Bice can't publicly exist.

That's the biggest wrench as I see it in her having the idea: She doesn't gain anything. At best she preserves the gold, but then it just ends up lost to her in Kinzo's hands instead of in the hands of the Americans or Japanese.
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It's also possible this is the one killing Beatrice had intended to do herself all along. Remember the hint about getting revenge by killing everyone close to a person first? That's what "the Man from 19 years ago" would do, and it's not a stretch to presume that he'd been terrorizing Natsuhi over the phone in any, or every, instance of the game. In this game, Natsuhi was the one Beatrice wanted revenge on. Speaking to her with this voice in person would've shocked her senseless enough to be easy prey.
So she wants to destroy everything Natsuhi loves, but killing Jessica is out of the question? Why didn't she do that first then?
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Old 2013-08-19, 13:18   Link #32834
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So she wants to destroy everything Natsuhi loves, but killing Jessica is out of the question? Why didn't she do that first then?
She wouldn't while Kanon "lived". After Kanon "died", Natsuhi as an adult with the gun was the greater threat. Jessica was left to die in the bomb with the rest.

The canonicity of "Our Confessions" looks dubious, but maybe I need a more complete translation to come to a conclusion. Flauros is just a discarded sketch, for good reason. Beatrice may have wanted a moe-saturated nekoko to troll Bernkastel with, but didn't have anything to latch it to, nothing to ground it.
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Old 2013-08-19, 15:20   Link #32835
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Our Confession seems as canon as anything else Ryukishi wrote. It's effectively another Gameboard that Beatrice never actually used or presented officially, told from Beato's perspective instead of the Detective's. Flauros probably has no connection to Bernkastel because she and Lambda have no meaningful presence in the gameboards.
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Old 2013-08-19, 18:42   Link #32836
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Same could be said about Flauros -- no meaningful presence on Rokkenjima. I don't see what Lambda would have to do with it -- I only mention Bern because it would've amused Beatrice to tweak her, but didn't have enough basis to keep her.

But the first inconsistency I see in 'Our Confession' is that Beatrice selects the winners to support, which contradicts her roulette intent. She knows all she has to do is throw out the apple of discord, since there's already an abundance of motive to kick off the first twilight.
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Old 2013-08-19, 21:21   Link #32837
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If you wanna wrap up Gaap/discussion, sure, but you're still pretty much advancing a head-canon that very contrary to the text on multiple occasions.

On that note, and on to your next point, at least on the gameboards, Jessica seems to have no idea at all about what's going on with Shkanonigans. Like, at all. In Prime, without going into details, the idea that Jessica knew what was going on with Shkanon is just ... wierd, and has weird implications. It's far more likely that if Kanon ever existed in Prime (and it can certainly be argued that he probs didn't), Jessica barely ever saw him.

Also, while I can't deny a Kyrolf theory for EP1, such a theory DOES involve Kyrie and Rudolf being able to show Battler the inside of their half removed and smashed apart skulls, despite being perfectly alive. So I mean, we know for example that Kyrie's 'corpse' is Kyrie's corpse because of the red you mentioned, and we know that Battler peered into her smashed apart face. Those sorts of things are notoriously difficult to survive.

The reason i mention Flauros and Our Confessions (which is very canon), is that it shows us her PROCESS for making a gameboard. She LITERALLY goes "Hm, I need a fresh magic character to keep things interesting." and MAKES ONE, and isn't overly bothered by deep meaningful vessel correlation, and such. It's not that Flauros was a half-finished draft that she decided not to use because it wasn't "grounded" enough, it's that that entire gameboard is a half-finished draft that ended up not being used. If I were Beatrice, I'd probably just throw in some vague flashbacks of a small wildcat from the forest that would sometimes hang around the mansion, and maybe it gave people the heeby-jeebies because they didn't think any large animals would really survive on their island. "Maybe ... ... ... one of those old Azukishima spirits stole control of the body ... and watched the humans who interloped on it's ancient home ... oooOOOOOooohhhHHHH", and then throw some line or two about how Beatrice was excited to meet a demon she thought the time to meet had passed. I dunno, this isn't very hard.

