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Old 2013-08-23, 16:45   Link #32881
Renall
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Battler's investigation in ep4 suggests a large-caliber weapon was used, akin to a "magnum" round or a shotgun. Range will not make the bullet hole of a large-caliber weapon that much smaller, although it may prevent destruction of the face like the other victims seemed to have. The way Battler describes it, the wound doesn't appear to be all that large; it's at least small enough to overlook at first glance until he examines George closely.

Now, Battler's investigation could have been mistaken. He didn't ever find the gun, after all. But it is a bit odd that George has a relatively small wound in comparison to what appears to have been used on anyone else. But the simplest explanation for that would be two guns, really. George faking it seems incredibly difficult given how he's described.
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Old 2013-08-23, 19:18   Link #32882
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There's an even simplier explanation to EP4. Don't get me wrong, your reasoning makes sense to me, I'm just adding to it.

The winchiester 45 (IIRC the guns in umineko) are compatible with both .45 rifle rounds and 410 shells (essentially low grade shotgun ammunition.

Secondary fire is central to the solution of EP 4.

When I refer to the concept of secondary fire, I refer to the culprit switching between the primary ammo (the rifle ammo) and the secondary fire (the 410 shells).

Therefore, George's death was done with the "rifle mode" at a relatively long range. The 1st twilight was done with the 410 shells.

Come to think of it, the naming of the Chiester Sisters may have actually been foreshadowing the solution to EP4. Another thing of note is that the way the guns are drawn is actually much closer to the real thing than one would think. They look more like the carbine model than the traditional model.
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Old 2013-08-23, 21:34   Link #32883
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I've been wondering if it's possible that, at the start of the game, Yasu make sure everyone minus Battler will be her accomplice hiring them separately, then, according to how things go kills off the unncessary accomplices.

I'll explain myself better. We know that in her planning Yasu takes into consideration that things might not go as she originally planned, for example in EP 1 Natsuhi had a scorpion charm on her door, in EP 2 Jessica might not have left the group and so on.

Beatrice herself said that:
Quote:
"......I formed my plan with great care and constructed several alternatives. I envisioned all of the actions you might take from tonight and through tomorrow...and prepared a mystery to deal with each of those. .........I'm afraid I cannot reveal those at this point, but it really was a tightly-knit set of pleasant closed room murders."
The best way to do so would be to have everyone as accomplice right from the beginning.

We know she hired Kumasawa and Gohda telling them it was a joke and offering them money (Our confession).

About the adults she could have hired all of them but not at the same time but hiring each couple separately.
We know from EP 8 manga version she tattled things out to them about Kinzo and Krauss but it's possible she contacted them separately. In Ep 5 we see Hideyoshi suggested Kinzo had already passed away... while Rudolf knows about his financial problems.

Let's assume it was Yasu who contacted Hideyoshi giving him that info without revealing her identity and promising him money in exchange for his cooperation as long as he keeps the fact she is the one who told this to him for himself and Eva, although he's free to share the info with the other siblings.
Then she does the same with Rudolf.
Rosa might have been blackmailed by mentioning Beatrice's death.
We know she might have decided to blackmail Krauss and Natsuhi together (Our confession) or separately (Ep 5).

Anyway we've all the siblings willing to help Yasu without knowing they're all in. Then she might decide to reveal to them all the truth or just to some. Ep 4 & 2 might have them all knowing she's willing to give them the gold if they'll do something for her while Ep 1, 3 & 5 might have the siblings still bribed but unaware they're all under her orders.

In this way if she's forced to change the plan and needs to off an accomplice she'll have another ready.

Maria is likely in as she believes/want to believe in Beatrice and the golden land. Though maybe deep down she thinks it's just a game and Beato is using tricks to make them look dead... which might explain Ep 3. In it Yasu thought to kill only Beatrice and that Maria will side with her (Our confession tells us dividing the two who're close doesn't necessarily mean to kill them) but something clicks in Maria as she sees her mother is dead and she refuses to play their witch game any longer forcing Beato to kill her as well (I've the feeling that Maria isn't that dumb/pure, she just wants to believe so much she deceive herself so well she believes in her own deception).

Jessica and George can be in if they're tricked into believing it's a game, which likely would explain Jessica's phone call in Ep 4 or them playing dead in Ep 5.

Funny enough the harder to get involved are Nanjo and Genji.

Nanjo is a doctor. While all the others can believe that it's all a game and the dead ones are merely playing dead very well thanks to a good make up Nanjo should realize people is dead for real and they're not fake corpses or people pretending to be dead which should either scare him into understanding it's not just a game or made him say something along the line of 'we've to stop the game because this guy died for real'.

A good option can be that Yasu bought him by promising him money to save his grandaughter. Theoretically she could have also blackmailed him using the fact he helped Beatrice Castiglioni, or how he was an accomplice in the Kuwadorian Beatrice matter or how he hid Kinzo's death. Even both might work: do what I say and I help you, don't and I'll ruin you. Still he would have a great advantage compared to the siblings as he would know Yasu is behind this.

The last is Genji. He doesn't seem the type that would sell himself for money. He should have affection for Kinzo's children and grandchildren. He tried to save Yasu from having the same destiny as her mother sort of defying Kinzo to protect Yasu and now... he's willing to let her kill everyone? Did he believe it was all a game? Somehow the more the game progresses the harder it seems to do it and Genji lived quite a bit in Ep 1 & 3. But maybe yes, he decided he wanted to believe Yasu it was all a game.

Also, about Beatrice Castiglioni.
The fantasy narrative in Ep 3 insists that Beatrice felt flattered by Kinzo's feelings for her but never loved him and so he trapped her using his power and in hope to be released killed herself. This seems to suggest the first Beatrice never loved Kinzo but ended up trapped by him.

Maybe when Kinzo planned to have the Japanese and the Italians go against each other it's possible Beatrice had been sort of an accomplice (the narrative said she garanted him the gold) as she was worried her countrymen would take for themselves the gold same as Kinzo's countrymen wanted to do so she might have turned to him for help maybe thinking he'll do something to stop them.

I'm not sure she planned to have things get that far and for herself to become Kinzo's hidden lover as the whole situation is way more beneficial for Kinzo than for her, exhiled in a foreign land with people talking a foreign language, tied to a man who's already married and that doesn't plan to ask divorce to marry her, not even later on when she'll be pregnant and that's using the gold for his own purposes.

Also I wonder if Kinzo really planned to die physically. He said he wanted to cut his strings and that there was a gap between him as Ushimorimya head and his mind. Can it be he wanted to kill just Kinzo the Ushiromiya head and not himself.

Maybe he planned to be sent to the frontlines and escape or let others think he was dead but his plan didn't work as he ended up on Rokkenjima. Which would explain much more easily why he would want the Italian gold so to get back in control of his own life.
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Old 2013-08-24, 01:46   Link #32884
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I still think you could take out Kratsuhi in EP3 by sheer sleeplessness. None of the adults slept at all over the course of EP3. It's not so much that they were killed at all, but that they were killed without a ruckus.

Also, while I kind of dislike it, Our Confessions openly says that Yasu also has a pistol at their disposal, though the only suggestions of this in the gameboards, proper, are the fact that there are consistently two type of "probably shot" wounds. I would personally argue that having two seperate guns is kind of a hassle, but carrying multiple types of ammo for the same gun feels ... I'unno, even sillier. The pistol has the benefit of being much easier to conceal, probably holds more rounds, and as implied by EP7, at least for an amateur, it's semi-automatic action would be simpler to handle than the WInchester's lever action loading.

About Nanjo, well, he's probably going into it thinking it's a prank of some sort, but similar to Kratsuhi in OC, is just threatened with the actual violence of the bomb once the storm has started. There is no way he's being fooled when people are really dead, and he's still lying about it, after all.

Last edited by Kealym; 2013-08-24 at 16:03. Reason: Whoops, I mean Nanjo probs thought he was doing a prank before going in! Not going into a bomb.
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Old 2013-08-24, 10:22   Link #32885
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post

I would personally argue that having two seperate guns is kind of a hassle, but carrying multiple types of ammo for the same gun feels ... I'unno, even sillier. The pistol has the benefit of being much easier to conceal, probably holds more rounds, and as implied by EP7, at least for an amateur, it's semi-automatic action would be simpler to handle than the WInchester's lever action loading.
I disagree. Having multiple types of ammo around is more common that one would think. It usually happens with rifles with the user carrying FMJ (full metal jacket) and AP (armor piercing) rounds.