This isn't very strange considering 1. The multiple references to 'Land' in the series, which was one of the thrown message bottles, but is still irrelevant to the Meta narrative, and 2. In EP7 Clair/Beato admit that they ran through many, many possible scenarios.

Also, who are these "winners" that she's suppporting? She's just lining up accomplices to make super duper sure she can control the flow of events. It's been theorized since forever that that's pretty much what was going on with Evayoshi in EP1, and Rosa in EP2 ; it's very similar, just with Kratsuhi. The only place Our Confessions differs from the "standard" game boards is that the second Twilight is used to remove only one person, so the survivor count at the 10th Twilight is unusually large (7 people, instead of 5)
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Old 2013-08-20, 00:34   Link #32838
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Quote:
Same could be said about Flauros -- no meaningful presence on Rokkenjima. I don't see what Lambda would have to do with it -- I only mention Bern because it would've amused Beatrice to tweak her, but didn't have enough basis to keep her.
Flauros has the same presence on Rokkenjima as all the rest of Beato's demons. THEY'RE IMAGINARY.

Quote:

But the first inconsistency I see in 'Our Confession' is that Beatrice selects the winners to support, which contradicts her roulette intent. She knows all she has to do is throw out the apple of discord, since there's already an abundance of motive to kick off the first twilight.
You realize Beatrice is a lying liar who lies a lot, right? She's been selecting 'winners' the whole time and it's clear to anyone who's reread things. She's in cahoots with Rosa in EP2, for example.
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Old 2013-08-20, 07:31   Link #32839
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I would argue that Beato didn't offer him the gold to keep it, she offered him the gold to get away from her current life. Without it, how would Kinzo build her a mansion and hide her on a secret island? What she gets out of the deal is a way to make her love with Kinzo, who already has a family, a real world thing. Though she may certainly have come to regret moving from the submarine cage to the gilded mansion cage later, she was awfully busy being dead.

All we know about Bice is she hated her life, her father was dead and she probably grew up rich. Her she was, trapped in a future of escorts and running and living on a bunk in a sub. Her country was gone, her world over, and she was a nothing on the run. Then there is Kinzo, with their shared hopes and secrets, and the possibility of a good life again. Take the gold Kinzo, and we can be together.

Though that isn't really the lovey dovey story we were told.


On Gaap: It seems likely to me that some characters have vessels (oh, that soft toy is a vessel for your friend? These stakes are vessels for servants I control!) and some don't (my friend the witch likes to make things disappear).


Also, this is something from goats read seacats I had never considered:
" believe Iíve said before that thereís something so immensely screwed up about building the house where your family lives within the bomb blast radius, while the house where your lover lives is well out of it."

DadOfTheYear
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Old 2013-08-20, 08:17   Link #32840
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If Beatrice seemed more... seductive toward Kinzo, I could buy her using the gold and the whole plot as romantic leverage to win the heart of a married man. Kinzo... probably has to have brought that up at some point, right? He has a wife and children already! What the hell would Bice have thought about that?

If we take that their love was sincere - or at least that Kinzo's was - it sure seems like she did something to ensure that he'd be willing to go to all these lengths for her. Mere emotional blackmail probably wouldn't work too well (if she exposes everything to Kinzo's wife she risks losing the gold). But the story in ep7 merely suggests it's kind of a whirlwind love-at-first-sight kind of thing where they're just perfectly emotionally and intellectually compatible.

The problem is there's not a whole lot else to go on. While it would be interesting if Kinzo were a lovestruck dumbass being manipulated into a scheme by a beautiful woman who is far smarter than he thinks, there's not a whole lot to support that. There's really nothing to get deeper into the whole 1945 event than that one flash in the guts scene and maybe a thematic argument: The massacre in '45 created a "catbox" where the survivors got to write the story, and since Beatrice died soon thereafter it falls to Kinzo to rewrite the whole thing as a tragic noble love story and those Japanese and Italian guys just totally killed each other, you guys, but true love suspiciously conquered all.

It's also possible that if Bice was manipulative we don't know it because Kinzo didn't know it. So his story tells it as true love because that's genuinely how he felt and he was just going along with what she wanted. But again, not much to really back that up that I know of. Might need to go back and look again.
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