I do acknowledge the existance of a pistol though. Its just that I don't think its usage in EP4 2nd twilight is very likely given the situation. I also think the pistol was most likely some form of revolver rather than something like a glock. However, EP4 seems to be an outlier case.

Usage of a "shotgun" only truly comes into play in EP4 and maybe once in EP2 for the 1st twilight. A shotgun being involved is probably the simpliest way to explain the wounds (the manga depicts them in such a way that it seems the most likely, but there was probably some form of sedative involvement.

I should point out that EP4 brings up a major inconsistency with the Yasu culprit theory when you compare Shannon's death in EP4 vs EP2. Both are supposedly a suicide involving a point blank range pistol shot. EP4 shows what's to be expected, an exit wound in the back of her head. Why then in EP2 does the same gun at the same range targeting the same point generate a vastly different wound profile (i.e. no signs of an exit wound in the back of Shannon's head)? Very jarring when one considers this:

The foresenics definition of "point blank range" is any shot fired at less than 3 feet away. This is due to any difference in the wound profile being neglible at best within any point within that range.
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Last edited by magnum12; 2013-08-24 at 12:51.
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Old 2013-08-24, 15:13   Link #32886
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First of all we should consider if Ryu has any kind of knowledge in guns. If OC said that Yasu also has a pistol, okay, but I can easily see different kind of wounds explained by Ryu simply not thinking about subject at all. Maybe the size of the exit wound etc etc never played important factor in the story, I myself haven't even considered this possibility, as I believed that any "hole" in a body can be written of as a gunshot.

But there are also other explanation for the variable sizes of the gunholes, like for example passage of the bullet inside the corpse. If the bullet contacts any major bone inside the body, the bullet usually shatters and results in much larger exit wound. If the shot is "clean" the gunshot wound can be relatively small.

We should also remember that range affects the gunshot wound, as shockwave from the muzzle and impacting bullet can also damage tissue and result in larger wound, but I'm pretty sure these factors are not considered as distance between targets is usually relatively small and stopping force is probably considered same in every shot.

Quote:
I should point out that EP4 brings up a major inconsistency with the Yasu culprit theory when you compare Shannon's death in EP4 vs EP2. Both are supposedly a suicide involving a point blank range pistol shot. EP4 shows what's to be expected, an exit wound in the back of her head. Why then in EP2 does the same gun at the same range targeting the same point generate a vastly different wound profile (i.e. no signs of an exit wound in the back of Shannon's head)?
M-maybe the iconic shannonhat slumped over the wound?

Quote:
About Nanjo, well, he's probably going into it thinking it's a bomb, but similar to Kratsuhi in OC, is just threatened with the actual violence of the bomb once the storm has started. There is no way he's being fooled when people are really dead, and he's still lying about it, after all.
Has anyone thought that maybe Nanjo just sucks at being a doctor? Who he did ever save?

Last edited by Dormin; 2013-08-24 at 15:32.
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Old 2013-08-24, 16:36   Link #32887
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Has anyone thought that maybe Nanjo just sucks at being a doctor? Who he did ever save?
Well, there was Beatrice...oh, wait, he didn't. He saved Yasu, sort of, but not so much hir sexuality. Then again, that might have been a congenital condition; Lion's gender is left conspicuously vague, and I can't imagine any injury even from a near fatal impact causing permanent genital deformity.

My problem with a Yasu culprit scenarios is, even more than the perversion of Knox's 1st and Van Dine's 11th, is the 'whydunnit'. The motive for this scale of murder is so batshit insane that it lacks credibility, and you may has well replace her with a Fu Manchu twisting Chinaman. At least with the siblings you've got financial desperation, a history of resentments, competitiveness and a certainty that everyone else would do unto others what they don't do to them first, but it's the knowledge of a bomb that could cover their tracks that really liberates them to do it. Yasu isn't greedy or needy, doesn't have a personal grudge against anyone except Battler, who slighted her by betraying her expectations when he was young, rash and melodramatic.
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Old 2013-08-24, 16:53   Link #32888
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more than the perversion of Knox's 1st and Van Dine's 11th
I don't know, I really don't... If we take it that Yasu is Shkannontrice then the culprit is actually mentioned, but the trick only is crossdressing. Therefore "Yasu" is not a new, unmentioned character. I don't know if this is in clear violation with the Knox's 1st. I guess it is a matter of interpretation.

Van Dine's 11th:
Quote:
“11. Servants—such as butlers, footmen, valets, game-keepers, cooks, and the like—must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. It is unsatisfactory, and makes the reader feel that his time has been wasted. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person—one that wouldn’t ordinarily come under suspicion; for if the crime was the sordid work of a menial, the author would have had no business to embalm it in book-form.”
I always thought that this should be viewed not literally, but as a "culprit cannot be anyone that is obvious", and the part "servant cannot be the culprit" is just a joke because "the butler did it" has become sort of a cliche.

But yes, Yasumotives are on bit shaky ground. In the end there are many factors and flaws that make make at least me consider the possibility that she never planned on killing anyone. But then again, the line between boards and prime should be noted and how this affects Yasu as "culprit".
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Old 2013-08-24, 17:03   Link #32889
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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
Well, there was Beatrice...oh, wait, he didn't. He saved Yasu, sort of, but not so much hir sexuality. Then again, that might have been a congenital condition; Lion's gender is left conspicuously vague, and I can't imagine any injury even from a near fatal impact causing permanent genital deformity.

My problem with a Yasu culprit scenarios is, even more than the perversion of Knox's 1st and Van Dine's 11th, is the 'whydunnit'. The motive for this scale of murder is so batshit insane that it lacks credibility, and you may has well replace her with a Fu Manchu twisting Chinaman. At least with the siblings you've got financial desperation, a history of resentments, competitiveness and a certainty that everyone else would do unto others what they don't do to them first, but it's the knowledge of a bomb that could cover their tracks that really liberates them to do it. Yasu isn't greedy or needy, doesn't have a personal grudge against anyone except Battler, who slighted her by betraying her expectations when he was young, rash and melodramatic.
Actually it can very well be that the Yasu of the gameboard isn't that kind.
In creating PieceYasu PrimeYasu pushed on her all her angry feelings toward... well, everyone.
Let's think at the scene in which Maria kills Rosa multiple times in horrible ways. At the moment Maria is furious at Rosa so in her fantasy she does so... although I think in the real world she would be more prone to protect Rosa, not kill her.
In the same way PieceYasu might be just Yasu's anger acting.
It's pretty easy to kill someone in a fantasy scene so as long as the Yasu culprit theory work only in tales we can accept an interpretation of Yasu with no problems in killing.
It'll be different though if Yasu is/was trying to be culprit in Prime as well in the same gruesome way she is in the gameboard.

For it to be believable we need to assume Yasu's representation in Ep 7 is terribly biased. Which can be (Kinzo's representation was biased after all) but if that's true it destroy any chance to feel sympathetic toward her.
She became a manipulative liar who first tried to trick others into taking part to her Beatrice cult, then tried to seduce George when she failed to have Battler and when she realized after all she still wanted Battler or simply couldn't deal with the insult of Battler forgetting them blackmailed, tricked and used everyone to get her revenge in the worst possible way.
It became a little hard to like her if that's the truth about her.
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Old 2013-08-24, 17:44   Link #32890
magnum12
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
First of all we should consider if Ryu has any kind of knowledge in guns. If OC said that Yasu also has a pistol, okay, but I can easily see different kind of wounds explained by Ryu simply not thinking about subject at all. Maybe the size of the exit wound etc etc never played important factor in the story, I myself haven't even considered this possibility, as I believed that any "hole" in a body can be written of as a gunshot.

But there are also other explanation for the variable sizes of the gunholes, like for example passage of the bullet inside the corpse. If the bullet contacts any major bone inside the body, the bullet usually shatters and results in much larger exit wound. If the shot is "clean" the gunshot wound can be relatively small.

M-maybe the iconic shannonhat slumped over the wound?
The first one I find hard to swallow because Ryu seems to be an author that does his research well. Heck, with Higurashi,
Spoiler for Higurashi spoilers:
I found to be a really entertaining solution because its an extremely plausible solution when analyzed scientifically. Barring minor creative liberties, it really showed that Ryu did his homework on the subject matter. I've actually established a theory as to the actual
Spoiler for higurashi spoilers:
. Considering that my field of study is related to this, its double reason to be intrigued.

Due to how he does his research, I find it rather hard to beleive that R7 would make such a critical research flub in a genre where accuracy is pretty important. I do know from an interview that R7 said that Yasu doesn't know anything about guns. This actually throws another hole into the Yasu culprit theory as it relates to EP4. I find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't know anything about guns would know about a gun being compatible with multiple types of ammo. This also brings into question Yasu's actual competence with a firearm. Normally this is a moot point due to short range, but it's really important when it relates to the 2nd twilight, where the most plausible solution given circumstances seems to be a long range shot in bad weather.

The second and 4th point are actually related to my major grievance with the Yasu theory in terms of the inconsistency with Shannon's deaths. Since we can reasonably assume that the angle of the shot, the range of the shot (obviously point blank), the type of gun used (a pistol as per OC), and the type of ammo used are the same, the wound should be identical in every way. The Shannon hat is actually pretty strong evidence that there is an inconsistency in regards to the bullet piercing Shannon's head. If it truly penetrated Shannon's head (which it most certainly should given the circumstances are identical to the death in EP4) and if the hat was in a "slumped" angle, why isn't there a hole in the hat nor is a there a big blood stain on the back side of the hat (based on the manga version)?

Changing topic to Kinzo's depiction, I'd say the EP7 depiction of Kinzo as a disgusting rapist monster is dead on. Evidence for this being true comes from precident sent in EP5 with just how low his method of "obtaining" Natsui stooped. This sets a precedent for the question of whether Kinzo's heart is worthy of being understood. I'd argue no, it isn't, by sole virtue of him being a rapist and how he seemed to enjoy treating Natsui like garbage.
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Old 2013-08-24, 18:50   Link #32891
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
I don't know, I really don't... If we take it that Yasu is Shkannontrice then the culprit is actually mentioned, but the trick only is crossdressing. Therefore "Yasu" is not a new, unmentioned character. I don't know if this is in clear violation with the Knox's 1st. I guess it is a matter of interpretation.
I agree it's more interpretive than clear-cut. If Red declarations identify Shannon and Kanon as distinctly unique existences, then Beatrice and Yasu would also have to be considered as such. Now Shannon and Kanon fall under the VD's 11th, Yasu falls under Knox 1st, and the only question is whether Beatrice can get a pass. However, if they're all considered to be one character, then it's certainly a violation of Knox 10th.

Quote:
Van Dine's 11th:


I always thought that this should be viewed not literally, but as a "culprit cannot be anyone that is obvious", and the part "servant cannot be the culprit" is just a joke because "the butler did it" has become sort of a cliche.
I'm just going by the revised version Willard had cited in Red (Rule #11. It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!,) since they obviously don't all apply, and even Will points that out by citing one without the Red (but still makes a kill with it! Ill gotten gains!) One of R07's critiques of Van Dine was that it was outdated, but it was so full of critical response to contemporary examples that it couldn't possibly stand the test of time -- these rules are so short-sighted, narrow-minded and redundant it just looks like his personal bitch list. But there's a reason some of them were given in Red (I put Will's citations at the end of this page: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Van_Dine%27s_Commandments)

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For it to be believable we need to assume Yasu's representation in Ep 7 is terribly biased. Which can be (Kinzo's representation was biased after all) but if that's true it destroy any chance to feel sympathetic toward her.
But whose bias would it be? It's not an adversarial board here, Bernkastel is effectively Auau's reader, and has effectively passed that job on to Willard, giving him omniscient authority for the story. Bernkastel has no interest in painting Beatrice as sympathetic (though of course her late show for Ange and Lion is definitely heavily biased.) Willard may want to believe the motive is in the heart, but he's not as naive a sucker as Battler, and will analyze more objectively to seek out contradictions. And Claire is just a mouthpiece for a handful of characters who share one body.
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Old 2013-08-24, 19:24   Link #32892
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Quote:
One of R07's critiques of Van Dine was that...
Excuse me, back up a second. When did Ryukishi say any of these things? It seems like you're just inferring all of this yourself. This isn't something Ryukishi can be claimed to think.

Quote:
But whose bias would it be? It's not an adversarial board here, Bernkastel is effectively Auau's reader, and has effectively passed that job on to Willard, giving him omniscient authority for the story. Bernkastel has no interest in painting Beatrice as sympathetic (though of course her late show for Ange and Lion is definitely heavily biased.) Willard may want to believe the motive is in the heart, but he's not as naive a sucker as Battler, and will analyze more objectively to seek out contradictions. And Claire is just a mouthpiece for a handful of characters who share one body.
Uh...I think you answered your own question here. Claire is telling the story. Claire is channeling Yasu's memories, sentiments, and emotions.
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Old 2013-08-24, 19:39   Link #32893
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Returning to the topic of guns, has anyone ever addressed the issue of actual sound of a gunshot?

The scale of the island (like between mansion and guesthouse) hasn't been properly addressed iirc, but the sound of gunshot is really, really loud. At least everyone in the same building should be able to hear a clear bang, and it would probably carry much further.

Aside from that, the thought of anyone actually firing a gun indoors without any protective equipment like earplugs is also kinda wild thought, though not impossible in any way. I guess they could identify the culprit by checking which person has trouble hearing because damaged ears.

Maybe the culprit was actually an ex spec-ops soldier and synchronized timing of the gunshots with the distant thunder.
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Old 2013-08-24, 20:37   Link #32894
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I actually have a theory (backed up by science) that answers the bulk of those questions.

The culprit is using a supressor for most of the murders.

As for the science to back it up:

The decible rating for a thunder storm is 120 dB, about 10 dB short of the pain threshold for loudness in humans.

The noise rating for a rifle can be anywhere between 140 and 170 dB. This is louder than a pistol.

Suppressors lower the dB of a gunshot by about 30-40 dB not to mention altering the noise profile of the shot.

The sound emited by rifle fire is low frequency. It is also of a lower frequency than pistol and shotgun fire.

That last one is pretty important since low frequency sound waves are much more effective at punching through most systems anad methods of sound dampening. Now for the kicker.

Suppressors that are compatible with Winchiesters exist.

Of course I'm making the assumption that the island is not that far away from the storm so its going to be pretty loud outside. Still, this is further evidence of Yasu being incompetent with fire arms if she doesn't take the noise of the gun into account when doing all of this stuff. Unless this is supposed to be some "truth hidden in the boards" style warning about Prime's culprit being someone who IS competent with fire arms.
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Old 2013-08-24, 20:47   Link #32895
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In EP6 Kanon was having a flashback about Kinzo showing him how to use firearms, even letting him use them for test shots, if I remember correctly.
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Old 2013-08-24, 21:08   Link #32896
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In EP6 Kanon was having a flashback about Kinzo showing him how to use firearms, even letting him use them for test shots, if I remember correctly.
I think I remember Kanon also thinking/saying something about how Shannon is better with firearms than he is. Can't remember exactly when.

On a different issue, I've been wondering about something. Do people here think that Kinzo knew about Yasu at the time when he had the epitaph set up? I was looking around on a blog that was talking about the series, and it seemed to assume that the reason Kinzo left the epitaph open for anybody to try was because he knew Yasu was alive and on the island.

(The argument was, I think, that Kinzo's sexism is such that had Lion been born female, he would not have let her be a candidate for the headship - as he certainly didn't do that with Beatrice 2. But that with Lion/Yasu being born male, and Kinzo knowing about the not being dead thing, he could make the epitaph open to anyone, believing it would go to Yasu.)
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Old 2013-08-24, 21:18   Link #32897
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Changing topic to Kinzo's depiction, I'd say the EP7 depiction of Kinzo as a disgusting rapist monster is dead on. Evidence for this being true comes from precident sent in EP5 with just how low his method of "obtaining" Natsui stooped. This sets a precedent for the question of whether Kinzo's heart is worthy of being understood. I'd argue no, it isn't, by sole virtue of him being a rapist and how he seemed to enjoy treating Natsui like garbage.
Honestly I don't really get Kinzo's depiction in Ep 7.
I mean the episode first seems to imply Kinzo raped his daughter then everyone is more or less cool with it?
Okay, so Genji isn't exactly cool but the general stance is: don't judge Kinzo harshly it was so hard for him to resist but he tried...
Even Beatrice's behaviour on the matter are glossed over.
Was she raped as she said no but Kinzo didn't listen her or did she says yes out of obligation leading Kinzo to delude himself she was cool with it?
In the end it seems she wasn't so cool with it but again the whole issue is taken rather lightly.
Sure, Kinzo has a position of power but still...

(and I'll never understand Genji's plan. He's afraid Yasu will end like her mother so he hid her under another name and then... get her back on Rokkenjima because he hopes Kinzo will recognize her/bond with her or something. Because a man who jumped on his daughter would hesitate to jump on a female servant that might look like her. Yeah, a female servant is definitely off limits for Kinzo. Nothing like a daughter or a male grandchild with genital troubles. And yes, Yasu's life is totally better now that she's forced to work as a servant at such a young age under a mistress who doesn't want her around and with coworkers who're envious of the fact she gets a single room. Absolutely better. It couldn't be any cooler if she had remained in the orphanage and had gotten adopted...)

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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
I'm just going by the revised version Willard had cited in Red (Rule #11. It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!,) since they obviously don't all apply, and even Will points that out by citing one without the Red (but still makes a kill with it! Ill gotten gains!) One of R07's critiques of Van Dine was that it was outdated, but it was so full of critical response to contemporary examples that it couldn't possibly stand the test of time -- these rules are so short-sighted, narrow-minded and redundant it just looks like his personal bitch list. But there's a reason some of them were given in Red (I put Will's citations at the end of this page: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Van_Dine%27s_Commandments)
Well the no servant culprit rule hadit's role back then.
Not only the servant culprit was cliche like the dog remaining silent because the culprit was a family member but some considered it a little classist.
In other words it makes things look like as the lords, masters, higher ups would be good guys while the servants would be the ones who would commit crimes against the oh so noble lords.
It reminds me of when the doctor in 10 little indians claims he can't be the culprit because he's an important, respectable person.

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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
But whose bias would it be? It's not an adversarial board here, Bernkastel is effectively Auau's reader, and has effectively passed that job on to Willard, giving him omniscient authority for the story. Bernkastel has no interest in painting Beatrice as sympathetic (though of course her late show for Ange and Lion is definitely heavily biased.) Willard may want to believe the motive is in the heart, but he's not as naive a sucker as Battler, and will analyze more objectively to seek out contradictions. And Claire is just a mouthpiece for a handful of characters who share one body.
Well the narrative of Yasu's life is from Yasu's point of view. It doesn't show scenes unfavourable to Yasu When Yasu prank a servant it's all Beatrice's fault. Shannon tells Yasu she's special. It's not Yasu's fault is she loses things, it's Beatrice. The other servants were definitely mean and should have been more tolerant with her even if she put them in trouble (the shared responsibility thing). Yasu will be totally cool in accepting Kinzo, will not want the gold or the leadership of the family (red later on will reveal she wasn't so cool with the whole story and we know she used Kinzo's money and her authority on the servants).

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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
Returning to the topic of guns, has anyone ever addressed the issue of actual sound of a gunshot?

The scale of the island (like between mansion and guesthouse) hasn't been properly addressed iirc, but the sound of gunshot is really, really loud. At least everyone in the same building should be able to hear a clear bang, and it would probably carry much further.

Aside from that, the thought of anyone actually firing a gun indoors without any protective equipment like earplugs is also kinda wild thought, though not impossible in any way. I guess they could identify the culprit by checking which person has trouble hearing because damaged ears.

Maybe the culprit was actually an ex spec-ops soldier and synchronized timing of the gunshots with the distant thunder.
Well, if it was thundering a lot people might not bother to notice that the gunshot doesn't match with the lightning so it can't be a thunder. Though the house seems to be mostly soundproof because people basically hear nothing.

LOL, it'll be fun if the solution to Erika hears nothing from Battler's room was: the room is soundproof and in order to let Erika hear him screaming Battler had to open the window or the door. Everything else that happened while the door/window was close couldn't be heard by Erika.

Though likely Yasu used some trick to silence the gun.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I think I remember Kanon also thinking/saying something about how Shannon is better with firearms than he is. Can't remember exactly when.

On a different issue, I've been wondering about something. Do people here think that Kinzo knew about Yasu at the time when he had the epitaph set up? I was looking around on a blog that was talking about the series, and it seemed to assume that the reason Kinzo left the epitaph open for anybody to try was because he knew Yasu was alive and on the island.

(The argument was, I think, that Kinzo's sexism is such that had Lion been born female, he would not have let her be a candidate for the headship - as he certainly didn't do that with Beatrice 2. But that with Lion/Yasu being born male, and Kinzo knowing about the not being dead thing, he could make the epitaph open to anyone, believing it would go to Yasu.)
It seems Kinzo had suspicions although I've no idea if he though Shannon or Kanon were Lion.
Sure thing it was rather suspicious for Genji to hire such a young servant... but maybe Kinzo couldn't just wrap his mind over his grandson/son being now a grandaughter/daughter so he suspected Genji was hiding something but never figured out Lion was there.
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Old 2013-08-24, 21:33   Link #32898
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I think I remember Kanon also thinking/saying something about how Shannon is better with firearms than he is. Can't remember exactly when.

On a different issue, I've been wondering about something. Do people here think that Kinzo knew about Yasu at the time when he had the epitaph set up? I was looking around on a blog that was talking about the series, and it seemed to assume that the reason Kinzo left the epitaph open for anybody to try was because he knew Yasu was alive and on the island.

(The argument was, I think, that Kinzo's sexism is such that had Lion been born female, he would not have let her be a candidate for the headship - as he certainly didn't do that with Beatrice 2. But that with Lion/Yasu being born male, and Kinzo knowing about the not being dead thing, he could make the epitaph open to anyone, believing it would go to Yasu.)
The way Kinzo was reacting, saying that "Beatrice is still trying to resist him" after hearing from Natsuhi that the child fell down, is an indication that the child may not have been male. Maybe he was trying to use a different approach after he saw that the way he tried to raise Beatrice 2 had failed.



And here is the extract from the EP6 script showing that Yasu had contact with guns (unless you suppose it was a lie for some reason):


`Then, the doors to the kitchen and the dining hall came into sight...`\

`All of it brings back fond memories.`\

`......There was the honor and rigidity of serving Kinzo directly.`@
`However, that man wasn't rigid all the time.`@
`......When the family was out of sight and he didn't have to preserve that air of majesty,`@` his face could turn unbelievably childish, and he would sometimes ask me to take part in strange pranks.`\

`.........The Master let me shoot lots of guns, didn't he...`@



This may also be an indication for "Kinzo wasn't such a bad guy all the time" Heck, EP6 has so many clues about things that are only revealed at EP8, it is almost funny.
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Old 2013-08-24, 21:44   Link #32899
DokEnkephalin
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Excuse me, back up a second. When did Ryukishi say any of these things? It seems like you're just inferring all of this yourself. This isn't something Ryukishi can be claimed to think.
Willard's character was a clear critique of Van Dine, someone who knew and applied the rules but became disillusioned with them. He himself made a self-deprecating acknowledgement that the rules were 'considered' outdated, and didn't care to make any defense against that. The TIPS for SSVD: "Many say that they do not keep up with the times, but they are also highly praised by some for continuing to preserve the basis of the law's spirit to this very day." That's a pretty back-handed endorsement to say that 'some' value these rules without demonstrating any reason what value they have.

Maybe I was unclear in that line, but I only attribute to R07 a critical view of Van Dine -- the specific reasons I detailed are my own, and I didn't intend to put them in R07's mouth.
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Old 2013-08-25, 00:42   Link #32900
Sauzer
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
Returning to the topic of guns, has anyone ever addressed the issue of actual sound of a gunshot?

The scale of the island (like between mansion and guesthouse) hasn't been properly addressed iirc, but the sound of gunshot is really, really loud. At least everyone in the same building should be able to hear a clear bang, and it would probably carry much further.

Aside from that, the thought of anyone actually firing a gun indoors without any protective equipment like earplugs is also kinda wild thought, though not impossible in any way. I guess they could identify the culprit by checking which person has trouble hearing because damaged ears.

Maybe the culprit was actually an ex spec-ops soldier and synchronized timing of the gunshots with the distant thunder.
This is from "Our confession".
Spoiler for Our confession:


Now Im no gun expert but here's a sound of one rifle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mbaO7qLzS8. And that's what I imagine when I think rifle fire.
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